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 blackmage wrote:
i played lists with 3 IK and 2 helverins and i played often 2 melee knights, they sure are strong, or 1 shooting Ik 1 melee 2 helverins and Magnus or Mortarion, nice threat saturation.

How are the Heliverns? Was looking at a couple to fill up a superheavy detachment with my chaos/Daemons.

 Nym wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble

Abaddon takes half damage, has 7 wounds and can be healed by a stratagem. Oathbreaker costs 2CP and has limited use. I'm not sure it's easy to get rid of him.

Sniper Rifles that cause mortal wounds, and targeted spells which cause mortal wounds are both serious threats.

Sniper rifles are not taken in number sufficient to counter abadon. It is even pretty dubious that a psycher could get within range of him with that level of bodies without then being within charge range next round. And what will that accomplish? They will try to use their single targeted spell per round, possibly fail, possibly get denied by your sorc, deal a couple of wounds which you will then heal with your strat? And what, manage it again next round while being within at best 24 inches of abadon (and most of those targeted spells are more like 12-18)? Naw.

 Nym wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble

Abaddon takes half damage, has 7 wounds and can be healed by a stratagem. Oathbreaker costs 2CP and has limited use. I'm not sure it's easy to get rid of him.

I’d expect an IK to throw further Stratagems on the shot at Abaddon, and you can bet they’re re-rolling to try to get 3W damage off the shot, then it’s D3 MW he cant reduce. So that’s 5W down on your turn, you’ll heal D3, so that’s 2-3W down on your turn. Another solid hit, or two turns of okay ones, and he’s toast. I’d certainly be throwing DA at him to slow this attrition down in such matchups, and perhaps Miasma as well.

Sniper rifles are rare, but if this list ever starts to crop up in the wild (NGL, that would be hilarious), I wouldn’t be surprised to see them start hanging around with IKs. Certainly, the IW version would be dead.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Nym wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble

Abaddon takes half damage, has 7 wounds and can be healed by a stratagem. Oathbreaker costs 2CP and has limited use. I'm not sure it's easy to get rid of him.

I’d expect an IK to throw further Stratagems on the shot at Abaddon, and you can bet they’re re-rolling to try to get 3W damage off the shot, then it’s D3 MW he cant reduce. So that’s 5W down on your turn, you’ll heal D3, so that’s 2-3W down on your turn. Another solid hit, or two turns of okay ones, and he’s toast. I’d certainly be throwing DA at him to slow this attrition down in such matchups, and perhaps Miasma as well.

Sniper rifles are rare, but if this list ever starts to crop up in the wild (NGL, that would be hilarious), I wouldn’t be surprised to see them start hanging around with IKs. Certainly, the IW version would be dead.

Surely if 3x Knights are taking 3 turns of shooting, plus 6CP+ in stratagems, just to kill abbadon... then he's more than made up for his points in the game, hasn't he? Just going by what you're saying here, I haven't done any Knight maths or anything as I don't own any.

If it takes 3 turns to kill him, woohoo, who cares? Your enemy should not have much capacity to run you down based on morale at that point because attrition will be significant. If they can still threaten multiple units with high levels of anti-infantry fire you've not done well. And if they can only threaten one, then you still have the auto-pass strategy to work with.

Actually, abbadon or removal of abbadon is probably not the problem for that list.
Fielding over 400 cultists on a table with terrain will be a problem.
Except when you are allowed to build cultist pyramids.

What do y'all think of this list? Went with advice earlier in the thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/762903.page

What do you think? Too much? I could trade the warpsmith in for a chaos lord. Not sure if rerolling 1s or healing d3 is more important. (I'm leaning towards chaos lord atm).

IRON WITHIN, ALPHA WITHOUT

WRT to IKs killing Abaddon - it’s a single IK, using a stratagem to fire a single weapon at him. One of them Missiles ignores invuls, with a few rerolls from various traits & strats. Be aware it’s out there, if you’ve got an MVP. Best have a backup plan if you need Warptime to shine.

 Nym wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble

Abaddon takes half damage, has 7 wounds and can be healed by a stratagem. Oathbreaker costs 2CP and has limited use. I'm not sure it's easy to get rid of him.

indeed it is not but if you keep play garagehammer you cant figure it , kill Abbadon (maybe you need 3 turns rolling a 6 everytime for damage and you must hit everyturn not counting abbadon can be healed or have FNP) then you got 250 cultists all over the table, scoring tons of points, not counting in the meanwhile you take damage on IK's they are not everlasting, last but not least average IK list have 4-6 shielbreaker missile no more, btw i wont get into it more, then they start say im too much competitive and start bother, i only know i test regularly in ETC and nothing is like seems in forumwarhammer, the only thing i feel to suggest to LIndsay is start to play more against competent opponents with serious lists and less forumwarhammer, no harm intended, now i shut up

Abigail taking only three wounds from each swipe of a Reaper Chainsword is pretty hilarious in my imagination. I'm not sad about D Weapons leaving but in this particular instance it's more immersion breaking than the game already is...

Abby's got the protection of all four dark gods. When both Nurgle and Tzeentch have your back some major durability shenanigans are in play.

 lindsay40k wrote:

barboggo wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

What’s Diabolic Strength for? It only affects a single model

OMG I've been reading Diabolic Strength wrong this whole time. I thought it was the whole unit

Oh well, there goes my dreams of 40 cultists swinging 80 times rerolling hits and wounding Knights on 5s XD.

The list is still good though, since it's more about board denial (everything denial) than damage. With 398 cultists and 2" unit coherency and AL infiltration you should be able to comfortably cover all of the walkable space on the board before T1 and outside of enemy deployment. After sending in a tide of traitors to claim the enemy deployment, your opponent basically shouldn't be able to move anything at all after like T2. There will be no room on the board to place units, period

BTW Abby will never die, I wasn't really even considering using him offensively. Maybe he can fight some stuff for lulz but really he's just going to be sitting in the back with 10 tentacles of conga lining cultists spreading their arms across the battlefield.

The ITC secondaries you take are Recon, Ground Control, and Behind Enemy Lines. Recon is almost guaranteed to max out every turn and 3/4 Ground Control points will dominated by cultists before T1 with the 4th point needing to be wrestled away from your opponent's deployment with your overwhelming majority of obsec models. Behind Enemy Lines can be a little trickier since it either means Abaddon needs to be within 6" of the enemy deployment in order to buff the cultist unit that "wholly within". Or you send your exalted champion in there with 120 cultists of screen and leave him there the whole game. Should be able to max out or almost max out your secondaries every game. You will also get Hold 1 every turn and almost certainly get Hold More every turn. You can probably kill a chaff unit or two to get Kill 1 on most turns.

Your opponent will likely also score lots of secondaries as they will take The Reaper and probably Marked for Death. But you will completely edge him out on points for board control, and after killing some of his anti-infantry his ability to score secondaries and efficiently kill 80 cultists a turn will be severely diminished.

There are not a lot of builds that can reliably remove 80 fearless cultists every turn, especially when several hundred of them will have -1 to hit at any given moment. And practically speaking it's a moot point because no one's spamming anti-infantry when there's knights all over the place in the current competitive meta.

This list is especially funny against knights because once you get enough cultists around them they'll lose the ability to move and they're stuck trying to stomp cultists to death with their 12 stomps a turn. It won't be nearly enough.

I'm really looking forward to trolling my buddies in tabletop simulator with this.

 blackmage wrote:
indeed it is not but if you keep play garagehammer you cant figure it , kill Abbadon (maybe you need 3 turns rolling a 6 everytime for damage and you must hit everyturn not counting abbadon can be healed or have FNP) then you got 250 cultists all over the table, scoring tons of points, not counting in the meanwhile you take damage on IK's they are not everlasting, last but not least average IK list have 4-6 shielbreaker missile no more, btw i wont get into it more, then they start say im too much competitive and start bother, i only know i test regularly in ETC and nothing is like seems in forumwarhammer, the only thing i feel to suggest to LIndsay is start to play more against competent opponents with serious lists and less forumwarhammer, no harm intended, now i shut up

Average castellan/valiant has 2 missiles(since you can't even shoot more than 1 per turn giving 4 is generally waste...Games are often over before you even use that many). With 600 pts per knight where you have 2-3 dominatus as average?

I would say average missile count is actually less than 2 as not every IK list even has one of those big knights.

Then 2 CP and often enough requires either 1 CP(command reroll) or 2 CP(raven house strategem) to ensure one '1' doesn't ruin it. With 3 chance to roll 1 it's pretty darn good chance to roll something bad there and of course vs Abbadon 2 for damage is same as 1.

It's hard to remove 4W characters without halving damage as it is. 5 is very hard. I have done it but it's not something I would rely on. Not sure would I bother firing missiles at Abbaddon myself seeing I would be needing what 4 missiles likely to kill him...(average damage if you hit and wound being 2 so 3 missiles=6 and that's assuming I hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ every time...). Those CP's are short pressed as it is.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually, abbadon or removal of abbadon is probably not the problem for that list.
Fielding over 400 cultists on a table with terrain will be a problem.
Except when you are allowed to build cultist pyramids.

It's doable, easy. I'm actually more worried about the opposite problem of not being able to cover the whole board since movement denial is key to dominating your ITC primaries and secondaries. A unit of 40 cultists can be compressed to basically a 4"x10" block. 80 cultists would therefore be a 8"x10" block. You only need to fit ~5 of those on a 6x4 board (less than 5 sq ft out of the available ~16 sq ft when accounting for enemy deployment). Easy.

None of your characters will ever be exposed to danger because there will always be hundreds of cultists providing CC screen and character protection at any given moment. The best bet your opponent has for killing Abaddon is psychic but you can easily play around that because you can move, while they can't.

It is the epitome of cheese and super unfair because they're not even playing on a terrain board anymore. They're playing on a solid block of fearless bodies.

But it is also tourney legal.

Someone please buy 400 cultists and win a championship for me.

barboggo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually, abbadon or removal of abbadon is probably not the problem for that list.
Fielding over 400 cultists on a table with terrain will be a problem.
Except when you are allowed to build cultist pyramids.

It's doable, easy. I'm actually more worried about the opposite problem of not being able to cover the whole board since movement denial is key to dominating your ITC primaries and secondaries. A unit of 40 cultists can be compressed to basically a 4"x10" block. 80 cultists would therefore be a 8"x10" block. You only need to fit ~5 of those on a 6x4 board (less than 5 sq ft out of the available ~16 sq ft when accounting for enemy deployment). Easy.

None of your characters will ever be exposed to danger because there will always be hundreds of cultists providing CC screen and character protection at any given moment. The best bet your opponent has for killing Abaddon is psychic but you can easily play around that because you can move, while they can't.

It is the epitome of cheese and super unfair because they're not even playing on a terrain board anymore. They're playing on a solid block of fearless bodies.

But it is also tourney legal.

Someone please buy 400 cultists and win a championship for me.

That assumes a) you play on wide side b) there's no terrain to screw you around.

Also no movement trays unless custom made which makes moving them PITA.

For record attachment shows about half that guys that I fielded last week. Took some figuring where to cram everything. And moving around units were bumbing with each other due to terrain. And this with ability to DS squad a turn elsewhere.

Did pretty much lock his army to his DZ which is how(coupled with good luck with maelstrom cards) was how I won. I was basically blown to bits but scored just enough to eek out victory

Now doable but I'm not sure do you really NEED that many cultists to lock up board. I did it fine with half the number of that. Okay orks are slightly different though heavy bolter doesn't care much either way but they are not TWICE as tough.

Photos like that are why I play 40k. That is amazing. The way you won is basically my list's ITC strat. Playing on short side isn't an issue because you can infiltrate up to 200 Alpha Legionaires into the midfield.

The reason for taking the max 398 cultists is to ensure that even armies with good anti-horde will have a hard time killing enough of them before T5.

I think moving them actually isn't QUITE as bad as it seems since most will be standing still every turn anyway. You've already covered the whole board T1 so it's really more about moving the front ones to cover the enemy deployment by T2, then spreading some of them out in the midfield to cover the gap. You're also just rolling bucketloads of one kind of dice really (autoguns) so a dice app + plus lack of real strategizing + your enemy literally can't move on their turn will make the turns go by quicker than it seems.

Deployment though, that will take a little while.

Thanks. Still need to finish bunch of grots and need to paint those movement trays but while I'm not great painter that horde has certain appeal anyway And I'm blessed with having club with decent terrain(this was actually bit sparse and plain terrain. I was setting up last and due to my time issues was hurry setting up models to movement trays so didn't pay much attention to terrain).

Thing is I think even 300 cultists should fill that trick. I still had stuff left at T5 and I was up against primarily anti-inf DA. Albeit not cheesiest so maybe you have a point.

Ah wish I could use dice app but so far nobody has been willing to allow :-/

And yeah deployment took me awhile! Well not really deployment as such but setting up models to movement trays which I started up before opponent was even clear.

tneva82 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
indeed it is not but if you keep play garagehammer you cant figure it , kill Abbadon (maybe you need 3 turns rolling a 6 everytime for damage and you must hit everyturn not counting abbadon can be healed or have FNP) then you got 250 cultists all over the table, scoring tons of points, not counting in the meanwhile you take damage on IK's they are not everlasting, last but not least average IK list have 4-6 shielbreaker missile no more, btw i wont get into it more, then they start say im too much competitive and start bother, i only know i test regularly in ETC and nothing is like seems in forumwarhammer, the only thing i feel to suggest to LIndsay is start to play more against competent opponents with serious lists and less forumwarhammer, no harm intended, now i shut up

Average castellan/valiant has 2 missiles(since you can't even shoot more than 1 per turn giving 4 is generally waste...Games are often over before you even use that many). With 600 pts per knight where you have 2-3 dominatus as average?

I would say average missile count is actually less than 2 as not every IK list even has one of those big knights.

Then 2 CP and often enough requires either 1 CP(command reroll) or 2 CP(raven house strategem) to ensure one '1' doesn't ruin it. With 3 chance to roll 1 it's pretty darn good chance to roll something bad there and of course vs Abbadon 2 for damage is same as 1.

It's hard to remove 4W characters without halving damage as it is. 5 is very hard. I have done it but it's not something I would rely on. Not sure would I bother firing missiles at Abbaddon myself seeing I would be needing what 4 missiles likely to kill him...(average damage if you hit and wound being 2 so 3 missiles=6 and that's assuming I hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ every time...). Those CP's are short pressed as it is.

dont tell it to me i know it but someone here pretend shielbreak missiles kills Abbadon, i said no more than 4-6 as total i meant couple of IK's with missiles or one with 4 missiles, was an example.

 blackmage wrote:
i said no more than 4-6 as total i meant couple of IK's with missiles or one with 4 missiles, was an example.

But not many takes 4 missiles on one knight(since that's seriously bad. You don't generally even get to shoot more than 2...) and 2+ knights is also unusual since those are 600 pts each. I would say average missile count is LESS than 2 actually...

Actually I own 210 cultists, plus 180 zombies. I could try the troll list using zombies as cultists.
The most orrific thing is...to paint them! even using dipping technique and airbrush it takes you a lot of boring time.
They used to sell very large bags of mutant chronicles basic troops and I grabbed a few of them some times ago.

yes i know was an example just to let understand in the worst of case Abbadon and characters like him cant die with shieldbreak missiles.

 blackmage wrote:
yes i know was an example just to let understand in the worst of case Abbadon and characters like him cant die with shieldbreak missiles.

You're totally right, especially if take in consideration that you can easily give him FnP AND you can use Nurgle's stratagem to heal him.

 brugner8 wrote:
Actually I own 210 cultists, plus 180 zombies. I could try the troll list using zombies as cultists.
The most orrific thing is...to paint them! even using dipping technique and airbrush it takes you a lot of boring time.
They used to sell very large bags of mutant chronicles basic troops and I grabbed a few of them some times ago.

Haha I feel your pain. Check all those greenskins. Can you believe I EDGE HIGHLIGHT them? And some parts are 4 stages like red. Khorne red, crimson shade, mephiston red, wazzdakka red.

Grot skin 4 stages(airbrushed green(various shades), biel tan green, warboss green, skarsnik green). I paint grot skin more than I do for orks...

I have been told to be crazy

 brugner8 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
yes i know was an example just to let understand in the worst of case Abbadon and characters like him cant die with shieldbreak missiles.

You're totally right, especially if take in consideration that you can easily give him FnP AND you can use Nurgle's stratagem to heal him.

and also a juicy -1 to be hitted via miasma of pestilence, Abbadon dies only if you play him wrong.

Ah, now I don’t think I said IKs kill Abby, I noted that if he’s - as I assumed, with the DS misunderstanding - playing offensively as a key lynchpin & beatstick with no defensive spells, then seeing out turn three is down to luck.

The Oathbreaker doesn’t need to roll a 6 on its Wounds. It needs to roll a 5 or 6 to inflict 3W, and - since there’s ways for IKs to secure the successful wounding other than Command Reroll - an opponent who wants him dead will use a CRR to have a 44% chance of doing that. After that, it’s D3 MW, which - sans DA - takes us up to a concerning likelihood of taking 5W in the first battle round.

Heal 3W with Nurgle strat - 44% chance of that (probably lower, since whilst they’re making a long shot you’re playing defensively, and rerolling a 2 carries a dangerous risk of leaving him 3W away from death) - and a repeat of that still kills him.

That’s with good luck and heavy CP investment on the part of the IK player, and him failing saves. If Abby doesn’t pass a save at AP-4, then an army *relying on him as a beatstick sans defensive spells* is playing the odds.

Doesn’t need LOS, either. So, if I were fielding Abaddon and saw a Dominus, I’d rather have cover bonuses and defensive spells and not need them.

LIndsay as i told play more REAL warhammer, how do you ever think in a list with 200 cultists Abby get into enemy face, he is there to give aura bonus and eventually countercharge nothing more, and % in a game like wh40k mean nothing, more serious play less talk and you ll discover a whole new world believe me, regards.
PS: Abby will NEVER die in that list, unless you play it very wrong, period.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Ah, now I don’t think I said IKs kill Abby, I noted that if he’s - as I assumed, with the DS misunderstanding - playing offensively as a key lynchpin & beatstick with no defensive spells, then seeing out turn three is down to luck.

The Oathbreaker doesn’t need to roll a 6 on its Wounds. It needs to roll a 5 or 6 to inflict 3W, and - since there’s ways for IKs to secure the successful wounding other than Command Reroll - an opponent who wants him dead will use a CRR to have a 44% chance of doing that. After that, it’s D3 MW, which - sans DA - takes us up to a concerning likelihood of taking 5W in the first battle round.

Where d3 mw comes from? Missile doesn't have it nor oathbreaker. Have i missed some trick?

Waaaaait. I’ve been misreading the weapon profile. That’s on the big knight’s harpoon, not their missiles. There’s our misunderstanding. Yeah, go for it, walk Abby right on up to a Knight army like Zangief and give them one for me. D’oh