Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd like to hear if people would consider to add 1-2 Amiriger's with autocannons to a list of R&H which is focused on mobile warfare style. It is a semi attempt at a fun list that can deal with most stuff and i thought maybee some better autocannons on a "tough" chasis would help.
Atm i run something along the line of this:

Renegade commander: Warlord, basic warlord trait of +1 ld aura, Covenant of khorne,
Renegade commander:

2x10 Command squads: autocannon, plasma guns, command voxes.

2xChimeras, Multilaser, heavy bolter

2x6 marauders: once with Meltas, once with flamers, rest is shotguns

1x Valkyrie: multilaser 2x rocketpods

1x10 Marauders: 2 sniperrifles

Salamander scout tank: autocannon, Heavy stubber, Heavy bolter.

Rest is filled with cheap chaff (usually 20 men militia blobs with chaos sigil and voxes)

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd like to hear if people would consider to add 1-2 Amiriger's with autocannons to a list of R&H which is focused on mobile warfare style. It is a semi attempt at a fun list that can deal with most stuff and i thought maybee some better autocannons on a "tough" chasis would help.
Atm i run something along the line of this:

Renegade commander: Warlord, basic warlord trait of +1 ld aura, Covenant of khorne,
Renegade commander:

2x10 Command squads: autocannon, plasma guns, command voxes.

2xChimeras, Multilaser, heavy bolter

2x6 marauders: once with Meltas, once with flamers, rest is shotguns

1x Valkyrie: multilaser 2x rocketpods

1x10 Marauders: 2 sniperrifles

Salamander scout tank: autocannon, Heavy stubber, Heavy bolter.

Rest is filled with cheap chaff (usually 20 men militia blobs with chaos sigil and voxes)

I thought about a R&H list & the only units that are 'worth' playing - even in a casual environment are Hellhounds, Disciples, Command Squads & Marauders. Maybe some Coven Psykers, but thats about it. Hellhounds for themselves are
incredible, Stalker-Marauders with Plasma / Melta are cool Ruin-Campers and Heavy Weapons that hit on 3+ are a good reason for Disciples. Other than that, i'd go with a mixed CSM Cultists heavy list & springle some R&H in there.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
What is the best counter to knights for Chaos for a tournament setting? I get havocs with lascannons with prescience and VOTLW do ok (of course if the warlord is a 3++ rotated ion shields even refiring the havocs may not make a huge dent). But practically the havocs will just die the next turn as the knight moves up 10 inches and blasts the models. It may be possible to bring a few groups of havocs but this will leave the list weak against most armies that spam models (prior tournament meta). Similarly this basically nukes the idea of predators, defilers, soul grinders, etc....

To get around the invul it seems death hex and/or skullreaver are the best bets. TSons smite may help (a bit) but when digging through 28 wounds is not really the most reliable way of dropping a knight. our typical go to for ranged fire support -oblits - seems kind of janky as even with optimal rolls by mathhammer, they only little over half kill a knight on refire and will for sure die instantly the following turn to conflag cannon or other dakka (as their range is only 24 inches and will lose the -1 to hit for alpha within 12). Sitting at 3W they are also just begging for arminger fire (3Dmg)

I've thought about using meltas on some of my chars as they can hide with the character targeting rule but range is kind of shallow, and even at 8S against 8T and a 4++ will only connect 1/4 of the time (one turn essentially out of the game in a tournament setting)...

Using melee to get around the invul seems perhaps a solution but I can't find melee units able to toe the knight well - daemon princes literally do 8 wounds or so on average before being one shot. Skullreaver is actually a strong option, but to put everything into one model (ecsp if the opponent just runs away with ranged knights), isn't ideal.

What are our go-to knight counters? (that are practical in a tournament setting beyond a one game, 1v1 matchup)

Well, we could bring our own knight as well. Alternatively, bring lots and lots of lascannons, bring Abbadon, and try and shoot them off the table I suppose. I remember a list here floating around, black legion shooty. It boosted 23 lascannons or something.

 akaean wrote:
make sure you are playing that right. They cannot walk past infantry squads. they can fall back through them, but in the movement phase they cannot step over your infantry. So they are actually a bit easier to screen than you experienced and it sounds like your opponent inadvertently cheated by giving his knights added mobility. Also remember that Knights cannot pass through ruins or other walls that infantry can move through and the limits of their mobility can really start to take effect.

Of course your opponent was playing with magical flying knights that propel themselves through the air on rainbow farts over your models.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
What is the best counter to knights for Chaos for a tournament setting? I get havocs with lascannons with prescience and VOTLW do ok (of course if the warlord is a 3++ rotated ion shields even refiring the havocs may not make a huge dent). But practically the havocs will just die the next turn as the knight moves up 10 inches and blasts the models. It may be possible to bring a few groups of havocs but this will leave the list weak against most armies that spam models (prior tournament meta). Similarly this basically nukes the idea of predators, defilers, soul grinders, etc....

To get around the invul it seems death hex and/or skullreaver are the best bets. TSons smite may help (a bit) but when digging through 28 wounds is not really the most reliable way of dropping a knight. our typical go to for ranged fire support -oblits - seems kind of janky as even with optimal rolls by mathhammer, they only little over half kill a knight on refire and will for sure die instantly the following turn to conflag cannon or other dakka (as their range is only 24 inches and will lose the -1 to hit for alpha within 12). Sitting at 3W they are also just begging for arminger fire (3Dmg)

I've thought about using meltas on some of my chars as they can hide with the character targeting rule but range is kind of shallow, and even at 8S against 8T and a 4++ will only connect 1/4 of the time (one turn essentially out of the game in a tournament setting)...

Using melee to get around the invul seems perhaps a solution but I can't find melee units able to toe the knight well - daemon princes literally do 8 wounds or so on average before being one shot. Skullreaver is actually a strong option, but to put everything into one model (ecsp if the opponent just runs away with ranged knights), isn't ideal.

What are our go-to knight counters? (that are practical in a tournament setting beyond a one game, 1v1 matchup)

Well, we could bring our own knight as well. Alternatively, bring lots and lots of lascannons, bring Abbadon, and try and shoot them off the table I suppose. I remember a list here floating around, black legion shooty. It boosted 23 lascannons or something.

That was mine.

Played it against a Knight list last week, including a Valliant and a couple Castellans. Took down 2 Knights before getting tabled.

While the outcome did not favor Chaos, the game could have gone either way. The last Knight was down to 8 wounds at the end of the game. Had he not made a couple invulnerable saves, I would have had it. We're going to play again and this time I'm bringing as many Cultists as possible.

My main observation is preventing Knights from stepping into your lines is very important. They have great movement and can walk past infantry squads, so screens only mean something if they include a ton of bodies. Preventing your opponent from physically placing their models where they want seems like a big part of how Chaos wins against IKs. Even when they're moving 12 inches, they have to find a place for that huge base.

orkswubwub wrote:
If you could post the list - but again going to my point, 23 lascannon list (at least historically) has NOT been tournament competitive. You will get owned by hordes of models / other competitive armies etc. It's not hard to think up an "anti-tank" list in general, but how much anti-tank is enough to deal with knights but not make the army niche.

 blackmage wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
I don't think you can split attacks from a single weapon.

you can split them, read carefully below

 lindsay40k wrote:
Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...

Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.

On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.

The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.

0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48

Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.

Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...

Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.

On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.

The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.

0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48

Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.

Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.

 blackmage wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...

Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.

On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.

The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.

0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48

Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.

Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.

reading your replies i dont understand what kind of game you play. I think you never played 1 single tournament/competitive match in your life (dont take that like offense pls). U must buy an expensive unit (plus a rhino to deliver them) spend a command point, +cast a 7cw power (barring some bonus 50% times it goes off) then hope they roll good with random profile, wont be rude but really too much randomness and point cost

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The shootiest Khorne unit is probably the Lord of skulls, with the Daemon forge strategem giving it reroll to hit and reroll to wound.

Dactylartha wrote:
Have you tried 20 near the Crimson Crown?

Also, I just realized Crimson Crown works for shooting too? Is there any good synergy from CSM Daemonkin shooters near it?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...

Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.

On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.

The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.

0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48

Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.

Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Have you tried 20 near the Crimson Crown?

Also, I just realized Crimson Crown works for shooting too? Is there any good synergy from CSM Daemonkin shooters near it?

LoS is of course the best option; Greater Brass Scorpion is... worth a look, especially if you Warptime it, but don’t buy it for it; three C-Beam Decimators will probably get an extra shot a turn out of it (but again, don’t throw a fistful of money away just because you can do this *today*); Defiler isn’t ideal as it probably wants to be moving (and remains somewhat overcosted); Forgefiends have pretty good synergy - with the caveat that they are even more overcosted and underpowered and this will not make them remotely worth it; Oblits can pop VotLW which has decent synergy, and even without EC or Epidemius they’re generally worth taking - and their modest range isn’t much of a drawback when your CC wearer is probably going to be moving up the board anyway

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What's the Crimson Crown do for Khorne Daemons? I don't own the daemon codex

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...

Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.

On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.

The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.

0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48

Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.

Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.

Yes, with possessed. DTtFE + IoE + Prescience & The Masque's +1 is actually DTtFE triggering on a 3+. IoE is worded to stop at 5+, Prescience gives flat +1 to hit & so does the Masque. Locus of Grace additional attacks don't trigger - iirc - DTtFE hits, but that's still almost
doubling your attacks. One thing i will test is to use Mutilators. They're reasonable priced but with S6-8 (or 7-9 with a Herald) and DTtFE there's a good chance they can flatten a Knight. Also VotLW interacts with LoG, doesn't it? VotLW is a +1 to wound & LoG is worded as a 6+ to wound
grants an extra attack.