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All a question of how close you drop and what your intention is.

consider they cost a lot and the best they get is at 12" (rapid fire) great plan put them away from enemy so they can eat tons of bullets before get somewhere, if that is whe way to play termies well good luck, i dont add any more words.

 blackmage wrote:

All a question of how close you drop and what your intention is.

consider they cost a lot and the best they get is at 12" (rapid fire) great plan put them away from enemy so they can eat tons of bullets before get somewhere, if that is whe way to play termies well good luck, i dont add any more words.

Even in rapid fire range they suck, except wehn you spam combi plasma but that makes them so overpriced you might aswell not play them. It really does not matter since their DPS is stunted anyways. Might aswell make them into pure bullet catchers then no?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

All a question of how close you drop and what your intention is.

consider they cost a lot and the best they get is at 12" (rapid fire) great plan put them away from enemy so they can eat tons of bullets before get somewhere, if that is whe way to play termies well good luck, i dont add any more words.

Even in rapid fire range they suck, except wehn you spam combi plasma but that makes them so overpriced you might aswell not play them. It really does not matter since their DPS is stunted anyways. Might aswell make them into pure bullet catchers then no?

imagine how much they sucks beyond rapid fire range as proposed above to get Al legion trait, btw i played blight lords more than 1 time and played right they dont suck.

edit: ignore me, hadn't refreshed and convo moved on

I'm looking into a renegade knight or 2 to add some fire support to my Chaos/Daemons army. Having scoured the PDF, I was just wondering what the consensus was on the Battlecannon, it seems less reliable than the Avenger, but has the range advantage.

Is there a space for the Thermal cannon as well?

Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
How much use is there for the kharybdis assault claw?

Try deploying it at the start with twenty Noise Marines aboard. First turn, they disembark to extend their reach an extra 3”, and a load of shock troops get aboard. Warptime it, give it Delightful Agonies, maybe Prescience or Diabolic Strength, and make an absolute mess of your opponent’s lines. Double points if you throw some Fiends of Slaanesh into the T1 charge and nobody can run away from it. You’ll need a distraction Carnifex if you lose T1 or can’t hide it.

Well, a 10 Scarab blob with a termi sorcerer can still cause quite some carnage with spell stacking and VotLW

Asura Varuna wrote:
I'm looking into a renegade knight or 2 to add some fire support to my Chaos/Daemons army. Having scoured the PDF, I was just wondering what the consensus was on the Battlecannon, it seems less reliable than the Avenger, but has the range advantage.

Is there a space for the Thermal cannon as well?

the only real strenght of renegade IK's is the double gatling, respect empire one's, is the best weapon you can use, thermal cannon is unreliable, only d6/2d6 shots

Asura Varuna wrote:
I'm looking into a renegade knight or 2 to add some fire support to my Chaos/Daemons army. Having scoured the PDF, I was just wondering what the consensus was on the Battlecannon, it seems less reliable than the Avenger, but has the range advantage.

Is there a space for the Thermal cannon as well?

I use a double battlecannon + rockets on my knight and it's.... alright. The 72" range means that it's easy to keep out of harms way (the rest of my army is quite aggressive), and when it rolls well, it can hit really hard. It's definitely better for taking out vehicles and other hard targets than the avenger is. The downsides are the pointscost (even after codex adjustment) and the randomness. I've definitely had turns where it gets off like 5 or 6 shots, which isn't what you want from a 550 point model. Keeping it at range also means you're not making use of the knight's fantastic combat abilities either, which is a bit of a waist.

If I had to respec it, I would probably go with double avengers + rockets just for reliability, or for a melee fist/sword loadout because they're cheap as hell at around 350pts.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.

Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.

Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.

Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.

Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...

Bezerkers are widely considered to be the best option for infiltration. Cheap and deadly.

I'd really like to see a stratagem added to the game that allows you to add D3 to your charge roll after deepstriking for terminator units (1CP). Having a 25% chance of getting your charge off is just too low for such an elite unit. You can't afford to bring 3-4 of them like you can with other units.

Primortus wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.

Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.

Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...

Bezerkers are widely considered to be the best option for infiltration. Cheap and deadly.

I'd really like to see a stratagem added to the game that allows you to add D3 to your charge roll after deepstriking for terminator units (1CP). Having a 25% chance of getting your charge off is just too low for such an elite unit. You can't afford to bring 3-4 of them like you can with other units.

Is it 25% chance? Surely you'd give them the Icon to reroll failed charges, or use a CP reroll on a dice. I don't know what that increases the odds to though, but spending 1cp is certainly worth it for a big expensive unit like that if that was your plan.

Edit - it raises the odds to about 50%, so still not great. But it's a more likely baseline than 25%.

Edit 2 - I just found out that they changed the Helbrute wargear back in april, and you can now have double Scourges. 11 attacks from a dread... might be worth a conversion!

Niiru wrote:

Primortus wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.

Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.

Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...

Bezerkers are widely considered to be the best option for infiltration. Cheap and deadly.

I'd really like to see a stratagem added to the game that allows you to add D3 to your charge roll after deepstriking for terminator units (1CP). Having a 25% chance of getting your charge off is just too low for such an elite unit. You can't afford to bring 3-4 of them like you can with other units.

Is it 25% chance? Surely you'd give them the Icon to reroll failed charges, or use a CP reroll on a dice. I don't know what that increases the odds to though, but spending 1cp is certainly worth it for a big expensive unit like that if that was your plan.

Edit - it raises the odds to about 50%, so still not great. But it's a more likely baseline than 25%.

Edit 2 - I just found out that they changed the Helbrute wargear back in april, and you can now have double Scourges. 11 attacks from a dread... might be worth a conversion!

I was thinking about scarabs and deathguard terminators, since that's what people mentioned earlier. With a CP reroll and gaze of fate you can get up to 44% but I still feel like that's too low for such an expensive, elite unit. Especially when you consider how slow terminators move, you'll probably only get one chance to deal damage in assault.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
Well dang, fallen seem a bit difficult to add to a list now.

Dactylartha wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
I've been thinking about making a slaaneshi daemon list with some fallen support, plus a leviathan. How does a 2k list like this look?

Spoiler:

Slaaneshi Battalion
2X double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
6X10 daemonettes
2X5 seekers

CSM Vanguard
Cypher
3X5 fallen w/ 4 plasma gun 1 plasma pistol
Double grav flux bombard Leviathan

I don't know how the list would work as a whole, but to me it appears you don't have many hard targets. I love my Fallen, but getting into 24" range on foot can be a problem, especially hammer and anvil, and getting into 12" is unrealistic.

How about something more like this?

Spoiler:

Slaaneshi Battalion
Double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
5X10 daemonettes

CSM Spearhead
Slaaneshi DP w/intoxicating elixer
2XLeviathan w/drill and claw
Double grav flux bombard Leviathan

Just going all in on the leviathans and make one of the DP's the CSM murdermachine. Got 6 big threat units that can kill most things they touch. Less fodder daemonettes and no seekers, but more beefy dudes. Could drop a unit of daemonettes to get a sorcerer with warptime to make some stuff move a bit faster

FYI double butcher leviathan is strictly better than double grav flux, according to a mathhammer analysis on the competitive subreddit. Double grav flux is a trap. It's actually the worst of all of the loadouts due to there simply not being enough shots for the math to outperform 16 S8 D2 butcher shots in almost all shooting scenarios.

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.

Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.

Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...

yes then the moment you lost initive or opponet steal you start cry. Guys you should ask yourself why those tactics never worked, no one inflitrare terminators, termies are useful cause they can ds and fire/assault without retaliations, if worked like that why no one infiltrate obliterators too? i understand most here play garagehammer but cmon

 blackmage wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.

Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.

Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...

yes then the moment you lost initive or opponet steal you start cry. Guys you should ask yourself why those tactics never worked, no one inflitrare terminators, termies are useful cause they can ds and fire/assault without retaliations, if worked like that why no one infiltrate obliterators too? i understand most here play garagehammer but cmon

Honestly can't take your responses seriously. You're always so patronising, acting like you're the authority on anything competitive, but I've had to correct you on several occasions because you've quoted incorrect rules or bad math. Actually it's not worth it, just putting him on the ignore list, better for my mental health.

You're saying Oblits and Termis work best as a turn 2/3 deepstrike unit, with a 50/50 chance of making the charge (for the termis, not the oblits obviously). Personally, I prefer the much higher chance (80+%?) of using forward ops on the termis and having them move and charge turn 1 for an actual alpha strike. Using Forward Ops on the Oblits is less useful as you won't charge with them anyway, but getting them on the board a whole turn earlier might be worthwhile depending on the opponent. This relies on first turn though.

But seeing as a lot of tournament army lists are designed around the hopes of having first turn for alpha strikes, this is hardly unusual. It's just the way the game is designed. Whoever gets first turn often has a big advantage.

 blackmage wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
I'm looking into a renegade knight or 2 to add some fire support to my Chaos/Daemons army. Having scoured the PDF, I was just wondering what the consensus was on the Battlecannon, it seems less reliable than the Avenger, but has the range advantage.

Is there a space for the Thermal cannon as well?

the only real strenght of renegade IK's is the double gatling, respect empire one's, is the best weapon you can use, thermal cannon is unreliable, only d6/2d6 shots

A fist/sword is actually really, really strong. It's the cheapest knight you can build, and absolutely murders in melee range.

Niiru wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.

Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.

Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...

yes then the moment you lost initive or opponet steal you start cry. Guys you should ask yourself why those tactics never worked, no one inflitrare terminators, termies are useful cause they can ds and fire/assault without retaliations, if worked like that why no one infiltrate obliterators too? i understand most here play garagehammer but cmon

Honestly can't take your responses seriously. You're always so patronising, acting like you're the authority on anything competitive, but I've had to correct you on several occasions because you've quoted incorrect rules or bad math. Actually it's not worth it, just putting him on the ignore list, better for my mental health.

You're saying Oblits and Termis work best as a turn 2/3 deepstrike unit, with a 50/50 chance of making the charge (for the termis, not the oblits obviously). Personally, I prefer the much higher chance (80+%?) of using forward ops on the termis and having them move and charge turn 1 for an actual alpha strike. Using Forward Ops on the Oblits is less useful as you won't charge with them anyway, but getting them on the board a whole turn earlier might be worthwhile depending on the opponent. This relies on first turn though.

But seeing as a lot of tournament army lists are designed around the hopes of having first turn for alpha strikes, this is hardly unusual. It's just the way the game is designed. Whoever gets first turn often has a big advantage.

so keep playing ur infiltated termies , eveyone is free to play what like, but if your strategy is so strong wonder why no one ever think to use them like that, regards


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
I'm looking into a renegade knight or 2 to add some fire support to my Chaos/Daemons army. Having scoured the PDF, I was just wondering what the consensus was on the Battlecannon, it seems less reliable than the Avenger, but has the range advantage.

Is there a space for the Thermal cannon as well?

the only real strenght of renegade IK's is the double gatling, respect empire one's, is the best weapon you can use, thermal cannon is unreliable, only d6/2d6 shots

A fist/sword is actually really, really strong. It's the cheapest knight you can build, and absolutely murders in melee range.

yes it is, i was just saying the shooting version is more reliable with double gatling

Oh, doh, fair enough

i played lists with 3 IK and 2 helverins and i played often 2 melee knights, they sure are strong, or 1 shooting Ik 1 melee 2 helverins and Magnus or Mortarion, nice threat saturation.

barboggo wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
Well dang, fallen seem a bit difficult to add to a list now.

Dactylartha wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
I've been thinking about making a slaaneshi daemon list with some fallen support, plus a leviathan. How does a 2k list like this look?

Spoiler:

Slaaneshi Battalion
2X double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
6X10 daemonettes
2X5 seekers

CSM Vanguard
Cypher
3X5 fallen w/ 4 plasma gun 1 plasma pistol
Double grav flux bombard Leviathan

I don't know how the list would work as a whole, but to me it appears you don't have many hard targets. I love my Fallen, but getting into 24" range on foot can be a problem, especially hammer and anvil, and getting into 12" is unrealistic.

How about something more like this?

Spoiler:

Slaaneshi Battalion
Double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
5X10 daemonettes

CSM Spearhead
Slaaneshi DP w/intoxicating elixer
2XLeviathan w/drill and claw
Double grav flux bombard Leviathan

Just going all in on the leviathans and make one of the DP's the CSM murdermachine. Got 6 big threat units that can kill most things they touch. Less fodder daemonettes and no seekers, but more beefy dudes. Could drop a unit of daemonettes to get a sorcerer with warptime to make some stuff move a bit faster

FYI double butcher leviathan is strictly better than double grav flux, according to a mathhammer analysis on the competitive subreddit. Double grav flux is a trap. It's actually the worst of all of the loadouts due to there simply not being enough shots for the math to outperform 16 S8 D2 butcher shots in almost all shooting scenarios.

The grav is better against heavy vehicles and hordes (anything above 15 models, or less depending on the armor of the target), which are the things that the rest of the list has issues dealing with. It might not be the better loadout overall, but it covers the issues with the rest of the army well.

So I'm wanting to build an army around this core:
(WE)
8 Man Zerker Squad (icon, pfist, chainaxes)
Dark Apostle (and/or exalted champ)
Termite Assault Drill


(Alpha)
Leviathan x2 Butcher
Leviathan x2 Butcher
Leviathan x2 Butcher

And would love suggestions on what else to take. Zerkers are great but pretty much die on the enemies turn, so I don't wantto over invest. I have found that 8 is typically enough to kill what I want dead (especially with stratagems).

But in all my playing these are the units I've fallen in love with most, and nothing else has really appealed to me as an auto include.

I was considering melee hellbrutes (as they benefit from legion traits),or bloodslaughterers.

I need something that can survive holding mid field while the leviathans tear units up.


Should I ally with deamons? Invest in msu csm? Cultist blobs have proven disappointing. But hey, I'm open to any thoughts.

How do I properly support my backfield dakka, and zerker drill squad?

how did you play cultists? large black legion cultists with Abbadon, fearless 40+40+40 re rolling to hit are a real pain in the ass

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

barboggo wrote:


FYI double butcher leviathan is strictly better than double grav flux, according to a mathhammer analysis on the competitive subreddit. Double grav flux is a trap. It's actually the worst of all of the loadouts due to there simply not being enough shots for the math to outperform 16 S8 D2 butcher shots in almost all shooting scenarios.

The grav is better against heavy vehicles and hordes (anything above 15 models, or less depending on the armor of the target), which are the things that the rest of the list has issues dealing with. It might not be the better loadout overall, but it covers the issues with the rest of the army well.

Yeah that's fair. Against heavy vehicles it's better and the initial shots at a large horde are decent. But you get less shots the more dudes you kill so it's not quite as reliable as the butchers as a multi-purpose weapon. Still I think it works with your intended role of providing something to shoot knights with. Looks like a fun list. Let us know how it turns out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:
how did you play cultists? large black legion cultists with Abbadon, fearless 40+40+40 re rolling to hit are a real pain in the ass

I've been toying with the idea of a list with 398 Alpha/Black Legion cultists + Abaddon + Exalted Champion + diabolic strength/prescience Sorcerer. I'm pretty sure it directly counters today's ITC meta if anyone's crazy enough to actually buy that many cultists. Might try simulating the list some time. So far the best thing I've come up with that could deal with it efficiently is 9 dakkafex + gant screen which we almost certainly would not encounter in a knight meta. A guardspam mirror matchup could also theoretically pose a threat. But there's not a lot that will be able match the dakka of almost 1000 autogun shots

For non-ITC scenarios it would pretty much guarantee that you control all objs every turn throughout the course of the game and you would be impossible to table (unless they're running 9 dakkafex). You would also probably wipe out everything T5/3+ and weaker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm wanting to build an army around this core:
(WE)
8 Man Zerker Squad (icon, pfist, chainaxes)
Dark Apostle (and/or exalted champ)
Termite Assault Drill


(Alpha)
Leviathan x2 Butcher
Leviathan x2 Butcher
Leviathan x2 Butcher

And would love suggestions on what else to take. Zerkers are great but pretty much die on the enemies turn, so I don't wantto over invest. I have found that 8 is typically enough to kill what I want dead (especially with stratagems).

But in all my playing these are the units I've fallen in love with most, and nothing else has really appealed to me as an auto include.

I was considering melee hellbrutes (as they benefit from legion traits),or bloodslaughterers.

I need something that can survive holding mid field while the leviathans tear units up.


Should I ally with deamons? Invest in msu csm? Cultist blobs have proven disappointing. But hey, I'm open to any thoughts.

How do I properly support my backfield dakka, and zerker drill squad?

Cultist are OP as hell. Large blobs don't work without Iron Warrior or Abaddon but you could get a few cheap units of 10 for 40 pts each to keep things from touching your big guns. The other cliche-for-good-reason units I can see helping you keep the mid field are a supreme command detachment of 2 Thousand Sons daemon princes + Ahriman. Lots of smite and melee potential plus enough psychic to dominate most opponents during that phase. I also like the idea of infiltrating Nurglings instead of Alpha Legion cultist as mid field screen but haven't had a chance to test them yet. The 5+++ on 3w infiltrating base just seems annoying as hell to deal with, which is perfect for a cheap screening unit. They're like the chaos version of Alaitoc rangers. Less dakka than Alpha Legion cultists but potentially more difficult to remove? MSU CSM are generally outclassed by cultists in every regard. The first rule of competitive 40k these days seems to be "never take tactical marines"

If you want to kill knights bloodletter bombs math very well assuming you deepstrike turn 2 with a banner of blood for an 83% chance to make your charge. Khorne DP's with skullreavers also hit knights very hard in CC but you really have to ensure they die before getting smashed on the backswing. The other caveat is you need to corner the knight against some terrain or box them in with some nurglings so they can't fall back through your bloodletters and shoot them to pieces. But a max squad of bloodletters w/ re-roll support averages around 23 damage to a knight which is not bad for ~220 points.

Firing double butcher or double storm cannon leviathans is really a treat though. Definitely my favorite point and click delete button in 40k so far.

barboggo wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
how did you play cultists? large black legion cultists with Abbadon, fearless 40+40+40 re rolling to hit are a real pain in the ass

I've been toying with the idea of a list with 438 Alpha/Black Legion cultists + Abaddon + Exalted Champion + diabolic strength/prescience Sorcerer. I'm pretty sure it directly counters today's ITC meta if anyone's crazy enough to actually buy that many cultists. Might try simulating the list some time. So far the best thing I've come up with that could deal with it efficiently is 9 dakkafex + gant screen which we almost certainly would not encounter in a knight meta. A guardspam mirror matchup could also theoretically pose a threat. But there's not a lot that will be able match the dakka of almost 1000 autogun shots

For non-ITC scenarios it would pretty much guarantee that you control all objs every turn throughout the course of the game and you would be impossible to table (unless they're running 9 dakkafex). You would also probably wipe out everything T5/3+ and weaker.

What’s Diabolic Strength for? It only affects a single model, so I guess you’re buffing Abaddon for a small deathstar with a really big chaff field? If that’s the game, maybe begin with Warptime to give him a running start, then use Familiar to switch out to DS? Alternatively, switch out a unit of Cultists for a second sorcerer with WT and either DA or DH?

Very interesting extreme Scissors build. Would certainly overpower most Stones.

The Issue I have with that build is it revolves around Abbadon being alive if he gets taken out your basically screwed, which for me is a no go.

Dont get me wrong it would probably be a lot of fun.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
The Issue I have with that build is it revolves around Abbadon being alive if he gets taken out your basically screwed, which for me is a no go.

Dont get me wrong it would probably be a lot of fun.

pretty hard Abbadon dies when screened by 200 cultists, never seen it happens in any matches i watched, played against. As usual model must be played wisely this is not anymore 7th ediition where you can play immortal units with brain turned off. The real problem of that list (at least for my way to play) is boredom, boring move 200+ models.

...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who gave the Imperium a Warp-damned sniper rifle that fires SCUDs

 blackmage wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
The Issue I have with that build is it revolves around Abbadon being alive if he gets taken out your basically screwed, which for me is a no go.

Dont get me wrong it would probably be a lot of fun.

pretty hard Abbadon dies when screened by 200 cultists, never seen it happens in any matches i watched, played against. As usual model must be played wisely this is not anymore 7th ediition where you can play immortal units with brain turned off. The real problem of that list (at least for my way to play) is boredom, boring move 200+ models.

Not saying it would be easy. Just saying it something to worry about, and given the importance of Abby in that setup it should be worried about a lot. There are a decent number of ways to put mortal wounds on perticular models.

 lindsay40k wrote:
...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble

Abaddon takes half damage, has 7 wounds and can be healed by a stratagem. Oathbreaker costs 2CP and has limited use. I'm not sure it's easy to get rid of him.