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 Primark G wrote:
Custodes are highly survivable and the best codex period for melee plus they have the best strategems. Get them stuck in and it’s game over.

They aren't the best at melee at all. Demons do melee better. Honestly, you can make a CSM army that is better in melee

Heck, the quirk of custodes melee has had me grinding my teeth against tau and just bouncing all the damage to drones. Not something, say, a unit of berzerkers has to worry much about.

Also... ummm... there's a lot of good stratagems. What, exactly, makes custodes' the 'best'?

I have been doing well versus Nidz. You should do more than three wounds to a tyrant if you charge it with a squad.

 Primark G wrote:
I have been doing well versus Nidz. You should do more than three wounds to a tyrant if you charge it with a squad.

You sure about that?

I use axes so yeah... hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s. Plus d3 damage. It is not rocket science.

Custodes axes are str 8?

Yeah plus they have the equivalent of VotLW for 1 CP.

How are you catching the Tyrant with a unit with axes? Or are they unwinged Tyrants?

From deep strike.

Also a squadron of three jetbikes can easily catch them...

12 attacks -> 10 hit + 2 (reroll) = 12

12 hits -> 4 wounds + 3 (reroll) = 7 wounds

HT takes 3-4 wounds.

You can pop the strategem to wound on +1 then:

12 hits -> 6 wounds + 3 (reroll) = 9 wounds

HT takes 4-5 wounds.

And of course don't forget 36 hurricane bolter shots...

 Primark G wrote:
From deep strike.

Also a squadron of three jetbikes can easily catch them...

12 attacks -> 10 hit + 2 (reroll) = 12

12 hits -> 4 wounds + 3 (reroll) = 7 wounds

HT takes 3-4 wounds.

You can pop the strategem to wound on +1 then:

12 hits -> 6 wounds + 3 (reroll) = 9 wounds

HT takes 4-5 wounds.

And of course don't forget 36 hurricane bolter shots...

A unit worth around 300pts only able to deal 40% wounds on a around 170pts model..... Is Custodes too weak or Nidz just too OP......

36 bolter shots...

30 hit

10 wound

3-4 more wounds

At this point the Tyrant is no longer a legitimate threat.

I'm not sure how relevant the effectiveness of custodes bikes vs hive tyrants is to this discussion of space marine tactics.

I actually find that my marines are pretty good at killing flyrants. I went up against 15 of them in two games at a tournament a couple of months back (one guy had 6, the other 9) and killed 12 of them. I beat the guy with 6 and drew against the guy with 9 - who won all of his other games that weekend.

I didn't do anything all that special to achieve this. I shot at them with lascannons, plasma incinerators and everything else I could lay my hands on. A top moment was when my captain (primaris guy with fist of vengeance) killed two of them in a turn, thanks to using the "honour the chapter" stratagem while backed up by null zone.

There are probably good reasons to take Custodes allies for marines, but I don't think flyrants are one of them. The flyrants' invulnerable saves make them pretty resistant to custodes in cc. I'm not at all sure what's the best way to get rid of them, though shooting them over and over again seems to get you there eventually.

Question are librarians actually worth taking at all and if so with what powers? Looking at the space marine powers compared to the chaos ones none of them seem particularly worth it? Im weighing up whether to keep my space marines as space marines or just convert them over to chaos to run a renegade chapter

I actually really rate Librarian powers - it's one of the only parts of the codex that doesn't suck.

Veil of time is a bit situational
Might of Heroes is absolute gold. It buffs a unit's S, T & A! Very flexible - drop it on a CC unit when their moment comes, or drop it on a big gun to raise it to T8 or 9. Especially useful on Leviathans and Land Raiders.
Psychi Scourge is also situational, but worth taking if you're going up against a low leadership army. Maybe.
Fury of the ancients is quite nice against MSU spam, but really, this is a power I never use.
Psychic Fortress is tactically finicky, but absolute gold against psyker heavy lists. Stick it on your speartip unit and shove it in their face, then watch half of one of their main sources of damage just plink off.
Null Zone might be the best power in the discipline. It paints a big honking target on every Librarian's back however, especially against Chaos players.

So yeah, three out of six are gold, and that's quite a good hit ratio compared to other disciplines (Hereticus excluded, as that thing is nuts.)

Might Of Heroes targets a model, not a unit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Might Of Heroes targets a model, not a unit.

Which is why it sucks. Null zone requires and 8 which is why it sucks. All the other powers suck.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Might Of Heroes targets a model, not a unit.

Which is why it sucks. Null zone requires and 8 which is why it sucks. All the other powers suck.

I disagree. Might of Heroes should be popped every turn on something big that the enemy wants to get rid of (like a dreadnought) for the +1 T, or on CC HQs like Primaris Captains or Shrike, or even veteran sergeants. Null Zone is amazing when it goes off, which is unfortunately rare. Psychic Fortress is very good on a unit with storm shields since they're the prime target for smite and have no defense against it.

Are they better than Chaos powers? No. Are they worth taking if you play Space Marines? Absolutely.

You need at least one Librarian as your anti psychic defense.

I also like the ultramarine relic for p defence in my um lists.

 Primark G wrote:
You need at least one Librarian as your anti psychic defense.

Not really. Librarians are not good value units. Most successful marine lists don't have them.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
You need at least one Librarian as your anti psychic defense.

Not really. Librarians are not good value units. Most successful marine lists don't have them.

Outside Tiggy of course, but that's because he is super special and can give something a -1 to hit on top of it all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
You need at least one Librarian as your anti psychic defense.

Not if you're Black Templars. Just deny a power at the correct time and you're gold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That or just get a Culexus.

I think that a Librarian's power depends very much on what he's buffing. I like might of heroes and null zone, but both should be viewed as buff spells.

Might of heroes needs a badass character to cast it on - or early on a big vehicle. Luckily my army features repulsors and a primaris captain with the fist of vengeance, so that's a result.

Meanwhile Null Zone is great defensively, if nasty stuff like flyrants and daemon primarchs keeps turning up in your deployment zone... unless they are Chronus flyrants of course. It doesn't always work, but with CPs for rerolls you've got a decent chance, and the difference it makes when it comes off is worth the risk that it won't.

I have to say, there's a pretty strong case for just taking a lieutenant instead of a Librarian. His buff to damage can be really huge, if he's got the right units around him, while the libby doesn't always work all that well.

Mandragola wrote:
I think that a Librarian's power depends very much on what he's buffing. I like might of heroes and null zone, but both should be viewed as buff spells.

Might of heroes needs a badass character to cast it on - or early on a big vehicle. Luckily my army features repulsors and a primaris captain with the fist of vengeance, so that's a result.

Meanwhile Null Zone is great defensively, if nasty stuff like flyrants and daemon primarchs keeps turning up in your deployment zone... unless they are Chronus flyrants of course. It doesn't always work, but with CPs for rerolls you've got a decent chance, and the difference it makes when it comes off is worth the risk that it won't.

I have to say, there's a pretty strong case for just taking a lieutenant instead of a Librarian. His buff to damage can be really huge, if he's got the right units around him, while the libby doesn't always work all that well.

There is also always the default Smite.

useful for when your enemy is also doing it and just to push the smite counter up by one. (if you play that rule)

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Question are librarians actually worth taking at all and if so with what powers? Looking at the space marine powers compared to the chaos ones none of them seem particularly worth it? Im weighing up whether to keep my space marines as space marines or just convert them over to chaos to run a renegade chapter

Although I generally agree that Space Marines don't have strong psychic presence in this edition. There might exists certain powers that are comparatively good, such as the "might of hero" which could make a close combat dread more tough and more punchy; "psychic fortress", as it could allow marine key units last longer against smite spam which is the bane of Space Marine; and the "Null Zone" of course.

Besides, raw, those buff power (Veil of Time, Might of Hero, Psychic Fortress) all works on keyword Adeptus Astartes. That means, you can give a pack of TWC reroll to charge and "always fight first unless enemy charges" (for the latter buff, is worth put on Wuflens as well). Or give that GMNDK Str7 base, which means he will wound most things on 2s without hammerhand on himself, frees up that power on other units that might it more.

Null Zone rocks and I bring Tiggy who usually gets it off.

Martel typical response - What about other chapters?

/rollseyes

So Tiggy is good. Not librarians. I was talking about librarians.

Tiggy is a Librarian. BA have Mephiston - I heard he is okay.

 Primark G wrote:
Tiggy is a Librarian. BA have Mephiston - I heard he is okay.

He aint my librarian.

Mephiston has some issues for sure, but neither are stock librarians, which I was referring to in my post. Nowhere did I mention special character librarians.

I find psychic defense to be a non-issue most games, since most psykers are pretty inefficient.

I run a nameless jump pack librarian every game, with Might of Heroes and Null Zone, sometimes swapping one out for Psychic Fortress, usually deep striking him along with Shrike and TH/SS Veterans. I find not only does it allow me to deny Smites or vicious powers like Death Hex, it can also give Shrike 6 attacks hitting on 2+ with rerolls, wounding MEQs on 3+ with rerolls at AP-3, doing D3 damage in case he's murdering an HQ, also giving him T5 in case he gets hit back. All this with Null Zone to stop them from taking invulnerable saves - which also makes the Thunder Hammer boys insane.

If you're taking a nameless librarian to sit in the back with a gunline protecting tacs or intercessors from smite and giving a predator T8 for giggles then you're not using him to full effectiveness. Marines are flexible. When you make a list, give your Librarian a purpose. Use him for that purpose.

A back line Libby has value against meleecentric armies doing the same powers you mentioned. A critical denial can be a game winner.