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But you do bring them back too full strength. You simply can’t place them all on the table and there for 39 of them dies.
It’s the same if disembarking from a vehicle, if you can’t place your models within 3” of the vehicle and more then 1” from an enemy model your model(s) dies.
Well, disembarking explains that. I took it to mean that if you can't place all the models you can't place the unit. I don't have codex in front of me.
Well that’s true.
It does say full starting strength and nothing about if you can’t place them all...
so RAI it might be only used for friendly cultists but RAW allows enemy cultists too and must be full starting strength...
I love how this ‘bend RAW to absolute breaking point’ rabbit hole has now ended up in minutiae of how this ‘RAW compliant’ pilfering of enemy models would actually work under RAW
Now that the AL stratagem has been nerfed into the ground, what are the thoughts on the best army to run cultists with?
Death Guard would seem to be a strong contender, as they get 18" range on their rapid fire autoguns.
AL still gets the -1 to hit outside of 12", but as cultists need to be within 12" to do anything that leaves them as backfield cannon fodder (which is still a valid use). Being unable to send a 40-man blob into the enemy lines anymore hurts them though.
Tide of Traitors is still good for the 40-man blob, but they might be better off with... hmm, actually word bearers might be stronger than AL now for them. Black Legion too, with the ability to advance and still shoot. Or World Eaters / Renegades if you plan to give them CCW's and charge into melee tarpits.
Lots of options now, which is one good side of losing the infiltrate I guess. Unfortunately instead of making bad options better to create balance, GW decided to make the only good option worse. But thats GW for you I guess!
I still think DG with the 18" rapid fire is pretty strong for them though. And as we just discussed with the quirky wording on the Tide of Traitors stratagem, as long as you unlock the CSM stratagems you can still Tide your cultists!
Keep running them as Alpha Legion. Deploy them on the front line, and pop the strat on them. Best deploy them in easy reach of cover in case you end up going second. If you do go second, move them into cover if possible or out of LOS. If you go first, use the strat to move them up, then do their normal move, then have a Sorcerer cast Warptime on them. You'll still end up in the enemy's grill like before. It's not quite as powerful as it used to be, but can still have uses. I wouldn't do more than 1 unit anymore though, as only 1 gets Warptime per turn.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 23 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Tried a sort of anti castellan list and it worked out alot better than I expected. But opponent wasn't expecting it.
Spoiler:
It had :
Abbadon
Jump pack sorceror with wraptime and death hex
3 units of 8 Havocs, 4 lascannons each unit.
3 units of 10 CSM, 2 lascannons and champion combi bolter each unit,
2 units of single Chaos Spawn
1 Auxilliary support detachment of 20 bloodletter with banner, etc.
I was playing against an IG brigade (for mass cp), with blood angels batallion of smash captain, Melfieston, and a IK house Raven Castellan with Cawl's wath and bulkwark for the 4++, upgradable to 3+++
Basically, he didn't expect a certain combo. I got first turn, my sorceror was deployed really far forward. 1st turn, he jump packed move advanced 16 inches, then he warptimed himself for another 12 inches. After that he was within 12 inch range of the enemy castellan. Cast death hex successfully, failed ot deny. So, the invulnerable on his Castellan went poof.
After that, the massed lascannons took the Castellan down to 1 wound. A few lascannons were out of range, and these took out two of his sentinels and one of his heavy support lascannon teams.
On his turn, he used a ton of cps, got his castellan to top tier, activated order of campanions and fired everything at one of my havocs squad. He also fired his siege missile at my Abaddon, but only took two wounds off (cos of Abaddon's special rule). He killed just 5 Havocs with his full salvo, which means that I still had 3 lascannons intact in that squad plus Abaddon made sure it didnt run. His mephiston and flying smash captain charged into my army first turn and killed some CSM, but zero lascannons. He also killed my sorceror (expected).
2nd turn, my massed lascannons finished off his Castellan, his mephiston and his smash captain and that was more of less it. (I forgot about my blood letter bomb and it didn't even need to come in before we called it).
This all infantry list negates one of the Castellan's biggest advantages. There are zero vehicles or titanic units for it to kill with its volcano lance. And there are alot of abalative wounds to get through before you finally reach the lascannon guys. It also has 18 lascannon shots, and with Cacophony, it can have 22 shots per turn. Plus the flying sorceror combo to remove invul shields.
Even if it goes second, it can deploy defensive prepared positions for army wide +1 cover. Now, I know I was lucky enough to get the sorceror's warp time and death hex off and his castellan was in range. But even trading heavy shots, this army has a better chance than other shooty CSM armies I can think of going up against a Castellan. It has some disadvantages of course. Its very stationary other than the blood letter bomb. But it can dish out a lot of hurt.
Just sharing.
Awesome list, very similar to the Black Legion gunline I play. A few points to consider about optimization:
1) You may want to consider swapping havocs for laspreds for the mobility. I know high damage weapons are a problem, but - the Predator's higher toughness means fewer shots get thru. It's usually worth it.
2) You may wish to get some Cultists to screen your firebase. It's very important to keep the units with the lascannons out of combat. If you can screen the whole army with Cultists, you can ensure your opponent doesn't have a way to charge them until turn 3 - at the earliest.
3) You may want to consider getting another beatstick unit. If you are shooting with lascannons, how often can you actually use deathhex? Replace the Sorcerer with a Daemon Prince with wings to jump out of your lines when something gets close.
Now that the AL stratagem has been nerfed into the ground, what are the thoughts on the best army to run cultists with?
Black Legion. Advance and shoot means a lot with 40-man Cultist units. Like you said, they want to be up close.
Before they nerfed ToT, I would sometimes play a Black Legion list with 3 40-man squads. I'd advance them, shoot something up, let my opponent whittle down one unit, then restore it to full strength deep inside his deployment zone to march on an objective. Then do that again each turn until the game ended.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/07 04:21:35
@Niiru Word Bearers, gods bless them, don't help THAT much. ATSKNF isn't so great it's worth investing in. It's better than nothing but I've actually been hurt by rerolling into a higher #. And WB don't have any special characters to gimmick with them.
That's one reason I'm trying a train to Skarbrand.
The Faithless with Lord Akros would be fun.
BL with Abaddon is still a real threat.
Worth noting that AL strat gives a Cultist blob with flamers a minimum threat range of 24”, if you roll 2+ on an Advance that’s a first turn 4D6 on a forwards screen and a really annoying prospect for melee armies
As for best Legion to take them with... I main Word Bearers and I hesitate to jump up and say we’ve got this. World Eaters getting +1A looks better. Death Guard getting to roll twice for advance - or double tap at 18” - looks better. Black Legion firing autoguns on the hoof looks better. Night Lords dropping a massive blob of -1Ld in the backfield looks situationally better than a rough average of losing one fewer to morale. I’m even looking at Iron Warriors and musing on all the times I’ve had bullets bounce off MSU marines in cover.
If there’s anything WB Cultists can shine at, it’s being able to hear a Dark Apostle from farther away when he’s the Warlord. But even that’s marginal when anyone can just conga line.
I always struggled running more than 1 blob of x40 cultists that are not black legion, if you lost 10 models per blob suddenly morale is crushing no matter what you roll almost. And cultists do nothing but die pretty much. Furthermore you are mentally committing to maybe a minimum of 2(?) turns of morale immunity strat to enable a Tide of traitors drop and to keep from losing models to morale. I am more or less on the black legion hype train where you can turn the rapid guns into assault and furthermore make the morale immune and rerolling all hits. Add an exalted champ on the cheap for all wound rolls (in melee). Also the bonus 2 CP helps pay for tide etc.
orkswubwub wrote: I always struggled running more than 1 blob of x40 cultists that are not black legion, if you lost 10 models per blob suddenly morale is crushing no matter what you roll almost. And cultists do nothing but die pretty much. Furthermore you are mentally committing to maybe a minimum of 2(?) turns of morale immunity strat to enable a Tide of traitors drop and to keep from losing models to morale. I am more or less on the black legion hype train where you can turn the rapid guns into assault and furthermore make the morale immune and rerolling all hits. Add an exalted champ on the cheap for all wound rolls (in melee). Also the bonus 2 CP helps pay for tide etc.
Morale immunity is one of the perks, yes, but that means they always need to be near Abaddon.
Dunno if it's just me, but large BL Cultist squads play weird. When I have 3x 40x Cultists on the table, about a fifth of them are always away from the fight, conga lined back to Abaddon. When they get a bad charge roll, I usually find it's better to move most of the models away from the target (so as to tie up other units with the pile in.) Because you have so many bodies, charges are more about wrapping up opponents instead of just beating them over the heads.
There's nothing bad about this. It's just very different from how I would play them as World Eaters, for example.
orkswubwub wrote: I always struggled running more than 1 blob of x40 cultists that are not black legion, if you lost 10 models per blob suddenly morale is crushing no matter what you roll almost. And cultists do nothing but die pretty much. Furthermore you are mentally committing to maybe a minimum of 2(?) turns of morale immunity strat to enable a Tide of traitors drop and to keep from losing models to morale. I am more or less on the black legion hype train where you can turn the rapid guns into assault and furthermore make the morale immune and rerolling all hits. Add an exalted champ on the cheap for all wound rolls (in melee). Also the bonus 2 CP helps pay for tide etc.
Morale immunity is one of the perks, yes, but that means they always need to be near Abaddon.
Dunno if it's just me, but large BL Cultist squads play weird. When I have 3x 40x Cultists on the table, about a fifth of them are always away from the fight, conga lined back to Abaddon. When they get a bad charge roll, I usually find it's better to move most of the models away from the target (so as to tie up other units with the pile in.) Because you have so many bodies, charges are more about wrapping up opponents instead of just beating them over the heads.
There's nothing bad about this. It's just very different from how I would play them as World Eaters, for example.
In my experience, cultists are better off just going 40 autoguns with Abbadon.
orkswubwub wrote: I always struggled running more than 1 blob of x40 cultists that are not black legion, if you lost 10 models per blob suddenly morale is crushing no matter what you roll almost. And cultists do nothing but die pretty much. Furthermore you are mentally committing to maybe a minimum of 2(?) turns of morale immunity strat to enable a Tide of traitors drop and to keep from losing models to morale. I am more or less on the black legion hype train where you can turn the rapid guns into assault and furthermore make the morale immune and rerolling all hits. Add an exalted champ on the cheap for all wound rolls (in melee). Also the bonus 2 CP helps pay for tide etc.
Morale immunity is one of the perks, yes, but that means they always need to be near Abaddon.
Dunno if it's just me, but large BL Cultist squads play weird. When I have 3x 40x Cultists on the table, about a fifth of them are always away from the fight, conga lined back to Abaddon. When they get a bad charge roll, I usually find it's better to move most of the models away from the target (so as to tie up other units with the pile in.) Because you have so many bodies, charges are more about wrapping up opponents instead of just beating them over the heads.
There's nothing bad about this. It's just very different from how I would play them as World Eaters, for example.
Don't forget Iron Warriors can get near the same effect.
However, from my more optimized list I'm all about Abigail teleporting in with Infiltrated Cultists. They'll still get the Fearless and they'll be blocking everything. The Errata stopped that being immediately effective but I think it's still valid.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Iron Warriors vs Black Legion seems to be a pretty close run thing on the morale front. But if you run MSU cultists, Death Guard are probably the better option (maybe).
My list was in need of some MW dealers, so I thought two plaguecasters would fit that role. The cheapest way to add them to my list was an Outrider Detatchment filled with the Gellerpox fast attack vermin...
Now I got the Gellerpox half that I ordered online and what do I see???
Their "Nurgle" Keyword isnt one of the "Faction Kewords"
Does this mean the Gellerpox models can only be fielded with themselves, and not as part of a soup???
Seems like I wasted a bunch of money on models I am not going to use
My list was in need of some MW dealers, so I thought two plaguecasters would fit that role. The cheapest way to add them to my list was an Outrider Detatchment filled with the Gellerpox fast attack vermin...
Now I got the Gellerpox half that I ordered online and what do I see???
Their "Nurgle" Keyword isnt one of the "Faction Kewords"
Does this mean the Gellerpox models can only be fielded with themselves, and not as part of a soup???
Seems like I wasted a bunch of money on models I am not going to use
At least painting them will be fun
It does appear that they can only be fielded in a detachment of their own, and not mixed with other chaos units.
The rogue traders have the same keywords (imperium + starstriders) so they would appear to be in the same situation.
Warhammer Community said the two Rogue Trader teams can only be fielded as-is in their own specific unique detachments, did you get the full GPI mini-Codex in your order? I’d expect that’s where it’d be found
I'm just curious to hear if the GPI are any good, by themselves or otherwise. The models are great, but if the 40k rules for them are cabbage, it'll be a hard pass for me. Same with the Elucidian Starstriders.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 23 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm just curious to hear if the GPI are any good, by themselves or otherwise. The models are great, but if the 40k rules for them are cabbage, it'll be a hard pass for me. Same with the Elucidian Starstriders.
Hard to say without someone doing a bunch of mathammering, but it seems they're not really worth it competitively.
They use up a detachment, and don't give you any CP for it.
They have little to no synergy with any army list, even a nurgle one.
I mean, if you look closely (and this surprised me when I noticed it), none of them are actually Daemons. So you can't even give them +1S from auras, or target them with psychic powers. (Actually the Glitchlings are daemons, but none of the rest are).
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm just curious to hear if the GPI are any good, by themselves or otherwise. The models are great, but if the 40k rules for them are cabbage, it'll be a hard pass for me. Same with the Elucidian Starstriders.
Hard to say without someone doing a bunch of mathammering, but it seems they're not really worth it competitively.
They use up a detachment, and don't give you any CP for it.
They have little to no synergy with any army list, even a nurgle one.
I mean, if you look closely (and this surprised me when I noticed it), none of them are actually Daemons. So you can't even give them +1S from auras, or target them with psychic powers. (Actually the Glitchlings are daemons, but none of the rest are).
Not even any unique abilities/stratagems/weapons to make up for it, huh? That's a damn shame. Guess I'll have to pass on the Rogue Trader box, unless I just decide I really want the models.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 23 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm just curious to hear if the GPI are any good, by themselves or otherwise. The models are great, but if the 40k rules for them are cabbage, it'll be a hard pass for me. Same with the Elucidian Starstriders.
Hard to say without someone doing a bunch of mathammering, but it seems they're not really worth it competitively.
They use up a detachment, and don't give you any CP for it.
They have little to no synergy with any army list, even a nurgle one.
I mean, if you look closely (and this surprised me when I noticed it), none of them are actually Daemons. So you can't even give them +1S from auras, or target them with psychic powers. (Actually the Glitchlings are daemons, but none of the rest are).
Not even any unique abilities/stratagems/weapons to make up for it, huh? That's a damn shame. Guess I'll have to pass on the Rogue Trader box, unless I just decide I really want the models.
You could always do what I would do (if I liked the nurgle aesthetic), which is get them and run them as something else. Glitchlings and Grubs would make some cool nurgling bases, Vulgrar would work as a daemon prince, the others would work as things like nurgle beasts or plaguewalkers. The Hullbreakers would make some cool Mutilators.
I'm considering getting the Starstrider box set for that reason, using them as my cultist leaders and maybe some R&H units, things like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/08 01:12:35
What are people doing with Gnarlmaws, these days? The fact that one of them takes up a whole detachment slot is cramping my attempts to build a list with them. I’m trying to squeeze in Warptime, a detachment of Daemons, and Possessed. Wanted the Possessed to be DG so I can have solid DPs (stop it, Slaanesh) and buff the Possessed right up. All workable in friendlies, but it’d have to be over 2K to work as is in a competitive...
...here, can we still summon on T1? If I could pray Epidemius into existence, that’d be something. But I’ve got a horrible feeling that our weakest gambit has now been stamped so far below viability, it’s not even allowed any more...
Didn't realize gnarlmaws took up a whole detachment slot. That doesn't seem great. I painted one up a few weeks ago and it looks fantastic and have been itching to field it.
Seems like the best use is to deep strike it midfield and then use it to advance and charge nurglings/plaguebearers into enemy lines. Good for some midfield area denial and also an amazing spot to teleport Nurgle obliterators, which would still keep a 2+ sv against AP -2 and 3+ save against AP -3 when near a gnarlmaw.
Not even any unique abilities/stratagems/weapons to make up for it, huh? That's a damn shame. Guess I'll have to pass on the Rogue Trader box, unless I just decide I really want the models.
Well the gellerpox guys come with a set of actually interesting stratagems (interesting doesn't mean strong). Furthermore you unlock them by using the thricecursed as your HQ, and not by the usual detatchment way. Sadly this is pointless at the moment, since they cant be mixed with other chaos units.
Also the trice cursed can give you 3 CP that can only be spend on gellerpox stratagems.
I'm just curious to hear if the GPI are any good, by themselves or otherwise. The models are great, but if the 40k rules for them are cabbage, it'll be a hard pass for me. Same with the Elucidian Starstriders
I haven't fielded mine yet, but at least on paper they look REALLY interesting.
The gellerpox are the cheapest units chaos has to offer so far. A lot of the models only cost 3 points, while having a trait that boosts durability like DR or -1 to hit.
The fly swarm looks like it can actually do well, especially taken its super low cost into account. They are fast enough to get into range in time, cheap enough for a distraction gimmick and thanks to their regeneration need to be fully cleared off the table.
I just wish they would make 'nurgle' a faction keyword...
barboggo wrote: Didn't realize gnarlmaws took up a whole detachment slot. That doesn't seem great. I painted one up a few weeks ago and it looks fantastic and have been itching to field it.
Seems like the best use is to deep strike it midfield and then use it to advance and charge nurglings/plaguebearers into enemy lines. Good for some midfield area denial and also an amazing spot to teleport Nurgle obliterators, which would still keep a 2+ sv against AP -2 and 3+ save against AP -3 when near a gnarlmaw.
Hmm. Nurglings don’t really need the help to make contact. The movement rules only apply to units that are within range of the Gnarlmaw at the *start of their turn*, and Horty can only sow them at the end of his movement. It’s not explicitly clear to me if he can do that on the first turn (it doesn’t *say* they’re reinforcements). He *can* drop it 1.1” away from enemies, but none of this is going to enable my advance-Warptime-advance-charge on T1.
Oblits definitely like it, but I’m not sure about bringing them on T2 and investing in Horty instead of deploying them in front of a FG with a 0+ save (yes, I know 1’s always fail, guys) and walking forwards to shoot, and having almost enough pts for a second squad of Oblits.
Honestly, I think the best thing about Horty is dropping FG’s on an objective and swarming it with Plaguebearers and PBC’s. That does avoid using a fortifications network, which in turn means that some CSM Oblits could also come along for the ride. Though this is a very different list to the T1 rushdown I’m musing.
Latro_ wrote: Ok since its all one big 'chaos' faction party was thinking of a thread to discuss chaos now the the nurglings are out of the bag re rules. (not sure there is another thread like this right?)
First thing to kick it off what do we think is a good way to run Chaos space marines daemon princes?
I'v been pondering and, the sword and the axe are a fortune, you might as well scrap em pay the 10pts for maleific talons... boom 7 attacks s7 -2 dm2.
Hear me out, not even bother with wings and make it a 'choose a god except khorne' for psychics
Still has a 8" move, unlike the daemons daemon prince is wounds 8 so can be hidden... keep him near your guys to re-roll 1's and buff units with prescience, also acts as a solid deny the witch on your lines and act as a counter assault unit if anything gets close.
all for 156pts
Not buying the wings is literally the worst piece of advice I've read on this forum. Like, ever. And I remember when someone said that Imperial Guard have a melee deathstar and claimed it was effective.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Friend, the post you’re quoting is from 191 pages ago and predates multiple publications and FAQs that make the information it was based on long out of date.
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Imperial Knights: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
