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2017/08/08 11:00:21
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
I have erased melee from my play. Maybe the BA codex will change that, but right now, its not worth it. To many problems to solve. First you need to get close, then you need to make the charge. If you manage that a smart opponent will remove casualties from the front. On his next turn he will fallback, or maybe he doesnt even have to, because there is no CC anymore, due to losses. Another problem is LOS. Only 1 model needs to be visible to enemy units, and your entire unit can be attacked. You will have a hard time hiding 15 models. If you take less models your chances of doing damage in melee drops.
2017/08/08 11:28:32
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
You need orc level numbers of models, with orc level numbers of attacks to make melee successful. Not a viable option for BA. Its possible, but it costs a lot of points.
That depends entirely on your target. If you are simply thinking of a full frontal assault then you are probably right. If you are thinking about attack the flanks, bullying weaker units or forcing someone off an objective then melee is still viable for us.
We need to stop thinking of melee as the fastest and most efficient way to crush an entire army because you are right, it certainly is not that. Rather it is a tool in the box for attacking the enemy under specific conditions.
I think the overall point they are making is that they want to play a melee army, and it's not really viable. You can include melee in your balanced list, or as a token force in a heavy shooty list, but a full assault army, I think not. I actually played against a full assault Nids list today. It was very easy to out maneuver, and piecemeal shoot apart, and use my token melee force to clean up.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
2017/08/08 11:43:25
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
" You cannot reroll one die for the charge anymore, you must reroll both now."
I think you still can with command rerolls since it specifically says one die. But Orks and Black Templars have to do both. Doesn't really change much, though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/08 11:44:42
2017/08/08 12:22:03
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
I think you still can with command rerolls since it specifically says one die. But Orks and Black Templars have to do both. Doesn't really change much, though.
You are right. I misunderstood the update 1.1 of the rulebook. So, you still can reroll a single die from the charge. If one die is a 5+ your chance is at least 50% making it.
2017/08/08 22:33:53
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
brokbrok wrote: Full disclosure, I don't know anything cause I haven't had a chance to play yet, but shouldn't melee work just fine in this addition if you have a properly balanced force? Of course you shouldn't shoot something you're about to charge if it's going to lose you the charge, but you have the option to shoot a different target in this addition so your guns aren't wasted.
There are a number of factors working against melee this edition.
-Overwatch is not only still here, but can be attempted by every unit, even vehicles, old blast weapons etc, and they can overwatch every unit that charges until one makes it in. It's all fun and games until a quad las predator hits multiple times on overwatch against your furioso dread.
-Units that don't like the combat can waltz right on outta there. This means against any target you want to hit, you get one turn of swings. You no longer get to stick in and fight it out unless your opponent is happy to let you, which is probably bad news for your dudes. In older editions you could expect combat BAMF's like Dante to get their swings twice if they made it in. Now just once, and getting into combat and then being left there most likely put you in a more compromising position than you'd like.
-Screening blob units are very powerful right now, due to an extreme lack of weapons and units that can get them out of the way efficiently. You would think "flamers and blasts" naturally, until you play against say, conscripts, and have a flamer roast one dude and a rapid fire battle cannon drop like 3. And since you can't get them out of the way, melee guys either waste themselves jumping into the screen, or chill until an unacceptably late time in the game when you've finally got them out of the way. At that point, the damage has been done, and your melee force is a day late and dollar short, assuming they're even still alive.
-Cover is harder to get and does less. Melee used to be a relevant solution to knocking out weak guys who had obnoxious cover saves, assuming you weren't playing one of the several armies that could ignore it. Now people rarely rely on those types of units, so via supply and demand, the bully units that always wanted to go after them are mostly out of a job. In addition, cover being more difficult to grab hurts melee units trying to make it to ranged units, but doesn't hurt ranged units who are facing down melee units.
-A minor point, but the unit that you got to does still get to smack you back, sometimes before you swing depending on the CP situation or their abilities. This is another thorn in the side of the old "bully" units, as they tend to be just a little stronger than their targets, and after being whittled, can very realistically lose in melee.
-Any gun that used to be twin-linked is now deadlier. And depending on the melee unit in question, any amount of AP is now deadlier.
-It's easier to make a good shooting formation get buffs from characters than it is to get a melee group to access similar buffs while also trying to pile in and swing with as much as possible.
Because of the way melee works now, it's not really that inaccurate to view it as a shooting phase where all your "guns" have 1" range. A marine with a chainsword for example is throwing 2 s4 ap- swings, which is the exact same damage output as a bolter at 12".
The end result of the current rule set is that melee units that do not hit like trucks are very...questionable in their usefulness. The role of "pestering and tying up enemy units" hardly exists anymore, so chaff melee units like assault marines are having existential crises. And with shooting power rising, even good melee units are forced to answer a very plain question. Can you reliably get to the enemy suffering no more than 1 shooting phase and 1 overwatch, and then will you kill what you hit? If the answer is no, on the shelf it goes.
Dear Niv your analysis is outstanding and really explains very well why 8th edition CaC still sucks unless you have god-like troops such as berserkers who can literally wipe out an entire unit.
Even if one plays let's say 2 units of DC and lemartes you still only have 30% chance to make it into combat and if you fail you are starring at a lot of points who ll be utterly smashed and even if you charge we dont deal enough damage to wipe out the enemy unit. Company veterans with combi-plasma and either power sword or stormshield are so much better!
Since I removed all my CaC units I started to win a couple of matches (vs death guard and vs necron). A razorback with TL assault cannon and 5 assault marines outclass both DC and SG by a mile and the above mentioned company vetetans are, according to me, the best unit we have right now in our index.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/08 22:35:46
2017/08/08 22:50:59
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
Then you're not making the best use of your list, and IMO barring your local meta being different from the one here locally you're going to lose a lot.
Marines pay for being good at shooting and being good at assault. Use your full potential, or you will always be inefficient.
Given support: Three devastator squads can't take down a conscript squad in one turn of shooting. Three supported assault squads can't do it in one turn of assault. But three supported tactical squads can very much do it in one turn of rapid fire shooting and a charge.
Think about that. Most people dismiss the tactical squad, yet of the three basic squads it's the most efficient way to deal large numbers of wounds. This may not be true for BA-- perhaps death company is for BA, after all DC are a unique thing. Haven't really done the math for the various ways you can kit out BA, after all. But you should always know to yourself that if all you're doing it shooting, you're wasting points, even if you're slapping down an army of devastators.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact let's see... idle musing on my part so I'm gonna put this in spoilers.
Spoiler:
Roughly equivalent in points (10 points less) than the 3 flamer/combiflamer tacticals + lieutenant + captain + rhino combo I came up with...
Vanguard detachment, chaplain w/croz and bp, 3 death company w/PSword/Boltgun each, 2 Rhinos.
Shooting: Assuming Rhinos forgo shooting in order to pop smoke the turn before, thus making sure at least one survives.
Total average around 40 wounds vs conscripts. Not quite as efficient as fully supported tacticals due to lack of flamer equivalents (3.5 auto-hits per flamer rerolling 1s to-wound is superior to a boltgun in damage), but still devastating. Spend 84 points to get power axes and a sanguinary priest in there and you wipe them out in one turn due to upgrading to S6 while still ignoring armor (unlike power mauls, the other way to get to S6).
I will grant this is very much an in-the-vacuum mathhammer. Just demonstrating the point of making good use of our entire statline, not just part of it.
Compare that to an equal number of points of devastators. 5 dev squads with 4 hbs each, all firing from max distance-- 22.222 unsaved wounds. Granted, this is unfair; the heavy bolter is really not meant to take down T3 models but rather T4 ones. But barring the ML or the grav cannon-- both of which also come with a substantial increase in price-- it's the most efficient one devs get. It's weight of hits that really wears down hordes. Mind you this is pulled from various mathhammers I did vs conscripts because of the long-ass freaking debate with people whining about conscripts, but them's the breaks.
... which is to say, unlike khornate berserkers, blood angels need to rely on shooting to assist their melee, and melee to assist their shooting. They can do a startling level of damage if they don't forget that they're still generalists, far more than they'd be able to do if they rushed forward focusing on assault or stayed back focusing on shooting. Use every part of your statline and you'll do a lot better.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/08 23:46:09
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/08/08 23:49:27
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
niv-mizzet wrote: Because of the way melee works now, it's not really that inaccurate to view it as a shooting phase where all your "guns" have 1" range. A marine with a chainsword for example is throwing 2 s4 ap- swings, which is the exact same damage output as a bolter at 12".
Well put, I think this is something that GW has misunderstood when setting the pts cost for BA melee options. Melee units/weapons are discounted in terms of the potential damage output once you get close, but for BA they are generally not discounted enough to account for the disadvantages of extremely short ranged weapons. If forcing enemy units into melee had more intrinsic value then this would be fine, but your post details why this isn't the case.
2017/08/09 00:17:08
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
Only if they don't make use of their entire statline.
Like I demonstrated, if you DO use the entire statline you are capable of doing things other lists aren't.
But that would require playing like Space Marines instead of wanting to play like orks or eldar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/09 00:33:45
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/08/09 00:58:44
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
Only if they don't make use of their entire statline.
Like I demonstrated, if you DO use the entire statline you are capable of doing things other lists aren't.
But that would require playing like Space Marines instead of wanting to play like orks or eldar.
Not in practice. Your opponent has a lot to say about this issue. As I said, marines have ALWAYS had this problem, and they've really tended towards low or middle tier because of it.
2017/08/09 01:03:25
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
Martel732 wrote: Not in practice. Your opponent has a lot to say about this issue.
No gak, really? Gee wizz willy wonkers batman, I never would have figured that out on my own.
Don't try to pretend you don't have agency in how you play in order to absolve yourself of responsibility for your losses.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/08/09 01:19:41
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying it that it's trivial to exploit the dual nature of marines. Specialist lists make you fight their melee to keep their shooters shooting. This usually works out historically because the throw weight of marine lists is usually quite poor.
BA were better than marines in 5th because we could better specialize in that edition. BA were worse in 6th/7th because we had not strong formations or deathstars, which were other ways to get around the weakness of being a generalist.
The intercessor is actually a tiny step in the right direction, but they still fail.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/09 01:21:16
2017/08/09 01:26:08
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
Martel732 wrote: What I'm saying it that it's trivial to exploit the dual nature of marines.
It's just as easy to exploit the weaknesses of specialist lists. You choose not to because of your defeatist attitude and instead ask the world to be given of you. FFS, before 8th edition finally gave Sisters a much needed buff, Sisters were far below Marines, yet the Sisters tactica was still focused on how to use what we have to try to win and improve our chances of winning. Listening to you, you'd think Marines never have ever had a good chance of winning, which is redonkulous.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/09 01:31:14
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/08/09 01:39:12
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
Sisters were better than BA in 6/7th. Don't believe otherwise. They'd have been better than the other marines too without gimmicks.
What part of low/middle tier did you not get? That's plenty of winning power. Just not enough to get through the average tournament. I saw basically no vanilla marine lists doing well in 5th. GW "fixed" this with some of the worst methods available.
BA were solid garbage tier in 6th/7th. That's because the good marine units in 7th weren't marines, and BA didn't get them. BA had to try to win with actual marines, which was laughable in 6th/7th. That's where the defeatism comes from. Looks like little has changed, really except the floor is not as low as it was. Which helps, but there are no real good options in the current meta for BA. Either IG or Mechdar will roll your BA list. You can't compete with both. I'm not completely convinced that BA can hang with IG even with a tailored list, but I'm assuming here they can.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/09 01:48:06
2017/08/09 02:14:44
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
Anyway, my statement still stands, and your doomsaying isn't really represented very well in the competitive field.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/08/09 03:20:23
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
He's not wrong. I did a LOT of tourney testing and play in 7th. Properly built sisters were terrifying, especially when you could have the flesh tearers drop pod rental service throw down your rending heavy flamers and ignore cover meltas that, unlike marines, didn't bother throwing points at stats that wouldn't matter, so you could afford a very decent size army to support them.
Being the same effective durability against all the s6 spam, more durable against ap3, and having the same firepower, with the option to go more focused and be more efficient with that firepower, all for a points decrease and having their melee go from awful to slightly more awful made them better than rank and file marines at event tables. Just another occurrence of specializing defeating generalizing. The only reason you didn't see more of them is, despite the myths, every tourney player ever does NOT have spare mountains of cash for the game just to go try and win a few hundred bucks at an event or two. (Which could still be wrecked by bad matchup/dice luck.) Well two reasons actually. The second being: If you are willing to drop some bills meta-chasing, why would you not just go for the top table stuff like riptide trios and a bunch of wolves and bikers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/09 10:12:38
Of course i'm wrong. I really haven't played ba since the 90s and i really don't carefully consider lists or game turns. I'm just looking for something to blame my losses on. That's totally it. This thread is full of ba players just laying the wood to ig players and i'm just not willing to adapt. Just like i didn't try 15+ different lists last edition trying to adapt to eldar/tau/demons. I need to get with the program and netlist all those top ba lists.
2017/08/09 15:49:12
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
So anyway, I like the idea of DC with bolt guns instead of doing that tactical squad math you mentioned earlier.
Company vets and vanguard vets are so much better than assault marines and cost basically the same in this edition.
As for conscription wrapping, I agree that we have to find a way to generalize. That's just what BA are going to be pushed to. If you want to specialize there are better armies you can do with minimal paint swapping.
I think the issue is the focus on alpha striking. If you listen to the FLG podcast on the BAO meta. The winner talks about his focus on surviving the first turn. There's probably something in the idea of bringing enough dakka to severely hurt the enemy bubble wrapping so you can get the deep strikes in subsequent turns and lay down the hurt. That's all the guy did with his list, he would create openings and then drop a plasma squad in to take out valuable targets. BA are totally capable of that, with the addition of tying up the shooting of units as well. Of course if you try and alpha strike it's going to backfire, this would be a terribly boring edition if alpha strike melee was reliable.
2017/08/09 16:40:23
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
I definitely think 1-2 units depstriking late in the game is more viable than 5+ on turn 1, as good lists are going to have some kind of bubble wrap. Playing maelstrom objectives also helps a lot, since it forces people to move up and leave things open to deepstrike.
2017/08/09 17:18:25
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
brokbrok wrote: So anyway, I like the idea of DC with bolt guns instead of doing that tactical squad math you mentioned earlier.
Every time I do the math, Death Company with boltguns and power weapons (either swords or axes for most applicability, but a single TH is a good choice for anti-tank power even at the current price) shows itself to be an amazingly versatile unit (the TH marine can be the one throwing the grenade, so it doesn't reduce your shooting too much anyway!)
Boltguns cost zero points after all, but allow a five-man DC squad to have the same bolter firepower as a tactical squad. The cheap power weapons along with the DC special rules then allow them to function as a superb assault squad, especially after a good shooting phase. Add in a Rhino (one per two squads), Razor (with the ability to carry an HQ as well) or jump packs, and they become mobile enough to matter.
As another note, I'd actually pick rhinos over jump packs, for three reasons; first is it makes it easier for your force to go first, second is SM vehicles can pop smoke, making them survivable on the way over to the enemy, and third is the rhino can then charge first in order to absorb overwatch, allowing for no-risk assaults. Rhinos, especially on the turn they pop smoke, are actually extremely durable. Sure they got a lot more costly, but they're worth every point.
But if you do go for jump packs, one thing you might consider is some barebones jump ASM squads or stormraven-carried assault dreadnoughts to absorb overwatch for your death company. Because you want to make sure your DC make it to combat unharmed, or you're wasting points on those power weapons.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/08/09 17:36:45
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/08/09 22:07:11
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
brokbrok wrote: So anyway, I like the idea of DC with bolt guns instead of doing that tactical squad math you mentioned earlier.
Every time I do the math, Death Company with boltguns and power weapons (either swords or axes for most applicability, but a single TH is a good choice for anti-tank power even at the current price) shows itself to be an amazingly versatile unit (the TH marine can be the one throwing the grenade, so it doesn't reduce your shooting too much anyway!)
Boltguns cost zero points after all, but allow a five-man DC squad to have the same bolter firepower as a tactical squad. The cheap power weapons along with the DC special rules then allow them to function as a superb assault squad, especially after a good shooting phase. Add in a Rhino (one per two squads), Razor (with the ability to carry an HQ as well) or jump packs, and they become mobile enough to matter.
As another note, I'd actually pick rhinos over jump packs, for three reasons; first is it makes it easier for your force to go first, second is SM vehicles can pop smoke, making them survivable on the way over to the enemy, and third is the rhino can then charge first in order to absorb overwatch, allowing for no-risk assaults. Rhinos, especially on the turn they pop smoke, are actually extremely durable. Sure they got a lot more costly, but they're worth every point.
But if you do go for jump packs, one thing you might consider is some barebones jump ASM squads or stormraven-carried assault dreadnoughts to absorb overwatch for your death company. Because you want to make sure your DC make it to combat unharmed, or you're wasting points on those power weapons.
I agree, it does seem more and more pointless to run pistols over boltguns on DC now, although my biggest grip is all my DC are modeled with BP/CCW already and the models don't come in such a way short of hacking them them up to make them wysiwyg.
So on the rhino over JP front, reason number 1 is going to be somewhat less a factor after the announcement today, which basically just adopts the +1 to go first rules that all the tournaments are. agreed on 2, just have to hold out hope that we get rules or maybe a psychic power to help JP marines survivability. Agreed on 3, but again, we've seen rules/gear/traits, such as the ravenguard stuff, that doesn't allow overwatch, so maybe we get something like that.
Unfortunately, the last time I remember BA being even remotely viable as a jump pack army was when DC had 5+ FnP, furious charge was +1 str +1I, and even then it wasn't top tier, and razor spam was still better.
The reason I started playing BA in the first place was because I love JPs and they were the JP army, and I feel like BAJP armies need some major overhaul/help to them become relevant. I don't really have any faith in GW as they haven't been able to write fair/balanced/decent rules, like ever, so I assume we'll get more of the same. This might come from the fact that my main army is Deathwing and they've been gak on in almost every edition since i started in 2nd edition really.
2017/08/09 22:18:11
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
jcd386 wrote: I definitely think 1-2 units depstriking late in the game is more viable than 5+ on turn 1, as good lists are going to have some kind of bubble wrap. Playing maelstrom objectives also helps a lot, since it forces people to move up and leave things open to deepstrike.
If you don't deep strike by turn 3 in matched play you're auto dead, no leaving peeps off the table for last turn objective grabbing anymore. But holding off for a turn 3 drop in some situations can be useful yes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/09 22:18:22
2017/08/09 23:21:46
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
bobafett012 wrote: So on the rhino over JP front, reason number 1 is going to be somewhat less a factor after the announcement today, which basically just adopts the +1 to go first rules that all the tournaments are.
Link to said announcement? Haven't seen it and couldn't find it on a quick scan of news and blogs.
bobafett012 wrote: The reason I started playing BA in the first place was because I love JPs and they were the JP army
They still are the JP army. Unfortunately BA are an index still and not a codex, so their JP army isn't as good as it should be.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/08/10 02:32:16
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
bobafett012 wrote: So on the rhino over JP front, reason number 1 is going to be somewhat less a factor after the announcement today, which basically just adopts the +1 to go first rules that all the tournaments are.
Link to said announcement? Haven't seen it and couldn't find it on a quick scan of news and blogs.
bobafett012 wrote: The reason I started playing BA in the first place was because I love JPs and they were the JP army
They still are the JP army. Unfortunately BA are an index still and not a codex, so their JP army isn't as good as it should be.
Give everyone objective secured option, flyer units don't hold objectives at all, and whoever finishes first just gets +1 to the roll off, but people can still seize the initiative.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
2017/08/10 02:57:54
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
Been playing a couple games a week since 8th was released. Started in an escalation league at 500 that went to 2,000 at the local GW and now I've been playing in the Konor Campaign at 2,000 points. Here's what I've been running at 2,000:
I'm redoing my army for 8th Edition so this isn't entirely optimized. Ideally I would want another Troops unit in here for the extra 3 Command Points. I run Mephiston, Corbulo, the Assault Squad, and the Death Company Dread in the Storm Raven. Assault Squad definitely isn't optimal compared to Death Company or Vanguard Vets, but with Meph giving the unit a 4+ invulnerable, Corbulo giving everyone +1 Strength and +1 attack on a roll of 6 and resurrecting Assault Marines or healing Meph with a 4+ rerollable, they are a very tough nut to crack.
Meph is an absolute beast. He's killed a Knight, a couple Gorkanuts, Berzerkers, Deff Dreads, War Bosses, and a ton of other stuff. He's a must include for me. I typically fly the Raven in close on turn 1 and unload the payload turn 2. Death Company typically Deep Strike at the end of turn 2 or turn 3 to mop up. I don't normally try and assault out of Deep Strike. Both Lemmy and the DC never both make the charge which sucks, so I deploy out of LOS or in an area where everything is crowded. Death Company took a bit of a hit with Feel No Pain dropping to a 6+, but they still draw a TON of fire and do the job with Lemmy around. I have a good amount of firepower to deal with most stuff. I've only had one bad loss to a Ynnari tournament list getting tabled in turn 3 (Dark Reapers w/ Soulburst are gross and 1 shotted my Raven and Dread turn 1), but otherwise all the games I've played in have been wins or super close at the end. I've been pretty happy with how this has been working out.
I'm working on another version of this list where I add Primaris Marines. Going to add a Captain, a Lieutenant, Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Reivers. I'll post that list once I get all the models done and I give it a try. This thread is pretty thin compared to some of the other tactics threads so I thought I'd jump in and add my 2 cents. I'm curious what has been working for other people.
–The Harrower Artist, Game Designer, and Wargame Veteran
http://dedard.blogspot.com
2017/08/10 02:59:08
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
bobafett012 wrote: So on the rhino over JP front, reason number 1 is going to be somewhat less a factor after the announcement today, which basically just adopts the +1 to go first rules that all the tournaments are.
Link to said announcement? Haven't seen it and couldn't find it on a quick scan of news and blogs.
Coyote got it. Warhammer community site releases a lot of info almost everyday, most of the blogs and such just put up the stuff they release.
Melissia wrote: They still are the JP army. Unfortunately BA are an index still and not a codex, so their JP army isn't as good as it should be.
Not really, every SM army can do the exact same thing with detachments at this point, many of which can even do it better.... All the other editions saw regular assault squads being unlocked as troops, which very few, if any, other chapters could do. On top of that, since we actually had to use a force org that required troops choices, it made them a decent investment to take, plus they weren't terrible either.. We currently have zero reason to run regular assault squads, they basically got nerfed fairly heavily. We used to get 3 attacks per model on the charge with them, now we're down to 2 and that's pretty devestating considering DC and vanguard have more attacks, far better weapon options for close to the same cost, and that CC as a whole is, again for another edition, not great. Objective secured will be worthless for them because they just get shot to pieces out of CC and aren't really worth a damn in CC.
So yeah, you can hope the codex will fix the myriad of issues we have with our army currently, which are mostly the same issues we had in 7th edition, 6th edition, and part of 5th edition. I didn't play BA before that so I can't speak prior, I played deathwing.
2017/08/10 03:08:40
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
jcd386 wrote: I definitely think 1-2 units depstriking late in the game is more viable than 5+ on turn 1, as good lists are going to have some kind of bubble wrap. Playing maelstrom objectives also helps a lot, since it forces people to move up and leave things open to deepstrike.
If you don't deep strike by turn 3 in matched play you're auto dead, no leaving peeps off the table for last turn objective grabbing anymore. But holding off for a turn 3 drop in some situations can be useful yes.
Yeah, i guess i consider turn 2 or 3 to be pretty late in the game, lol.
I think for BA a unit of 10 or so DC and Lemartes in some kind of mech list can be very effective.
2017/08/10 09:51:49
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
Alright folks I'm on holiday and this afternoon I'm going to try to save the planet of Konor from a robot invasion (necrons).
We're going to play at 100 (he has a 101 list so mine is 101 aswel) power level and here is what I'm going to bring:
Outrider detachment
Captain, JP, relic blade and combiplasma
3x assault squads each with 2x plasmagun, sergent with plasma pistol and power axe
3x razorback with TL assault cannon
Vanguard Detachment
Lemartes
2 squads of DC (5 each) with boltgun, JP, 1x PF and 4x power axes
2 squads of Company veterans with JP, combi-plasma, ss
2 x predators, auto-cannon, lascannon sponsons
Lemartes will be my warlord and I will give him the +1 attack trait so that he ll make 7 attacks on the charge! (if he manages to reach them lol)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm back from the game and I m quite disappointed because I've been utterly destroyed by the necron player. At the end of the game I had 1 predator with a single wound left and a razorback with 6 wounds, while he still had 2x 10 man immortal squad a spider and both his HQ's.
My impressions after 10 games are the following:
assault squads are too weak even with the special weapons, what shall I replace them with?
DC never pay their points back. They only killed a single spider and then died.
LEMARTES is a beast he destroyed the necron flyer all by himself but what s the point of taking him if I'm benching the DC?
Company veterans with combi-plasma and ss are the real MVP, they obliterated a full squad of immortals in cover and then took off some wounds from the monolith.
I didn't bring the stormraven this game but I think that at least 1 is a must since she brings a lot of dakka.
The predators are really good but the quantum shielding makes you cry xD.
Does anyone of you tried out the land raider? Was thinking about using the classic one in my next game.
I will also replace my DC with vanguard veterans, what is the best load out for CC weapons? I was thinking claws th and SS, relic blade and ss on the sergent.
Looking for your precious feed baack,
cheers
Spado
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/10 17:11:35
2017/08/10 18:57:29
Subject: Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.
I'd replace the assault squads with vanguard vets then run them the same way you did before. More attacks, sparklier helmets, minimal points shuffle.
You did great with the company vets, I kit them out like they were blood angel sternguards. Assault squads are really just a chaff unit now that you can minimal kit and use for board control.
I don't think you should drop the DC, just reprioritize them to being bullies and anti horde. Anything above a t4 youd want to send the company vets and tank guns after.
I'd be interested to hear if you have land raider success. I stopped bringing termies in 5th cause I'm an above average 1 roller.
20000+ points
