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2018/05/26 22:43:40
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Ugh, yes, not only are they ugly, but the arms never line up. Those same scout models are from 3rd ed, if I recall. I bought a box to replace my mohawked 2nd ed metal guys long long ago.
2018/05/26 23:12:49
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Well the Lias ability doesn't work with aggressors sfts tactics, which is I think what he wants to do. So you really are just paying more for him. If you don't want a LT to come along as well then that seems fine, but I think shrike+lt is usually better for the sfts.
2018/05/26 23:23:15
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: T
Really hope we get a new Scout kit one day, cause the current ones are ugly as hell.
I put Scions heads on my scout bikes because I couldn't use them with those heads... Now they are a frequent choice to support the 2nd Company
Are you talking about the Helmetless ones or the helmets? I've been looking for Scout stand-ins myself but I hadn't seen anything that wowed me as of yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jcd386 wrote: Well the Lias ability doesn't work with aggressors sfts tactics, which is I think what he wants to do. So you really are just paying more for him. If you don't want a LT to come along as well then that seems fine, but I think shrike+lt is usually better for the sfts.
Yeah Aggressors can't travel with Lias, but you might want something else to. Devastators or Sternguard or Command Squads or even that Lt that was mentioned. I dunno. Up to all y'all. Can't make ya love Lias.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/26 23:25:09
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/26 23:38:38
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Or like i mentioned, not playing RG tactics.
For what purpose though? Everyone else does everything better. Only other chapter to play in the Vanilla codex is Ultramarines for Roboute. That's it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/27 00:50:21
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
I've recently switched to using a chapter master, and it's definitely worth it.
Full rerolls doesn't seem like much of a difference when you think about just rerolling 2s. It makes a massive difference when you've got things like damaged vehicles getting to reroll everything, and especially for overwatch. It's even a help dealing with things like Culexus assassins.
In future I'll definitely take a chapter master. I might take him as Pedro, but I think I prefer having my primaris captain with the fist of vengeance, 64 spare points, and the option to take storm of fire.
Among the many advantages that deathwatch now have is the availability of a 130 point watch master. He's an excellent buy at that price. Charging a 10-man primaris unit near one of these guys is going to be seriously unpleasant - especially when they can just wander off and shoot again in their turn.
2018/05/27 00:57:29
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Or like i mentioned, not playing RG tactics.
For what purpose though? Everyone else does everything better. Only other chapter to play in the Vanilla codex is Ultramarines for Roboute. That's it.
Ultramarines plays the rapid-fire game better. Getting within 12" for the plasma double-tap and not worrying about being touched for combat stopping you from shooting next turn. Being within 12" negates the RG tactics, and being touched negated any fire output for non-UM. While Chapter master + Lt. is Guilliman-lite for less than half the points.
Plus, like others have mentioned, customizeable wargear setup for the characters involved. There's plenty of reasons to not take a named chapter master.
IMO the 3 CPs for Chapter Master is CPs well spent, esp. since a direct comparison would be Scions of Guilliman, 1 point, for 1 unit, for 1 turn. Chapter Master grants full rerolls to all units within range, every turn. For 3CPs, much better value if you're building/playing for it. The opportunity cost per CP is a good buy.
What units are actually getting into rapid fire plasma range and then somehow surviving a full turn off shooting and close combat so they can fall back? I've played a fair amount of Roboute lists and I'm not sure I've ever had that happen.
2018/05/27 04:03:23
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Well, in the past I've done a lot of drop podding with Tacs and Devs. The beta rules have stymied that a bit and I'm working through it, though basically every time I play against Tyranids I get massive value out of falling back out of combat. Chaos too, although I haven't seen them on the table locally in a while.
But basically, because I do power armor swarm there's always models getting into and out of combat because close range is where they tend to get the most value, imo. Rhinos, razors or pods coupled with mass advance, or gunlining against cc types. The UM tactics let me do that, while I'd have to be a lot more careful about unit proximities playing something else.
I'm definitely sure I want the chapter master bonus. Whether to pay CPs or points for it I am still undecided. Call it 50pts for 3CP is a good deal, so in principle I like putting Shrike back. But ugh, I just got my new list idea to that point where I feel like pulling anything either breaks something or frees up way too many points.
Heavy Support
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts] - 3x Mortar
Total: [121 PL, 2000pts]
Some potential swap options to get Shrike in by pulling a hammer captain, a Scout heavy bolter, and...:
1. Remove the Astropath. - He's a cheap deny and smite equiv. I'm tired of playing with 0 and wanted to try being able to deny a few things.
2. Remove the Mortar team. - This unit gives something for the Commander to order with Cadian rerolls.
3. Downgrade a Venerable to a regular Dread or a Dev squad. - I don't like regulars since Vens get the 6+++ and BS2. I've got no major problem with Devs, but they do shoot worse and need a good perch.
4. Pull 1 Aggressor. - Easy remove, but that's giving up 9% of my Aggressor shooting to get +14% Aggressor shooting.
5. I could pull a whole Venerable and add Shrike. That gives me 2 hammer captains for counter charge while Shrike still sits with the rerolls. I like this CC support, but the Venerables are a good chunk of my anti tank.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/27 05:39:19
2018/05/27 09:58:39
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Are you talking about the Helmetless ones or the helmets? I've been looking for Scout stand-ins myself but I hadn't seen anything that wowed me as of yet.
The regular Scion helmet heads. I use the plain helmets for scouts and the one with a skull for the sergeant. It looks waaay better, as I said, now I actually like the models
"Eventually, everything falls to a bolter"
2018/05/27 18:54:28
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Among the many advantages that deathwatch now have is the availability of a 130 point watch master. He's an excellent buy at that price. Charging a 10-man primaris unit near one of these guys is going to be seriously unpleasant - especially when they can just wander off and shoot again in their turn.
That was my original thought when I heard about Deathwatch. Go RG+DW. Instead of SftS Aggressors and doing the 1cp RG detachment, do a DW patrol with a Watch Master and 2 kill teams to DS in. That'd be about the same firepower as the Aggressors, the ability to fall back from combat, and the +1 to wound rolls. Downside was it occurred to me that if all my dakka is in the DS, then I don't have horde killing on the table to clear space for the DW to land. A killteam screened out of rapid fire range would be a horrible waste.
As to my RG list tweaking, sigh, I'm thinking best route is to drop a Venerable...I hate doing it to a model I just assembled and losing those high str shots, but the Venerable gets me enough points to do something else as well as put in Shrike.
Edit: Maybe I drop 1 Captain, 1 Venerable and swap a gun on the other. Then add Shrike and 5 Hellblasters. That's basically trading 4 BS 2 lascannons for 5 plasma incinerators, which isn't a bad deal as long as I can rapid fire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/27 19:17:37
2018/05/27 20:29:36
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Or like i mentioned, not playing RG tactics.
For what purpose though? Everyone else does everything better. Only other chapter to play in the Vanilla codex is Ultramarines for Roboute. That's it.
Ultramarines plays the rapid-fire game better. Getting within 12" for the plasma double-tap and not worrying about being touched for combat stopping you from shooting next turn. Being within 12" negates the RG tactics, and being touched negated any fire output for non-UM. While Chapter master + Lt. is Guilliman-lite for less than half the points.
Plus, like others have mentioned, customizeable wargear setup for the characters involved. There's plenty of reasons to not take a named chapter master.
IMO the 3 CPs for Chapter Master is CPs well spent, esp. since a direct comparison would be Scions of Guilliman, 1 point, for 1 unit, for 1 turn. Chapter Master grants full rerolls to all units within range, every turn. For 3CPs, much better value if you're building/playing for it. The opportunity cost per CP is a good buy.
Scions is terrible though because it's super redundant with the HQs you're already running AND Wisdom Of The Ancients (which doesn't get used in the first place).
However, that's one of the primary weaknesses with the Vanilla Codex is the HQ section. Outside the Lt (who doesn't have a named counterpart at all), all the named versions are better for the price, so who honestly cares about customization? In fact, let's take a look at the whole Roboute thing you made mention of. Roboute is most definitely more durable than the two HQ's for the price, and on top of that offers a Captain aura for 12", so he's more likely to affect more units. You also have the morale thing but nobody cares about that.
Now let's look at Calgar. You can customize a Captain with things, sure. However, those 200 points go straight to:
1. Power Fists with no penalty to hit
2. Master Crafted Storm Bolter
3. 2 extra Command Points if he's the Warlord for your silly Scions Strategem
4. An extra attack
5. An extra wound
6. The effect from The Shield Eternal
If you want straight up nothing on the Captain, sure. Just do barebones Teeth Of Terra and go nuts. However, what Captain are you making that's even comparable? The moment you start buying ANYTHING though, you are gonna be compared to the named counterpart, which is something NONE of the other codices have to deal with for their generic HQ dudes.
The only downside I see there is being locked to the Ultramarines Warlord Trait, but that's one of the better ones so...
Among the many advantages that deathwatch now have is the availability of a 130 point watch master. He's an excellent buy at that price. Charging a 10-man primaris unit near one of these guys is going to be seriously unpleasant - especially when they can just wander off and shoot again in their turn.
That was my original thought when I heard about Deathwatch. Go RG+DW. Instead of SftS Aggressors and doing the 1cp RG detachment, do a DW patrol with a Watch Master and 2 kill teams to DS in. That'd be about the same firepower as the Aggressors, the ability to fall back from combat, and the +1 to wound rolls. Downside was it occurred to me that if all my dakka is in the DS, then I don't have horde killing on the table to clear space for the DW to land. A killteam screened out of rapid fire range would be a horrible waste.
As to my RG list tweaking, sigh, I'm thinking best route is to drop a Venerable...I hate doing it to a model I just assembled and losing those high str shots, but the Venerable gets me enough points to do something else as well as put in Shrike.
Edit: Maybe I drop 1 Captain, 1 Venerable and swap a gun on the other. Then add Shrike and 5 Hellblasters. That's basically trading 4 BS 2 lascannons for 5 plasma incinerators, which isn't a bad deal as long as I can rapid fire.
The Ven Dread isn't a good pick for AT anyway. You're not losing much.
Are you talking about the Helmetless ones or the helmets? I've been looking for Scout stand-ins myself but I hadn't seen anything that wowed me as of yet.
The regular Scion helmet heads. I use the plain helmets for scouts and the one with a skull for the sergeant. It looks waaay better, as I said, now I actually like the models
Mind showing those off? If they look good enough I might just buy the Scout kit and then grab some Scions and do the same thing myself.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/27 20:31:30
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/27 21:09:20
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Yeah, as long as I can rapid fire those Hellblasters at least once, they're gonna be just as good AT and really only at the cost of the 1CP to SftS them.
Why don't you think the Venerable is good AT? 156-190pts gets you some combo of 2 twin autocannons, 2 twin lascannons, or 1 each. That's about the same price as a Dev squad, but BS2 and one of the few ways to even get an autocannon. It's easier to be shot, but then has 6+++ to compensate. The Contemptor Mortis is a bit more efficient overall with even more survivability for +20pts, but adds nothing for shooting power. Dreads can also grant a reroll 1s to themselves if necessary. The devs are probably not going to be in range of Shrike's reroll.
The scion heads sound tempting for scouts, way back before open allies I was considering just using full scion models as my scouts. Now I wouldn't due to confusion. But still, the thing with that kit is it isn't just the terrible heads, those bodies don't pose right and have a ridiculous amount of moulding lines everywhere. Mine are easily my worst assembled marine models and I'm definitely buying replacements if GW ever releases a new kit.
2018/05/27 22:16:26
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
My thinking is to maybe use dakka primaris squads alongside something else entirely for AT.
I actually think there might be some good synergy with the new IKs. A couple of knights and an Armiger look like they’ll come to around 1k. Then spend 1k on a DW battalion.
Not sure it’ll work to be honest. IG remain the obvious choice I think.
2018/05/28 06:18:11
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Or like i mentioned, not playing RG tactics.
For what purpose though? Everyone else does everything better. Only other chapter to play in the Vanilla codex is Ultramarines for Roboute. That's it.
Ultramarines plays the rapid-fire game better. Getting within 12" for the plasma double-tap and not worrying about being touched for combat stopping you from shooting next turn. Being within 12" negates the RG tactics, and being touched negated any fire output for non-UM. While Chapter master + Lt. is Guilliman-lite for less than half the points.
Plus, like others have mentioned, customizeable wargear setup for the characters involved. There's plenty of reasons to not take a named chapter master.
IMO the 3 CPs for Chapter Master is CPs well spent, esp. since a direct comparison would be Scions of Guilliman, 1 point, for 1 unit, for 1 turn. Chapter Master grants full rerolls to all units within range, every turn. For 3CPs, much better value if you're building/playing for it. The opportunity cost per CP is a good buy.
Scions is terrible though because it's super redundant with the HQs you're already running AND Wisdom Of The Ancients (which doesn't get used in the first place).
However, that's one of the primary weaknesses with the Vanilla Codex is the HQ section. Outside the Lt (who doesn't have a named counterpart at all), all the named versions are better for the price, so who honestly cares about customization? In fact, let's take a look at the whole Roboute thing you made mention of. Roboute is most definitely more durable than the two HQ's for the price, and on top of that offers a Captain aura for 12", so he's more likely to affect more units. You also have the morale thing but nobody cares about that.
Now let's look at Calgar. You can customize a Captain with things, sure. However, those 200 points go straight to:
1. Power Fists with no penalty to hit
2. Master Crafted Storm Bolter
3. 2 extra Command Points if he's the Warlord for your silly Scions Strategem
4. An extra attack
5. An extra wound
6. The effect from The Shield Eternal
If you want straight up nothing on the Captain, sure. Just do barebones Teeth Of Terra and go nuts. However, what Captain are you making that's even comparable? The moment you start buying ANYTHING though, you are gonna be compared to the named counterpart, which is something NONE of the other codices have to deal with for their generic HQ dudes.
The only downside I see there is being locked to the Ultramarines Warlord Trait, but that's one of the better ones so...
I actually like Calgar, but for something like 15-20 more points than Calgar you can get a Captain and Lt. Both with jump packs, Storm Bolters and Thunder Hammers and have:
1. More buffs
2. More wounds
3. More Attacks
4. Which do flat 3 damage
5. More maneuverability
6. Fill your battalion HQ requirement.
7. Freedom of Warlord Trait.
As for Guilliman, the buffs you're really looking for are still just 6", and he costs a Captain with some gear, a Lt. With some gear, plus an entire full and well equipped Devastator squad (imo muuuuch better value) AND you still need to buy more HQs for your Battalion or whatever because he's a Lord of War. If you're after CPs, for the price of Guilliman you could buy another battalion.
So no, i don't think the existence of named characters lock you in at all. If you're fine with what they offer, that's cool, but options are good, and something that synergizes more with your army/style is good.
I think shrike is only a no brain-er if you plan to have him be in the front with aggressors or something. If you just want a guy to sit back and make devs shoot better, I think a 3CP chapter master is okay. We have more CP now with the FAQ, so i don't see it as that pricey. I haven't ever had any of the other chapter masters other than Lias catch my eye.
The main thing Bobby G brings to the table is re-roll all wounds, which is incredible for lower strength guns and over-watch. He is also quite a beast in close combat. My issue with him lately is just being so expensive and not having RG tactics to grant me some durability, so my already smaller army dies much faster.
2018/05/28 08:40:38
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Mind showing those off? If they look good enough I might just buy the Scout kit and then grab some Scions and do the same thing myself.
PM me so I don't forget
"Eventually, everything falls to a bolter"
2018/05/28 22:03:23
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Or like i mentioned, not playing RG tactics.
For what purpose though? Everyone else does everything better. Only other chapter to play in the Vanilla codex is Ultramarines for Roboute. That's it.
Ultramarines plays the rapid-fire game better. Getting within 12" for the plasma double-tap and not worrying about being touched for combat stopping you from shooting next turn. Being within 12" negates the RG tactics, and being touched negated any fire output for non-UM. While Chapter master + Lt. is Guilliman-lite for less than half the points.
Plus, like others have mentioned, customizeable wargear setup for the characters involved. There's plenty of reasons to not take a named chapter master.
IMO the 3 CPs for Chapter Master is CPs well spent, esp. since a direct comparison would be Scions of Guilliman, 1 point, for 1 unit, for 1 turn. Chapter Master grants full rerolls to all units within range, every turn. For 3CPs, much better value if you're building/playing for it. The opportunity cost per CP is a good buy.
Scions is terrible though because it's super redundant with the HQs you're already running AND Wisdom Of The Ancients (which doesn't get used in the first place).
However, that's one of the primary weaknesses with the Vanilla Codex is the HQ section. Outside the Lt (who doesn't have a named counterpart at all), all the named versions are better for the price, so who honestly cares about customization? In fact, let's take a look at the whole Roboute thing you made mention of. Roboute is most definitely more durable than the two HQ's for the price, and on top of that offers a Captain aura for 12", so he's more likely to affect more units. You also have the morale thing but nobody cares about that.
Now let's look at Calgar. You can customize a Captain with things, sure. However, those 200 points go straight to:
1. Power Fists with no penalty to hit
2. Master Crafted Storm Bolter
3. 2 extra Command Points if he's the Warlord for your silly Scions Strategem
4. An extra attack
5. An extra wound
6. The effect from The Shield Eternal
If you want straight up nothing on the Captain, sure. Just do barebones Teeth Of Terra and go nuts. However, what Captain are you making that's even comparable? The moment you start buying ANYTHING though, you are gonna be compared to the named counterpart, which is something NONE of the other codices have to deal with for their generic HQ dudes.
The only downside I see there is being locked to the Ultramarines Warlord Trait, but that's one of the better ones so...
I actually like Calgar, but for something like 15-20 more points than Calgar you can get a Captain and Lt. Both with jump packs, Storm Bolters and Thunder Hammers and have:
1. More buffs
2. More wounds
3. More Attacks
4. Which do flat 3 damage
5. More maneuverability
6. Fill your battalion HQ requirement.
7. Freedom of Warlord Trait.
As for Guilliman, the buffs you're really looking for are still just 6", and he costs a Captain with some gear, a Lt. With some gear, plus an entire full and well equipped Devastator squad (imo muuuuch better value) AND you still need to buy more HQs for your Battalion or whatever because he's a Lord of War. If you're after CPs, for the price of Guilliman you could buy another battalion.
So no, i don't think the existence of named characters lock you in at all. If you're fine with what they offer, that's cool, but options are good, and something that synergizes more with your army/style is good.
1. Getting rerolls of everything to hit is better and more reliable when armies are looking for their -1 To Hit or you actually want to do anything with your Overwatch, which is kinda important for a gunline army like Ultramarines.
2. It's only a few more wounds and doesn't have the damage reduction ability, which is VERY clutch against D2 weapons (one of the most wanted) and D3 weapons (which need 4 total to kill him, which is the same for those two dudes total) and D6 (needing 3 hits to their 2).
Durability is only increased against D1 attacks, which nobody is gonna aim at Calgar and only at those dudes with a 3+ save.
3. I'll grant you more attacks for the total models, but it's only 3 more total attacks with a penalty to hit. The Captain is only hitting 75% of the time (for all intents and purposes) and Calgar is hitting a LOT more often.
4. I'm not gonna argue on damage.
5. These are guys for a gunline. I'd argue you're wasting points and you'd have a better case if you didn't buy the Jump Packs.
6. Doesn't really matter as I can meet the requirement otherwise with Guard and he gives a Command Point bonus the moment he's Warlord.
7. The Ultramarines trait is one of the only good ones though. Even if you had freedom, you pick it when playing Ultramarines. Your argument here makes no sense. Why does choice matter when you're gonna default to something anyway?
Also if you WERE that desperate for CP even after making Roboute your Warlord (along with him getting the trait anyway generating more)...Guard exists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/28 22:27:20
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/29 00:25:24
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
1. You misunderstand, this is chapter master bonus, plus lt. Bonus. Not different buffs, flat out more buffs.
2. Building your own guy allows him to take a storm shield, therefore relic, getting the same bonus on one of your models.
3. More attacks, doing more damage per hit. Hitting less, wounding more.
4. See 3.
5. Jump Packs for mobile counter-assault, or mobile gunline, or you don't have to buy them and yeah, then you're getting more damage output and more buffs for fewer points. Because yeah, options.
6. You're building a guard battalion? Go ahead then, not my taste.
7. It's good. Others are also good, there's no defaulting here. I could take "Imperiums Sword" on a Jump Pack, Thunderhammer Chapter Master and feel pretty good about it.
You keep on this like options and customization are bad. That's just a bizzare stance to take, sorry.
Insectum7 wrote: 1. You misunderstand, this is chapter master bonus, plus lt. Bonus. Not different buffs, flat out more buffs.
2. Building your own guy allows him to take a storm shield, therefore relic, getting the same bonus on one of your models.
3. More attacks, doing more damage per hit. Hitting less, wounding more.
4. See 3.
5. Jump Packs for mobile counter-assault, or mobile gunline, or you don't have to buy them and yeah, then you're getting more damage output and more buffs for fewer points. Because yeah, options.
6. You're building a guard battalion? Go ahead then, not my taste.
7. It's good. Others are also good, there's no defaulting here. I could take "Imperiums Sword" on a Jump Pack, Thunderhammer Chapter Master and feel pretty good about it.
You keep on this like options and customization are bad. That's just a bizzare stance to take, sorry.
1. Which is an insane commitment on command points. You might as well default to the Ultramarines trait at that point...
2. Which is one relic slot. You don't get an infinite amount of relics like last edition. This means Banner or Teeth Of Terra or Crusaders Helm aren't without a CP because you needed to default to protecting a character. However, Calgar needs less protection and is therefore more independent. This allows someone else to gain a relic and be more independent. What you show is the opposite of synergy.
3. Which really only matters if they're next to each other to give each other their buffs. Wasn't one of the bonuses being able to cover more ground?
4. No the Jump Packs are wasted points. The moment you try and make a less durable unit like that counter assault, they get shot and die. There's no gunline you can make in this codex that can fix that. Plus counter charge doesn't make sense anyway because of the Ultramarines countering that in the first place. Fall back and shoot something and then you can let
Calgar shoot or punch it. There is once again little synergy there.
5. I'm just saying Calgar takes care of any Command Point needs. A standard game is 1750-2000 points. You can get a Battalion + Something else with Calgar, meaning more points going to better units without tax, and at the same time still giving plenty if command points.
6. Except that IS the default because you just wasted 3 CP and youbneed to gain some back.
Once again I'll repeat: Customization is not bad. What's bad is that Marine HQ section is so bad you default to Special Characters because you get bonuses on top of those rules. None of the other Codices suffer this issue of Generic vs Special. None.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/29 04:09:01
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
You're making so many unfounded assumptions (like claiming a lack of synergy without knowing the rest of the army or intended tactics) at this point it's not worth the time to respond to. Others have already said why they use the chapter master upgrade, so when you say named characters are "default", you seem to be in an echo chamber of one.
I have been using the Primaris Captain with a Power Fist and I give him the Santic Halo plus currently SoF WLT. I also have a Primaris Lt and they work quite well together. I’ve recently added a Techmarine with combi-Plasma and ToF since he can take a chainsword. Cast MoH on him and he’s a real beast in melee. The BS2 plasma is quite nice too. I used to run Calgar he’s the next set of training wheels once your done using Bobby G. Honestly the generic HQ are fine and offer their own advantages.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/05/31 08:34:43
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Honour Guard [2 PL, 52pts] . Honour Guard: Power axe
. Honour Guard: Power axe
Sternguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 180pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant . . Special Issue Boltgun/Bolt Pistol: Special issue boltgun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter
++ Total: [108 PL, 1997pts] ++
I haven't gotten to do it yet, but I REALLY want my Sternguard to be near the Lieutenant, Pedro, and the Rhino Primaris(which would use it's Targeting Skull) just one time, so I can have them fire off 20 shots (rerolling misses, 5s and 6s add an additional shot because I would use Bolter Drill) and then turn around and drop Masterful Marksmanship (rerolling 1s because Lieutenant). Just one time. Just to see how many wounds they can put on something. I am really curious what the math would be on them shooting into a big blob of Orcs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/31 08:36:13
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Rhino Primaris is honestly a pretty bad deal. I would flatout remove it.
Get three Tarantula Sentry Guns and you can make a Brigade for much more CP.
Really? I know it is pricey at 170 pts, but it provides a decent bonus. I will look into alternatives in my models though. As for a Brigade, I am way short on Troops to pull that off. Taking the Rhino Primaris out necessitates another HQ as well. Any recommendations? I am leaning toward adding a Librarian.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/31 09:17:10
Haven't played my Ultramarines in a while, going to be playing them on Sunday. It's a competitive environment so i expect to get crushed, but will have fun regardless.
Here's what I'm planning on so far.
Battalion: Ultramarines HQ Chief Librarian Tigurius (Might of heroes, psychic fortress, null zone) Captain /w Jump Pack + Teeth of Terra relic
Fast Attack Inceptor Squad /w Double Assault Bolters
Heavy Devastator Squad with only one heavy - Heavy Bolter, Armorium Cherub Devastator Squad with only one heavy - Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub
Flyer Storm Raven Gunship /w Twin Assault Cannon, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers, Twin Multi-Meltas
Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment: Ultramarines Lord of War Roboute Guilliman
This leaves me 220 points to work with. The obvious choice would be to find a way to get 2 assault cannon razorbacks. Or i could just be totally awesome and another venerable dreadnought. Another thought I had was to bring another detachment and bring Celestine. It'd cost me -1 CP but who cares, I have 11 right now and get them back on a 5+.
Thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/31 18:22:57
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts 
