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Widied wrote:

No pressure in my opponent deployment zone. At least not from deepstriking or fast moving units (aside from the Dark Talon). I basically have to whether an entire turn of shooting every game. So far it's been durable enough to last but in my local meta I haven't played anyone yet that can put out a massive amount of shots turn one. I'm not sure how this would fair against a a Tau/Guard gun line.

Anyways, I'd love some feedback on this list or if anyone else is trying something similar.

I like your list. I have a list I've been working on at 1500 points and the closer I get to 2000 the more my list is probably going to look like yours. I really want to get a dark shroud and dark talon. Ive been curious since the edition dropped. The only key difference I think between our two lists is I'm for the use of venerable dreads as long range/close range options. I have one with a fist/lascannon, and another with ml and lascannon. Also using a pred and devestators for long range. But the dreads might help with your concern about drops in your zone. The combat fist and heavy flamer could be a deterrent.

I appreciate it. I think i'm leaning more towards dreads to. The smaller size compared to a pred is really appealing. And the ven dreads hitting on 2+ is pretty nice. The only dread I have right now is one I bought in like 2002 when I first started playing haha. I did somehow manage to keep all the arms for it though so could do a fist/flamer combo. Only concern I have with this is wasting points when there are no deepstrikes/cult ambush/etc units. I'll have to run him up the field, which isn't necessarily bad but not sure it'd work out. I figured I could always counter charge with the shooty version I have now in a pinch backed up by the HQ units. I'm really thinking about doing the fist/LC like you have if I can find the points. I'd give up one ML shot for a little more CC.

I need help from fellow DA players regarding the Ravenwing Black Knights. I simply can't get them to work for me. Even before I write this, I know that the most likely (and best) answer is to include Azrael and get both the protection and the rerolls, but I am not a very big fan of Special Characters, especially those that are considered "auto include", like Celestine for my SoB.

I feel that they are simply too expensive for what they deliver. If they want the jink, they hit on 4+ with their plasmas. You really don't want to overcharge with a 50p model, we can't have a captain on a bike to keep up with them, and now, when they are reduced to 2 attacks, they tend to get bogged down by ordinary troops, unable to kill enough of them before they are dragged down by sheer number of attacks against them.

So, how do you play them? Keep them hidden and let them pounce on weekend units that have come to your table half? How should I deploy them? What should I aim them at? I need help...

Regards: Agusto

Agusto wrote:
I need help from fellow DA players regarding the Ravenwing Black Knights. I simply can't get them to work for me. Even before I write this, I know that the most likely (and best) answer is to include Azrael and get both the protection and the rerolls, but I am not a very big fan of Special Characters, especially those that are considered "auto include", like Celestine for my SoB.

I feel that they are simply too expensive for what they deliver. If they want the jink, they hit on 4+ with their plasmas. You really don't want to overcharge with a 50p model, we can't have a captain on a bike to keep up with them, and now, when they are reduced to 2 attacks, they tend to get bogged down by ordinary troops, unable to kill enough of them before they are dragged down by sheer number of attacks against them.

So, how do you play them? Keep them hidden and let them pounce on weekend units that have come to your table half? How should I deploy them? What should I aim them at? I need help...

Regards: Agusto

I have found them very effective against Space Marine Equivalents, especially Terminators. I do not have qualms about special characters in this Edition, so I try to have them with someone granting rerolls. With Sammael its easy, but I've also used Belial. He teleports to the decisive point where the Black Knights join him with their speed. I happily supercharge against Terminators and vehicles if I have a reroll - I do not, however, reroll 2s when supercharging.

For me they have struggled against hordes. They need support, and they are very expensive for what they do against armies without High Payoff Targets.

I have been looking through this Tactics line and have found very little regarding Ravenwing. Are they really not a viable option? I have a good sized amount of bikes and Nephlims/Dark Talons. And would love to be able to field them and still be a bit Competitive. Any ideas or thoughts on good units and strategies?

I currently have 2 attack bikes with MM, and 2 landpseeders with AC/HB. They will get some playing time but definitely not great. The good news, replace those with 2 Nephilims for the same points....done deal.

I was thinking of running an air wing with 3 Dark Talons and 2 Nephlims. I want to support them with two Dark Shrouds and whatever else I can fit.

Am I the only one who is feeling a bit disappointed that 8th seems to be turning into an edition of flyers, super heavies and special characters?

I still think that this is what an 40K army should look like. Not spamming knights, stormravens, drones, horrors or razorwing flocks!

Agusto wrote:
I need help from fellow DA players regarding the Ravenwing Black Knights. I simply can't get them to work for me. Even before I write this, I know that the most likely (and best) answer is to include Azrael and get both the protection and the rerolls, but I am not a very big fan of Special Characters, especially those that are considered "auto include", like Celestine for my SoB.

I feel that they are simply too expensive for what they deliver. If they want the jink, they hit on 4+ with their plasmas. You really don't want to overcharge with a 50p model, we can't have a captain on a bike to keep up with them, and now, when they are reduced to 2 attacks, they tend to get bogged down by ordinary troops, unable to kill enough of them before they are dragged down by sheer number of attacks against them.

So, how do you play them? Keep them hidden and let them pounce on weekend units that have come to your table half? How should I deploy them? What should I aim them at? I need help...

Regards: Agusto

Sammael. He can keep up with the BKs while providing rerolls to hit, which is especially nice for plasma. He's also a nasty beatstick with some great rules. I think any RW list needs him.

Thanks, but as I said... not a big fan of SC!

Agusto wrote:
Thanks, but as I said... not a big fan of SC!

If your going to hamstring yourself by not using some of the most powerful units in the codex, how can you expect to make things better? I have no clue why you wouldn't want to use SCs tbh. I remember a time, a long while back, when that mentality was going around but haven't heard it for years at this point. Just about all of the SCs now provide crucial aura's and buffs that really make other units much, much better and this new edition is built around. I love SCs, and imo this game and the lore are about the heroes and villains of the galaxy, so why not bring them to the table top?

bobafett012 wrote:

Agusto wrote:
Thanks, but as I said... not a big fan of SC!

If your going to hamstring yourself by not using some of the most powerful units in the codex, how can you expect to make things better? I have no clue why you wouldn't want to use SCs tbh. I remember a time, a long while back, when that mentality was going around but haven't heard it for years at this point. Just about all of the SCs now provide crucial aura's and buffs that really make other units much, much better and this new edition is built around. I love SCs, and imo this game and the lore are about the heroes and villains of the galaxy, so why not bring them to the table top?

Quoted and exalted for truth. If you don't use SCs, you are gimping yourself. Most armies have very good SCs, and Dark Angels really don't do all that well without them. Our best builds revolve around Azrael, Belial, and Sammael, alone or in some combination. Ezekiel, as I've said before, is also pretty solid, and Asmodai actually has a use for the first time in...well, ever. The non-unique characters definitely have a place as well and are generally cheaper, but the unique heroes really stand out in this edition, perhaps more than in previous editions.

+1 regarding Dark Angels Special Characters. I feel no qualms using them in this edition. In 2nd Ed I rarely took SCs outside of narrative play, but that was 1996 and this is 2017. The Ravenwing do not have a Captain on a Bike, so Sammael gets the nod for my RW.

Regarding the Ravenwing, I took a RW/DW force today against Orcs. Supported by two Ravenwing Squads, the Black Knights did very well. The RW squads dished out the dakka while the Black Knights dealt with High Payoff Targets. Sammael did very well in both shooting and close combat. The Champion, Ancient and Apothecary ended up dealing with threats in my backfield. Being on their own was not in my game plan, but they were a decent reserve and my Orc opponent used Stormboyz and Da Jump to great effect. In the end we recovered the Relic (a Fallen in a stasis chamber on a crashed Dark Talon) and killed most of the orcs for the tragic yet heroic loss of the Deathwing Knights.

I think that an RW list might be viable with a few Troops/Heavy Support slots filled. I am a little sad that I take Flyers over Landspeeders, but I can't find a way to make Landspeeders worth it yet.

Try a Ravenwing list with Sammael - its fun! Nowhere is safe from him. I also have a hard time thinking of taking a Deathwing force without Belial.

Cheers

Iain

Agusto wrote:
Am I the only one who is feeling a bit disappointed that 8th seems to be turning into an edition of flyers, super heavies and special characters?

I still think that this is what an 40K army should look like. Not spamming knights, stormravens, drones, horrors or razorwing flocks!

totally agree, I dislike the spammy lists

Well, I guess I am one of the few who like to create my own characters with back stories and all, instead of using SC:s. And yes, perhaps that is the answer... that people think that Black Knights are unplayable without SC:s, and that's it!

Also, I am fully aware that I am gimping myself for not using the most powerful SC:s or units (flyers as an example), but not everyone out there is a power gamer or wants to maximise their list. I never got the reason why GW got so much flak from their "forge the narrative" point of view. I, personally, think that that is the best way to play any games with other people. But then again, I am more of an rpg:er than a table top:er. Some of us still play with a mindset that "the rule of cool" should be adhered to and play with the models that we think look the best, not has the best rules under the current edition, God I miss Nigel Stillman, and the main goal is to roll a few dice and hope that both you and your opponent have a good time.

What I wanted to know was about placements, prefered targets, what to avoid. You know, tactics! But it seems that for most people 8th is just like 7th, it is a game of list building and nothing more.

But I guess I got my answer: They don't work.

Thanks.

ps: Thank you TangoTwoBravo, for the pointers regarding their best targets.

Agusto wrote:
Well, I guess I am one of the few who like to create my own characters with back stories and all, instead of using SC:s. And yes, perhaps that is the answer... that people think that Black Knights are unplayable without SC:s, and that's it!

What I wanted to know was about placements, prefered targets, what to avoid. You know, tactics! But it seems that for most people 8th is just like 7th, it is a game of list building and nothing more.

But I guess I got my answer: They don't work.

Thanks.

ps: Thank you TangoTwoBravo, for the pointers regarding their best targets.

You could try a detachment with a Chaplain on a Bike as the HQ, with a Librarian on a Bike along for support. The Chaplain would at least give re-rolls in close combat. I do not find that close combat is the strong suite of the Ravenwing, although the Champion and Ancient can help a little. My Ravenwing rely on firepower.

The Ravenwing have good firepower, good protection/resilience and great mobility. I set up somewhat dispersed to keep my opponent guessing. I then use the 14" move to mass two or three squads against one enemy unit. Getting just inside 12" allows for a hail of Bolter fire, along with any special weapons and attack bike weapons that you have included. The Black Knights aim for things like Dreadnoughts, Terminators, Hellbrutes etc. In close combat they occasionally shine when they roll 6s for wounds with their Corvus Hammers, but I still see them primarily as shooters.

I have been experimenting with Ravenwing Bike Squad size. I am liking five bikers with an Attack Bike. This squadron can dish out 24 bolter shots at 12" plus the special/heavy weapons. Two of them converging on one target unit can be devastating.

I had a tough battle today between my Ravenwing and Orcs. Mass slaughter of greenskins, but he held more objectives. While Ravenwing have mobility, they can lack enough units to contest multiple objectives. One unit that shone when I thought it would not was a three-strong Ravenwing Landspeeder Squadron. They cost a lot, but they mauled and/or destroyed four units (Stormboyz, Boyz, Nobz, Burna). They benefited for two turns of shooting from Sammael, but for two others they took advantage of a central firing position. I could have taken a Flyer (and then some) instead for the points, but it did show me that my beloved Landspeeders might still have a place.

I think that they perform better as a supporting Outrider detachment for a more meaty detachment, I am not writing off the Ravenwing as a standalone force yet. If nothing else, they play to my style of fire and movement!

Cheers

Agusto wrote:
Well, I guess I am one of the few who like to create my own characters with back stories and all, instead of using SC:s. And yes, perhaps that is the answer... that people think that Black Knights are unplayable without SC:s, and that's it!

Also, I am fully aware that I am gimping myself for not using the most powerful SC:s or units (flyers as an example), but not everyone out there is a power gamer or wants to maximise their list. I never got the reason why GW got so much flak from their "forge the narrative" point of view. I, personally, think that that is the best way to play any games with other people. But then again, I am more of an rpg:er than a table top:er. Some of us still play with a mindset that "the rule of cool" should be adhered to and play with the models that we think look the best, not has the best rules under the current edition, God I miss Nigel Stillman, and the main goal is to roll a few dice and hope that both you and your opponent have a good time.

What I wanted to know was about placements, prefered targets, what to avoid. You know, tactics! But it seems that for most people 8th is just like 7th, it is a game of list building and nothing more.

Well, yes, clearly list building is the biggest factor in 40k. Honestly I don't remember an edition where list building didn't play a huge role. As far as as "the rule of cool" goes, I play Deathwing, and have so for 19 years now, and no amount of tactics is going to make them a top tier army. I can pull out wins here and there but if i don't bring stuff like Belial, Azreal etc, there is no way i'd stand a change. It was like that in at least the last 3 editions because FFG made you bring Belial to unlock termiantors as troops, same with Sammael and ravenwing bikers. So i've long gave up on not running SC's.

Having said that, seeing the new codex, and pages of relics, that SC's can't take, only your own home brewed characters can them, so just maybe, there will be some relics in the DA book when it comes out that allows us to make some non named SC that can be as good as some of the named SCs? we shall see

Also, to be honest, I agree with you on many of your gripes. I hate seeing super heavies, Lords of War, Knights, imperial armor and all these spam armies from WAAC players in regular 40k. IMO, it was also a HUGE mistake to eliminate the force orgs, that alone will make spam armies never go away. We already saw today that GW FAQ'd the rules so that flyer spam is basically dead now, but the WAAc players will just come up with something new, and GW might have to address that next.

.

A big "thank you" to both Tango and Boba!

The main issue that I have with the Black Knights is their points versus survivability. They are soooo expensive and just as easy as ordinary bikes to take out, and cost more than 50% more. Given the 8th ed version of cover, or rather lack thereof, I am struggling to find places to increase their save or more preferably, hide them altogether. Most players know that they are quite a decent multi purpose unit that packs a punch both in shooting and cc, so they are high up on their priority list. And yes, 2W are better than one, and yes, I'ld rather have a Jink save than not... But shooting is so much deadlier now with all the rerolls handed out like candy.

I am wondering if terrain and future table building is going to make Black Knights, and Ravenwing in general, more attractive. Now, (most) groups, clubs and shops only have terrain that was built for a previous rules system. One that that benefitted being behind cover rather than in. Once tables are starting to use more terrain with bases, helping with the "within" portion, and more importantly, seeing more solid line of sight blockers, I think that Black Knights will become better. Being able to dash 14+6'' from cover to cover. Being able to charge out from behind a building and into cc (without getting shot to pieces because the only terrain feature infront of them is a wood that was built with really narrow trees in order to make the placing of models easier but now means that none of the bikers get the 50% obscured rule).

That, and I am starting to think that perhaps a Darkshroud is needed after all. That, in combination with Aversion from a Librarian against the heaviest hitter on the other side is the way to go.

So, GW released the new Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought and i think it looks sweeeeet.
But question is, is it better or as same level of goodness as Venerable Dreadnought. I want to add 2 dreadnoughts to my army but i dont know if to get 2x Primaris because i like the look or 1 Primaris and 1 Venerable for versability.
Ideally i would love to get 2x Primaris because of the looks but will it be viable?

Araablane wrote:
So, GW released the new Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought and i think it looks sweeeeet.
But question is, is it better or as same level of goodness as Venerable Dreadnought. I want to add 2 dreadnoughts to my army but i dont know if to get 2x Primaris because i like the look or 1 Primaris and 1 Venerable for versability.
Ideally i would love to get 2x Primaris because of the looks but will it be viable?

Check out Tabletop Tactics on Youtube. GW already gave them the new SM codex and they did a battle report using it. Smurfs vs. Iron Warriors. They used the new redempter dreadnought. It has 13 wounds iirc. In that game the smurfs were seized on and it soaked up a lot of fire. Wanna say it was down to 3 wounds, was charged by a hell brute, survived and smashed it's face in when it attacked back. Next turn it charged another hell brute and ripped it apart. It has a lot of fire power including AAA. Of course one game isn't probably going to be enough to tell but from that first look it seems to be pretty mean. I think it has the same toughness as other dreads as well and unlike other dreads it degrades with damage. Which I thought was crazy considering it was still able to do the damage it did in CC but he was able to reroll hits and wounds thanks to the primarch being close by.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh. They are also going to be putting a review of the new SM codex out. Its either already out or will be posted soon. May help you decide.

What's the best way for DA to deal with hordes of Orks WITHOUT taking dark talons or nephilim fighters?

Do landraider crusaders work or normal assault termies? I have azrael and a darkshroud but I dont want to spend money on the DA flyers as I do not really like their aesthetic... Shame we cant use stormravens as I've got TWO

Nidzrule! wrote:
What's the best way for DA to deal with hordes of Orks WITHOUT taking dark talons or nephilim fighters?

Do landraider crusaders work or normal assault termies? I have azrael and a darkshroud but I dont want to spend money on the DA flyers as I do not really like their aesthetic... Shame we cant use stormravens as I've got TWO

I mean you can use them, they just would not benefit from the rest of your army and would not be able to transport anything (unless those things also were not "DA")

In trying to re-purpose my full Lion's Blade, how viable would this list be for 2k pts:

Battalion:
6 Tac Squads, 4 Lascannon, 2 ML - 510 pts
Dedicated Transports - 6 Razorbacks with Twin AC - 600 pts

Dev Squad with Grav Cannons and grav-amps - 177pts
Dedicated Transport - Drop Pod with SB - 105

Dark Talon- 180

Azrael - 180

1572 total, looking for some advice on what else to bring along. I have 4 more Twin AC Razorbacks I could use, but that's even more spam. I also have an Imperial Knight I could bring along, though not sure about the points values for the build I would want (Gatling Cannon, Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, Stormspear, Stubber, Heavy Flamer).

Nidzrule! wrote:
What's the best way for DA to deal with hordes of Orks WITHOUT taking dark talons or nephilim fighters?

Do landraider crusaders work or normal assault termies? I have azrael and a darkshroud but I dont want to spend money on the DA flyers as I do not really like their aesthetic... Shame we cant use stormravens as I've got TWO

I've won three of the last four battles against Orks with Dark Angels. I did use a Nephilim in two of them, but my most consistent Ork killers have been my Deathwing Terminators. You can put out a lot of dakka when you arrive with normal Storm Bolters, possibly aided by Belial. In the game I lost I went without Terminators. Ravenwing Landspeeders can also put some pain on large Ork mobs, and I found a Whirlwind effective in one game.

Nidzrule! wrote:
What's the best way for DA to deal with hordes of Orks WITHOUT taking dark talons or nephilim fighters?

Do landraider crusaders work or normal assault termies? I have azrael and a darkshroud but I dont want to spend money on the DA flyers as I do not really like their aesthetic... Shame we cant use stormravens as I've got TWO

My last game against Orks, I used Azrael, a bunch of the Primaris units, as well as a couple of dreadnoughts with lascannons, a squad of lascannon devs, and a las Predator. I also had a couple of Razorbacks and a flamer Assault Squad. The Ork player had 3 Morkanauts, 3 big blobs of like 30 boyz each, 2 Big Meks on bikes, a Wierdboy for Da Jump, and a Warboss. I did beat him, but it was close since I didn't realize that in the mission whoever was closest to the relic wins that objective if no one is holding it. I could have won bigger if I had known that. During the game, I dropped all 3 Morkanauts (1 per turn) easily enough with all my lascannons, and my Intercessors really did some work both in shooting and CC against the boyz. Between Azrael's and the Primaris Lieutenant's buffs, I got plenty of rerolls, and I used Command Points judiciously as well.

So, short answer to facing Orks: pretty much anything with plenty of shots or CC attacks; they don't have to be powerful attacks either as Orks don't have great saves. Primaris Marines work really well for their cost, especially Intercessors, as they are durable and get decent firepower (an Ork Boy gets no save against their bolt rifles). With the upcoming price drop on Inceptors I may consider using them as well, assuming that applies to DA units and not just vanilla ones.

Asmodai and Azrael spread out to cover gunlines of Las Tacticals and AC Razorbacks a sound strategy? Easy to get everything with 6 inches of one or both of these guys for rerolls to hit.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Asmodai and Azrael spread out to cover gunlines of Las Tacticals and AC Razorbacks a sound strategy? Easy to get everything with 6 inches of one or both of these guys for rerolls to hit.

I think Asmodai only gives rerolls to hit in the Fight phase, kind of like other chaplains do. However, just use a Company Master (Captain) and you can at least reroll 1's to hit in shooting. Also stick a couple of Primaris Lieutenants with them to reroll 1's to wound, and profit!

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Asmodai and Azrael spread out to cover gunlines of Las Tacticals and AC Razorbacks a sound strategy? Easy to get everything with 6 inches of one or both of these guys for rerolls to hit.

I think Asmodai only gives rerolls to hit in the Fight phase, kind of like other chaplains do. However, just use a Company Master (Captain) and you can at least reroll 1's to hit in shooting. Also stick a couple of Primaris Lieutenants with them to reroll 1's to wound, and profit!

Ah yes, you're correct.

I just noticed that for the Deathwing Terminator Squad entry, it lists the power sword as once again being a requirement for the Deathwing Sgt. It also goes on to state that "any model may exchange it's weapons for a stormshield and a thunder hammer". So now I can just give my Sgt. these weapons and he can serve as my +3 invun damage sponge instead of needing another model?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I just noticed that for the Deathwing Terminator Squad entry, it lists the power sword as once again being a requirement for the Deathwing Sgt. It also goes on to state that "any model may exchange it's weapons for a stormshield and a thunder hammer". So now I can just give my Sgt. these weapons and he can serve as my +3 invun damage sponge instead of needing another model?

Pretty sure you can. You could run a whole unit of TH/SS termies if you wanted, although when Deathwing Knights exist there's really no point for Deathwing. Swapping out the Sarge's weapons for TH/SS seems like a good idea, actually.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:


I just noticed that for the Deathwing Terminator Squad entry, it lists the power sword as once again being a requirement for the Deathwing Sgt. It also goes on to state that "any model may exchange it's weapons for a stormshield and a thunder hammer". So now I can just give my Sgt. these weapons and he can serve as my +3 invun damage sponge instead of needing another model?

Yes, and the more games I play, I feel like you need 1 SS in each shooty squad to soak those hits. I got all my Deathwing bitz out to go ahead and make about 4 TH/SS srg's for just this reason. I had a game sunday where I sorely needed that lone SS in each squad, and it cost me the game, so i'll be running the TH/SS sergs from now on.

That's an interesting way to get your unit's SS. I'm conflicted on whether or not that's a worthwhile trade, though, since the sergeant is one of very few opportunities we have to save points on a stormbolter body. That 3++ is pretty handy. I'll have to run a few more games to see if I feel like it's a necessary.