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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3 Melta Guns are also more expensive than 3 Plasma Guns. That's 51 points vs 39 (which basically means another Plasma Gun). Skip the Melta until we see if Chapter Approved understands we don't want to pay 17 points for a single shot.

So I was going to keep arguing my point about the meltas; I still think 3 meltas are better IF they are within 6 inches of an appropriate target (T7 or T8) as mathhammer says 3 plasma does less damage even if overcharged (I'm assuming the meltas do 4 damage per unsaved wounding hit, as it is a 75% chance to do at least 4 damage on a 2d6-discard-lowest) against both, and with 4 plasma against 3 melta you have to overcharge the plasma to do more damage against both, which puts you at a 66% chance of loosing at least one plasma to overheating.

*BUT* my mathhammer showed that that melta 'death-star' is still only doing 5.3 damage on average to T7 3+ and 4 damage on average against T8 3+ (again, assuming for melta that 1 wounding hit does 4 damage). My mathhammer might be a little off in places, but I think it still demonstrates that this melta raptor unit is not going to do much at all, especially compared with the sheer number of other targets that plasma does better against (basically everything else except

So, a new proposal; do what the others said, take all plasma, and ignore high T targets unless you can bring ALL the plasma to bear on it at once, maybe? 4 units with 3 plasma in each overcharging at rapid fire range do average 17 wnds vs T8, rising to 20 if rerolling all ones. And that jump pack lord would be helpful for re-rolling ones so you can overcharge everything possible with reduced risk (assuming they are within aura of course), as overcharge is S8 and crucially D2. Play to the objectives and pick off the weaker units and bring the leadership debuff to bear where able to; you'll often only need to kill one or two models to start getting decent morale losses happening so get target priority happening and spread those kills around to stop stratagem shenanigans. Even against Orks, getting the leadership debuff onto smaller specialist units that aren't near their warbosses can work, as can simply packing on the kills enough onto a big unit; kill 15 out of 30 and with -7ld that leadership of 15 ain't looking so flash; I just had some success with this although the battle was pure wonderful garagehammer so it's not exactly proof of concept. If you are playing Tyranids or Knights of course it's a little different. Not sure what you'll do there really.

I'm also quite sure that this list will do diddly squat against the top tier tournament lists, but who cares! No one plays Night Lords to hit the top tables. We play them for the fluff and the sick batwing helmets!

Edit:

 TonyH122 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the.cobb wrote:
Meanwhile in garage-hammerland, life continued much as it had the past few editions, with some players scarcely even aware of the existence of chapter approved.

What does this even mean

It means that some things that should not have been forgotten were lost.

Zing! I was hoping someone would drop this.

Ecdain wrote:
I think that's his way of saying he doesn't care about CA, I wonder why he bothered to interject with it but meh, to each their own.

Nah I definitely care and have followed discussion here and elsewhere very closely. But the lads I play with most of the time only just brought the last 2 FAQs up last week. Which is fine as our group lives quite happily in garagehammerland, but I've been lurking here for a while soaking up the good stuff for those times my Night Lords wander out in search of more 'competitive' vistas.

If you are playing against knights and you are running a lot of plasma. Then just overcharge all the plasma and hope you don't roll 1s... lol At least against knights you will definitely be able to deep strike into double tap range because I don't think knight armies will have much screening.

Chaos has no reroll 1 to hit? Don't recall when I played against army with plasma that didn't have those so unless I could snipe character(assuming it wasn't built in ability) they would overheat only 1/36 times. For 3 plasma guys in rapid fire that's 6 turns.

Chaos Lords and Chaos Space Marine Daemon Princes grant rerolls of ones within 6 inches for friendly <legion> models.

So Chaos got this new Worldgobbler guy. He doesnt seem too fancy, but i noticed that he brings something new to the table.

He allows himself and raptors to reroll ALL hit rolls - not just failed ones.

Now I wonder if there is a way to abuse this?
Rerolling all the dice to produce some extra DTFE attacks? Maybe add in "first among traitors"?
How would I even mathhammer this to see if its worth it?

And are there any other interactions you guys could think of?

Abuse? No. Raptors ain't that good at CC.

However, with rumored cost of 120,he's decent, especially in an AL/NL combo army.

 Bird of prey wrote:
So Chaos got this new Worldgobbler guy. He doesnt seem too fancy, but i noticed that he brings something new to the table.

He allows himself and raptors to reroll ALL hit rolls - not just failed ones.

Now I wonder if there is a way to abuse this?
Rerolling all the dice to produce some extra DTFE attacks? Maybe add in "first among traitors"?
How would I even mathhammer this to see if its worth it?

And are there any other interactions you guys could think of?

Problem is raptors aren't actually that great in melee. Not sure if this is just hit rolls in melee fight phase or all hit rolls period. I suppose if its all hit rolls period, then its decent because it helps raptors shoot better. But I think its just hit rolls in combat. So, then yeah, that alone isn't gonna make raptors suddenly good in melee.

With the rumored points drop in chaos terminators, raptors are even worse now (if their points are the same). Chaos terminators are better in almost every way, but not that much more expensive than raptors after their point drop to 23 points base. I would pony up the additional points any day and deep strike in a squad of terminators over raptors.

Yeah, unicron’s rerolls only apply in melee.

I’ll probably add him to my black crusade collection, but his javelin will get more use than that gimmick.

I think that maybee assult marines and raptors might get a pricedrop, maybee then they make the cut.


Edit: I honestly think, that Gw would not not lower the price of "specialists" marines like their jumppack versions, especially when now terminators got their well deserved drop.
Secondly raptors get acess to the csm stratagems which are better then sm counterparts which potentially makes them usefull faster again than their jumppack loyalist cousins.

It’s a shame about raptors as I have been looking at 2 squads of 15 or 3 of 10, when looking at the data sheet I was surprised to see they have no access to power weapons apart from the champ, 1 special CCW per 3 I think would help them out, but then cost comes into play.

My plan is to have an army built around fast moving units and deep strike.

 Formosa wrote:
It’s a shame about raptors as I have been looking at 2 squads of 15 or 3 of 10, when looking at the data sheet I was surprised to see they have no access to power weapons apart from the champ, 1 special CCW per 3 I think would help them out, but then cost comes into play.

My plan is to have an army built around fast moving units and deep strike.

special CCW wouldn't help them at all honestly. Raptors are pretty garbage at CQC no matter how you build them because they suffer from GW's wisdom in giving all basic space marines a single attack base. that is a terrible platform to mount a power weapon on and they almost cannot afford to give up their chain swords for any other type of melee weapon. GW needs to overhaul the basic marine stat line and be willing give cqc troops like Raptors and Assault Marines two base attacks before Raptors would even be worth investing special weapons on. Raptors can really only do two things. They can deep strike plasma bomb and they can fear bomb. Night Lords Nurgle Raptors with Icon of Despair can cause -3 leadership just for being nearby, and a plasma bomb raptor squad is like a cheaper and worse obliterator squad.

As it stands, if you want melee jump troops we have to use Warp Talons. They are a lot better than Raptors at that job, seeing as they have more base attacks, dual claws aren't awful, they come with a 5++, and you can still get re-rolls to charge from allied khorne daemons through locus of rage.

Thanks akaen, this is the first army I will be collecting with 8h In mind rather than a legacy army I already own, so I’m looking for a different play style, normally I run mechanised forces, everything in a transport of some kind, for my new chaos I wanted something different, lots of monsters, dreads and assault marines (haven’t bought any since 3rd).

I know it’s not going to be tournament competitive by any stretch of the imagination though.

Only real options would be World Eaters variants (where you get that nice Strategem) or Alpha Legion variants (survivability). With the reroll charge banner you're kinda okay.

That's about all I got.

It's also silly he doesn't buff Warp Talons.

Does anyone use the minimum R&H battalion for 170 points? Is it just a waste of points in a list, even for the 5 CP?

Speaking of Worldclaimer; how do you usually run a jump pack chaos lord?

I though about equiping my Khorne lord with a pair of claws and give him a supportive relic such as the Brass Collar and use him to hop between units that need re-rolls and occasionally engage in a counter-charge.

Dactylartha wrote:
Does anyone use the minimum R&H battalion for 170 points? Is it just a waste of points in a list, even for the 5 CP?

Feels like more of a waste of a detachment slot considering how good some of the Chaos soup support detachments can be.

Does anyone use the minimum R&H battalion for 170 points? Is it just a waste of points in a list, even for the 5 CP?

Yes and no, do you run a specific strategy that requires a lot of CP and needs a mass off bodies and would like some indirect fire, go ahead. On competitive level though there is the problem that they contrary to daemons don't synergize well.

Basically, if you need a specific kind unit, (indirect fire, etc.) and or mass cp, feel free to take them, if not, don't bother and take the regular suspects like ahriman, magnus, mortarion etc.

Speaking of Worldclaimer; how do you usually run a jump pack chaos lord?

I though about equiping my Khorne lord with a pair of claws and give him a supportive relic such as the Brass Collar and use him to hop between units that need re-rolls and occasionally engage in a counter-charge.

If you run him specifically khornate you could run him as an AL lord, to get acess to the nice chainsword, and the double fighting stratagem, but that would be it.

Alternatively you could combine him as an IW jump pack metal boy , give him fleshmetal and unholy resistance warlord trait, i imagine a 2 + armor with what equates to basically a 6+fnp aswell as some other goodies could make him rather tanky and surprsingly fast?

Well, if you REALLY want to farm CP, they can pull off a brigade at 549 points....

Though at that point you have so many bodies on the field you might as well invest at giving them some guns, aaand now you are playing index level IG.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, if you REALLY want to farm CP, they can pull off a brigade at 549 points....

Though at that point you have so many bodies on the field you might as well invest at giving them some guns, aaand now you are playing index level IG.

Well actually you play not index lvl guard since A: SV6+ (wet paper armor) vs cardboard flak. B: heavy stubbers. C: chaos spawn. D: d6+2 ld averages out at 5.5 so ehh.

Not to mention that you get away cheaper then IG so there are more pts. to invest in heavy weapons, (mortars everyone?)

Edit: If you really want to invest in heavy weaponry (i suspect mortars mostly) you would exchange the cultists with militia units in order to get access to mortars. Secondly you would expand probably the HWT teams to 6 each with mortars instead of stubbers (or take stubbers for everything and play WW1) 6XMortars would be an additional 30 pts for the troop choices. 3x5 for the command squads wich get mortars so another 15. additional 9 pts for the remaining heavy support teams. to which you add another 24 each so 3x24 = 144pts

so ergo your mortared up brigade now owns 27 mortars and costs now 675 pts.

I mean that is a fairly impressive ammount of indirect fire, granted 24 of these are "just" bs 5+ but that is a s4 hit on average from the "militialike bodies" per mortar team.

If going all in with R&H is it worthwhile sprinkling Enforcers throughout? Their rules in the Imperial Armour index have them like slightly bloodier-minded commissars, but without the character keyword. Not sure if FAQs or chapter approved 2017 have changed them at all though.

the.cobb wrote:
If going all in with R&H is it worthwhile sprinkling Enforcers throughout? Their rules in the Imperial Armour index have them like slightly bloodier-minded commissars, but without the character keyword. Not sure if FAQs or chapter approved 2017 have changed them at all though.

Faq gave then the character keyword. Nope ca changed nothing beyond the malefic nerf and the 4 ppm renegade cultists.

Enforcers are only really necessary if you intend to run a mass assult list with the 50 man Mutant blobs.

Militia can compensate morale via vox systems and since you anyways want to run disciples for longrange AT you might pick command squads with command voxes to significantly boost their morale and make enforcers unnecessary.

If chapter approved ups Guardsmen and Cultists to 5ppm, renegade militia may emerge with a niche as 4ppm cheap bodies. I mean who cares about things like "armor" or "accuracy" when the main draw of the unit is to take up space. At the end of the day, this is why people take cultists after all.

It would definitely be nerfed in the next CA, but that goes to the underlying problem of people are just taking these units not for any sort of fighting ability but for the ability to take up space and clog up access to actual god units. So if you can get that for 40 points you do it, and don't care if the unit at 50 points is a marginally better fighting force.

 akaean wrote:
If chapter approved ups Guardsmen and Cultists to 5ppm, renegade militia may emerge with a niche as 4ppm cheap bodies. I mean who cares about things like "armor" or "accuracy" when the main draw of the unit is to take up space. At the end of the day, this is why people take cultists after all.

It would definitely be nerfed in the next CA, but that goes to the underlying problem of people are just taking these units not for any sort of fighting ability but for the ability to take up space and clog up access to actual god units. So if you can get that for 40 points you do it, and don't care if the unit at 50 points is a marginally better fighting force.

i do care, however i also play mono R&H ergo a nerf for my troops hurts me more then some soup cheap body spam.
Then again soup as a problem and constant fighting of the Symptoms rather then the real issue with soup from GW will just lead to more problems imo.

Imo brimstone horrors would just be better screening chaff than Renegades still. Cheaper and has a 6++, so AP doesnt matter.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Imo brimstone horrors would just be better screening chaff than Renegades still. Cheaper and has a 6++, so AP doesnt matter.

I looked at that, 3x10 brimstones with 2 bloodmasters is 202 points. I don't know if they're any more survivable than mutant rabble or cultists but it does open up my CD codex stratagems. Brimmies just do nothing except wait to die.

Do BF R&H troops get obsec?

Hilariously enough, Locus of Trickery is actually a huge buff for brims if you can get them into combat.

 slave.entity wrote:
Hilariously enough, Locus of Trickery is actually a huge buff for brims if you can get them into combat.

Swapping the bloodmasters for 2 changecasters adds 44 pts to the detachment, granted for some smite flexibility, but I don't think I'll want to keep those HQ near enough to my brimmies for the brimmies to even get the locus.

The TZ locus was fun on my Warp Talons and my Heldrake though, from a DP. It actually worked really well that one game.

I'd much prefer running Tzeentch heralds with them, both for that locus if you're facing melee, but just for the powers too. Gaze of Fates giving you a free reroll each turn and then also getting a smite is so much value for that extra 40ish. Plus, most 'effective' chaff clearing guns use AP to decimate hordes. You really can't do that with daemons. A 6 is a 6 with an invuln save,

Leaks for chapter approved are out!

CSM got quite a lot of love. I am glad. A hellbrute is even cheaper now. Same goes for a Defiler. This is especially because a lot of our weapon options all went down in cost. A missile launcher, twin lascannon Hellbrute is now barely 120 points total. It used to cost 150 points.

A defiler with scourge and reaper autocannon is now just under 150 points! @_@

Even forgefiends got love. Autocannon Forgefiend is now 148 points. It used to cost 177 points!

Chosen at now at 14 points which is like crazy. They are barely 1 point more than normal troop CSM, but with so much better weapon options and 2 attacks base.

And CSM's cheapest HQ is now the warpsmith. Even with all of his gear, he costs only 60 points.

Combi plasma are the same price as plasma guns - 11. Wow, so ,this means that a chaos termi with combi plasma and power sword is only 28+11+4 = 43 points.

Raptors are now 15 points. Combined with plasma guns at 11, and combi plasma also at 11. A squad of 5 raptors, 2 plasma guns, champ with combi plasma costs just 108 points, not bad for something that can come down from deep strike and pump out 6 plasma shots.

Havoc launchers are now just 6 points! A dakka Rhino is really a thing now, and quite affordable.

Btw, most named HQs went down in price. Kharn used to be 160, and now he is just 120!

And power fists are now 9 points instead of 12. So, if you are running a lot of zerker squads with power fist champs, those got cheaper too. Not to mention Landraiders got about 59 points cheaper.

My only gripe is I have the lord of skulls model. How come his points wasn't adjusted down. When you have a mighty castellan at just 600 points with the firepower it has, and a 4++ save, why should a lord of skulls with less firepower and a 5++ save be more expensive..

Kinda related. Chaos renegade knight with twin gratling and twin icarus autocannon just got cheaper because heavy flamer is now just 14 points while the twin icarus autocanon is now just 20 points. lol

The big winners are Butcher Cannon (-5pts) and Butcher Array (-20pts) equipped units.

Double Butcher Contemptor is now 138 (down from 163) - Base Contemptor is now 88.

Double Butcher Array Leviathan is now 289 (down from 329)

Double Butcher Decimator will also drop to 140 (down from 150).