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Broadly - post FAQ what are our best ranged dakka? Most competitive rulesets require a unit (or more) to be killed first turn (ITC, NOVA, even CA, etc.). I am struggling with finding strong options over 24 inches that I don't mind having on the table first turn. I am asking from a competitive standpoint.
PBC - competitive but not really great at killing a unit reliably even with 3 and rerolls. Advancing with the flamer can be "ok" but -1 to AP against units in cover also hurts the damage out.
Pinks - 24 inch range but can assault (if they start on the table)
Strong value for shots, but most anti-chaffe armies (IG with relic, tau, etc.) will shred this if we don't go first (even with reinforcement points and strat - ecsp, if DE negate autopass on morale etc.) - and once below 20 creates trouble. I tried this with up to 75 reinforcement points for one squad and barely survived one turn (at which point the unit was neutered). Furthermore hitting on 4's (5's practically competitively at a minimum as all armies are -1 to hit - even worse 6's on the advance!) even at 90 shots and wounding on 3's - 4's (depending if flicker goes off) - at no AP leaves some to be desired (try killing an eldar ranger squad or tau infiltrator).
Oblits - Decent choice but point intense, relatively squishy (even with alpha legion and in cover - think Dark reapers - every fail one shots a model) - and cannot deepstrike out of deployment turn 1 - which means most turn ones oblits aren't doing anything.
Cultists - This is actually an ok option but has similar morale problems to pinks unless going Iron Warriors / Abaddon - still also suffers brutally if going second. Tide of traitors helps.
Any dreadnaught (since I know someone will suggest) - not really competitive
Rapier Quad Bolters - 12 shots at 5 str -1 ap 1 dmg (if in cover) sitting at 2+ on the ground floor of ruins (half obscured) is not awful at T5 - but realistically even with 48 inch range with some LoS blocks and the fact it is heavy, low movement, and everyone plays with shining spears - likely to give more than it gets (allowing easy soulbursts etc.).
Bubblewrapped characters - don't really have any great choices (like commanders) for ranged output? Daemon Princes are still strong but won't offer much T1 as they are melee, unless you don't mind throwing your warlord on the fire, i.e. smite spam over 24 inches not reliable (maybe TSons...)
The reason this is important is becaucse in ITC for exapmle you get a point for killing a unit and also a point for killing more. This could lead to a 2-3 point swing from T1 where you constantly feel the need to "catch up." (lost 1 point for kill something, opponent kills more, also [in theory] if you were to kill more). Also from a practical standpoint if you go second, you will be eating 2 full turns of dakka before being able to punch back easily. Most armies I've seen for chaos go for the mob approach and just dumpster a ton of nurgle units and PBC on the table and slowly waltz up, but would be nice to have some viable ranged options (tau flier lists, etc.)
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/06/13 14:50:03
Havocs. Access to Mark of Slaanesh and the Endless Cacophony Strategem means that a single Havoc squad can output 8 Las Cannon Shots in a single turn. Alpha Legion and Cover can help their durability, or Black Legion can give them full rerolls to hit.
Hellforged Scorpius- an artillery tank which can shoot twice if it doesn't move- that is 6d3 shots ignoring LoS with Ap-2 and D2.
Noise Marines can be hilarious under Alpha Legion. Infiltrate them where you want them before the game starts. If you go first fire at will. If your enemy goes first and wipes them out, you still have a decent chance of picking up that turn one kill on the enemies turn 1 as they go down.
Plasma Havocs seem to be solid, and they’ve had a little buff against melee counters.
Hellforged Scorpius seems really good on paper. Definitely on my medium-term shopping list.
If you can deliver them, Warpflamer Rubricae are pretty terrifying.
Chaos Knight with two Gatling Cannon whatsits seems decent, but probably going to be waiting a long time for parity with loyalists with their heirlooms and households and Stratagems. Being able to stick their chainsword through a second floor window gives Imperial Knights a distinctive niche in the post-FAQ rules.
Hellforged Spartan has a preposterous amount of anti-tank. Definite candidate for Prescience, Warptime (to deliver the contents next turn), and Delightful Agonies (to give a virtual +33%W). I’m liking the Heavy Flamers loadout when you Warptime it.
lindsay40k wrote: Plasma Havocs seem to be solid, and they’ve had a little buff against melee counters.
Hellforged Scorpius seems really good on paper. Definitely on my medium-term shopping list.
If you can deliver them, Warpflamer Rubricae are pretty terrifying.
Chaos Knight with two Gatling Cannon whatsits seems decent, but probably going to be waiting a long time for parity with loyalists with their heirlooms and households and Stratagems. Being able to stick their chainsword through a second floor window gives Imperial Knights a distinctive niche in the post-FAQ rules.
Hellforged Spartan has a preposterous amount of anti-tank. Definite candidate for Prescience, Warptime (to deliver the contents next turn), and Delightful Agonies (to give a virtual +33%W). I’m liking the Heavy Flamers loadout when you Warptime it.
renegade with 2 gatling cost too much 548pts for a weapon only str 6 and ap-2, ok 24 hits but still too few, when you start face just -1 to hit you see how overcosted it is, 12 average hits 8 wounds on T4 and power armor can still save 1/3 about 5 wounds on a marine squad, if you shoot a veichle you wound on 5+, try shoot an alaitoc wave serpent usually you get about 3-4 wounds, no more
and a wave cost about 144pts lol. Sorry but renegade knights are for non competitive games right now.
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akaean wrote: Hellforged Scorpius- an artillery tank which can shoot twice if it doesn't move- that is 6d3 shots ignoring LoS with Ap-2 and D2.
+1 for the Scorpius.
For the points, it is the best shooting platform for Chaos. Fires a ton of shots and each shot is like a lascannon-lite.
Take three of them and stick Abaddon in the middle for rerolls.
It's a pretty darn good amount of firepower for sure, but it eats up almost half your points in a list, or more.
They're definitely overall more point efficient than regular Whirlwinds at least.
That's an interesting perspective worth discussing. My impressions may be particular to the kinds of lists I run, but I feel like a Scorpius is a steal for the points.
Anytime you sink a lot of points into a certain (type) of unit, you have to ask what kind of advantage you are going to get. In most of my lists, I run 3 Laspreds, and they are there to kill enemy tanks early in the game. They account for about a third the cost of a 2,000 point army.
Each Laspred averages about 7 wounds a turn. I always have Abaddon nearby for rerolls, which ensures at least 2 shots get through on most things. They are not terribly efficient against infantry, but that's not really the reason I take them.
When I swap out a Laspred with a Scorpius, I'm asking myself whether I can get more than 7 wounds a turn out of them. That means each one needs to wound an average of 4 times a turn, since it does 2 damage per wound. Also, 3 Scorpius' cost more than 3 Laspreds - about the cost of a Daemon Prince. So I have to account for that as well.
In most games, each Scorpius does average more than 7 wounds a turn. I haven't done the mathhammer, but (as you might expect) they wreck infantry / heavy infantry / light tanks and have a harder time against bigger things like Baneblades, Land Raiders, Wraithknights, etc. There have been games where they are dishing out 40+ wounds a turn, there have been games where it's more like 20. But that's still a lot of wounds.
But what makes them shine is the fact I can put those Scorpius tanks anywhere on the table. When I have them stuck behind LOS blocking terrain, opponents tend to feel a lot of pressure to take them out and often leads to mistakes. For example, I played against Custodes about 3 weeks ago. My opponent committed 2 Shield Captains to traveling around a building to take them out, which meant my army had an extra turn to shoot at (and destroy) them. He would have done better charging my Cultists, which would have made the SCs immune from shooting and put him in range for a charge once he wiped them out.
I've also gotten pretty good at screening triple tanks and know how to use charge / fall back shenanigans to make it hard to close in on them. So long as I have Abaddon and some CSMs / Cultists on the table, I can make it really hard to get anywhere near the tanks. When I compare this with Laspreds - who need LOS to shoot stuff - it's a completely different game. A chunk of my army can just sit behind a building while I wait for an opponent to come in at a certain angle, which is a pretty big advantage. And this is also a great way to clear objectives, as long as you are in range you have a ton of shots you can drop down before your other guys get there.
So I feel like a Scorpius is worth more than any other Heavy Support choice in a Chaos army. It gets a lot of work done with the launchers, sure, but it's also a huge distraction unit. Most other armies are not prepared to fight against them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 20:20:37
Havocs. Access to Mark of Slaanesh and the Endless Cacophony Strategem means that a single Havoc squad can output 8 Las Cannon Shots in a single turn. Alpha Legion and Cover can help their durability, or Black Legion can give them full rerolls to hit.
Hellforged Scorpius- an artillery tank which can shoot twice if it doesn't move- that is 6d3 shots ignoring LoS with Ap-2 and D2.
Noise Marines can be hilarious under Alpha Legion. Infiltrate them where you want them before the game starts. If you go first fire at will. If your enemy goes first and wipes them out, you still have a decent chance of picking up that turn one kill on the enemies turn 1 as they go down.
Not quite keen on the havocs for the point cost - it looks great but in practice they are targeted and die easily even if hidden in the back - dark reapers just don't care at all.
I'm going to give the scropius a heavy look - By mathhammer I think it still dies to one volley of an average plod of dark reapers who materialize out of the webway... although as it can sit out of LOS which may be the saving grace here. Can someone explain how the cover system and vehicles work, all it has to do is touch cover and be obscured to get the bonus(? - there were a few FAQ on how the cover system works... or does that only apply to infantry?)
Also didn't think of that use for noise marines, I am actually warm to this idea - go first and value should be strong. Go second and likely still possible to capture first blood and make back some points (shoot into pathfinders, guardian blobs, etc.)
Two follow-up questions:
1) Optimal size for noise marine squad for this purpose? Its tempting to go big and refire with a large group of noise marines on paper - but at the end of the day bigger group is harder to get in cover, keep at least 12 inches out and make back value/keep out of melee. At a glance the investment is higher. I'm thinking rather than 3 squads etc. etc. to just run one blob at 10-15 and hope for the best (no rerolls as they would probably be infiltrated)?
2) What is the model for the scorpius? Its the legion deimos pattern whirlwind?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 22:53:10
Havocs can get the cover save but outside of FW I'm starting to think there's more value in rifleman helbrutes.
147 points for twin las and missile launcher
Take the same on havocs MSU and you're looking at 140pts. But you've got 3 less wounds and toughness 4 not 7.
The helbrute stratagem is maybe a little situational but at least you can use it alongside endless cacophony which you're prob gonna want to use on obliterators rather than your havocs.
Abaddon303 wrote: Havocs can get the cover save but outside of FW I'm starting to think there's more value in rifleman helbrutes.
147 points for twin las and missile launcher
Take the same on havocs MSU and you're looking at 140pts. But you've got 3 less wounds and toughness 4 not 7.
The helbrute stratagem is maybe a little situational but at least you can use it alongside endless cacophony which you're prob gonna want to use on obliterators rather than your havocs.
Helbrutes are meatier, but they also are harder to get into cover, and can't be transported in any meaningful way. It is also weak to lascannon and melta fire, where with Havocs interestingly enough, they laugh at the prospect of getting fired at with a lascannon.
I am looking at Predator tanks, but without side sponsons and instead add havoc launchers. They are really cheap at slightly over 140 points, but if you have three, then kill shot makes even the havoc launchers good, and it makes the predator's main autocannon gun deadly. The good thing about not having even heavy bolter sponsons is that all your guns are range 48, so you are free to place the tanks well in your back line.
Now, your opponent can and will kill off a tank or two, but then its not so many points, so you can then spend the points elsewhere on other shooty units as well.
Could always do three scorpiuses, 100 cultists with morale immunity of your choice, and a supreme command with two daemon prince of tzeentch and ahriman.
Pros:
* Transports up to 12 models
* Upgradable Storm Bolters to Twin Volkite Chargers for +6 per gun
* Melee weapon drill head that dishes out extra mortal wounds on big things that don't die to it instantly
* Movement 8 / 6 / 4
* Toughness 8
* BS 3 / 4 / 5
* A 6 / D6 / D3
* Free Melta Cutter
* You CAN get out immediately after surfacing
* It explodes a flat six inches always
Cons:
* 130 points before wargear makes it just as expensive as a drop pod before you start putting guns on it
* It explodes a flat six inches always
* It's still pretty easy to kite
* No Jump Pack, Terminator, or Cult of Destruction
* Does not auto wound in a bubble around it when it surfaces
Overall I like this model more than the Hellforged Termite. You give up the auto-mortal wounds for more guns, a melee weapon, and overall more consistency. You opponent wasn't always going to give you the perfect spot to surface from to dish out those mortal wounds, so having more guns instead seems like a better bet. The melee on this thing is also pretty great and since you're going to slam it into the enemy to soak up overwatch anyways it might as well destroy whatever it hits, right? It also has great explode potential. Most of all it acts as great line of sight blocking when it appears since you can have your Berzerkers duck behind it for a turn while your Chosen or Havocs pop out the other side with Plasma or something.
Hopefully they will see the price hike on this model and reduce the price of the Dreadclaw in kind, eventually.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/15 14:11:53
Point of order - you don’t get out immediately after surfacing, you choose whether you want to or not. That’s a significant point for, say, a flamer squad. Though with deep strikes not happening until T2, it’s an obscure niche.
In fact, what exactly does this do that a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis doesn’t do better?
lindsay40k wrote: Point of order - you don’t get out immediately after surfacing, you choose whether you want to or not. That’s a significant point for, say, a flamer squad. Though with deep strikes not happening until T2, it’s an obscure niche.
In fact, what exactly does this do that a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis doesn’t do better?
Noted that first point, and it makes it a lot better IMO. You can pop out your ranged unit and keep your Berzerkers inside a turn, then have them use the exit move for 9 inches. Pretty good IMO.
Ways it's better than a Dreadclaw:
* 12 unit size instead of 10, allowing two 5 man units and HQs * Toughness 8
* Guns. Those Twin Volkite Chargers are pretty damn tasty
* More melee attacks that hit harder with a potential for mortal wounds on larger targets
* You don't have to get out right away (again, this is great for those melee units you don't want to gamble the 50% charge chance on)
* It's pretty big so it blocks line of sight, whereas the Dreadclaw and Kharabdis are on struts and do not
The pods have higher movement and can transport more types of units. Other than that the Termite has a lot more options and potential to do more. In fact since you don't have to disembark when it surfaces you could do something stupid like take two units of Possessed with HQ support, stay inside, charge out of surfacing, either survive the next turn or break, disembark in the middle of the enemy lines. This would require a lot of support from the rest of your army, but there is potential there. Pods you have to make sure there is cover to deploy your bois into, Termite you can keep them snug inside, which if they are melee is a buff IMO.
Being able to get a tougher, deadlier, meleeier Rhino 9 inches from the enemy AND keep my Berzerkers safe for a turn is good with me. I have plenty of other units rushing up the board to screen the edges of the Termite in order to avoid the enemy wrapping it.
Pros:
* Transports up to 12 models
* Upgradable Storm Bolters to Twin Volkite Chargers for +6 per gun
* Melee weapon drill head that dishes out extra mortal wounds on big things that don't die to it instantly
* Movement 8 / 6 / 4
* Toughness 8
* BS 3 / 4 / 5
* A 6 / D6 / D3
* Free Melta Cutter
* You CAN get out immediately after surfacing
* It explodes a flat six inches always
Cons:
* 130 points before wargear makes it just as expensive as a drop pod before you start putting guns on it
* It explodes a flat six inches always
* It's still pretty easy to kite
* No Jump Pack, Terminator, or Cult of Destruction
* Does not auto wound in a bubble around it when it surfaces
Overall I like this model more than the Hellforged Termite. You give up the auto-mortal wounds for more guns, a melee weapon, and overall more consistency. You opponent wasn't always going to give you the perfect spot to surface from to dish out those mortal wounds, so having more guns instead seems like a better bet. The melee on this thing is also pretty great and since you're going to slam it into the enemy to soak up overwatch anyways it might as well destroy whatever it hits, right? It also has great explode potential. Most of all it acts as great line of sight blocking when it appears since you can have your Berzerkers duck behind it for a turn while your Chosen or Havocs pop out the other side with Plasma or something.
Hopefully they will see the price hike on this model and reduce the price of the Dreadclaw in kind, eventually.
Interesting.
This has similar melee advantages to a Kharbydis with the melta cutters in close combat, except it's not limited to vehicles / monsters and works even when you don't get the charge. So it's an assault dedicated transport, which is kind of novel - perfect for Khorne. You could to 10 troops plus an HQ.
I would wait to see if the points change before buying the model. The KAC is too expensive now for what it does, and I suspect it's only a matter of time before GW does the same here. Long term, this looks like a 200+ point model.
It occurs to me this would be perfect for a Grey Knights army but GW chose specifically to exclude them. Also, Death Guard and Thousand Sons are not included on the datasheet - does that mean this is only available to Codex CSMs?
The termite to me, seems to have all the advantage over a regular dreadclaw. For basically the same price, it's tougher, shootier, punchier, and can carry more guys. All it's lacking is the fly/speed, but it's deepstriking anyways and should be plenty close enough.
Even compared to a dedicated assault walker like the maulerfiend, this thing takes the cake.
Visited FLGS that was running an ITC tournament. Every imperium player had 1-3 knights with most of them having 3. There were knights at every table, and half of them were the new big boys.
Granted I'm new, but my poor, sweet Bearers army can barely cope with one of the old knights let alone 3 of the variety.
Has anyone used Skarbrand vs knight(s)? Mine's still headless and unpainted :(
Anyone else find a niche to handle that much dakka on that many wounds?
Dactylartha wrote: Visited FLGS that was running an ITC tournament. Every imperium player had 1-3 knights with most of them having 3. There were knights at every table, and half of them were the new big boys.
Granted I'm new, but my poor, sweet Bearers army can barely cope with one of the old knights let alone 3 of the variety.
Has anyone used Skarbrand vs knight(s)? Mine's still headless and unpainted :(
Anyone else find a niche to handle that much dakka on that many wounds?
Well, pure CSM aint exactly top of the shelf, and the bearers are practically the bottom of CSM.
May I ask what was your list to begin with? can't really tell you what went wrong without knowing what went.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Dactylartha wrote: Visited FLGS that was running an ITC tournament. Every imperium player had 1-3 knights with most of them having 3. There were knights at every table, and half of them were the new big boys.
Granted I'm new, but my poor, sweet Bearers army can barely cope with one of the old knights let alone 3 of the variety.
Has anyone used Skarbrand vs knight(s)? Mine's still headless and unpainted :(
Anyone else find a niche to handle that much dakka on that many wounds?
I main Word Bearers. Been doing OK against Titanic stuff, including Knights. Stuff we can do:
- Death Hex the shields down then dakka it. EC + VotLW + Prescience on Noise Marines or Plasma squad deals weight of shot damage. Fiends of Slaanesh can stop it running away from a melee beatstick. Warptime gets a Lord of Skulls in its face; a Skullmaster can throw useful buffs at it. Diabolical Might on a Talons Elixer DP gives it a bloody nose. Exalted Champion makes horde melee viable - Berzerkers will take it down like ants swarming a lion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Chaos Spawn can envelope it and prevent fall back whilst taking a screwdriver to it
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/17 14:03:34
Dactylartha wrote: Visited FLGS that was running an ITC tournament. Every imperium player had 1-3 knights with most of them having 3. There were knights at every table, and half of them were the new big boys.
Granted I'm new, but my poor, sweet Bearers army can barely cope with one of the old knights let alone 3 of the variety.
Has anyone used Skarbrand vs knight(s)? Mine's still headless and unpainted :(
Anyone else find a niche to handle that much dakka on that many wounds?
Well, pure CSM aint exactly top of the shelf, and the bearers are practically the bottom of CSM.
May I ask what was your list to begin with? can't really tell you what went wrong without knowing what went.
I've only been collecting for about a year. I don't have a standard list at any specific point level and i juuuust started dipping my toes into competition. FLGS here runs a "casual" tournament with PL caps, no FW allowed, and some vestigal house rules left over from 7th ed. (I'll enter a 1750 pt tourney next month with PL cap of 14).
Spoiler:
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [213 PL, 4025pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Legion: Word Bearers
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 104pts]: No Chaos Mark, Plasma pistol, Power sword, The Murder Sword
Cypher [6 PL, 110pts]
Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 183pts]: Hellforged sword, Intoxicating Elixir, The Voice of Lorgar, Warlord, Warp bolter
. Slaanesh: Warptime
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 78pts]: Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark, Power maul, The Cursed Crozius
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 94pts]: Combi-melta, Mark of Khorne, Power axe, Talisman of Burning Blood
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 139pts]: Combi-flamer, Eye of Tzeentch, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 44pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. Cultist Champion: Shotgun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 49pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Flamer
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol
Chaos Space Marines [9 PL, 172pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Combi-plasma, Power sword
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 237pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-melta, Power maul
. Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter
. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer, Power fist
Chosen [11 PL, 129pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Chosen: Power fist
. Chosen: Power axe
. Chosen: Chainsword
. Chosen: Chainsword
. Chosen Champion: Boltgun, Power maul
. Chosen w/ Lightning Claw: 2x Lightning Claw
Fallen [6 PL, 105pts] . Fallen Champion: Combi-plasma, Power sword
. Fallen w/Melee Weapon: Power sword
. Fallen w/Melee Weapon: Power sword
. Fallen w/Melee Weapon: Power sword
. Fallen w/Melee Weapon: Power sword
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 229pts]: Havoc launcher
. Left Arm: Hellforged chainclaw, Soulburner
. Right Arm: Hellforged chainclaw, Soulburner
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [27 PL, 565pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Legion: Renegade Chapters
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 138pts]: Chainfist, Combi-melta, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh
Sorcerer with Jump Pack [7 PL, 127pts]: Death Hex, Eye of Tzeentch, Force sword, Infernal Gaze, Mark of Tzeentch, Plasma pistol
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-melta, Power sword
. Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist
. Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-melta
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Power fist, Reaper autocannon
++ Total: [270 PL, 5189pts] ++
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [29 PL, 565pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Legion: Word Bearers
+ Elites +
Possessed [11 PL, 220pts]: No Chaos Mark, 10x Possessed
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs [7 PL, 125pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
Havocs [7 PL, 135pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 85pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher, No Chaos Mark
I have a lot of the basics, a few go-to's like the DP and my contemptor, but no Oblits, Spawn, Noise Bois, or plasma chosen.
Word bearers are cool but I don't have the Daemons yet to utilize the only advantage of summoning, so I could just pretend to be Alpha Legion but whatever.
I do like to summon a Daemons DP after my CSMDP is killed though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/17 18:53:40
@Dactylartha - Summoning is very weak in this current rules set, having the models in play from the start (or deep striking without a character missing a turn to be the summoner) is far stronger - especially for Characters who can get Loci. (Nice Outriders with Karanak, there - I like to add a Jugger Herald to mine for even more coverage.)
Main use for Chaos Reinforcement Points at the moment is for splitting Horrors, and Horticulous planting trees for Plaguebearers, Obliterators, or Plagueburst Crawlers.
I tend to play my Word Bearers as ‘universal Daemonkin’; a bunch of units like Obliterators, Possessed, and characters on Daemon steeds (from Index Chaos); plus some mundane traditional military stuff - Lords, Havocs, tanks; plus the worshipping masses - Cultists galore, often a Dark Apostle.
Decimators are pretty good right now, too, and really suit the Daemonologists.
That’s an interesting Fallen contingent, with that gunner unit already to hand the only thing LEGION plasma really has to offer on the field is compatibility with Warptime, Prescience, Rhinos, and Dreadclaws. Have you had a chance to field them, much?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/17 19:38:53
That’s an interesting Fallen contingent, with that gunner unit already to hand the only thing LEGION plasma really has to offer on the field is compatibility with Warptime, Prescience, Rhinos, and Dreadclaws. Have you had a chance to field them, much?
I have. They perform very very well if they don't get out shot early on. The plasma pistols can overcharge in combat which helps. They don't really need Cypher, but with Battle Brothers beta rule, enforced locally, they can't be run without the entire detachment.
Compared to chosen or havocs, the only benefit they have is that they don't need a babysitter. Chosen can get better loadouts and both they and havocs, as you said, get transports and synergies from CSM.
Cypher is an absolute star with or without any fallen by him.
12000p
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
