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We do have modest anti-horde psychic powers. Like, kill a sixth of a unit stuff.

Death Guard buff guys?

 lindsay40k wrote:
We do have modest anti-horde psychic powers. Like, kill a sixth of a unit stuff.

Death Guard buff guys?

Problem is that a lot of the time the 'horde' are multiple MSU, so doing 1/6 of a 10 man unit isn't great. Though if the enemy uses full size squads it could be better, but they usually only run those if they have something like tide of traitors, which makes the damage a waste.

Yeh, I think it would have to be death guard. The one with the 2D6 flamethrower would be pretty deadly. It's a shame that death guard relies on rhinos so much. I've never been a fan of metal bawkses, always prefer having real units on the table (infiltrate/deepstrike/jetpacks/bikes).

Might have to think on it though. If I can come up with a DG detachment that can take the place of my Daemons one.

For anti-horde tzaangors and pinks should be okay

I may have come up with a detachment that works... but there's a couple ways of doing it (for me, that is).

Instead of taking a DG detachment (which would require 3 units of cultists or marines to make up a battallion, which I need for the 5cp), I can take a Nurgle detachment.

DG Daemon Prince with PlagueSpewer
Poxbringer

Foul Blightspawn
Foul Blightspawn
Foul Blightspawn

7 Plague Marines + Rhino
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings


7 Marines and 3 Blightspawn in a Rhino. This obviously goes along with an alpha legion detachment for other threats and at least one more Rhino I expect.

Thing is, this means losing access to DG stratagems, and the DG legion trait. Not sure if this is a big deal or not, as i'd still have CSM stratagems from the Alpha Legion detachment.

Still a draft though. There is also an option of taking the Nurglings in a pure Daemons detachment, and just taking the Blightspawn in a Vanguard detachment. Might be the better idea.

A third character would open up a DG Vanguard

 lindsay40k wrote:
A third character would open up a DG Vanguard

I'd still need 2 characters for a Nurgling battallion... but I may have come up with something. Ends up with a lot of eggs in one basket but still.




If I -include- the 7 Plagues as a bodyguard in the Rhino, it adds another 185 points to that egg basket... not sure if it's worth it. BUT if I do include those, then this all adds up to 1540 points.

Which gives mes almost 500 points to add things to my Alpha Legion detachment.

Not sure... this might be a list I keep.

Edit: Or, I drop the plagues, and use those points on other threats. I think 3D6 autohits, at strength 2D6, -3, D3, is a pretty nasty threat all on its own. Which leaves me 650 points for Alpha Legion.

Edit 2: Added an Obliterator squad to the AL list. Brings me up to 1549 points.

Edit 3: Hmm. Mathhammer again. That DG unit of a rhino and 3 blight spawn would be about 300 points. But if I compare 2x blightspawn vs 5x tzeentch flamers (adds up to about 150 PST each), the flamers are roughly equal vs vehicles and much much better vs hordes. Seems the blightspawn isn’t worth the investment as a replacement.

More mathhammer, in case anyone was interested. As I also realised that I had forgotten the Grenades the Blightspawns carry. But turns out they don't make much difference.

So for 2x Blightspawn vs 5x Flamers, and having both the blightspawn throwing their special 1-shot deaths heads -

Flamer vs GEQ = 11.3 dead
Blightspawn vs GEQ = 5.1 dead

Flamer vs MEQ = 5.1 dead
Blightspawn vs MEQ = 2 dead

Flamer vs VEQ = 3.4 Damage
Blightspawn vs VEQ = 3.4 Damage


So even against their prime target, the Blightspawn only breaks even. And to get to their prime target, they require an additional 85pts in Rhino, where the Flamers can deepstrike (or just fly 12" a turn). So I could add 2 more Flamers to the unit to really match points. Or add a single Exalted Flamer.

So... I might be missing something. I mean, the Blightspawns will be fairly tough to kill with their FnP and T5/W4. But if the Rhino gets popped they're walking a slow 5".

I think that the Blightspawn might be more of a replacement for Obliterators (as far as damage/targets goes).

What do folks think of the hellforged Deredeo dreads?

I think they are pretty solid upon taking another glance at them. I mean they cost a bit more then helverin but with more gun and better BS and invulvs to boot. Plus the better stat line. I have been liking the butcher canon array and greater havoc launcher load out. They have the added boost of turning on the Heliptical targeting array when you face dark eldar. Basically your still hitting venoms and fliers on 2's rerolling 1's near a lord.

I was planning on fielding 3 helverins and 3 armigers in a list but then realized I may just be better off running 3 defilers and 3 of those deredeos. It's slightly more expensive but it has more wounds and durability and quite a bit more punch. I plan on running alpha legion and a dark apsotle and exalted champion for the defilers. in fact here is my list:

Spearhead (alpha legion)
-chaos lord
-3x Defilers with twin HB and scourge
-3x Deredeos with twin HB, butcher array, greater HL
Battalion (alpha legion)
-Dark Apostle
-Exalted Champion
-3x10 cultists
-9 Berserkers with power fist
-9 Berserkers with power fist
Auxillary Detachment
-7Nurgling bases

2K

Obviously the Nurglings deploy first in a picket to save space for the forward operatives (Berserkers and DA EC) While the CL hangs back with the Deredeos and cultists are there to screen and eat table space between the back field and the infiltrators, can also infiltrate them where beneficial. Defilers move and advance first turn. Haven't tested the list yet, I am i nthe middle of building a khorne themed army and I just built 6 mini lord of skull conversions to represent all the walkers. Waiting on some final bits. I think it will work well, still gets crushed to Imperial soup with a Castellan but I really see no point in building verse that lol.

Anyway, thoughts and discussion welcome, off to work for now. Thanks!

if you want some reliable firepower use 30 pink horrors and an herald.

I'm starting to think what's the point in close combat? Feels like I can wreck some things in the initial combat but you leave yourself so vulnerable I don't really see the advantage.
Why is it not better to just blast stuff from distance?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really want to build a close combat CSM list but it just seems so inefficient.
Don't get me wrong it will be fun, but I can't see it being effective

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'm starting to think what's the point in close combat? Feels like I can wreck some things in the initial combat but you leave yourself so vulnerable I don't really see the advantage.
Why is it not better to just blast stuff from distance?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really want to build a close combat CSM list but it just seems so inefficient.
Don't get me wrong it will be fun, but I can't see it being effective

In what way are you saying they're vulnerable?

Theyre more vulnerable to being counter-attacked yes, but then so is the enemy you're fighting. Thats why you use your good melee guys against their bad melee guys (ideally, anyway).

I mean, Berzerkers can do 6 S4 attacks per person in melee. You'd need to be using... I mean even Combi-Bolters only get to 4 attacks, and to get 10 combi-bolters in a unit you'd need to be taking terminators.

Also if they're in combat they're safer than if they're out in the open, as the enemy can't shoot them. Unless they choose to fall back their unit, but then that unit gives up all it's shooting and melee for a turn, which might be worth it by itself.

Saying all that though, this edition does seem to lean more towards shooting. But I think melee is still possible of doing work.

Few notes from a battle I just had:

Brought the following units:
Greater Brass Scorprion of Khorne
Bezerkers in a Rhino with Exalted Champ
Nurglings
Bloodmaster with Crimson Crown
Chaos decimators with x2 soulburners

--

Just wanted to call out the Brass Scorpion was shockingly useful. Not very points efficient but an amazing distraction. Killed Mortarion in close combat.

Decimators were a risky pick, but super worth it. After some positioning, all of them got to shoot Magnus and burst him from full down to 7 wounds.

Nurglings are not csm, but the best defensive unit I've encountered yet.

Beserkers are, pound for pound my favorite cc unit. Especially with an exalted champ/dark apostle. There is no skull to big.

I'm going to be building out a pure khorne list-- and plans on trying Khorne Lord of Skulls instead of a Brass scorpion. Will let people know how it goes.

Always nice to see a report of the Brass Scorpion. Such a cool model.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Question for the audience -

Some of you may remember that I had been adding a Hellforged Predator with Flamestorm Cannon (+ 2x Heavy Flamers) to my list, because I wanted a big nasty monster tank with giant flamers for... well, because it's cool.

However I have now considered instead adding a small outrider detachment from Renegades, with a couple cheapo options and (of course) a Hellhound.

The Predator comes out to 185 points. This gives 4D6 S5 flamer hits at 8" range, with half of them being Damage 2 instead of 1. Isn't bad, but is short ranged. Comes with some melee combat power though, and an occasional heal.

The Hellhound + Heavy Flamer is 120 points, and comes with 2D6 S6 flamer attacks at 16", and 1D6 S5 at 8". So mostly you'd stay at 16" range, but you have some more flames against anyone wanting to charge it. No melee ability to speak of, but explodes very easily which might be nice.

They seem fairly comparable, with the Predator being maybe better because of the extra abilities... but it's also 50% more expensive. A cheap outrider with a Commander, Hellhound and 2x Spawn, is 220 points, and that doesn't seem too bad. Especially as I could go with 2x Hellhounds, or add a couple scout sentinels.


So yeh, just wondered on thoughts. The Flamestorm Predator seems not to get much love on the blood angel pages, but the Hellhound seems to be well-liked.

Weaver - how did you like the Crimson Crown?

Niru - Zerkers are S5 default, 6 with chainaxe.

weaver9 wrote:
Few notes from a battle I just had:

Brought the following units:
Greater Brass Scorprion of Khorne
Bezerkers in a Rhino with Exalted Champ
Nurglings
Bloodmaster with Crimson Crown
Chaos decimators with x2 soulburners

--

Just wanted to call out the Brass Scorpion was shockingly useful. Not very points efficient but an amazing distraction. Killed Mortarion in close combat.

Decimators were a risky pick, but super worth it. After some positioning, all of them got to shoot Magnus and burst him from full down to 7 wounds.

Nurglings are not csm, but the best defensive unit I've encountered yet.

Beserkers are, pound for pound my favorite cc unit. Especially with an exalted champ/dark apostle. There is no skull to big.

I'm going to be building out a pure khorne list-- and plans on trying Khorne Lord of Skulls instead of a Brass scorpion. Will let people know how it goes.

Thanks, this was what I was interested. I also have a Khorne lord of skulls, which is why I built the 6 mini lord of skulls to use as counts as. I also am using blood warriors to convert berserkers. I have two unbuilt decimators I was planning on giving the soul burner petard but hadn't gotten around to it since it is so expensive for its durability, good to hear it does work if you position it right.

Still hoping for some feedback in regard to the Helforged Deredeo dread. The greater havoc launcher seems very useful in the current meta.

Dactylartha wrote:
Weaver - how did you like the Crimson Crown?

Niru - Zerkers are S5 default, 6 with chainaxe.

Which just makes my point even stronger lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Still hoping for some feedback in regard to the Helforged Deredeo dread. The greater havoc launcher seems very useful in the current meta.

As far as I'm aware, all of the Dreads are meant to be pretty good.

Leviathan is just an amazing all-rounder, and tough to kill. Big and nasty and expensive.

Deredeo is a middle-ground option, but based on shooty builds only. If you need shooty+melee, go for leviathan or contemptor. If you're happy with just shooty then Deredeo is good.

Contemptor is the cheap option. Not that it's that cheap, but it's cheap-er.

All of them are good options though. If you have the points the Leviathan is probably the best, as you can fit two butcher arrays on one platform. The deredeo can only take one.

As always its a price/performance equation. But I think ALL of these are worth their points costs right now, so it just depends on how many points you have spare in your list.

To echo some of what Niru said:

I think it's worth it to have a balance of ranged threats vs close combat. When it comes to both csm have some great options.

Let me run through an example with bezerkers:


I have done similar averages with the FW dreadnoughts. My conclusions are leviathans are statistically best with twin butcher canon arrays, and chaos decimators best with twin soulburners.

That being said the decimators are immensely vulnerable to long and mid range shooting armies (guard, tau, even tyranids) 3 of them with soulburners can dish out almost enough mortal wounds to kill a primarch in 1 turn. But they are super vulnerable. Leviathans would be my go to for allcomers lists, as they are amazingly tough units, and have very high damage output.

My advice is if you're going to take decimators, run some major threat saturation.

I just find most the time with cc I'm trading units. My berserkers will tear through a unit, then they're left exposed. If there is anything left it's so depleted the opponent will happily fall back so they can shoot them.
I'm struggling to get a balance of declaring a big enough unit/multiple units but then not losing half of my berserkers to overwatch. I just find it's so situational. It is fun though...

Something’s just occurred to me re my mathhammer on two units of Warp Talons having like 80% odds on one of them charging from DS with a Locus of Rage and a re-roll

Same applies to two units of 10 Berzerkers in a KAC

If either connects and has a fistchamp, it’s six S10 punches. Food for thought

This isn't really tactics, but yesterday I charged a Mortarian with a 20 man squad of Berzerkers (from a Mastodon) and 100-0'd him.

It took about 8 minutes to roll.

Here's another one to add to my "which would you choose" questions:


5x Chosen, 5x Plasma Guns, Rhino = 230 points

2x Squads of 5 Renegades Marauders (2 Plasma Guns, 2 Shotguns, Chief with Plasma Pistol and Powerfist), Chimera = 252 points.


Same number of plasma shots at rapid fire range, but marauders have 1 less shots at 24" because of the pistols. But the marauders have 4 powerfist attacks too, and 4 shotguns (for whatever they're worth). Also they have some ablative wounds, where the chosen would start losing plasma guns immediately.

Seriously considering a Renegades vanguard, as I'm reading Legion and I'm seeing how using elite 'normal' human operatives is a pretty fluffy option. (Basically how people normally use Cultists for Alpha, but more so).

Abaddon303 wrote:
I just find most the time with cc I'm trading units. My berserkers will tear through a unit, then they're left exposed. If there is anything left it's so depleted the opponent will happily fall back so they can shoot them.
I'm struggling to get a balance of declaring a big enough unit/multiple units but then not losing half of my berserkers to overwatch. I just find it's so situational. It is fun though...

I run into that problem a lot too. I've started saving my berzerkers until turn 3ish to start fighting because of it, and I face a lot of reserve threats that my berzerkers are well equipped to handle.

When I do throw my berzerkers forward, I try to tag as many things as possible on the same turn. Turn 2 my drake, prince, 2 rhinos (if alive), 1-3 brutes, and maybe some cultists can usually get in on the action if i haven't been boxed in by shooting or flanks.

I guess regardless of the attacking ability of berserkers, they are at the end of the day just space marines and therefore they die quickly when exposed. It's so situational to try to end your turn with them still in combat and safe from being eviscerated.
I think I might start taking them in units of 5. Anything more seems generally like overkill, I'm starting to think it might actually be beneficial to leave a couple of models alive in the unit you charge

Abaddon303 wrote:
I guess regardless of the attacking ability of berserkers, they are at the end of the day just space marines and therefore they die quickly when exposed. It's so situational to try to end your turn with them still in combat and safe from being eviscerated.
I think I might start taking them in units of 5. Anything more seems generally like overkill, I'm starting to think it might actually be beneficial to leave a couple of models alive in the unit you charge

It's hard to leave much alive when you use Khorne Berzerkers. The only way to keep a unit like that alive is "wrap tricks" but those don't work unless the enemy unit has models in position for you to trap on 3 sides (believe me, those will be the first ones pulled).

Easiest way to envelope with zerks is holding them back. Only get one or two actually making attacks, then consolidate around them. Buuut then you lose quite a few to return blows.

How many CPs do people find is a good number to have at 2000?

Niiru wrote:
How many CPs do people find is a good number to have at 2000?

10+ is what I feel like the minimum is. 1 battalion plus a supreme command or spearhead and then the battle forged bonus. I usually go for more than that though, at least 2 battalions, because I feel chaos is very dependent on stratagems so I aim for 15+.

Niiru wrote:
How many CPs do people find is a good number to have at 2000?

Primortus is right, aim for 10+. My current Khorne Daemonkin force has 18CP (but that is quickly reduced to 8CP after I put all of my Daemons in DS), other lists I run are around 13+CP; a min battalion is too easy to fit into a Chaos army for anyone to be running less than 10CP.

Primortus wrote:

Niiru wrote:
How many CPs do people find is a good number to have at 2000?

10+ is what I feel like the minimum is. 1 battalion plus a supreme command or spearhead and then the battle forged bonus. I usually go for more than that though, at least 2 battalions, because I feel chaos is very dependent on stratagems so I aim for 15+.

You say 10+, but then say "battallion plus supreme command plus battleforged"... which only adds up to 9?

Only way I get above 10 is to take 2 battallions (which is usually most of my points) getting me to 13 with battleforged.

How are you getting 15+? That's 2x battallion plus at least 2 more of the supreme command or outrider type ones, and that only -just- gets you to 15?

Unless there's been another update to the CP bonuses that I missed. I only remember the ones for battallion and brigade being increased.

2K points and you can’t afford six minimum units of Cultists, Brimstones, or Nurglings? Fewer, if you’re going with a horde or two?