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Dactylartha wrote:
Land raider - I'm committed to using one in 1 week 2k pt list. Tips on keeping it moving and shooting? I'm marking it Nurgle for miasma. Also running 3 brutes alongside it.

Please no disparaging trolling on the non-competitive vehicles. It's a casual tourney with a penalized PL cap and no FW.

There really isn't anything you can do. All it takes is any one model to charge it, and suddenly your 300 point model can't shoot. No amount of screening will be cost efficient because of its cost too.

Just use...something else.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Land raider - I'm committed to using one in 1 week 2k pt list. Tips on keeping it moving and shooting? I'm marking it Nurgle for miasma. Also running 3 brutes alongside it.

Please no disparaging trolling on the non-competitive vehicles. It's a casual tourney with a penalized PL cap and no FW.

There really isn't anything you can do. All it takes is any one model to charge it, and suddenly your 300 point model can't shoot. No amount of screening will be cost efficient because of its cost too.

Just use...something else.

While this is technically true, it's a pretty narrow minded view. He is right about the land raider being able to be shut down by being charged though. It needs the steel behemoth rule really.

In the spirit of the question, I'd suggest that the best thing you can do it try and avoid being charged.

So don't drive your tank too near blobs of cheap infantry. Keep them at arms length. Have your raider filled with something that would murder any nearby blobs, such as berserkers.

Keep deep strikers from dropping in and charging you. Screening would be important. Your helbrutes would help with that though, have them in formation around the raider and they'll keep deep strikers 18+ inches away.

I think this is about the best you can do. Though if you have a decent screen up, and you don't drive too close to enemy infantry, and blast away at range until you unload your troops into the enemy... I think it'll do OK.

Though two rhinos can do the same result for less points, which is kinda the problem with land raiders. You do get some strong weaponry though so pick your targets.

Should be fun. Personally I've wanted to play a spartan assault tank. It's what the land raider should be.

Thanks for both replies. The dedicated screen of brutes is a good reminder (i get excited too often and rush them in). The raider will be carrying berzerkers alongside a rhino of CSM. DP, 2 sorcerers, drake, cultists is the rest of the list. Super simple. The meta here is armor and AP, not hordes. It'll be my first time using the raider outside my living room lol.

I would loooooove a Spartan, eventually.

Dakka really needs to add the ability to search a specific thread. The search tool only being able to narrow do to a particular forum is not very helpful.

I say this because i'm sure this question has been asked before in this thread, but there's no way to know unless I read through every page. And aint nobody got time fo' that.


Anyway -

Daemonic Locus seems to require a whole detachment being mono-god. Much like stratagems requiring whole detachments being from the same faction. Fine, makes sense.

But stratagems specifically say that the Auxillary detachments don't qualify for unlocking stratagems. Daemonic locus doesn't mention this.

So... does that mean I can spend 1CP on an Aux detachment with a Khorne Herald in it, which then gives that herald the locus of rage?


Asking because, despite them not being very good, I really want a flying bodyguard for my Princes, and so it will either be Raptors or Talons.

Raptors with the Icon can get their charge up to 50%, but they're still terrible in melee anyway so they're better off (at least I think this is true) with 3 plasma guns and dropping in to rapid fire some elite infantry with a Lord.

Warp Talons need the Locus of Rage to get the charge reroll, and they also get +1 strength out of it, so not... as terrible as they are without it.


Alternative is to forget deepstriking, and just have the Talons start on the table with the prince and go for a big leap towards the enemy.

Yes they get the Locus you just can't use strats from the codex if that's your only CD detachment

Agree on talon handicap not being able to take an icon. Had some random fun with them near a Tzeentch DP for that locus but they need that Khorne reroll.

Dactylartha wrote:
Yes they get the Locus you just can't use strats from the codex if that's your only CD detachment

Agree on talon handicap not being able to take an icon. Had some random fun with them near a Tzeentch DP for that locus but they need that Khorne reroll.

Seriously tempted to just run them on the table. Ignore their deepstrike ability (or maybe infiltrate them with Alpha legion to get them in a good location), and then have them grab some buffs from a Prince and Herald. I think they'd make an ok distraction carnifex and bodyguard unit. Though I still think lightning claws are overcosted. If a pair of claws gave D3 extra attacks then they'd be more in the right ball park.

I find they're just as squishy as raptors and tac marines unless you can trap a model from falling back.

Raptors disappoint me so much, but talons less so. I want to love them but they're too imprecise. I joined 40k at the end of 7th and had more raptors break their ankles on terrain than get killed by enemy. Now, they die as soon as they enter unless I can gimmick them to stay in melee, away from dreadnoughts and slam captains, for more than a turn.

I also had a heldrake eat up 4 of my talons in one counterattack once, that's a fun memory.

Dactylartha wrote:
I find they're just as squishy as raptors and tac marines unless you can trap a model from falling back.

Raptors disappoint me so much, but talons less so. I want to love them but they're too imprecise. I joined 40k at the end of 7th and had more raptors break their ankles on terrain than get killed by enemy. Now, they die as soon as they enter unless I can gimmick them to stay in melee, away from dreadnoughts and slam captains, for more than a turn.

I also had a heldrake eat up 4 of my talons in one counterattack once, that's a fun memory.

I'm not sure if you're saying Raptors or Talons are worse, as you seem to go back and forth between them...

I just did some mathhammer though, and it turns out that a 5-man Plasma Raptor squad will out-damage a 5-man Warp Talon squad against all enemy types... And the Raptors can do most of their damage without risking getting into melee combat.

The only way Talons will outperform the Raptors, is if the Talons get into melee with their full unit, and the Raptors only shoot from 24" away (and so can't rapid-fire). Even then, the Talons are only slightly better, and the Raptors get their -1 from Alpha Legion.

Talons are better if you get them into melee with +1S and reroll 1's to hit, and the Raptors are -only- shooting plasma guns and not charging too. But it's not much.

The Raptors squad even costs the same (135). I really hope the new Chapter Approved this year does something good for both units.

Phone posting with toddler in the other arm. Sorry.

I don't use raptors well. Plas pistol and meltas. And I instinctively charge them in to fight to protect them, but they fail charges or kill models in charge range or just get killed when their target falls back on his turn.

Warp talons do much more for me but I still haven't found out how to make them work well. They are best, to me, for tagging through overwatch and trapping models.

I'm sure I'd do better with 3 plas raptors but atm i modeled them with box bits and i make a lot of noob mistakes. They don't fill a niche for me.

Part of the issue is that CSM units aren't treated like the Vets they should be. That's why I'm for removing the base Chaos Space Marine squad and replacing them with 15 point Chosen as the basic choice, and then we start off from there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Part of the issue is that CSM units aren't treated like the Vets they should be. That's why I'm for removing the base Chaos Space Marine squad and replacing them with 15 point Chosen as the basic choice, and then we start off from there.

^This. Been saying the same for years. The dark vengence chosen models should be the styling of the base standard marines moving forward.

We also need marks for that unit (this unit alone gets this choice)

Nurgle: +1 Toughness
Khorne: +1 Strength and +1 Attack when charging
Slaanesh: Always Fight First
Tzeentch: +1 Invul (Max 3++) or a 5+ if none.
Undivided: Only ever lose 1 model to failed morale test

 buddha wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Part of the issue is that CSM units aren't treated like the Vets they should be. That's why I'm for removing the base Chaos Space Marine squad and replacing them with 15 point Chosen as the basic choice, and then we start off from there.

^This. Been saying the same for years. The dark vengence chosen models should be the styling of the base standard marines moving forward.

We also need marks for that unit (this unit alone gets this choice)

Nurgle: +1 Toughness
Khorne: +1 Strength and +1 Attack when charging
Slaanesh: Always Fight First
Tzeentch: +1 Invul (Max 3++) or a 5+ if none.
Undivided: Only ever lose 1 model to failed morale test

Marks doing anything rules-wise is a lost cause, BUT that's why I'm for separation of Emperors Children and World Eaters (which has been hinted at). Marks are fine to just be keywords for the Legions not entirely dedicated to one Chaos God. I'm wanting a rework on the Cult Marines too though so...

Dactylartha wrote:
Land raider - I'm committed to using one in 1 week 2k pt list. Tips on keeping it moving and shooting? I'm marking it Nurgle for miasma. Also running 3 brutes alongside it.

Please no disparaging trolling on the non-competitive vehicles. It's a casual tourney with a penalized PL cap and no FW.

While a land raider is never ever efficient. If you are committed to run one, I might suggest trying out world eaters and running a lord of skulls and running Kharn beside the land raider. So Kharn is protected on each side by a big vehicle, and he gives reroll to hit to both the Lord of skulls and the Land raider. And the combined shooting from a LOS and a LR is not a small thing. Then, at the same time, you can stuff the Land Raider with full of scary berserkers. World eaters berserkers are really really scary in close combat.

Its a lot of points though. In any case, the LOS can serve as a huge distraction so that they might not focus on your land raider so much. Its still not the most efficient in terms of points, but there are some synergies to this. If you are pressed for points, I suppose running a simple lord over Kharn is another way. But if you are running a LR anyway, might as well use its transport capability for something. You can do this cheaper by running a renegade knight instead of a LOS but less synergy.

Thanks. I know it's not efficient or top tier, and I'm taking a score penalty to bring it, but i want to. I lose nothing for losing and honestly the opponents here don't really play melee armies. Also I'm limited by my inventory - I don't have a LoW or Kharn or oblits (yet) and I'm bringing 3 psykers, and the tourney series only allows battalion, patrol, and auxiliary support detachments with no FW. It's a pretty narrow scope so I'm seeing how the raider does against other armor. With it and one of the dreads I'll have 6 lascannons which is a lot for me.

AL trait helps my brutes out a tonne for staying alive, I'm hoping miasma helps my raider avoid a handful of the shots coming at it. I really appreciate the guy reminding me to focus on using them as a mobile screen for the raider.

And for some hilarious reason they always think my helldrake is some scary fire raptor i just don't get it.

Going by raw stats yes raptors can out damage...But the ability to have a 5++ invuln, benefit from daemon loci and auras, and ignore overwatch is a LOT of non-direct buffs. Heck, use Talons against the right army (tau, IG, etc.) And watch your opponent weep as you totally ignore their overwatch.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Going by raw stats yes raptors can out damage...But the ability to have a 5++ invuln, benefit from daemon loci and auras, and ignore overwatch is a LOT of non-direct buffs. Heck, use Talons against the right army (tau, IG, etc.) And watch your opponent weep as you totally ignore their overwatch.

Unfortunately you only 'totally ignore' their overwatch on the turn you deepstrike in. And on that turn you'll only make your charge 1 game in every 4.

So for 3 games out of 4, watch as your Talons run towards the enemy, stop in the middle of nowhere, and get blasted off the board by rapid fire lasguns lol.

It’s worth checking our sums on this. The option for Warp Talons to gain reroll charges off Karanak or such should be incorporated into things. After all, it *is* an *excellent* gimmick *when it works*. (I’d welcome anyone picking errors in this, it’d not be my first time calculating wrong in this thread )

Just dropping and charging has a 10/36 = 27.78% chance of success.

Charging and rerolling a failed charge has a 10/36 + (26/36 x 10/36) = 47.84% chance of success.

Charging and using a command re-roll on the lower roll, where it could produce a total with the higher roll that makes it successful, has a (10/36) + (4/36 x 2/3) + (6/36 x 1/2) + (7/36 x 1/3) + (5/36 x 1/6) = 52.31% chance of success (assuming you spend a CP on the longer shots, like trying to turn 3-3 into 3-6).

Charging, and using a command re-roll on the lower roll, unless you’ve got a better chance of success by re-rolling both dice and doing that instead, has a (10/36) + (4/36 x 2/3) + (6/36 x 1/2) + (7/36 x 1/3) + (9/36 x 10/36) = 56.94% chance of success.

Doing that with two units = 81.46% chance of success (assuming you can use a CRR on each of them like in narrative games, in real terms you’ll have situations where the first unit CRRs a 6-1 and then the second unit can’t CRR a 6-2 and the full charge reroll comes up as a fail).

So. That’s about an eighty percent chance of two units of Warp Talons making a charge, and shutting down the overwatch of some Aggressors, or an Acid Spray T-fex, or a flame Knight, or a Spartan carrying precious cargo.

It’s still prohibitively expensive for a general just-in-case trap card. Buuuuut if you’re in a huge game where this Stone is likely to find at least one Scissors, or you’re in an event where you can bring a sideboard, or you know the list you’re likely to face has got Scissors, that’s not *terrible* odds. I mean, it’s better than your own charger getting crippled by overwatch, right?

Also, if you can land the unit on an elevated position, or in a position to declare a charge on such a position with space for some of them to fit up there, then “place the models over 9” away” in the movement phase can equal a guaranteed head stomp or dragon punch in the charge phase, as the big FAQ specifically says that units with FLY measure the diagonal distance when checking if they’re allowed to declare a charge but all vertical movement in the execution of the charge is free. Night Lords, take note, and get some Batman takedowns in the bag

 lindsay40k wrote:
It’s worth checking our sums on this. The option for Warp Talons to gain reroll charges off Karanak or such should be incorporated into things. After all, it *is* an *excellent* gimmick *when it works*. (I’d welcome anyone picking errors in this, it’d not be my first time calculating wrong in this thread )

Just dropping and charging has a 10/36 = 27.78% chance of success.

Charging and rerolling a failed charge has a 10/36 + (26/36 x 10/36) = 47.84% chance of success.

Charging and using a command re-roll on the lower roll, where it could produce a total with the higher roll that makes it successful, has a (10/36) + (4/36 x 2/3) + (6/36 x 1/2) + (7/36 x 1/3) + (5/36 x 1/6) = 52.31% chance of success (assuming you spend a CP on the longer shots, like trying to turn 3-3 into 3-6).

Charging, and using a command re-roll on the lower roll, unless you’ve got a better chance of success by re-rolling both dice and doing that instead, has a (10/36) + (4/36 x 2/3) + (6/36 x 1/2) + (7/36 x 1/3) + (9/36 x 10/36) = 56.94% chance of success.

Doing that with two units = 81.46% chance of success (assuming you can use a CRR on each of them like in narrative games, in real terms you’ll have situations where the first unit CRRs a 6-1 and then the second unit can’t CRR a 6-2 and the full charge reroll comes up as a fail).

So. That’s about an eighty percent chance of two units of Warp Talons making a charge, and shutting down the overwatch of some Aggressors, or an Acid Spray T-fex, or a flame Knight, or a Spartan carrying precious cargo.

It’s still prohibitively expensive for a general just-in-case trap card. Buuuuut if you’re in a huge game where this Stone is likely to find at least one Scissors, or you’re in an event where you can bring a sideboard, or you know the list you’re likely to face has got Scissors, that’s not *terrible* odds. I mean, it’s better than your own charger getting crippled by overwatch, right?

Also, if you can land the unit on an elevated position, or in a position to declare a charge on such a position with space for some of them to fit up there, then “place the models over 9” away” in the movement phase can equal a guaranteed head stomp or dragon punch in the charge phase, as the big FAQ specifically says that units with FLY measure the diagonal distance when checking if they’re allowed to declare a charge but all vertical movement in the execution of the charge is free. Night Lords, take note, and get some Batman takedowns in the bag

I do like the thinking. Though I notice that the difference between the Khorne daemon reroll, and the command reroll, is very minor. Which means that you would have to know that the Khorne detachment was worth it's massive points cost, for it to be worth taking over just having a spare CP.

For example, I do have a definite Khorne HQ, maybe 2, in my list. However, the rest of the detachment is Nurglings and Flamers. Meaning no Locus. I'd have to take another Khorne HQ in an AUX detachment, in order to get a locus on that one HQ. Which is doable, but I'd then pretty much need to have at least 2 units of Talons to make the investment worthwhile, at which point I've spend ~350 points on this little bomb. Of which, if only one unit makes it into combat, that's... 10 S4 AP-2 attacks.

Tricky balance.


On another note, which may get lost in this big wall of text, but I'm looking for some ideas for models which could be turned into assassin/stealth style of models. Going to have some sneaky sneaks in my alpha legion list. True, we have no actual rules for assassins (and basically only the Jump Pack Lord is capable of it), but I can still make them look cool.

Thing about the Khorne Daemon Detachment Bonus Locus is that it scales - you can take a couple of WT units and have them (and maybe something else, like a Daemon engine or two) all benefit from the rerolls.

As for stealthy creepers... hmm. Kitbashed Sniper scouts? Tempestus Scions?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Thing about the Khorne Daemon Detachment Bonus Locus is that it scales - you can take a couple of WT units and have them (and maybe something else, like a Daemon engine or two) all benefit from the rerolls.

As for stealthy creepers... hmm. Kitbashed Sniper scouts? Tempestus Scions?

For cultist sized models it's easy enough. Even for raptors/talons (depending on which I end up choosing) it's not so hard.

I need a lord and a daemon-prince sized model though, which is a little trickier!

Makes me think is it worth taking a spare empty rhino alongside your rhino full of berserkers etc as a distraction and run that into your overwatching menace. Probably more chance of pulling that off than warp talons and although it doesn't ignore overwatch it can probably tank most overwatch you'd come up against no?
Incidentally, what's probably the worst overwatch you can come up against? Deathwatch frag cannons? How many can one unit carry?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is there a unit that can consistently remove a full health rhino on overwatch?

Abaddon303 wrote:
Makes me think is it worth taking a spare empty rhino

Bingo. If there is at least one thing Rhinos can do this edition it's take Overwatch if you're that chicken. I personally just take my chance but other people don't like doing that. Move two or three up as a wall and launch the Smoke. Then move again and charge as necessary.

A Knight Valiant, maybe?

Abaddon303 wrote:
Makes me think is it worth taking a spare empty rhino alongside your rhino full of berserkers etc as a distraction and run that into your overwatching menace. Probably more chance of pulling that off than warp talons and although it doesn't ignore overwatch it can probably tank most overwatch you'd come up against no?
Incidentally, what's probably the worst overwatch you can come up against? Deathwatch frag cannons? How many can one unit carry?

An Azrael gunline can put out some horrific overwatch with all the rerolling hits on Hellblasters, but the really scary overwatch comes from Tau, particularly if they are T'au sept (hitting on 5's with a feth-ton of shots). Dominus Knights are daunting prospects for charging, too.

Is there a unit that can consistently remove a full health rhino on overwatch?

A Knight Castellan might, if it gets a hit or two with the Volcano lance.

Not only has a Spartan with Captain & Lieutenant got a good chance of killing a Rhino with overwatch, it can still fire when it’s in melee

Speaking of big units, Khorne Lord of Skulls, anyone have any experience? It's melee profile seems actually solid, and in a world of primarchs I'm hoping to get something big of my own (while remaining khorne).

weaver9 wrote:
Speaking of big units, Khorne Lord of Skulls, anyone have any experience? It's melee profile seems actually solid, and in a world of primarchs I'm hoping to get something big of my own (while remaining khorne).

Kytan Ravager and Brass Scorpion are both Khorne Daemons. Worth a look.

Does Magnus + LoC work fine together? 2 x 3++

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Does Magnus + LoC work fine together? 2 x 3++

Not a bad threat overload approach, buuuut if you come up against Knights you’ll possibly be eating a shieldbreaker missile every turn

I know it's something that's pretty much only an idea for the Imperium (due to their over-abundance of character options), but I have been hit by an idea I'd be curious about looking into...

Is it possible to run a character-heavy (or even character-only) CSM/Daemons army list?

Imperials can do it because of Assassins and Inquisitors and their normal HQ options all giving a lot of options for anti-horde and anti-tank. CSM and Daemons... well anti-tank is easy, anti-horde might be a lot harder.

Just, y'know... a thought exercise.