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 vaklor4 wrote:
Has anyone tried out Knights yet? I played a game yesterday and used a minimum kitted one (My khorne melee knight ) as a d-carnifex. ended up my enemy took the 354 point bait, and on my turn i collapsed 18 berzerkers and a daemon prince from the left!

That's pretty much how i would play with knights as well. Use them to distract and if ignored they are going to wreck stuff, but if the opponent focus fire to make it die on turn 1 or 2 most of the rest will be able to do their thing. I have used land raiders with the same tactic in mind, the d-carnefiex is one of the best tactics around for a reason. I think that single knights will find their way into chaos lists to add som diversity, be a d-carnefex and overall look sexy. As long as they don't eat to much points I think knights i a great addition. I will get one simply because i like the model.

Plasma bikes or raptors?
What am I missing here?
3 bikes gives you 3 plasma shots, 6 at 12"
6 bolter shots, 12 at 12"
T5
6W
14"

Or raptors gives you 3 plasma shots, 6 at 12"
0 bolter shots, 2 at 12"
T4
5W
12"

If your intention is to keep them out of close combat then I'm right in thinking bikes are the obvious choice especially when they're cheaper.
I can only see raptors being useful over bikes if you hold them back until turn three to sneak them onto an objective and then you might as well keep them as cheap as possible and lose the plasma?

Plasma raptors is not ideal raptor use.
They want to melee with thier LD debuff, and ideally combo with other LD debuffs and/or things that target LD.

However, in plasma role they still got some value over bikes. They are less valuable to multi damage weapons, like plasma. And they can deepstikes.
If that's enough, it's up to you.

I thought raptors were underwhelming in cc? Wouldn't you be better with warp talons in that case and I thought they were generally considered trash...

I like Plasma raptors to drop on objectives when needed, but that’s probably not the best use of a 126 point 5 man squad

They ARE underwhelming in CC.
Until you factor in Ld debuff stacking, and then they murder stuff by the virtue of being there when its time for a moral check.

You don't bother with raptors unless you get some Ld shenanigans going, or you want some DS specials.

So bikes it is for mobility. I need something to get out and score objectives. My army is too static gunline at the moment.
Would an empty rhino be a stupid idea? 70pts, will largely be ignored and if it isn't it diverts some of the opponent's anti armour

Rhinos are pretty good at a few things like blocking traffic and sometimes line of sight, absorbing overwatch and tying units up in combat, lobbing a few shots with cheap combibolters and a havoc launcher. I like 'em now.

Consider Renegade Legions for Chaos bikers to give them the auto advance of 6" for bikes and then charging (if they need to charge for some reason).

Though Black Legion for advancing and shooting the combibolters as assault weapons is pretty awesome, and then makes the case for plasma bikers if running with a jump or biker lord...or Abaddon dropping in. Making them Slaanesh and shooting twice, that's almost good then.

Yeah I really want to use the rapid fire as assault legion trait but just haven't found it that useful. Maybe if you still got double shots at rapid fire range it would be worth advancing to bring you into the rapid fire range but generally you're trading out 1 shot at 24" for 1 shot at 12" but at -1. Not worth it...

Abaddon303 wrote:
So bikes it is for mobility. I need something to get out and score objectives. My army is too static gunline at the moment.
Would an empty rhino be a stupid idea? 70pts, will largely be ignored and if it isn't it diverts some of the opponent's anti armour

The metal boxes takes some firepower to remove. As an obejtive-grabber i'm not sure, maybe better to have a minimum raptor squad that can deepstrike the objective late in game? 15 pts more then a rhino for a barebones squad. But the rhino will be harder to remove for sure. Playtest it and see if it works for you? I used a rhino with a 2 x 5 bare bones marine squad that jumped out turn 3-4 to rapid fire things of objectives and holding them Not that expensive but not that effective either.

What are peoples opinions on butcher cannons? And best platform for it? Been looking at a contemptor that duel wields butcher cannons. Looks good on paper but has anyone used them? Looks pretty reasonable priced to me as well 163 pts. For friendly games with good and fun lists so not hypercompetetive. And when I include a forgeworld unit in my list does it have to have it's own detachment or can I include it as an elite choose as long as it's the same legion?

Raptors are less lost if failing overcharge, but if the opponent is at his deployment line the bikers can T1 raid fire.

I'm running my Raptors as melta behind a warglaive. Bikers as flamer NL ahead of everything to clear chaff.

Hmm. Have any Renegades experimented with Fiends of Slaanesh joining a T1 charge to entangle a screen? The Warptimed Defiler/Maulerfiend approach could take on a whole new aspect with bikers joining in. Could work with Slaanesh or Nurgle (with tree). Theoretically, Raptors as well, but this isn’t an approach where you want to overkill with morale and enable your opponent to remove the model anchoring a unit to a FoS.

Has anybody been using Lord Arkos? he's expensive but I think a lot of people are overlooking something important in his 'infiltrate' rule.

unlike scouts/nurglings he can deploy right up to the enemy deployment zone and not the usual 9" away, (though he has to be 12" from the nearest enemy model) so if you get first drop you're right on your opponents doorstep!

I've had great success recently using this to deny quite a large area in front of my units to drop in cultists bombs/noise marines without having to bring nurglings in an alpha legion fluffy list,
is there another way we could use this to benefit us?

What's neat about Arkos is that he has an aura that's not redundant. That means you can combine with a regular Lord and get the most bang for your buck.

I was just looking at him earlier today as a candidate for a character assassin.

There's a pesky Haemonculus with Helm of Spite in my meta that causes all manner of annoyance to my T.Sons Supreme command, so I need to find something that can fairly reliably get a T1 charge off and just vaporise him.

Infiltrates for free, Re-rolls misses, can get +2 to wound non-vehicles when combined with VotLW. Statistically, just about kills a haemonculus through his T5/5++/6++.

5 infiltrating zerkers would do the same, and be cheaper, but the issue is that they don't do squat if I lose the roll for turn 1.

You were probably using the Berserker Marines anyway.

whynotboth.gif

Posted this earlier in general discussion, but realised here is probably the better place

So last year when I was making my Chaos lists, I had a staple of two Giant Chaos Spawn. They had the perfect balance of what I was looking for:

- Being able to convert up two big, scary models
- Good enough stats to be effective at scaring the enemy
- Cheap enough that they could be thrown into battle

HOWEVER... they used to be 75 points each (pretty decent for an inconsistent model that could die easily). They are now 150pts each (pretty expensive, like 50 points more than they're worth). The Spined Chaos Beast is now reduced to 150 points, and it seems to be all around more consistently powerful for the points. Still expensive though.

So, any thoughts on a replacement?

The army is a kind of themed list which would be a little long winded to go into, and anything you suggest I could probably convert to fit. There's few 'human' units though, beyond the characters and a noise marine party wagon. The rest being constructs and engines of some sort. Leviathan Dread being the showpiece big unit.

Edit:
Adding some detail to current thoughts on other units.

Want to try and have a characterful 'command' squad, so I'd like to have at least a Lord and a Sorcerer. Maybe two lords, or a champion (or even lucius or someone if there's worthwhile use of points to be had). This could be merged with the next thing:

A Mhara Gal style demon prince. Maybe just a converted contemptor or similar. Wings might be tricky though, and not sure if a Prince on foot is any use? (Might be another question I need to ask). Considering having 2 or even 3 Princes... (obviously would mean dropping the sorcerers/lords in exchange).

A Leviathan Dread (converted from a Thanatar). Probably twin Butcher Array, or a Butcher/GravFlux combo... Dont think it's worth keeping a melee weapon on it?

Considering 10 Noise Marines (2x 5man squads) in a Rhino, which could then be converted into a party bus. Not sure on this one again, just sounds like a fun idea. 5 or 6 NM instead would be cheaper, and would allow a character to join them.

trasigtsonster wrote:
What are peoples opinions on butcher cannons? And best platform for it? Been looking at a contemptor that duel wields butcher cannons. Looks good on paper but has anyone used them? Looks pretty reasonable priced to me as well 163 pts. For friendly games with good and fun lists so not hypercompetetive. And when I include a forgeworld unit in my list does it have to have it's own detachment or can I include it as an elite choose as long as it's the same legion?

I'm a big fan. Especially for DG. Dual butcher Contemptors and Leviathans are both good options, just depends whether or not you want flexibility or durability.

Niiru wrote:
So last year when I was making my Chaos lists, I had a staple of two Giant Chaos Spawn. They had the perfect balance of what I was looking for:

- Being able to convert up two big, scary models
- Good enough stats to be effective at scaring the enemy
- Cheap enough that they could be thrown into battle

HOWEVER... they used to be 75 points each (pretty decent for an inconsistent model that could die easily). They are now 150pts each (pretty expensive, like 50 points more than they're worth). The Spined Chaos Beast is now reduced to 150 points, and it seems to be all around more consistently powerful for the points. Still expensive though.

Where do you find the increase in points?

I looked in the Imperial Armour Index: Force of Chaos FAQ from June, but there are no points increases there, that I can see?
I checked the Combat Roster too, which still has the Giant Chaos Spawns as 5 power level, but of course I don't expect it to be updated correctly nessecarily.

Also while we're at talking about Giant Chaos Spawns. Do you read the newest FAQ to mean that they also get Disgustingly Resillience?

@Niiru

RE Noise Marines: a squad of ten can have two Blastmasters, which makes Endless Cacophony & VOtLW Areally something

If you can keep your Leviathan or Contemptor well screened, two big guns is probably fine. Tyranid players are tending to give dakkafexes a melee head option instead of the +1BS head for flexibility, but we don’t have that option.

I did have Mhara Gal in mind when I made this

Spiky Norman wrote:

Niiru wrote:
So last year when I was making my Chaos lists, I had a staple of two Giant Chaos Spawn. They had the perfect balance of what I was looking for:

- Being able to convert up two big, scary models
- Good enough stats to be effective at scaring the enemy
- Cheap enough that they could be thrown into battle

HOWEVER... they used to be 75 points each (pretty decent for an inconsistent model that could die easily). They are now 150pts each (pretty expensive, like 50 points more than they're worth). The Spined Chaos Beast is now reduced to 150 points, and it seems to be all around more consistently powerful for the points. Still expensive though.

Where do you find the increase in points?

I looked in the Imperial Armour Index: Force of Chaos FAQ from June, but there are no points increases there, that I can see?
I checked the Combat Roster too, which still has the Giant Chaos Spawns as 5 power level, but of course I don't expect it to be updated correctly nessecarily.

Also while we're at talking about Giant Chaos Spawns. Do you read the newest FAQ to mean that they also get Disgustingly Resillience?

I'd imagine Chapter Approved.

Spiky Norman wrote:

Niiru wrote:
So last year when I was making my Chaos lists, I had a staple of two Giant Chaos Spawn. They had the perfect balance of what I was looking for:

- Being able to convert up two big, scary models
- Good enough stats to be effective at scaring the enemy
- Cheap enough that they could be thrown into battle

HOWEVER... they used to be 75 points each (pretty decent for an inconsistent model that could die easily). They are now 150pts each (pretty expensive, like 50 points more than they're worth). The Spined Chaos Beast is now reduced to 150 points, and it seems to be all around more consistently powerful for the points. Still expensive though.

Where do you find the increase in points?

I looked in the Imperial Armour Index: Force of Chaos FAQ from June, but there are no points increases there, that I can see?
I checked the Combat Roster too, which still has the Giant Chaos Spawns as 5 power level, but of course I don't expect it to be updated correctly nessecarily.

Also while we're at talking about Giant Chaos Spawns. Do you read the newest FAQ to mean that they also get Disgustingly Resillience?

Chapter approved.

Giant Chaos Spawn changed from 75pts to 150pts.
Spined Chaos Beast changed from 190pts to 150pts.

I do vaguely remember an errata that changed some of the rules in the IA book, but I can't remember if it added god marks to the spawn or not.

They both indeed choose marks now, as daemons the way princes and furies do. (so you get the associated power up.

Nurgle is the best. DR is really too good compared to the other guards on ANYTHING.
Tzeentch is passable, being another defense buff but not as strong.
Slanessh is meh, only useful when something actually stays in combat with them, or charges them.
Khorne is totally useless for them, as they got tons of attacks anyway.
Rather thematic actually.

 BoomWolf wrote:
They both indeed choose marks now, as daemons the way princes and furies do. (so you get the associated power up.

Nurgle is the best. DR is really too good compared to the other guards on ANYTHING.
Tzeentch is passable, being another defense buff but not as strong.
Slanessh is meh, only useful when something actually stays in combat with them, or charges them.
Khorne is totally useless for them, as they got tons of attacks anyway.
Rather thematic actually.

Yeh, I had them down as Nurgle Giant Spawn. Not sure they're worth 150 points though, when I could get a double-blastmaster + power scourge hellbrute for that much.

Well, the (nurgle) giant spawn is harder to take down than a brute, even before you factor the healing.
And once you manage to get into combat-it gets big. FAST.
In fact, its a pretty good answer to wrap units. they can handle it at all and he'll quickly swell while fighting them.

Thing is, giant spawns are meant for chaos daemon armies, not CSM armies.
If you are a mixed army, especially with slannesh being a major portion-go noise brute 100%.
But at an army centered around nurgle (or even tzeentch) daemons, its mostly likely better to take a giant spawn.

Niiru wrote:
Chapter approved.

Giant Chaos Spawn changed from 75pts to 150pts.
Spined Chaos Beast changed from 190pts to 150pts.

I do vaguely remember an errata that changed some of the rules in the IA book, but I can't remember if it added god marks to the spawn or not.

Ah yes of course. Found it in Chapter approved. Thanks!

A doubling in price for the same rules that wasn't a steal at 75? FW points are crazy as always :-)

Spiky Norman wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Chapter approved.

Giant Chaos Spawn changed from 75pts to 150pts.
Spined Chaos Beast changed from 190pts to 150pts.

I do vaguely remember an errata that changed some of the rules in the IA book, but I can't remember if it added god marks to the spawn or not.

Ah yes of course. Found it in Chapter approved. Thanks!

A doubling in price for the same rules that wasn't a steal at 75? FW points are crazy as always :-)

Once they got the daemonic allegiance buffs, they were absolutely a steal at 75 points. Was doubling them excessive? Sure. But not surprised they got nerfed. Same as Malefic Lords.

Spiky Norman wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Chapter approved.

Giant Chaos Spawn changed from 75pts to 150pts.
Spined Chaos Beast changed from 190pts to 150pts.

I do vaguely remember an errata that changed some of the rules in the IA book, but I can't remember if it added god marks to the spawn or not.

Ah yes of course. Found it in Chapter approved. Thanks!

A doubling in price for the same rules that wasn't a steal at 75? FW points are crazy as always :-)

I mean in fairness, they probably were a steal at 75 points! But I'm not sure it's worth 150. Though it's hard to find a better option for a nurgle themed 'big nasty'. Blight Haulers and Bloat-Drones are possibilities.

Blade of the hydra or puscleaver if points don't matter? Puscleaver always wounding on 2+ (except against vehcs) seems pretty decent anticharacter - whereas blade of the hydra will have 2 extra attack (on average) but be wounding on 3-4's unless hitting chaffe. Also the 2 flat from hydra is nice for consistency...

That depends on what the HQ is like. Against a Custodes Bike the Puscleaver is gonna give more bang for the buck, even with those potential extra attacks the Blade could give.

Against Slamguinus you're probably just gonna want to go Blade. I haven't done the Mathhammer but I imagine that's how it'll go. You probably won't get stuck fighting meatshields.