Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

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**Slayer-Fan123**

jcd386 wrote:
I do wonder if the tendency to want to bring 3 pricey units down with Lias is a bit of a trap now.

2-3 units that cost about 200 points each is a large portion of any list, I wonder how effective the first couple turns would be waiting for them, especially when going second.

I was for the most part dropping them either T1 or T2. It'll affect maybe half my games if my opponent deploys inefficiently.

**bort**

How many points is the twin autocannon? Battlescribe shows 30 on Forgeworld models and 33 on regular. Which is the most recent pricing?
Specifically, the Contemptors list it as 30 or 2 for 60. My copy of the FW book says 33, so either they reduced it in a CA, or there's a typo in Battlescribe.

**Crimson_**

The twin autocannon has a listing in the CA forgeworld wargear section. It is indeed 30 points.

**bort**

Crimson_ wrote:
The twin autocannon has a listing in the CA forgeworld wargear section. It is indeed 30 points.

Huh...But, then why is it 33 for other units?

**Ice_can**

bort wrote:
Crimson_ wrote:
The twin autocannon has a listing in the CA forgeworld wargear section. It is indeed 30 points.

Huh...But, then why is it 33 for other units?

Simplt put if your building a forge world index adaptes astartes dread a twin auto cannon is 30 points.
If your building an index imperial dread the twin linked auto cannons are 33 points.
You can't mix and match points from multiple different units to make up points cost.

The reason they are different is the base dreadnaught prices are different, and remeber you have to use the dataslate from the forgeworld book to build the dread legaly using the forgeworld points.

**bort**

Sure, I just didn't realize there were any weapons with different prices between the books. Everything else was the same as the SM codex at a glance.

Though, ironically right after asking I made a list variant that removes all the riflemen dread loadouts. I was thinking that if I'm considering buying a Forgeworld dread anyways, that Leviathan might be pretty dang good, and other than the 24" range concern, that covers my autocannon slots on its own.

2000pt RG list idea:

Spoiler:

**Ice_can**

bort wrote:
Sure, I just didn't realize there were any weapons with different prices between the books. Everything else was the same as the SM codex at a glance.

Though, ironically right after asking I made a list variant that removes all the riflemen dread loadouts. I was thinking that if I'm considering buying a Forgeworld dread anyways, that Leviathan might be pretty dang good, and other than the 24" range concern, that covers my autocannon slots on its own.

2000pt RG list idea:

Spoiler:

Battalion for 8 total CPs

Captain - Thunder hammer, storm bolter
Lieutenant - Teeth of Terrra, storm bolter, warlord Storm of Fire

5 Scouts - Bolters
5 Scouts - Heavy bolter, bolters
5 Scouts - Heavy bolter, bolters

3 Aggressors - Boltstorms
Venerable Dreadnought - TL Lascannon, missile launcher
Venerable Dreadnought - TL Lascannon, missile launcher
Venerable Dreadnought - TL Lascannon, missile launcher

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought - 2 Storm cannons
5 Devastators - 4 Lascannons, cherub
10 Hellblasters - Incinerators

Razorback - TL Assault cannon, HK
Razorback - TL Assault cannon, HK

It's some quite point efficient shooting, though my concern is I may have mixed my guns across infantry and vehicles too evenly. Pretty much any enemy unit can target something optimally. For example, if they want to remove my AT, there's both infantry Devs and vehicle Venerables to shoot at, instead of only 1 type of unit and denying the optimal use of half their weapons.

I would be more worried about your helblasters being toast Turn one if you deploy in the razorbacks as they will be the best infantry target on the field. Honestly when surrounded by vehicals primaris are a better choice as the heacy weapons are usually concentrating on the dreads, Also take a look at a deredeo love mine as it can hand out an invulnerable sace to units around it. Would really push up the survival rate of your hellblasters

**Mandragola**

Agreed. To be honest I've always thought that Lias was a trap - a way to put fragile, expensive troops in great danger. It's far too easy to defend against.

Lias himself is actually fine. He's a chapter master that doesn't cost CPs. Just don't use him to throw sternguard away killing IG screens, or leave 1/3 of your points out of the start of the game.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Mandragola wrote:
Agreed. To be honest I've always thought that Lias was a trap - a way to put fragile, expensive troops in great danger. It's far too easy to defend against.

Lias himself is actually fine. He's a chapter master that doesn't cost CPs. Just don't use him to throw sternguard away killing IG screens, or leave 1/3 of your points out of the start of the game.

Killing IG screens is something only Sternguard and Command Squads and Aggressors do okay at compared to the rest of the codex. Taratula Sentry Guns are good too though.

**Primark G**

I’m not sold on sentry guns since they are immobile.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Primark G wrote:
I’m not sold on sentry guns since they are immobile.

You're using Heavy Bolters. That's a 36" range. You're going to be fine for those 37 points.

**Primark G**

I don't know with a big piece of LoS blocking terrain they might never get to fire at enemy chaff.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Primark G wrote:
I don't know with a big piece of LoS blocking terrain they might never get to fire at enemy chaff.

Then you only paid 37 points for area denial. For the price they are a steal and you ought to actually try them.

**Primark G**

I'll pass (hard).

**Slayer-Fan123**

Primark G wrote:
I'll pass (hard).

For 37 points? Nothing does what the Taratula Sentry Gun does in our codex for that cheap.

I know you don't know the Codex very well (Vanguard can take TWO Chainswords?), but I'll give you a pass since it is in the FW index. For 37 points at minimum investment, you get:
T5
4 Wounds
BS4+
TL Heavy Bolter

The only caveat is that, if it has the TL Heavy Bolter, it has to target the nearest infantry if there are any. It's actually a really good deal.

**Primark G**

I don't use VV.

**Ice_can**

Well I wouldn't expect a custards player to know the marine codex very well, much less the forge world options.

But to get this back on topic of how to make an atleast semi competative list with the vanilla marine codex.

I thinking post FAQ with beta deepstrike rules of giving my boys in blue a serious talking too and some stealth lessons and playing them as raven guard as with turn one deepstrike gone and only a few armies really being able to pull of a turn one charge I think the -1 to hit is more valuable than the fallback and shoot.

**Vilehydra**

Anyone have any success with any whirlwind variants? Lost a game to tau because he hid his shield drone squad behind cover and I had no effective way to get to them. I was considering using the castellan as a way to clear out annoying units and provide fire support. Thunder fire may be a better alternative as it can use the tremor shells for versatility. The Techmarine could also be used to repair vehicles (which I do use)

**grouchoben**

Whirlwind are just chronically undergunned, which is a shame because I love the look of them. I haven't tried a thunderfire but it certainly looks a lot better on paper - it brings utility to the party, as you say. I know the Scorpius is more expensive (215pts with no frills!) but it does bring 6D3 S6 -2 2D shots to the table, with the all-important indirect ability. Might be worth considering. Or the quad rapier carrier for its twin profile might be just the ticket - 4d3 thunderfire shells for the drones, 4 shatter shells for the big targets...

**Vilehydra**

Whats the cost and range for the quad rapier?

**Primark G**

RG is very dependant on who goes first. So like 50% of the time your CT helps you. I have seen too many times deliver their own units to the opponent only to get quickly annihilated.

**Eihnlazer**

Scorpius is amazing if you can keep it out of LOS (enough terrain). If you have enough bodies in front of them, you can take 2 and keep a leftenant near them and they will do work.

**Brother Payne**

There was some whirlwind mathhammer done on the previous page. Point-for-point Castellans are better vs GEQ and MEQ, Vengeance vs TEQ, and Scorpius vs Rhino equivalents, so it depends on what they're hiding. If you're taking land speeders, then Castellan/Vengeance Whirlwinds become much better due to being able to benefit from the Datalink Telementry strat

**Mandragola**

Where are the rules for the quad launcher rapier for marines? It doesn't seem to be an option in the FW index, and neither does Grav. You just get the laser and quad heavy bolter options. EDIT: Found it in the FAQ. Cool. I'm going to paint one of these up for my crimson fists, as it's a decent cheap heavy support choice that does a job. The TFC is better if you can afford it though.

I think that basically the Scorpius is the best no-LoS weapon marines have. It's pricey but not all that pricey. It's obviosuly going to be a really high-priority target, but if you hide it and put other stuff in the way to screen it can do good work.

Interesting that GW don't seem to have messed up the "datalink telemetry" stratagem. You can't use it with the Scorpius, which is fair enough. Land speeders are pretty awful anyway so you wouldn't want to bother.

I used my Leviathan for the first time tonight. The FAQ giving him 3 HK missiles has tipped him over from "decent" to "really quite good" in my opinion. In tonight's game he spat death at things in a very pleasing fashion. Got himself locked in cc at one point, irritatingly, but got away again and was able to smash up what was left. I also used the wisdom of the ancients stratagem to help two hellblaster squads out, after trading my captain for a dreadknight grand master (I had drawn "assassinate" with "priority orders received"). Not a bad bit of kit all round.

The storm cannon arrays fill a niche that marines don't have too much of: good damage to things with invulnerable saves. For targets like Magnus you really want to shoot them a lot of times, not just wiht a few lascannons.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Primark G wrote:
I don't use VV.

I'm making fun of the fact you said the Marine codex is GOOD and haven't bothered to read the entries carefully for the codex or index one bit. You've done similar things multiple times but the Vanguard comment was literally the worst one.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Payne wrote:
There was some whirlwind mathhammer done on the previous page. Point-for-point Castellans are better vs GEQ and MEQ, Vengeance vs TEQ, and Scorpius vs Rhino equivalents, so it depends on what they're hiding. If you're taking land speeders, then Castellan/Vengeance Whirlwinds become much better due to being able to benefit from the Datalink Telementry strat

The Castellan is better against the single wound Marines vs the Vengeance which does better against multi-wound dudes, and then the Scorpius against TEQ and CEQ.

Castellan I'm guessing is always better against Gaunts and Boyz so I didn't bother to do the math on that. So basically I feel the Vengeance version isn't worth investing to compared to a Scorpius if you're absolutely sure you can hide the model.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vilehydra wrote:
Whats the cost and range for the quad rapier?

Check out the FAQ from FW and you'll find it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grouchoben wrote:
Whirlwind are just chronically undergunned, which is a shame because I love the look of them. I haven't tried a thunderfire but it certainly looks a lot better on paper - it brings utility to the party, as you say. I know the Scorpius is more expensive (215pts with no frills!) but it does bring 6D3 S6 -2 2D shots to the table, with the all-important indirect ability. Might be worth considering. Or the quad rapier carrier for its twin profile might be just the ticket - 4d3 thunderfire shells for the drones, 4 shatter shells for the big targets...

If you're taking the Quad Launcher, remember their Thunderfire shells don't benefit from the Quake Shells Strategem, which is why I take a single Thunderfire but otherwise stick with Quad Launchers all the way.

**bort**

Mandragola wrote:

I used my Leviathan for the first time tonight. The FAQ giving him 3 HK missiles has tipped him over from "decent" to "really quite good" in my opinion. In tonight's game he spat death at things in a very pleasing fashion. Got himself locked in cc at one point, irritatingly, but got away again and was able to smash up what was left. I also used the wisdom of the ancients stratagem to help two hellblaster squads out, after trading my captain for a dreadknight grand master (I had drawn "assassinate" with "priority orders received"). Not a bad bit of kit all round.

The storm cannon arrays fill a niche that marines don't have too much of: good damage to things with invulnerable saves. For targets like Magnus you really want to shoot them a lot of times, not just wiht a few lascannons.

...Ooh, I need to read this FAQ entry myself, since I'd almost talked myself into buying one already. 3 HKs on top is pretty nice other than once again having to figure out where to get the 18 points.

I'd this morning just given up on one of my Razors and some misc gear for 3 more Aggressors and the points to upgrade a Scout unit to Intercessors. You talked them up enough I'd been wanting to try a unit if possible, and the Aggressors keep the wound count and anti horde firepower about even with the lost tank. Now to scare up 18 more points somewhere...I'd love to pull 1 Aggressor and call it good, but 1 unit of 5 seems a heck of a lot worse than 2 units of 3. Edit: Decided to pull the second Aggressor unit and add in 5 more Scouts. I dislike the firepower loss, but ~60pts spare is hard to play with as Marines and the body count is nice.

Newest RG Leviathan list:

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been saddened by the Whirlwind pretty much every edition since I bought one in 2nd. It's never been a bad tank for the cost, it's just always suffered from using up a limited Heavy slot in an army book with lots of other good Heavy options.

**Valkyrie**

Just been reading through this thread when I should be working, and noticed there's been a bit of a discussion about Lias in the last few pages. I've been running Lias+RG for quite a while but with the FAQ changes I've decided to try a couple of new units, dropping Lias in favour for just pure-gunline, with less sneaky-stuff on his part.

Here's what I've come up with:

Spoiler:

The only thing I think I can change would be to add a couple of Scout squads to act as a DS buffer, but would like some feedback before I buy anything. I'm not 100% on the Terminators, again due to the DS changes; removing them would free up points for the aforementioned Scouts but on the other hand, would it be sensible to have some sort of DS harrassment unit?

**Crimson_**

Your points for the Fire Raptor are wrong. Post FAQ it is 452, because the hull got a 90pts increase.

**bananathug**

Fire raptor went up 90 points.

Termies are terrible, run anything else (SftS VV with jump packs can get reliable t1 charges or john woo them up with twin plasma pistols for t2 26" screen proof shooting that will die and give up all the points if you don't get t1...)

You will need scouts to prep-field for lias. No deepstrike until turn 2 means you gotta be able to clear a landing area of preserve one.

Mixing combi-plas, plas and las in your tacs leads to a schizophrenic unit which either wants to move or hang back and shoot.

What are your goals for this list? You trying to have fun with your buds or compete in tournaments?

**Azuza001**

I don't understand the whirlwind hate that some places seem to give it (not saying here), compared to a basic pred with just its autocannon the whirlwinds with vengance get 72" range with no Los needed for 26 pts cheaper. Yes the predator can get laz cannons or heavy bolters to make if better but more expensive, but I love the autocannons on the preds now. 3 whirlwinds will cost 312 pts, put a cheap leutinant near them you have an effective and cheap detachment for long range fire Support. Got to love it.