8th ed CHAOS tactica

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**Niiru**

vaklor4 wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).

So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.

However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."

So... Can't I have a detachment like this:

Chaos Lord <Emperors Children>
Chaos Lord <World Eaters>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children>
5x Berzerkers <World Eaters>

And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?

Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).

Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.

Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...

They are troops inside of a World Eaters and Emp. Children Detachment. If you put Zerkers into an emp children detachment, they are still elites.

I agree that that's the intention of the rule, but it's not RAW (as far as I can see).

I doubt I'll ever play it like that, but I just found it interesting.

**Ap0k**

All units in an Emperors Children detachment must bear the Mark of Slaanesh for it to be considered an Emperors Children army.

Same with MoK for World Eaters.

I can't remember the exact page number, but it's on the pages where the Legion Traits are listed.

**ClockworkZion**

Aelyn wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
I was listening to a podcast recently and I heard an interesting claim: to make melee CSM effective we need to put most (around 75%) of our points into melee options and basically throw all that at the opponent while the rest hangs back to handle the support stuff (like Lascannon Havocs to help crack armour).

Anyone agree with this, or have different thoughts?
So... To make melee good, you need to invest in melee?

Honestly I'm not sure what's supposed to be so interesting or unusual about that claim.

It was more that if you're going to try and be effective in melee you really have to go fairly heavy in the melee options, though not 100% as melee will still need support stuff (I mean Berserkers are good, but Havocs with Lascannons will crack Land Raiders better).

I usually see most melee options being a single hammer unit in lists (maybe two hammers) so I was just curious what other people's takes on the claim were.

**Niiru**

Ap0k wrote:
All units in an Emperors Children detachment must bear the Mark of Slaanesh for it to be considered an Emperors Children army.

Same with MoK for World Eaters.

I can't remember the exact page number, but it's on the pages where the Legion Traits are listed.

Nope, nothing on those pages saying that.

There's a thing about all units needing to be the same legion in order to get the legion trait, which I already mentioned before, but nothing else.

**trasigtsonster**

Niiru wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).

So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.

However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."

So... Can't I have a detachment like this:

Chaos Lord <Emperors Children>
Chaos Lord <World Eaters>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children>
5x Berzerkers <World Eaters>

And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?

Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).

Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.

Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...

They are troops inside of a World Eaters and Emp. Children Detachment. If you put Zerkers into an emp children detachment, they are still elites.

I agree that that's the intention of the rule, but it's not RAW (as far as I can see).

I doubt I'll ever play it like that, but I just found it interesting.

From the FAQ:

"Page 116 – <Mark of Chaos>
Add the following to the last paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh
keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion,
and if a unit has the Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle
keywords, it cannot be from the Emperor’s Children
Legion. In addition, Psykers cannot be from the World
Eaters Legion.’"

So worldeaters can only have mark of Khorne. And :

"Page 132 – Khorne Berzerkers, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of World
Eaters Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.’

Page 135 – Noise Marines, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Masters of the Kakophoni: The Battlefield Role of
Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead
of Elites.’"

World eaters get berzerkers as troops. For it to be an worldeater detachment it has to be MoK. Sonics get MoS. And everything in a Emperors children detachment has to have MoS so no berzerkers.

To get Legion trait in a detachment everything has to be the same legion (Codex page 157). Since the detachment won't read as either WE or EC it wont get the legiontrait and therefor cant use either as troops.

**Niiru**

trasigtsonster wrote:
Niiru wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).

So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.

However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."

So... Can't I have a detachment like this:

Chaos Lord <Emperors Children>
Chaos Lord <World Eaters>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children>
5x Berzerkers <World Eaters>

And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?

Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).

Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.

Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...

They are troops inside of a World Eaters and Emp. Children Detachment. If you put Zerkers into an emp children detachment, they are still elites.

I agree that that's the intention of the rule, but it's not RAW (as far as I can see).

I doubt I'll ever play it like that, but I just found it interesting.

From the FAQ:

"Page 116 – <Mark of Chaos>
Add the following to the last paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh
keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion,
and if a unit has the Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle
keywords, it cannot be from the Emperor’s Children
Legion. In addition, Psykers cannot be from the World
Eaters Legion.’"

So worldeaters can only have mark of Khorne. And :

"Page 132 – Khorne Berzerkers, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of World
Eaters Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.’

Page 135 – Noise Marines, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Masters of the Kakophoni: The Battlefield Role of
Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead
of Elites.’"

World eaters get berzerkers as troops. For it to be an worldeater detachment it has to be MoK. Sonics get MoS. And everything in a Emperors children detachment has to have MoS so no berzerkers.

To get Legion trait in a detachment everything has to be the same legion (Codex page 157). Since the detachment won't read as either WE or EC it wont get the legiontrait and therefor cant use either as troops.

None of that prevents what I said though. The detachment can be:

Sorceror <Emperors Children> <Slaanesh>
Chaos Lord <World Eaters> <Khorne>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children> <Slaanesh>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children> <Slaanesh>
5x Berzerkers <World Eaters> <Khorne>

All that FAQ says is that you can't have a Slaanesh World Eater, or a Khorne emperors children. This only prevents you from using a Khorne specific stratagem on the Children, and a Slaanesh psychic power on a world eater, which we already knew.

The detachment would still be battleforged though, and they'd still count as troops with ObSec, and you'd still get 5CP out of it. Nowhere does it say that a -detachment- must be world eaters for Berzerkers to be troops, only that the unit of Berzerkers itself must be World Eaters. No rule says that all units in a detachment have to be EC in order for it to be an EC detachment.

You're mixing up the detachment rules with the legion trait rules, which I already said this detachment would get no legion traits. It would get stratagems, psychic powers, and berzerkers/noise marines as troops though, just no traits.

**trasigtsonster**

Niiru wrote:

None of that prevents what I said though. The detachment can be:

Sorceror <Emperors Children> <Slaanesh>
Chaos Lord <World Eaters> <Khorne>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children> <Slaanesh>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children> <Slaanesh>
5x Berzerkers <World Eaters> <Khorne>

All that FAQ says is that you can't have a Slaanesh World Eater, or a Khorne emperors children. This only prevents you from using a Khorne specific stratagem on the Children, and a Slaanesh psychic power on a world eater, which we already knew.

The detachment would still be battleforged though, and they'd still count as troops with ObSec, and you'd still get 5CP out of it. Nowhere does it say that a -detachment- must be world eaters for Berzerkers to be troops, only that the unit of Berzerkers itself must be World Eaters. No rule says that all units in a detachment have to be EC in order for it to be an EC detachment.

You're mixing up the detachment rules with the legion trait rules, which I already said this detachment would get no legion traits. It would get stratagems, psychic powers, and berzerkers/noise marines as troops though, just no traits.

Ah, I think you are right. As you wrote somewhere else, it's most likely not the intention but nothing in the wording prevents it.

**Niiru**

trasigtsonster wrote:
Niiru wrote:

None of that prevents what I said though. The detachment can be:

Sorceror <Emperors Children> <Slaanesh>
Chaos Lord <World Eaters> <Khorne>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children> <Slaanesh>
5x Noise Marines <Emperors Children> <Slaanesh>
5x Berzerkers <World Eaters> <Khorne>

All that FAQ says is that you can't have a Slaanesh World Eater, or a Khorne emperors children. This only prevents you from using a Khorne specific stratagem on the Children, and a Slaanesh psychic power on a world eater, which we already knew.

The detachment would still be battleforged though, and they'd still count as troops with ObSec, and you'd still get 5CP out of it. Nowhere does it say that a -detachment- must be world eaters for Berzerkers to be troops, only that the unit of Berzerkers itself must be World Eaters. No rule says that all units in a detachment have to be EC in order for it to be an EC detachment.

You're mixing up the detachment rules with the legion trait rules, which I already said this detachment would get no legion traits. It would get stratagems, psychic powers, and berzerkers/noise marines as troops though, just no traits.

Ah, I think you are right. As you wrote somewhere else, it's most likely not the intention but nothing in the wording prevents it.

Yeh, to be honest I doubt I'd ever play it like that, as I tend to play RAI not RAW, I just found it interesting. Would avoid me having to paint up 30 cultists as a troop tax though.

**lindsay40k**

FWIW the detachment in this case would be a HERETIC ASTARTES detachment and totally legit, and there’s nothing to stop an IMPERIUM army running an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment of ULTRAMARINES and BLACK TEMPLARS - wouldn’t have the same extreme battlefield role malarkey, but it’s there

**Niiru**

lindsay40k wrote:
FWIW the detachment in this case would be a HERETIC ASTARTES detachment and totally legit, and there’s nothing to stop an IMPERIUM army running an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment of ULTRAMARINES and BLACK TEMPLARS - wouldn’t have the same extreme battlefield role malarkey, but it’s there

And we all love a bit of malarky!

Another question for the day - Is there anything in the Renegades and Heretics lists which is actually worth bringing compared to the equivalents in CSM? There's a few options I like from a fluff standpoint of renegades, but I'm not sure there's anything that's actually any better than just standard cultists or marines.

**Iur_tae_mont**

I love Running Renegades alongside my Iron Warriors, but infantry wise other than Stalker Mauraders, the Chaos Codex has them licked. I bring them for fun though.

However: Leman Russes, the Various Artillery platforms and the Hellhounds are amazing with our Codex Toys.

**Niiru**

Iur_tae_mont wrote:
I love Running Renegades alongside my Iron Warriors, but infantry wise other than Stalker Mauraders, the Chaos Codex has them licked. I bring them for fun though.

However: Leman Russes, the Various Artillery platforms and the Hellhounds are amazing with our Codex Toys.

I have to say, a Hellhound has me interested. The Inferno Cannon on it is what I wish the Hellforged Predator had access to.

**timetowaste85**

So, dumb question (haven’t played 8th yet, despite having most of the rulebooks); can I run Magnus, Mortarion and a renegade knight (until the other Daemon Primarch(s) come out as a three LoW detachment? Do I need anything else in there? Other than filling up points.

**drakerocket**

timetowaste85 wrote:
So, dumb question (haven’t played 8th yet, despite having most of the rulebooks); can I run Magnus, Mortarion and a renegade knight (until the other Daemon Primarch(s) come out as a three LoW detachment? Do I need anything else in there? Other than filling up points.

You cannot because the knight lacks a common keyword since Chaos doesn't count. He's not heretic astares, though I wish he was since I wanted to do something similar. Now you ~ can ~ run those two and a Lord of Skulls, which I've been deeply considering.

**timetowaste85**

Ok. Can he be a separate “allies” detachment, and be his own LoW? Or is it flat out impossible to have the Knight in the list with the two Daemon Primarchs?

I actually have the end goal plan of running all 4 Daemon Primarchs when the last two hit. I don’t care how tough or weak it might be, I just really want to run a Daemon Primarch of each of the four Ruinous Powers, all working together. While it would be kind of recent fluff breaking, it would be a nice return to their previous brotherhood.

**orkswubwub**

Fluffy question - if you were going for semi-competitive what models / units work best with skarbrands ability? I understand the easy answer is "don't bring skarbrand" but lets assume the list is built around him as a cornerstone. Bloodletters look appetizing in maybe a patrol with skarbrand(?) so the reroll to failed charge rolls. Taking a full batallion of 90 letters seems overkill (as you need to banner and deepstrike every unit) and the charge reroll looks crucial.

I'm trying to make a list around the extra attacks skarbrand gives with the 8 inch aura, i realize he must deepstrike and also probably needs the invuls strat to have even a prayer of surviving one turn - but the 8 inch maybe can be used.

To add a little more - i was thinking about taking plagues with spoilpox and a DP - with virulent and the extra attack - plus the extra attacks on a 6 with spoilpox - the plagues could do some damage

**StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds**

Just had a 2500 point game against IG with Slaaneshi daemons backed by a dual thermal cannon knight. That knight was killing at least one tank a turn and soaking a ton of damage. Sadly he got first turn and wiped most of my daemons, but that knight did work

**ClockworkZion**

timetowaste85 wrote:
Ok. Can he be a separate “allies” detachment, and be his own LoW? Or is it flat out impossible to have the Knight in the list with the two Daemon Primarchs?

I actually have the end goal plan of running all 4 Daemon Primarchs when the last two hit. I don’t care how tough or weak it might be, I just really want to run a Daemon Primarch of each of the four Ruinous Powers, all working together. While it would be kind of recent fluff breaking, it would be a nice return to their previous brotherhood.

Put the Knight into an Super Heavy Auxillary detachment separate from the Primarchs.

You could put two Knights with (say) Mortarion into a Super Heavy detachment if you mark the Knights up for Nurgle (thus giving them a keyword to share), but since ol' Rick and Morty (as the Internet as dubbed their combo) don't share gods, you can't use marks to fix the problem.

**drakerocket**

Can knights take a mark? I don't think they can.

**Wolf_in_Human_Shape**

They can’t.

**lindsay40k**

Four hypothetical Daemon Primarchs in a HERETIC ASTARTES Super-Heavy Detachment works, +1CP

The two current Daemon Primarchs and a Spartan or Lord of Skulls in the same works, +1CP

Three Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachments each with Rick, Morty, or a Knight works, CP neutral, awkward for tournaments using limits on detachments

Worth noting you can sneak a cheeky Primarch into a LEGION, DEITY, or HERETIC ASTARTES Supreme Command Detachment

**ClockworkZion**

Well I feel right silly about the Mark thing. I guess I've been staring at other chaos vehicles too much and just assumed that a knight that fell to Chaos could be aligned with one of the gods.

Then again, the Renegade Knight rules are just an index so proper rules might flip that later.

**Wolf_in_Human_Shape**

Yeah, and they could take marks in the last edition, so it wasn't an unreasonable assumption. One wonders why they can't this time around. *shrug*

**ClockworkZion**

Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Yeah, and they could take marks in the last edition, so it wasn't an unreasonable assumption. One wonders why they can't this time around. *shrug*

Considering how little we have in terms of options I guess it's not too much of a surprise, but it's definitely an inconvenience.

**lucas**

Can someone please clarify for me that Obliterators in a CSM (all mark of nurgle) detachment can still be in a battle forged army with and epidemius Nurgle Daemon detachment and the only downside is that they won't benefit from the stratagems?

Or do oblits no longer count for epidemius' count because they don't have the Daemon faction keyword?

**JNAProductions**

They are still both Nurgle and Daemons, so they count up the Tally.

**blackmage**

You could put two Knights with (say) Mortarion into a Super Heavy detachment if you mark the Knights up for Nurgle (thus giving them a keyword to share), but since ol' Rick and Morty (as the Internet as dubbed their combo) don't share gods, you can't use marks to fix the problem.

you can play Morty+Magnus+LOS in same superheavy they share heretic astartes kw

**timetowaste85**

LoS? Lord of Skulls, I assume? I’ve been considering one for years. Hmmm...worthwhile to run the 3?

**lindsay40k**

lucas wrote:
Can someone please clarify for me that Obliterators in a CSM (all mark of nurgle) detachment can still be in a battle forged army with and epidemius Nurgle Daemon detachment and the only downside is that they won't benefit from the stratagems?

Or do oblits no longer count for epidemius' count because they don't have the Daemon faction keyword?

You can take NURGLE as a detachment keyword, you are correct that mixing daemons and CSM units will mean it doesn’t unlock any Stratagems.

Faction keywords become regular keywords once the battle begins, so Oblits are indeed NURGLE DAEMON units. They’ll boost Epi, and even get rerolls off a Daemon Prince that isn’t HERETIC ASTARTES.

**blackmage**

timetowaste85 wrote:
LoS? Lord of Skulls, I assume? I’ve been considering one for years. Hmmm...worthwhile to run the 3?

yes is lord of skull, you can run him or Kitan engine cheaper. I dont know if it is worthwile, but guess lot of "below top" lists will have hard times deal with those 3.

Faction keywords become regular keywords once the battle begins

means? faction kw is faction kw dont understand what means become regular (does a regular kw ever exist?) once battle begins, for me is no sense what you say