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Xirax wrote:

Btw, Dread's don't fit into normal pods.

Jesus... How are they supposed to be played? Stormraven can still hold them, right?

 soomemafia wrote:

Xirax wrote:

Btw, Dread's don't fit into normal pods.

Jesus... How are they supposed to be played? Stormraven can still hold them, right?

Stormraven, yes. Furioso and DC dread are M 8" vs. normal dread being just M 6". They don't have a damage table like rhino's or even helbrutes so they can work they way T1-2 and sustain some hits. Throw Shield of sanguinius at them for 4+ inv. save to get in to combat, while there they should do ok. DC dread has 6" consolidation. FW has a dread drop pod, haven't seen the rules how it works, but I know it's there. I took a helbrute with my jump packed company veterans loaded with super charged plasma guns on T1 on the first game I had, but still I think that if opponent concentrates that much fire power on a single model others are safe. In the fore mentioned game my enemy tried to take out my AC razor with everything resulting to 1hp left on the razor at 1k point value. He had havocs etc.. (both lists visible at army lists section).

I just don't see how a M8" unit with only 8 wounds could get into combat.
The enemy can easily ignore it on the first turn and should be able to take it out with decent AT, or at least manouver so that it cannot charge anything vital and finish it off on 3rd turn.
Maybe fielding two might make sure that one of them makes it and Shield of Sanguinius obivously helps that, but they still seem like way-too-expensive distraction Carnifexes.

Guhhh yeah, losing the lemartes buff is huge. You need to get that thunder hammer from 1.5 hits to 2.25 hits because if even one gets through the invul save, BAM three wounds gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 soomemafia wrote:
I just don't see how a M8" unit with only 8 wounds could get into combat.
The enemy can easily ignore it on the first turn and should be able to take it out with decent AT, or at least manouver so that it cannot charge anything vital and finish it off on 3rd turn.
Maybe fielding two might make sure that one of them makes it and Shield of Sanguinius obivously helps that, but they still seem like way-too-expensive distraction Carnifexes.

Shield of Sanguinius, smoke launchers (you'll have nothing to shoot turn 1), and if you're going the forge world route (since those rules just dropped, a dread mob backed up by a deredeo with an automatic pavise, OR A DREADNOUGHT DROP POD (combined with magna grapple so you only need a 7 to charge a vehicle, combined with lemartes so you can re-roll your charges) and the death company dread has lots of ways to get into crush range. Not to mention using it as a counter-charge unit since melee units in this edition are FAST.

Xirax wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:
Whoah, I'm shocked that many death company couldn't take down kharn. Lemartes was giving them re-rolls too, and they ALL strike first courtesy basic 8th ed rules? I would have thought the thunder hammer guy would have been enough himself...

Lemartes was dropped out of buff range when he couldn't join the assault. He only gave the reroll for the charge. If I remember correctly it was like: 3 hits from thunder hammer hitting 4+ and wounding on 2+ resulting 1 wounding which was negated by 4+ invul. save. Two power swords made 6 attacks with 3+ to hit 4+ to wound and 4+ invul. save resulting 0 wounds. Then 16 regular attacks from the remaining 4 death company marines wielding a chainsword did 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound and 3+ armour save resulting 2 wounds. Then Kharn killed four guys and on the double attack killed the remaining three. I should have needed better dice rolls and Lemartes should have been in the charge range as well. Aligning the models for next rounds charge would have given the opponent the opportunity to move and charge the DC which I didn't want. I had two CP left and wanted to save the CP's for intervention on the fight phase if my opponent multi-charged my units. Could have used it for thunder hammer hits, but for the fore mentioned reason I canceled the CP, I took the reroll getting second hit, but canceled it before Kharn took inv. save. I really thought 6 power sword and 16 basic attacks would have done a lot more. 4+ inv. save with 1 reroll if I remember correctly made my charge advantage go away.

Lemartes can re-roll his own charge range as well since his buff works on him too. If he wasn't in charge range to begin with, you probably should have repositioned your DC to be ready for a charge the following turn because Characters are extremely powerful this edition. It's almost like the Herohammer of 2nd edition again.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Inceptor = Jetpack + double heavy bolter pistols. They are hilariously overpriced ATM, and unusable. 75 points is a joke, with plasma vets being 32, and other options being much tougher.

apparently this is wrong. My buddy who got the book over the weekend just shot me pictures of the jump pack primaris page and they are not 75 points a model. Don't know if it was a typo or they adjusted the points since playtesting was done, but they are only 53 points with their assault bolters. Still expensive but much more manageable and worth considering at 53 points per model.

bobafett012 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Inceptor = Jetpack + double heavy bolter pistols. They are hilariously overpriced ATM, and unusable. 75 points is a joke, with plasma vets being 32, and other options being much tougher.

apparently this is wrong. My buddy who got the book over the weekend just shot me pictures of the jump pack primaris page and they are not 75 points a model. Don't know if it was a typo or they adjusted the points since playtesting was done, but they are only 53 points with their assault bolters. Still expensive but much more manageable and worth considering at 53 points per model.

The points from the starter are not official points, they are only usable in the starting force v starting force type scenarios.

 Coyote81 wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Inceptor = Jetpack + double heavy bolter pistols. They are hilariously overpriced ATM, and unusable. 75 points is a joke, with plasma vets being 32, and other options being much tougher.

apparently this is wrong. My buddy who got the book over the weekend just shot me pictures of the jump pack primaris page and they are not 75 points a model. Don't know if it was a typo or they adjusted the points since playtesting was done, but they are only 53 points with their assault bolters. Still expensive but much more manageable and worth considering at 53 points per model.

The points from the starter are not official points, they are only usable in the starting force v starting force type scenarios.

Correct. Apparently all the starter points costs are different from the index, and the index overrides the starter set rules.

75 Points stands, and they are still bad. Even at 53 they are.....questionable.

Inceptors will be recosted, or they won't be used.

So I had a game against Tau last night, didn't turn out so well.
My list:
Mephiston
Brother Corbulo
Chapin w/JP
10x VV 9x(2xChainsword)(1xpowersword chainsword)
10x VV 9x(2xChainsword)(1xpowersword chainsword)
10x VV w/JPs 9x(Chainsword Stormshield) 1x(powersword stormshield)
5x Company vets with 4x meltagun and poweraxe pistol sgt
5x Company vets with 4x meltagun and poweraxe pistol sgt
5x Company vets with 4x plasmagun and poweraxe pistol sgt
Stormraven Twin AC, MM, HBs, missiles
Stormraven Twin AC, MM, HBs, missiles

His list:
Coldstar Commander MT, ATS
Darkstrider
3x quad fusion (2x marker drones each)
2x triple burstcannon with ATS (2x marker drones each)
1x triple Mpod with DC (2x marker drones)(warlord)
12x Gundrones
12 Striketeam with mpod turrent
12 Striketeam with mpod turrent
10 Breachers with Devilfish
1x Riptide with HBC 2xfusion TL/ATS

We play Tactical Objectives with 6 objectives on hammer and anvil (This was very bad for me imo)

I went first (I think that was the right answer, because those stormravens and going to get blown up without a doubt.

Setup: Obejctives are mostly centerline on the table, from one end of the table to the other, With 3 being a little closer together on one end, so he took that deployment zone. 2 CMDRs on the table, 5 in reserve.

BA Turn1:
I fly up on my right flank, behind a building and some rock formations, so when my flyers get blown up I can disembark out of sight of most things. I DS meltas near the ripitde. I DS plasma and melta behind the coldstar, but realize the devilfish is closer, so I leave them there and focus down the devilfish (I think this was a mistake). I also dropped some VV with Shields to bubble wrap my stormravens some, but it doesn't really matter, and all that ends up happening is they get killed by burst cannons. I shoot and kill the devilfish. I end up assaulting and killing the breachers (mainly due to bad morale, I only killed 5 in closecombat with 10 VV. Should have been more like 8 but even there it's sad that that man points of closecombat guys can't even roll up breachers in one round. Riptide goes down to like 2 wounds despite 4 meltas 2x multimelta and 4x missiles into him (bad rolling). The gundrones that were surrounding the warlord get vaporized, although I over killed them and missed shooting the marker drones.

Tau Turn1:

Fusion suits drop, 2 in front of my storm ravens, one off to the left, near the rest of his army. Burst suit in my backfield(I don't really have a backfield with this list, but he was on the obj on my side of the table) Coldstar joins the Burstsuit.

Marklgihts up on first raven, down in 2 volleys of fusion, no marker on 2nd raven, down in one volley of fusion. I lose total of 4 guys from vehicle explosion. I lose VV with shields to burst cannons, I lose melta/plasma squad to concentrated fire from enemy striketeams/burst cannon/Mpod guys. I lost 4 from the other melta squad to the riptide even though he had 6's to hitIamazing rolls most of the game) I lost a couple stragglers from the disembarking squads. All in all I lost 26 of my 50 models that turn.

BA Turn2: Looking bad for your heroes. Mephiston run up and killed the riptide after failing to kill it with smite (cast 4++ on himself) and plasma pistol. Corbulo follows him. VV with shields (the other half) land to help with the commanders that kill the stormraven. I fail charge with them, the last models from the melta squad dies, but I do kill the riptide and charge some other commanders, just bouncing off their T5 3+, watching them fallback and just shoot me to death.

TLDR: I did manage to get some 11pts from objectives(even though I totally misplayed one and he was nice about letting me play it out how I misunderstood it. It was the 66 roll) He still beat me on points getting 12 or 13 at the end, although it didn't matter because he tabled me on bottom of 5.


Summmary of what I thought I did wrong, what was good/bad.

-Mephiston = beatstick, everyone saw this, he actually killed 3 commanders and the hurt riptide that game, each one in 1 round of combat.

-Brother Corbulo, unsure, he wasn't really in a place to help my guys mush and the were dropping like flies, so if just wasn't doing all that mush.

-Chaplin, love him, cheap, and rerolls all the time.

-Company vet special weapon squads, these are the MVPs imo, I'll probably take these more often.

-VV 2x chainsword, well fi you don't like tactical squad, these are basically combat tacticals, which was really ineffective. watching close combat attacks bounce off 4+ saves was very disheartening, especially when they move out of combat next turn and just shoot me, thanks darkstrider.

-VV w/ Stormshields: They did save meph's life on turn and survived, no sure how I feel, I think they needed power swords.

-Stormravens, love the idea of them, 2 games of trying them now, they get focused down pretty easy.

I think I needed to hold my melta/plasma squads in reserve for another turn, because I know he had to drop fusion guys to kill stormravens, so I could drop afterward and just kill them. I think 2 stormravens was too much. I also feel I need a lot more power swords/ lightning claws in my army.

VV with chainswords are meant for mulching hordes. Tau would be on the tougher side of what they should be fighting.

3+ to hit, and 3+ to wound, 4+ save, 4 attacks each right? With 10 VV charging you should be seeing 8-9 dead before morale checks and another 3-4 afterwards, that's a full squad assuming you all make it in. I mean, what more do you expect?

I find you have to be REALLY careful with assault troops, as wherever they end up after melee is where you will be shot at next turn. Melee provides almost no cover, especially against Tau. So all the damage you can really expect out of a melee unit is what they do on the charge.

I'm not 100% up to date on Tau rules, but the best trick I've found is trying to drag as many units as possible into the combat, more than you could possibly kill in 2-3 turns, the more the better really. This means they either have to disengage and not shoot, or cross their fingers and try to fight it out. Again, not really sure how this works with Tau's support fire rules though.

 Carnage43 wrote:
VV with chainswords are meant for mulching hordes. Tau would be on the tougher side of what they should be fighting.

3+ to hit, and 3+ to wound, 4+ save, 4 attacks each right? With 10 VV charging you should be seeing 8-9 dead before morale checks and another 3-4 afterwards, that's a full squad assuming you all make it in. I mean, what more do you expect?

I find you have to be REALLY careful with assault troops, as wherever they end up after melee is where you will be shot at next turn. Melee provides almost no cover, especially against Tau. So all the damage you can really expect out of a melee unit is what they do on the charge.

I'm not 100% up to date on Tau rules, but the best trick I've found is trying to drag as many units as possible into the combat, more than you could possibly kill in 2-3 turns, the more the better really. This means they either have to disengage and not shoot, or cross their fingers and try to fight it out. Again, not really sure how this works with Tau's support fire rules though.

Between Darkstrider buffing his standard infantry and all the crisis suits, nothing could be locked down in combat, unless I managed to surround the infantry, which I don't really have enough models for that.

@Coyote81 - The problem is you've got a bunch of expensive T4/W1/3+(+) that will drop like flies when shot at, ++ or no ++

Because of the durability problem I don't think BA jumpers work without Rhinos/Razors. They block fire lanes, tie up shooting units in combat, absorb overwatch etc etc

I'd dump all those Stormraven points into Razorbacks (personal pref Twin HF) and see how that works out

Xirax wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:
Whoah, I'm shocked that many death company couldn't take down kharn. Lemartes was giving them re-rolls too, and they ALL strike first courtesy basic 8th ed rules? I would have thought the thunder hammer guy would have been enough himself...

Lemartes was dropped out of buff range when he couldn't join the assault. He only gave the reroll for the charge. If I remember correctly it was like: 3 hits from thunder hammer hitting 4+ and wounding on 2+ resulting 1 wounding which was negated by 4+ invul. save. Two power swords made 6 attacks with 3+ to hit 4+ to wound and 4+ invul. save resulting 0 wounds. Then 16 regular attacks from the remaining 4 death company marines wielding a chainsword did 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound and 3+ armour save resulting 2 wounds. Then Kharn killed four guys and on the double attack killed the remaining three. I should have needed better dice rolls and Lemartes should have been in the charge range as well. Aligning the models for next rounds charge would have given the opponent the opportunity to move and charge the DC which I didn't want. I had two CP left and wanted to save the CP's for intervention on the fight phase if my opponent multi-charged my units. Could have used it for thunder hammer hits, but for the fore mentioned reason I canceled the CP, I took the reroll getting second hit, but canceled it before Kharn took inv. save. I really thought 6 power sword and 16 basic attacks would have done a lot more. 4+ inv. save with 1 reroll if I remember correctly made my charge advantage go away.

By the way, this isn't 7e. Your dudes are not forced into making the charge in any certain manner other than reaching melee range and staying coherent for the charge. This means you can have a dude or two lag behind to stay in a buff bubble or on an objective. They aren't even forced to pile in.

Bartali wrote:
@Coyote81 - The problem is you've got a bunch of expensive T4/W1/3+(+) that will drop like flies when shot at, ++ or no ++

Because of the durability problem I don't think BA jumpers work without Rhinos/Razors. They block fire lanes, tie up shooting units in combat, absorb overwatch etc etc

I'd dump all those Stormraven points into Razorbacks (personal pref Twin HF) and see how that works out

Yea I was just attempting to see if jumpers/stormravens could be remotely effective. I just feel they are too expensive and melee is only doable under 2 circumstances.
-You have hordes and hordes of bodies to trap people in.
-You deal substantial damage in the first round, hopefully just out and out killing them, which means you most likely need either really hard hitting things dealing multiple wounds for tough targets, and a crap ton of attacks for soft targets. I had the latter, but I was facing the former, so it did not work for me.

Just got round to getting to grips with the new edition. I sadly didn't get chance to test any BA specific units at 500 pts but I do like what I saw from the game. Played Harlequins with a really sub-optimal list of Captain in Terminator Armour and TH/SS, 5x TH/SS Termies and 5 Scouts but we agreed not to bother about objectives and stuff and just go in trying to kill as much as possible while we're still learning..

Terminators were surprisingly durable and a pleasant surprise. I think I'm going to keep a squad of them around for heavy duties. Can't say the same for the Captain, think I'm going to fit a Jump Pack on him when I buy the Assault Marine set.

Are Blood Angels meant to be getting their own unique rules soon? I heard something that they don't have all of their special rules just yet, or is someone deceiving me?

EDIT: I ended up being tabled which I didn't really mind, this was just a list of what I had left of my models that required very little if no proxying (which made things easier to remember).

Page 175 of the rule book states that the codexes will have warlord traits, stratagems, and relics.

So I'm pondering a BA Termies and Scouts list. General idea s scouts on the field hiding in cover sniping, while termies (both tactical and assault) deep strike where needed.

(The main reason I like this idea is lorewise... the scouts run in to an enemy force too big for them, so they place teleport beacons down and request help. And who else would come to ensure their survival but First Company, veterans come to ensure the new blood survives to become full marines?)

Think this idea can be made to work in 8th? I know at least it fits some of the FoCs.

Vanguards and brigades support this quite well.

I meant how well might it work power-wise rather than if it can fit in to the new FoC lists-- I know it can do the latter.

I think terminators are best if you've got something in your back field you want to defend. So maybe termiantors, scouts, tanks?

What Power Weapons do people find best (outside of Power Fist)?

Sword is pretty solid, especially for BA, with +1 str. However, the axe has a nifty niche for BA as well, since we can get it up to Str 6 for doubling out T3. Sadly, the maul is not looking super great.

Martel732 wrote:
Sword is pretty solid, especially for BA, with +1 str. However, the axe has a nifty niche for BA as well, since we can get it up to Str 6 for doubling out T3. Sadly, the maul is not looking super great.

Is the Maul not worthwhile for S7 against Razorbacks etc (so wound on a 4+) or is it better to just dedicate stuff for that like PF?

I think you are coming out behind the sword. Wound on a 5+ and only give them a 6+ save vs wounding on a 4+ and allowing a 4+ save. For BA, the maul might be better vs T6, though. The differences don't seem huge, though.

S5 is a sweet spot in the wounding chart, being able to wound a ton of dudes (read: most of the game) on 3's, and wound almost anything on a 5. Extremely few things have t10 or higher.

That in mind: most combat marines would prefer an axe, but with our priests around, we can take swords instead and benefit from the extra AP. S6 isn't near as important of a benchmark, as you still wound t7 vehicles on 5's, just with worse AP, and you probably don't need even more help beating most t3 infantry, and if they have a 4+ armor or better like firewarriors, it's a wash between the two. Nod to harlequins as being one of the few times you would both want an axe for s6 near a priest AND who are a credible threat in melee despite being t3, but how often do you face harlies?

My most common opponent plays Eldar alliance so quite often xD I'll try out a mixture of Swords and Axes then for TAC (if that's still a thing)

EDIT:

Company Veterans are strictly better than Vanguard Veterans if you're only running Power Weapons because they're cheaper, right?

My current revised 500 point list is:

Patrol Detachment

HQ
Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack, 2x Lightning Claws = 99

Troops
5x Tactical Marines w/ Heavy Flamer, Combi-Flamer = 93

Elites
Company Veterans w/ Jump Packs, 5x Power Swords, Bolt Pistols = 100

Fast Attack
5x Assault Marines w/ Eviscerator, Combat Shield, 4x Bolt Pistol/Chainsword = 106

Dedicated Transport
Razorback w/ Twin Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter = 102

I could probably drop the Storm Bolter for Power Axes on two Company Veterans for Harlequins but unsure. Any changes you would make? Flamer stuff probably isn't the best use of tacticals (despite not being great to begin with). Maybe Plasma and Combi-Plasma for tough to crack foes? Feels like Sanguinary Priest is a little overpriced but 5 Attacks that hit on 2s and wound on 3+ against T4 with a re-roll and -2 AP sounds good. Maybe change the Claws for Plasma Pistol and Power Sword to make the two points for Power Axes?

Since the sanguinary priest hits on a 2+ I would equip him with either a TH or PF, the first one being my favorite choice as it always deals the 3 damage compared to the d3 of the latter. I dont really care about the bolt pistol.

Flamer stuff is actually good on tacticals. I normally use them as objective holder and not in assault which means that they can overwatch very good with d6 shots at strength 5 and d6 shots atstrength 4 from the sergent.

Also I would suggest you to remove the stormbolter from the razorback.

Since Vanguard Veterans are only two points costier than Assault Marines, but come with an extra A, Ld and funnier toys, do you still think that Assault Marines will be useful?
Right now the only reason I wouldn't upgrade them seems to be if I wanted a Fast Attacks unit for FOC reasons. Maybe cheap flamer..?

 soomemafia wrote:
Since Vanguard Veterans are only two points costier than Assault Marines, but come with an extra A, Ld and funnier toys, do you still think that Assault Marines will be useful?
Right now the only reason I wouldn't upgrade them seems to be if I wanted a Fast Attacks unit for FOC reasons. Maybe cheap flamer..?

I don't see any reason to use normal assault marines over vanguard now. 20 points for 10 attacks is a steal.

I ran 10 Vanguard with jump packs, no toys, as an anti-horde unit in my marines to clear out massed weaker units. They managed to bury the last 10 guys in a Bloodletter squad on the charge, so I was happy.