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 vaklor4 wrote:
Im facing Sisters for the first time in a big game using my Khorne army. What are some good units to bring to give me an edge? I dont know SoB that well, and im not sure if Zerker Party buses and Letter Bombs are as viable on them.

They presumably bring lots of flames, so I would say be prepared to soak up overwatch some how (charge with your rhinos first, then your bezerkers). But their defensive stats are aren't anything crazy. Drive up and get them skills

Yeah, avoid charging from within flame range if you can help it, measure distances during movement phase and use IoW & LoR & CRR to execute charges from 8.1” away from flamers

You’re actually in a somewhat less vulnerable position than other gods as you’re not going to be relying on Warptime, Sisters are a pretty hard counter to psychic acrobatics as 2CP will deny anything 75% of the time

Party bus might be tricky as they have decent BS and a lot of Melta. Also they usually move one unit twice, so don’t ever think that 23” is a safe distance from that one super Melta unit, if you’ve got solid firepower consider that sort of unit a dangerous threat

Are there any merits to infiltrating a unit of chosen or havocs?

How would you outfit them?

They seem expensive to use as a suicide unit but I am trying to think of other units to infiltrate other than cultist blobs.

Niiru wrote:

Are there any merits to infiltrating a unit of chosen or havocs?

How would you outfit them?

They seem expensive to use as a suicide unit but I am trying to think of other units to infiltrate other than cultist blobs.

What goal? What point range?
Chosen are literally more expensive havocs with one more attack, sadly, so for a suicide unit i'd recommend havocs with plasma guns. Alternativly you could take autocannons or if you want to go cheap heavy bolters.

I wouldn’t buy them to do it, but I’d keep an open mind and assess the battlefield. If there’s a fantastic vantage point in no man’s land whilst your own DZ can’t see squat, why not put four lascannons up it? Make sure to deploy them last, or else your opponent will get cautious.

Also, no harm in infiltrating your own DZ. If your opponent has one big scary thing they’re deploying last, 1CP to pick your firing location after it drops isn’t a bad call.

Niiru wrote:

Are there any merits to infiltrating a unit of chosen or havocs?

How would you outfit them?

They seem expensive to use as a suicide unit but I am trying to think of other units to infiltrate other than cultist blobs.

It might be a viable tactic on Plasma-wielding Chosen or Havocs, as long as you have somewhere relatively safe to infiltrate them to if you don't get first turn.

On a related note, I've used the Infiltrate strat on Noise Marines, and it works pretty good. Great way to get them into a good position for their relatively light but high ROF guns.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Are there any merits to infiltrating a unit of chosen or havocs?

How would you outfit them?

They seem expensive to use as a suicide unit but I am trying to think of other units to infiltrate other than cultist blobs.

What goal? What point range?
Chosen are literally more expensive havocs with one more attack, sadly, so for a suicide unit i'd recommend havocs with plasma guns. Alternativly you could take autocannons or if you want to go cheap heavy bolters.

1850-2000 points would be normal kind of range.

And the purpose would be an alternative to my previous thinking on a "Chimera/Valkyrie + 2x5-man Plasma Marauder Squads" detachment.

While I like marauders (and the ogryn options too), I'm disliking that FW seem to be squatting the R&H line. Seeing if there is another way I can build my "fluffy special forces squad" using non-FW rules.

Best options seem to be:

Chosen/Havocs (basically the same options, but its a toss up between cheaper vs extra melee capabilities) + HQ leader (lord/champion). Probably infiltrated to save points on transports, but could be put in a Rhino (or a Spartan if I'm feeling nutty.)

or

Raptors. Less firepower and less melee, faster. Could be infiltrated or warptimed, to avoid the deepstrike nerf.


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 ZergSmasher wrote:


On a related note, I've used the Infiltrate strat on Noise Marines, and it works pretty good. Great way to get them into a good position for their relatively light but high ROF guns.

Noise marines are an option too. Certainly worth thinking about. I'd add that to the chosen/havocs line though, as they're all basically the same premise. Noise gets the 2 attacks, but no weapons to use them with.

I don't think they will squat r&h, that would've been likely after the long drought after the vraks books but not after the late 7th edition ia13 and the new vraks books we got later.
I think it is more likely that we could see them along the line of the old storm of Chaos campaign or as a subfaction / faction released by gw.
I belive though that the Modell line is getting squated.

Have you thought about infiltrating regular csm? Or rubrics? Especially rubrics could be interesting, for modelling and gameplay possibilities.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I don't think they will squat r&h, that would've been likely after the long drought after the vraks books but not after the late 7th edition ia13 and the new vraks books we got later.
I think it is more likely that we could see them along the line of the old storm of Chaos campaign or as a subfaction / faction released by gw.
I belive though that the Modell line is getting squated.

Have you thought about infiltrating regular csm? Or rubrics? Especially rubrics could be interesting, for modelling and gameplay possibilities.

I mean I like Rubrics in theory, as they would allow for more flamers in my list, but I thought they were generally considered pretty useless?

I mean I'd also love to run infiltrating terminators, but again are apparently more of a hindrance than a help.

I only really ever play friendlies, but I don't want to just turn up and lose.

I'm new to ruining AL but I like to infiltrate big blobs of cultists to charge turn 1 or buffer my rhinos from charges.

The risk of not going first really dissuades me from infiltrating my expensive units.

I like infiltrating havoc squad idea, even saving it for your own DZ. You can plop them on an obj and really psych out your opponent's placements of units the havoc counters.

I don't own any, but I think plague marines would be a good choice for infiltration as they're pretty durable if you don't go first, have some nice guns, aren't awful in a fight, and in cover on an obj are a pain to remove.

The risk of not going first really dissuades me from infiltrating my expensive units.

You deploy units infiltrated via forward operatives after dicing for who takes the first turn, just in case you weren't aware.

So if you lose first turn you can just stick 'em somewhere safe in or near your d-zone.

 Ap0k wrote:

The risk of not going first really dissuades me from infiltrating my expensive units.

You deploy units infiltrated via forward operatives after dicing for who takes the first turn, just in case you weren't aware.

So if you lose first turn you can just stick 'em somewhere safe in or near your d-zone.

Yeh, I know, but then that feels like a bit of a waste of however many CP I spend on infiltrating. Though there are still ways of getting some use out of it, depending on terrain etc.

Got a game coming up against an Ork player who tends to run ridiculous hordes. I'm thinking volume of fire is the way forwards and largely gunline around Abaddon.
Lots of flamers. Unit of five chosen with combi flamers. I see the point about chosen above but the extra couple of S4 attacks with the chainsword could be useful against orks. Should kill double figures even in overwatch.
Might try running my heldrake for once?
Berserker bus that I'll probably not move but try to hide out of LOS to keep them safe until he's in my lines.
I only have a couple of heavy bolter havocs, maybe a missile launcher too
Then I'm thinking fight fire with fire and go with my own horde of cultists. Rapid fire with votlw should do well.
Any other ideas? I'm currently building a maulerfiend so can try to hurry that along, not sure if he's likely to get overrun tho...

Chosen with combi Flamers and chainswords are absolutely an exception to the ‘take cheaper Havocs instead’ rule IMO. You’re going to get an extra eight hits in with your shooting, and take down one or two more Orks when they charge you. And yeah, Berzerkers should definitely be choosing their fights in the mid to late game when you’re facing green tide. Cultist counter-horde seems ok, but if they do get charged by a largely intact unit with choppas you’re at risk of getting wiped out.

weaver9 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Im facing Sisters for the first time in a big game using my Khorne army. What are some good units to bring to give me an edge? I dont know SoB that well, and im not sure if Zerker Party buses and Letter Bombs are as viable on them.

They presumably bring lots of flames, so I would say be prepared to soak up overwatch some how (charge with your rhinos first, then your bezerkers). But their defensive stats are aren't anything crazy. Drive up and get them skills

Immolators are 12" range and 2d6 heavy flamers so plan accordingly. Bloodletters won't last long.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Chosen with combi Flamers and chainswords are absolutely an exception to the ‘take cheaper Havocs instead’ rule IMO. You’re going to get an extra eight hits in with your shooting, and take down one or two more Orks when they charge you. And yeah, Berzerkers should definitely be choosing their fights in the mid to late game when you’re facing green tide. Cultist counter-horde seems ok, but if they do get charged by a largely intact unit with choppas you’re at risk of getting wiped out.

Combi-Flamers are terrible. Just take the Combi-Bolters and call it a day.

I was just about to dispute that but just mathhammered it and you're killing 1.11 orks with a combi and 1.88 with the combiflamer. Not sure thats worth the extra 9 points.

obviously the combiflamers are more effective in overwatch but its probably better to stay out the way rather than having to move within 8" and commit overwatch suicide

Abaddon303 wrote:
I was just about to dispute that but just mathhammered it and you're killing 1.11 orks with a combi and 1.88 with the combiflamer. Not sure thats worth the extra 9 points.

obviously the combiflamers are more effective in overwatch but its probably better to stay out the way rather than having to move within 8" and commit overwatch suicide

I mean, that is true it's only 1.1 vs 1.8 dead orks... but when you start taking account of squads, that could be 11 dead orks vs 18 dead orks.

I mean tzeentch flamers will only do about 1.8 dead guardsmen each for 28pts, so Combi-Bolter Chosen are only 18 points, so it's a 10 point difference. But Chosen are not considered particularly competitive, while Flamers are at least considered to be pretty good.

Though Fly probably helps with that.

If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.

 lindsay40k wrote:
If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.

Very good point too.

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.

Very good point too.

Why would you ever infiltrate this close?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.

Very good point too.

Why would you ever infiltrate this close?

Potential first strike. 6 Chosen with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords can potentially ruin a good amount of even two Ork Boyz squads.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.

Very good point too.

Why would you ever infiltrate this close?

Aren't like ... 90% of all infiltrate plans all about infiltrating within 12"? Either for the ability to have a guaranteed charge, or for rapid-fire plasma? (Or I guess even Melta, but I would expect that to be impossible with proper screens set up).

Of course, half the time you don't get first turn, so the plans have to change. But if you do get first turn, it's all about the 9"/12" infiltrate.

At least thats what I thought, are a lot of people somehow infiltrating 24"+ away and making use of it?

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.

Very good point too.

Why would you ever infiltrate this close?

Aren't like ... 90% of all infiltrate plans all about infiltrating within 12"? Either for the ability to have a guaranteed charge, or for rapid-fire plasma? (Or I guess even Melta, but I would expect that to be impossible with proper screens set up).

Of course, half the time you don't get first turn, so the plans have to change. But if you do get first turn, it's all about the 9"/12" infiltrate.

At least thats what I thought, are a lot of people somehow infiltrating 24"+ away and making use of it?

A) you infiltrate after determinig who goes first. (armies aswell as who has the first turn advantage determines how much you will infiltrate or how deep.)
B) you often infiltrate that way to eliminate key targets as part of an alpha strike, a green tide however has it's key component hidden and or is so numerous that combi weaponry will not have enough burst rof to dent it.
Which leads to to the possibility of C) defense in depth.

I wasn't planning on infiltrating with the chosen, i play black legion. just looking for ways to get high volume of fire. Much of my army is high powered. Lots of las etc. I don't go up against hordes often


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I was probably going to use them as a screen and road bump

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.

Very good point too.

Why would you ever infiltrate this close?

Aren't like ... 90% of all infiltrate plans all about infiltrating within 12"? Either for the ability to have a guaranteed charge, or for rapid-fire plasma? (Or I guess even Melta, but I would expect that to be impossible with proper screens set up).

Of course, half the time you don't get first turn, so the plans have to change. But if you do get first turn, it's all about the 9"/12" infiltrate.

At least thats what I thought, are a lot of people somehow infiltrating 24"+ away and making use of it?

A) you infiltrate after determinig who goes first. (armies aswell as who has the first turn advantage determines how much you will infiltrate or how deep.)
B) you often infiltrate that way to eliminate key targets as part of an alpha strike, a green tide however has it's key component hidden and or is so numerous that combi weaponry will not have enough burst rof to dent it.
Which leads to to the possibility of C) defense in depth.

I'm not sure how your point about infiltrating after the dice roll relates to what I was saying. I know that's how it works. But when you make a list, and have units planned, and you plan ahead with what you'd like to do with those units, it's always with the hope of getting first turn.

Hence 90% of plans being, essentially, "get first turn, infiltrate within 12", blast/charge the enemy".

Of course if you don't get first turn, then you use plan B. But that doesn't change was your initial plan WAS, it just means your plan failed due to not getting first turn.

Which is one reason I kinda dislike the Alpha Legion stratagem. Its very powerful in 50% of games, and fairly useless in the other 50%. You do still get to place those units after your opponent has finished deployment, so there is some value in that to put things in decently defensive positions, but its nowhere near as good as "First turn 60 berserkers guaranteed charge".

Edit:
While I'm on the subject of Alpha Legion, what do people actually think of the warlord trait?

It's very fluffy, and I like it in theory, but as you get random traits on top of the warlord switcheroo, if runs the risk of you getting fairly unhelpful traits (such as extra death to the false emperor rolls, when you're playing against tau).

It also requires you taking at least 3 Alpha Legion HQ's to really get the most from it, and that's fine if you're doing mono-Alpha but it's a points sink if you're planning to play some varied detachments like daemons or something.

Just wondered if people play with it, or pick a different fixed trait for their warlord.

Niiru wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
I was just about to dispute that but just mathhammered it and you're killing 1.11 orks with a combi and 1.88 with the combiflamer. Not sure thats worth the extra 9 points.

obviously the combiflamers are more effective in overwatch but its probably better to stay out the way rather than having to move within 8" and commit overwatch suicide

I mean, that is true it's only 1.1 vs 1.8 dead orks... but when you start taking account of squads, that could be 11 dead orks vs 18 dead orks.

I mean tzeentch flamers will only do about 1.8 dead guardsmen each for 28pts, so Combi-Bolter Chosen are only 18 points, so it's a 10 point difference. But Chosen are not considered particularly competitive, while Flamers are at least considered to be pretty good.

Though Fly probably helps with that.

Its not fly.
Is that they are more durable, faster, have greater range, and their gun can shoot while in CC as it's considered a pistol. And to top it off, they can be buffed more, easier (heck, you can even buff the gun itself as it's tied to S, and herald boosts S)

Combibolter chosen are cheaper, and begin being useful at longer ranges.
Combibolter chosen aint impressive mind you, but they are better than combiflamer ones.

Niiru wrote:

While I'm on the subject of Alpha Legion, what do people actually think of the warlord trait?

It's very fluffy, and I like it in theory, but as you get random traits on top of the warlord switcheroo, if runs the risk of you getting fairly unhelpful traits (such as extra death to the false emperor rolls, when you're playing against tau).

It also requires you taking at least 3 Alpha Legion HQ's to really get the most from it, and that's fine if you're doing mono-Alpha but it's a points sink if you're planning to play some varied detachments like daemons or something.

Just wondered if people play with it, or pick a different fixed trait for their warlord.

Another question to add on to this (though not really related at all, I just didn't wan't my previous question to get lost) -

What do people think of Bloodcrushers?

I know that Bloodletters are the usual option, one big blob of them with a banner of blood being deepstriked for a 3D6 charge. But as always, blobs of units bore me (both to paint and to play), and I noticed that the Bloodcrushers can -also- be deepstriked and get a banner of blood.

Is a tempting unit to do a conversion for.

Well I'm not sure about the chosen now, I might just drop them completely in favour of more cultists. Doesn't seem like a good idea going up against the quintessential horde army with my own horde.
I'm really struggling to find enough rate of fire in my army. maybe I'll build the fiend as a forge fiend? Alongside 2 units of oblits and buffed by Aba and his extra CP for daemonforge they should be able to kill with almost every shot.

If I'm reading correctly, the theory behind the Chosen was to use them as a speedbump - present them as a viable charge target, have a large unit charge them and lose a lot going in to flamer overwatch, then (if you survive) falling back and trying to shoot the overextended unit to pieces.

Why sink so many points into a speed hump unit then? Assuming no other upgrades, 5 Chosen with Combi-Flamers (assuming the champion gets one too) is 135pts. Hardly expensive, but I doubt you'll be killing 135pts worth of orks with that strategy, unless you trick him into charging in with an expensive but fragile unit. A unit of 5 Havocs with 4 flamers is only 101pts, which will have a similar damage output on overwatch (you could also give the champion a combi-flamer I suppose), but for fewer points?

A unit of 5 Havocs with 4 heavy bolters would be my pick though - it's 105pts and if you use Veterans of The Long War to that unit, you're going to be wounding on a 2+ against T4 enemies. If you're shooting at lightly armoured enemies, they're likely not going to get much (if any) armour saves either. Combine that with the Mark of Slaanesh ability to shoot twice in a phase - for 3CPs you're getting a very high anti-horde damage output. If I'm reading it correctly, VotLW also affects BOTH sets of shooting, because it simply states "until the end of the phase".

Given the choice between spending 105pts for the HB Havocs and 135pts for the Combi-Flamer suicide squad, I know where I'd rather throw my points. Heck, with the spare 30pts, that's almost a unit of Cultists to fulfill the speed-hump role anyway.