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 Ap0k wrote:

Because I'm going to use VotLW on Cultists?

Have you run any numbers on VotLW/Cacophony/RR-aura/Prescience Cultists?

Feel free to go ahead and do so.

In the absence of changing the min/max squad sizes, they are absolutely still worth using at 5pts per, and likely still better than most of the other available troops choices for CSM.

And that's a lot of support when I can use that on something else. I shouldn't have to spend that many points and use that much support for 1 unit. Yeah it's cute when it goes off, but how often does it actually happen?

The answer is not a lot. I'm not scared of that scenario using any army, and you shouldn't be either.

What else are you going to use it on that's that versatile and capable of that much damage?

Oblits are about the only unit that comes close at a similar points level, and that's a dedicated AV unit.

 Ap0k wrote:
What else are you going to use it on that's that versatile and capable of that much damage?

Oblits are about the only unit that comes close at a similar points level, and that's a dedicated AV unit.

The logic here being that because the cultists are the only units worth supporting in our codex they should be nerfed? I'm skeptical its warrented because from what I can tell there are many other more point efficient units in armies that actually have competitive codexes. That being said the cultist support network list can do a large amount of damage 1 or two times assuming your oppenent let the whole squad get in rapid fire range of your 6" move cultists and fails to wipe them on the backswing so you can tide of traitors. Also hopefully they don't have any psykers to deny your powers, go first against you, or play agents of vect at all. But if all that is true, sure cultists are capable of great things. But the amount of ifs and investment seema reasonable to me.

Yeah, nerfing cultists is a bit extreme when they're honestly the only top tier option in the book. Where is csm competitive viability going to come from now?

Unless the entire dark eldar codex gets a price hike, orcs get another price hike, etc.

I can see you guys are determined to be the victim here, so I'm gonna take a hard pass on talking in circles.

If you didn't see a Cultist nerf coming, and you can't fathom why an obviously overperforming unit would get nerfed, irrespective of the rest of the codex (which is, for the most part, trash, but that doesn't mean you just let the ridiculous units stay ridiculous), there's nothing I can say that will change your mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, you're speculating on part of a rumour, while conveniently ignoring the fact the another part of the rumour suggested 5-10% points reductions for unspecified 'Space Marines'.

At a ten percent reduction, space marines are still trash. At 9 points, they'd be good. At ten, they'd be reasonably ok. At 11 or 12, they still have the same problems. Bolters are still bolters, and without weight of fire, they're terrible.

I think having one ridiculous unit in an otherwise trash codex is fair. Cultists aren't dominating like knights and guard, or eldar soup, so I'm not even really willing to concede they are ridiculous.

No one wants to play morale immune cultists spam, it's just literally the only viable strategy in the codex, and now it's 20% less effective.

I completely agree that a 10% reduction wouldn't be enough to bring most marine units up to par.

We don't know the extent of the nerfs on other factions yet, nor do we know the extent of the buffs on marines, so it's a bit early to be complaining about how the sky is falling.

We also don't know if CA will bring any changes to how many CP's detachments provide, whether there will be any benefits to playing mono-faction or penalties for playing soup, any restrictions placed on how CP can be spent, or any number of core-rules based changes that can affect how the game is played.

 Ap0k wrote:
I can see you guys are determined to be the victim here, so I'm gonna take a hard pass on talking in circles.

If you didn't see a Cultist nerf coming, and you can't fathom why an obviously overperforming unit would get nerfed, irrespective of the rest of the codex (which is, for the most part, trash, but that doesn't mean you just let the ridiculous units stay ridiculous), there's nothing I can say that will change your mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, you're speculating on part of a rumour, while conveniently ignoring the fact the another part of the rumour suggested 5-10% points reductions for unspecified 'Space Marines'.

I absolutely saw it coming. It doesn't mean I agree with it. The point here isn't that you are wrong. Far from it. I believe that cultists are overperforming. I also think you could fix it without point adjustments and not significantly increase the page real estate by removing the heritic astartes keyword from cultists.

To your point of not kust leaving ridiculous units alone I also agree. My point is unless they are also adusting more fundementally imbalanced units(which they might) I would think cultists would be down on the list.

As for being the victim. I mean by definition anyone who used cultists would be, but ill go ahead and assume you are using the word derogitorily with the idea being that we are unjustly complaining. To that point you could very well be right as well. We will have to see what the Chapter Approved actually looks like before we can judge in full.

If history is any indication, they will break the list and leave no alternative. Every competitive list chaos has had, like malefic lords, null deploy obliterator spam, etc has been gutted leaving us where we are right now, and likely this, too, is gone.

Do Daemon Princes taken in a CSM detachment have the "Daemon of X" rules from the Daemon codex? I.E. would a CSM Daemon Prince with Nurgle allegiance get the Disgustingly Resilient rule from the Daemon codex?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Do Daemon Princes taken in a CSM detachment have the "Daemon of X" rules from the Daemon codex? I.E. would a CSM Daemon Prince with Nurgle allegiance get the Disgustingly Resilient rule from the Daemon codex?

Afraid not. Just another reason why CSM princes are inferior to every other available Daemon Prince.

Darksteve wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
I can see you guys are determined to be the victim here, so I'm gonna take a hard pass on talking in circles.

If you didn't see a Cultist nerf coming, and you can't fathom why an obviously overperforming unit would get nerfed, irrespective of the rest of the codex (which is, for the most part, trash, but that doesn't mean you just let the ridiculous units stay ridiculous), there's nothing I can say that will change your mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, you're speculating on part of a rumour, while conveniently ignoring the fact the another part of the rumour suggested 5-10% points reductions for unspecified 'Space Marines'.

I absolutely saw it coming. It doesn't mean I agree with it. The point here isn't that you are wrong. Far from it. I believe that cultists are overperforming. I also think you could fix it without point adjustments and not significantly increase the page real estate by removing the heritic astartes keyword from cultists.

To your point of not kust leaving ridiculous units alone I also agree. My point is unless they are also adusting more fundementally imbalanced units(which they might) I would think cultists would be down on the list.

As for being the victim. I mean by definition anyone who used cultists would be, but ill go ahead and assume you are using the word derogitorily with the idea being that we are unjustly complaining. To that point you could very well be right as well. We will have to see what the Chapter Approved actually looks like before we can judge in full.

Cultists are "good", but not OP in any form anymore; they're been slowly weeded out. As well, with the upcoming nerf to Alpha Legion (again), they will see even LESS use, because they die in droves to anything decent. They need to be within 12" to achieve the best results, and be slanesh, AND it costs CP to keep them running (2 if you VOTLW and shoot again, 3 more if you bring them back). 4 pts is fine for a unit with a 6+, T3, that requires a lot of CP to do anything good. Not to mention you need Abaddon, or run them as Iron Warriors to circumvent the morale weakness. If you plan to use any amount of cultists to do work, it requires a lot, and a list built around them.

Compare this to the 4 pt guardsman, who on top of having a much better stat line, can create an extremely points efficient battalion and still do a bit of work... I just dont see why they're costing up cultists unless they do the same to guardsmen. Especially when you see that its an extra 40 points for a full cultist squad, so if you are planning around them now you are losing 120 points of your list (assuming 3 max squads).

I've never been a huge proponent of cultist spam, they are good, but not crazy when you look at all the things it takes to make them work. They are like the chaos version of smash captains, except they can't guarentee a kill on some of the bigger stuff. As it stands I'd probably want to take 30 horrors over 40 cultists for the points if the nerf is true; they do basically the same job, and horrors are less CP hungry (and much harder to kill)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nature's Minister wrote:
Yeah, nerfing cultists is a bit extreme when they're honestly the only top tier option in the book. Where is csm competitive viability going to come from now?

Unless the entire dark eldar codex gets a price hike, orcs get another price hike, etc.

Basic CSM dex is in a hard spot; 1k sons has access to the best spells, but has (arguably) better options. CSM, however, still has noise marines, havoks, and obliterators, and some of the better relics

Can you find me a high placing tournament list that uses any of those three units from the last like eight or ten months?

Assuming everything else stays the same, Thousand Sons / daemons is how I'll go, completely excising csm from my list. Very sad.

Nature's Minister wrote:
Can you find me a high placing tournament list that uses any of those three units from the last like eight or ten months?

Assuming everything else stays the same, Thousand Sons / daemons is how I'll go, completely excising csm from my list. Very sad.

Rumor has it 1k sons is getting a Smite nerf of some sort (and GK getting a buff). Probably wait and see... I mean it sucks if so, 1k sons is a psychic army, it would be lame if they stripped its identity; but smite is pretty powerful. They just need to rework the damn spell already and make it a shooting attack or something.

As long as Thousand Sons can threaten charges on the first turn with DMCed tzaangor blobs and warp timed stuff, they'll be ok. Probably just want people to attempt crappy spells like tzeentch's firestorm

I don't mind cultists going to 5pts so long as they balance the rest of the codex internally and externally. I'm not a massively competitive player but there are too many units I feel are beyond uncompetitive and it makes list building very bland if you're restricted to such few options.
Marines, terminators, land raiders and melta are too expensive, but hopefully that is addressed as a game wide adjustment.
All the daemon engines should at the very least be ws/bs 3+ and they'd still not be good enough for their points. That would give the maulerfiend the exact same base stats as a warglaive but still be more expensive and have a shorter range weapon!
The helldrake needs more attacks or 2d6 on the flamer do it's not completely pointless.
There's no situation where you'd take possessed over berserkers.
Warp talons need something so that their ignore overwatch rule is actually useable and mutilators need something so that they're not completely horrible.
It also frustrates me that CSM don't get equivalents of the lower tier elite slot characters like loyalist champions/ancients/apothecaries. I feel chaos marine armies should have more characterful individuals in their armies rather than the rank and file and it is difficult to fit more than a handful of hqs.

Meanwhile in garage-hammerland, life continued much as it had the past few editions, with some players scarcely even aware of the existence of chapter approved.

the.cobb wrote:
Meanwhile in garage-hammerland, life continued much as it had the past few editions, with some players scarcely even aware of the existence of chapter approved.

What does this even mean

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the.cobb wrote:
Meanwhile in garage-hammerland, life continued much as it had the past few editions, with some players scarcely even aware of the existence of chapter approved.

What does this even mean

It means that some things that should not have been forgotten were lost.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the.cobb wrote:
Meanwhile in garage-hammerland, life continued much as it had the past few editions, with some players scarcely even aware of the existence of chapter approved.

What does this even mean

I think that's his way of saying he doesn't care about CA, I wonder why he bothered to interject with it but meh, to each their own.

How are Night Lords in the Leadership De-buffing department compared to what the Aeldaris can do?

I think I read on BoLS about a combo of Drukari, Harlequins, and Hemlocks that can put units at like -10 Ld and up to -15 if they get spells and relics working together.

I currently have Iron Warriors, but always loved the Nightlords' look. Wondering what kinda tricks they can pull.

Thinking about the Adepticon 2019 40k Championships. I was gonna do the Gallant (Gentleman's GT) but almost everything sold out less than 2 hours after registration opened. So with 8 slots left I decided to do the big one. I lost 11, yes, 11 games in a row at 3 tournaments a few years back with my old Sons of Malice so my CSMs are looking for revenge.

I'm hoping Dreadclaws and Obliterators don't get more expensive, need those in there I think. Maybe Mutilators will get a change with more attacks, or doing mortal wounds on 6s to hit or something. That new upcoming kit will need selling!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Do Daemon Princes taken in a CSM detachment have the "Daemon of X" rules from the Daemon codex? I.E. would a CSM Daemon Prince with Nurgle allegiance get the Disgustingly Resilient rule from the Daemon codex?

As already answered, the answer is no sadly.

If you want to take a Daemon Prince in a generic CSM list, at bare minimum take him in a Patrol detachment from DG/TS/Daemons codex so he gets the full daemon keyword benefits.

So I got two Defilers for $50; yes, I know they're meh at best.

However, for the price, I couldn't pass them up. Looking through stuff, I'm thinking 1k sons may be the way to go; ready access to warptime and prescience, the ability to give them a 4++, and healing them seems like it might just work... I know they need to be far cheaper, and why they're not immune to heavy weapon penalties is beyond me for the price... thoughts?

In my experience with the Defiler in 8th, you REALLY dont want to stack your buffs on it. Spending 1 CP on rerolling its hits and wounds is more than enough, and it will not be dealing enough damage in melee to warrant Warptime. Focus your buffs on damage dealers, a Defiler is best used as a backline gunner, or as a distraction in melee. But truth be told, I believe a Maulerfiend is better for melee distracting anyways.

I know it sounds lame, but go ranged for your defiler. I run mine as a Havoc/Duel Lascannon, and it works wonders.

At what price point would daemon engines be usable? 100 points for a forgefiend? 120 or 130 for a defiler? I really want to like them but it is difficult to make them work.

Their price point is fine, they are just unfortunatly priced around an ABSOLUTELY ridiculous stratagem. If you pump CP into a Daemon Engine, it can dish out far more damage than any of its tank or helbrute counterparts. The only two i'd say that are strictly overcosted are the Heldrake, and the Defiler. The Forgefiend, Lord of Skulls, Maulerfiend and the Forgeworld models are all fairly priced, if you take into account that 1 CP reroll everything strat.

I don't think I've seen a forgefiend once all of 8th edition, except when I played it before codex csm was released. That speaks of being obscenely overcosted for what it brings, even with the stratagem.

Could the "5pt Cultist" be a reference to the pricing of Chaos Autoguns at 1pt per model instead of 0pts per model? In the last edition, I modelled up one unit of Cultists with pistols and one unit with autoguns because I loathed the idea of paying a whole point for the autogun. If GW has identified that the problem is 40-strong units with autoguns using stratagems, perhaps putting a price on their weapon upgrade is what they're going for? If so I'll just continue using my pistol chaps as screen units and objective holders (because let's be honest, if something moves within 24" of 10 Cultists with Autoguns it's not really worried about them) and shelve the autogun fellas.

I'd be a lot happier if the autogun cultists were replaced with proper renegade guardsmen myself, given that's what mine are mostly modelled as.

All the Daemon engines need help, including the maulerfiend. Both the maulerfiend and the warglaive are 12wounds T7 S6 3+ 5+inv. They both have 4 attacks Sx2 -3AP 3D. But the warglaive moves 2" quicker, hits on 3+ rather than 4+ and it has a 30" meltagun. AND we pay 22 points extra for the mauler...
Giving the maulerfiend tendrils helps it but not enough

I know it doesnt justify the points, but units like heralds and mutalith vortex beasts can make the engines pretty damn fun too.