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I think other chapters can do a lot of those mechanised armies better. A good Dark Angels green wing army would do things that Ultramarines can't, like the Dark Shroud's -1 to hit bubble and Azreal's 4++ field bubble. These both work on all nearby Dark Angels. Both of them pair well with dreadnaughts (check Forgeworld), Razorbacks, devastators, and Land Raiders. Round out 2000 points with Deathwing knights or black knights.

 axisofentropy wrote:
I think other chapters can do a lot of those mechanised armies better. A good Dark Angels green wing army would do things that Ultramarines can't, like the Dark Shroud's -1 to hit bubble and Azreal's 4++ field bubble. These both work on all nearby Dark Angels. Both of them pair well with dreadnaughts (check Forgeworld), Razorbacks, devastators, and Land Raiders. Round out 2000 points with Deathwing knights or black knights.

You're probably right. Still, I wonder if there's some middle ground to be had here. If nothing else, a Darkshroud could protect the metal boxes as they move up the field, then protect at least some of the guys inside after they disembark. And there would still be points left for Azrael + a few Dreads/Preds in the backfield.

Speaking of Darkshrouds, does their -1 to hit bubble apply during Overwatch? Meaning that targeting units inside its bubble would therefore require a 7+ and be unable to hit? I don't have my rulebook in front of me right now, but I'm curious.

I'm still very new and unsure about list-building in 8th, but my old Battle Company had an allied Knight Warden and it worked well as a hard-hitting force. Can I still ally my Warden in, or has that all changed?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I'm still very new and unsure about list-building in 8th, but my old Battle Company had an allied Knight Warden and it worked well as a hard-hitting force. Can I still ally my Warden in, or has that all changed?

Since it has the Imperium keyword it should be fine!

 ZergSmasher wrote:


Speaking of Darkshrouds, does their -1 to hit bubble apply during Overwatch? Meaning that targeting units inside its bubble would therefore require a 7+ and be unable to hit? I don't have my rulebook in front of me right now, but I'm curious.

overwatch ignores modifiers, positive and negative. (I'm not yet sure which rerolls apply.)

With regards to ravenwing biker squads. What are the loads outs people are having success with?

Personally, I think chainswords over bolt pistols might be a way to go. Especially if there is a RW Ancient with them. The ability for RW to shoot forward straight into CC seems like it might be good. I'm also not so sure about having 2 meltaguns in the squad anymore. Not sure what I'd add (maybe flamers or grav-guns).

I've found that Grav is still decent for most things, just not the OP craziness it used to be.

Ravenwing are probably better skirmish units than assault. Chainswords are certainly better than pistols tho.

How did I miss that even the regular bikers could trade in their pistols for chainswords? That might have come in handy in a recent game. I still agree that even with chainswords Ravenwing bikes should try to stay out of combat if possible. The problem is that their weapons kind of require them to get danger close for full effect, especially flamers and meltaguns. Black Knights seem like they are decent in melee, though, especially if there's a Ravenwing Ancient nearby. With the cost increase of Ravenwing units across the board, I'm not sure that an all-Ravenwing army is really viable anymore unfortunately.

Speaking of, I'm pretty unhappy with the huge points increase for our Land Speeders. A speeder with Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Launcher costs as much as a Dreadnought with Missiles and Twin Lascannons. I'd take the Dread every single time given the choice. The only advantage I can see a speeder having is mobility, but since they are made of cardboard I'm not sure they'll survive being attacked long enough to make use of that mobility. Is there a good way to make them work?

Hi all, I've been flirting with the idea of running a DA successor chapter alongside Cypher and some Fallen. Wondering if there are any real advantages or disadvantages to doing so?

Fluff idea is that Cypher and/or some Fallen leader have infiltrated the chapter, and turned their way of thinking, to realise the DA are the actual Traitors and the Fallen are the good guys, regardless of the actual truth.

In real world terms, it's a way for me to run my Black Reach/Battle Of Vedros marines with minimal painting, as well as being able to use the metal Cypher I got before they were discontinued. Have 5 regular marines from the Kill Team box whom I've stuck on some DA shoulder pads and painted to match my Cypher. Mainly played BA for loyalist marines, but the Fallen idea appeals.

Edit: I've also got the Dark Vengeance captain bloke, and wouldn't be opposed to getting the whole box set as I'm also trying to build up a decent Chaos list.

I think speeders with heavy flamers seem good.

Generally the fallen suffer from not being able to get in any transports. I would probably recommend running them as another unit.

craggy wrote:
Hi all, I've been flirting with the idea of running a DA successor chapter alongside Cypher and some Fallen. Wondering if there are any real advantages or disadvantages to doing so?

Fluff idea is that Cypher and/or some Fallen leader have infiltrated the chapter, and turned their way of thinking, to realise the DA are the actual Traitors and the Fallen are the good guys, regardless of the actual truth.

In real world terms, it's a way for me to run my Black Reach/Battle Of Vedros marines with minimal painting, as well as being able to use the metal Cypher I got before they were discontinued. Have 5 regular marines from the Kill Team box whom I've stuck on some DA shoulder pads and painted to match my Cypher. Mainly played BA for loyalist marines, but the Fallen idea appeals.

Edit: I've also got the Dark Vengeance captain bloke, and wouldn't be opposed to getting the whole box set as I'm also trying to build up a decent Chaos list.

Sounds interesting. But the down side is that Cypher and the Fallen can not use any of the transports..so they are foot slogging it. IF your going fluffy with it, then no Librarians as they are often use to spot Cypher and Fallen. I am looking at doing a list kinda of like this as well, for fun. Right now I have a full 5th co and Deathwing company as well. 8th gives so many options.

How do we feel about the Darkshroud? They used to be a must-take, at least for Ravenwing armies (2+ rerollable jink saves will be sorely missed). Is the 6" bubble of -1 to hit worth the price tag?

Hello. I am new to the game but have been painting miniatures for years and have decided to finally put together a viable army to field. Having some rudimentary, non-game play knowledge of the game I decided it best to consult with more seasoned and wiser players for feedback. Any constructive criticisms you can throw at me is greatly appreciated.
Battalion Detachment:
HQ: Azreal
Ezekiel
Primaris LT

Troops: 4 x 5 man Tac Squads with Plasma guns
Sgts w/ BP & CS
5 man Scout Squad with Sniper rifles & cloaks

Flyers: Dark Shroud
Dark Talon

Vanguard Detachment:
HQ: Belial

Elites: Deathwing Knights
Deathwing Ancient
Deathwing Apothecary
Dreadnought, 2x T-LC
Dreadnought, 2x T-AC
This is an attempt at a combined arms, “all-comers” list. The idea is to create a “Bubble of Death” with the overlapping benefits of Azrael, Zeek, the LT, and the Shroud matched with the Dreadnoughts firepower. Ideally, I’d also be able to snuggle the snipers into the bubble as well depending on the mission. The Tac squads would establish a defensive perimeter around the “Bubble” to prevent in-close deepstrikes and to slow down any charging hordes that might threaten the ordinance. Tac squads could also be used to secure objectives as well depending on the mission. Belial and his Deathwing element would deepstrike to deal with dangerous enemy elements. While the Dark talon would provide air support where needed. Thanks in advance for any help.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Is the 6" bubble of -1 to hit worth the price tag?

The first 8th GT was won by a 6 flyer list, so that -1 to hit must be pretty damn good. My first Deathwing list contained 3 venerable dreads for anti tank, but I can get 3 flyers, any combination of dark talons/nephilims for almost the same points cost and they can be just as brutal for anti tank, plus they have the mobility that my terminators don't have.

I've been running pure deathwing, and I've had pretty good luck with 2 TH/SS and 3 bolters per squad (with a CML). I ran this very successfully

At 2k I had six squads like that, a terminator librarian (I should get an Ezekiel model), and Belial.

The addition of the shields makes all the squads pretty tough and versatile, and with any extra points I can throw in some Watchers in the Dark, to help protect against smite spam.

Thoughts?

any competitive ravenwing lists up yet? or green/raven? Kinda struggling at the moment -.-

Ravenwing will do better once events start using Maelstrom objectives and progressive scoring. NOVA will probably have this, and the ITC missions will be updated soon. For now, try playing Ravenwing in Maelstrom with your friends!

I haven't had a ton of games yet in 8th but from what I can tell Azrael is probably the most reliable character to build around this edition. He's really good. I really like what some have been suggesting the synergies with the gun venerable dreads and the dark shroud seems interesting.

However I don't feel you can play this edition with a pure gun line if people are using a decent amount of terrain. You will likely need some mobile pressure part of the army. I haven't been able to decide if that's bikes, terms or just more marines in razorbacks. What have you folks been doing? Something tells me it's between razors or Bikes. They stand out to me. Terminators seem good but still a little expensive. But termies are infantry so can work with objectives and the relic better than bikes. What has been your guys' experience?

Question about the Darkshroud. My reading of the Icon of Old Caliban rule would allow them to stack. The rules says -1 for shooting attacks against Dark Angels w/in 6" of this model rather than the more usual within 6" of a Darkshroud or Icon of Old Caliban. Thoughts?

Also, while I haven't played with the math yet, stacking bonus attacks on to Knights with flails seems like a keen way to mince hordes (well, anything with one wound really). That carryover on the damage is pretty awesome IMO. I need to run the numbers and set the damage potential next to lost shooting before I decide for sure, but it seems good.

You don't get the option to take multiple flails do you? I thought that was just on the sgt.

 GrimDork wrote:
You don't get the option to take multiple flails do you? I thought that was just on the sgt.

That would be why it isn't a more popular topic of discussion.

Now how about those stacking Darkshrouds...

On the weekend I played my first big game of 8th with my Dark Angels. As we wanted to get straight to playing we decided on powerlevels (150 to give us a chance to try as many things out as we can) my list was:-

Battalion
Azrael
Ezekiel
10 tacticals with combiplas, plasgun, plascannon
10 tacticals with powerfist/plaspistol, flamer, missile launcher
5 sniper scouts
razorback (las, twinplas)
6 bikers (flamer, melta)
Venerable dred twin las, twin ac
Dark talon

Vanguard
Belial
Ancient
apothecary
dw champion
2 x dw terminator squads (1 assault cannon, 1 plas cannon
dw knights
LR Redeemer

I was up against a guard player who brought more tanks than ive seen for a looong time. cant remember what was exaclty his list but there was at least 4 Leman russ (including the tank commander, a demolisher, hydra, 3w or four squads in chimeras and a manticore.

Was playing the hold the relic mission and i have to say that wow!!! tanks are hard to kill........

However, while i wasnt actually killing much, my plan of castling the tacs, azrael, razor back and dred on the objective, while the bikes ran interference and the terminators (all deepstriking, decided to just use the redeemer as a road block as the objective was my side of a bridge) worked very well indeed, and although we ran out of time in the end it was pretty close either way when we stopped.

Things I learnt:-

NEVER leave home without Azrael....he is astoundlingly good.
If using terminators....Always get belial and the ancient standard bearer termies with rerolls and extra attacks are viscious.
Terminators are about a millions times better than they have been for a long time and are much harder to kill. At one point one of my units took the combined firepower of 3 leman russ and the hydra before it had even lost a wound let alone a model.
On a related note, the extra wound for bikers makes a huge difference.
Do not underestimate the dark talon...the rift cannon was incredibly useful against that many tanks.
Ramming people with redeemers assault launchers is very good fun.
Tactical marines can be very very good when supported with a character or two.
Ezekiel was ok but our psychic powers seem much more situational than other lists.
If i add a dark shroud ill have a firebase that should be really really hard to shift.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In reply to those discussing stacking dark shrouds...the new faq prevents it (basically -1 regardless of how many dark talons)

I really want to get a dark talon. The model seems super useful now. I always loved the model but in 7th it seemed so useless.

I'm also really liking the idea of a dark shroud now too. Has anyone toyed with the different speeders in general? I know some people have made a pretty convincing case for speeders with heavy flamers. I'm thinking a couple missile launcher heavy bolter speeders could be pretty solid with Azrael's buffs. Thoughts?

Well, all i can say is i liked the dark talon model so much i bought it when it was released....was ok but now its going to be a staple in my lists i think. Hurricane bolters are great and the stasis bomb..oh my its nasty.

With speeders you really want to keep em moving, im not sure that other than the shroud its really worth them hanging around azrael over say a venerable dred or two.

flamer ones could certainly getsome use for clearance of bubble wrap units for your termies though

Yeah, I've ordered a second venerable dread for that reason. They seem to be the best option for hanging back and shooting. I think the dark talon will be one of my next orders! It seems like a great multipurpose tool for clearing horde and single model units.

The DT does seem cool. I like it better than the chibihawk aesthetically.

I wonder if I could properly convert my land speeder storm into a dark shroud...

 GrimDork wrote:
The DT does seem cool. I like it better than the chibihawk aesthetically.

I wonder if I could properly convert my land speeder storm into a dark shroud...

I'd be happier with the models if they weren't covered in extraneous gothic shenanigans.The DT especially looks like it flew through Nagash's laundry line on its way to the battle.

princeyg wrote:

Was playing the hold the relic mission and i have to say that wow!!! tanks are hard to kill........



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In reply to those discussing stacking dark shrouds...the new faq prevents it (basically -1 regardless of how many dark talons)

No....Leman Russes die fast...really fast.

After giving it a go and loving it, I realized my Spartan plan is illegal, thanks to the Relic rule, which basically makes you take an additional 800+ points of stuff in a super-heavy detachment to get access to relic Lord's of war. Wonderful design, FW. In any event, I guess that makes a dreadnought backfield the default plan. I'm going to give twin Las/ccw dreads a go since that's what I have on hand at the moment. I'm counting on it being a fair amount of shooting and backfield objective camping combined with reasonable drop denial. Getting counter-charge by a couple Dreadnoughts doesn't seem so fun.