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Well, bikes don't get a bolter. Look at what equipment they get. A bolt pistol, frag and krak, and then a combi-bolter on the bike.
But..up to 2 of them can bring an extra special weapon. Hello..flamer!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 09:53:15
Yeah I'm looking forwards to trying out some bikers. At first glance they looked to be too expensive now but when you think they now have 2 wounds and can fire all their weapons the possibilities open up. For 128pts you can take a unit of 3 with 2 flamers and a combi-flamer on the champ. With a 14" move they could zoom up to close range of some unfortunates and unleash 16 rapid fire bolter rounds (albeit 4 of them at -1 to hit) and 3D6 flamer auto hits which is going to do some damage to the right target. If you swap their pistols for chainswords they would also get 7 attacks in CC to finish of any dregs.
How are people's list building going? I want to just try a general take anything approach but can't seem to make anything work. I feel CSMs are pretty pricey in this edition.
buddha wrote: How are people's list building going? I want to just try a general take anything approach but can't seem to make anything work. I feel CSMs are pretty pricey in this edition.
I've had sort of the same problem. What I've done is gone back to basics and started with the psychology of the list and then work from there out into how it will deal with two archetypal lists: horde squishies and lotsa fatties, with some additional consideration given to overpowered psychic phases, flyers and alpha strike.
1. The best point to consider - you mostly aren't playing against Magnus and three knights, or 10 Taurox Primes and a horde of deep striking Scion Plasma Squads, or 10+ smites a turn. Thank god for normal club games or we'd never play. If you're a regular tournament goer you need to consider those WAAC lists, otherwise just ignore them and relax (only crazy people actually build and paint those lists )
2. Include enough volume dakka (or HtH0 that you won't be shocked and dismayed to be facing 100-150 conscripts or boyz (or more).
3. Include enough punchy firepower (and HtH) to be able to deal with 2-4 medium toughness vehicle type targets in the first two turns. Lots of lists are going to feature (for example) a couple of rhinos and a couple of Dreads fronting for a handful of hitty-killy HtH characters, all running full tilt up the middle of the board. You want a plan for lists like this.
4. What are you doing about deep strike type deployment (yours and your opponents). Do you have some bubble wrap to push his DS away from your support units? Conversely, if you have some (or a lot!) of DS what are you planning to do when the opponent does the same thing to you? Dakka and fast flanking units are the usual answers to the second question, generally.
5. If you go HtH heavy, do you have enough mobility to overcome high maneuver lists that want to slide around the edges of the board and shoot you to death?
Those are the sorts of things I'm thinking about for 8th. Answers will come through playtesting, but here are some of the ideas I've been work so far:
1. Winged Demon Princes are awesome. Mobility and HtH punch fills a real hole in a lot of Choas lists.
2. Heldrakes are probably the best psych-outs chaos can bring. 200 pts (at most) that a lot of guys will spend an inordinate amount of time trying to kill.
3. CSMs are midfield support at best in most armies (IMO). Fatties like Dreads and DPs are punchier and Rhinos are a better fast character screen. I don't have an issue with the value at 12pts, but I can't see myself driving them up the middle of the board into the teeth of the enemy.
Most of my lists so far are 2-3 demon princes and some HtH fatties (Helbrutes mostly) for driving up-board. sometimes with Berserkers, sometimes with Demons (or both). Empty RhInos are super useful in this role too. Then you add some long range support - Havoks, Predators, etc. Then I add some speed, either via DS, Summoning, or just fastness. Seekers are wicked fast. Termies in DS are a good psychological weapon before they even hit the board. Stir in one Heldrake for distraction and harassment and I'm mostly there. Lots of variations on that theme obviously. I've been thinking a lot about the usefulness of Quicksilver Quickness to alter a lot of opponents battle plans.
So, there you go, a long rambling account of my current thoughts about CSM list building and the direction of the meta. Hope something in there helps.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
Can't put deamons in rhinos, they do not have the legion keyword.
My World Eaters list is currently revolving around two main forces:
Force 1 - 30 bloodletters, flying CSMdp, skulltaker, herald or two
Force 2 - 2 units of 8 berzerkers in rhinos, kharn, two apostles, five chaos spawn, melee helbrute
The bloodletter blob plus HQs is unignorable because if those bloodletters get to something they will tear it to pieces. If you try and deep strike and hit it, the prince will pop out and blow you away. If you whittle down the unit enough that the heralds and skulltaker come into play, I will already be in the middle of the board.
The chaos spawn plus rhinos of berzerkers plus kharn plus apostles is also something you cannot ignore. Spawn have the ability to really cause havoc and the zerkers are, well, zerkers. Can't forget about punchy punchy helbrute.
I'm in the process of making sure this all fits. Might try and squeeze in a heldrake for additional tomfoolery.
Who's putting demons in rhinos? I'm not. Most lists I'm actually running them empty. A little dakka and overwatch removal is the goal there. Or full of berserkers, also tasty.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
buddha wrote: How are people's list building going? I want to just try a general take anything approach but can't seem to make anything work. I feel CSMs are pretty pricey in this edition.
2. Heldrakes are probably the best psych-outs chaos can bring. 200 pts (at most) that a lot of guys will spend an inordinate amount of time trying to kill.
A Heldrake will only ever be under 200 points if it's loaded with a Hades Autocannon, which I hear under-performs dramatically compared to the Baleflamer (if you moved, which you probably will, the AC only hits on 5+ before any other modifiers; OUCH!). The Baleflamer pushes it up to 215 points, but improves it's ability to hit things by quite a bit, which is how I'm loading mine so that it can shoot a soft unit, then charge a high toughness model with the claws, fall back next turn, rinse-repeat. Little pricier but I feel is more versatile and more likely to hit something.
I was considering throwing in a 5xCombi-flamer/Power Axe Terminator unit (235 points) to deepstrike next to a vehicle that was recently opened up by a Heldrake/Daemon Prince to burn up whatever the contents were inside (or just to drop them next a blob of squishies and light em up), but I'm having a hard time finding the rules on whether they can advance (almost always putting them within flamer reach, but not being able to use the bolter portion of their weapon; but I don't think they can advance the turn they DS)) the turn they teleport in. If they can't advance, I was also thinking of dropping a terminator sorceror (approximately 167 points) next to them to attempt Warptime, but if they can advance I'm not sure I'm willing to pay the additional 167 points to bring him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 20:39:25
They seem okay, but they also have only thougness 3 like cultists, but don't run away.
Think troups of 10 are better than blobs of more than 10, as they don't improve their combatskills by mutch.
How many do think will be good in an army? 20 or more?
They cap at 20, which kinda makes them pretty wierd. I would still consider them for themed lists. I play an annual Typhus and Zombies vs Azrael and Dark Angels game and I have alot of fun just creating tarpits and speed bumps the whole way, while daemon princes do the heavy lifting. But the list itself has one trick and it gets old fast. Zombies have no real offensive or defensive output. You just have to get used to that idea. They will die, die, and die again.
But me personally, I've always loved pitting crap cultists or zombies or solo spawn against enemy uber units and fancy deathstars just to waste time, so i will probably still take a few units.
Heralds of slaanesh, seekers and hellflayers don't have the Daemonette keyword, despite being Daemonettes :/
While Daemonettes, exalted seeker chariots, seeker chariots and the Masque do have the Daemonette keyword.
This seems weird since in age of sigmar (I know different game) all of the above have the Daemonette keyword, also the other gods lesser daemons units including the heralds do have there respective keyword, so heralds of khorne and bloodcrusher are bloodletters for an example, this seems like an oversight.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/14 01:25:43
Darksider wrote: What do you think of Poxwalkers?
.... don't run away.
That's their value right there, and what you pay the points for (and the FNP).
For 6 ppm, you don't need to pay for a commissar, nor do you need to worry about snipers. The cheapest commissar is 30 points to support a 50 man blob.
The disgustingly resilient means they are effectively 4ppm for just purposes of being a body to soak up fire.
So.....poxwalkers don't do squat for dealing damage, but for camping an objective they are pretty good -- arguably better than guard.
TBH I'm just waiting to see what comes out with the FW Indices...I need to know what An'ggrath does...how many Dreadclaw Drop Pods I'll be using for my Zerkers....yeah that's pretty much it lol. But until I know those things, the only thing I know for pretty much certain is that Magnus will be in my list.
luke1705 wrote: TBH I'm just waiting to see what comes out with the FW Indices...I need to know what An'ggrath does...how many Dreadclaw Drop Pods I'll be using for my Zerkers....yeah that's pretty much it lol. But until I know those things, the only thing I know for pretty much certain is that Magnus will be in my list.
Khorne please forgive me.
I want to know what Zaraknel and a warhound titan does, I really want to unleash my god machine upon the enemies of the dark prince.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 04:22:58
Chaos Land Raider (1) - 356pts
1 Chaos Land Raider: Twin heavy bolter,2 Twin lascannons
Maulerfiend (1) - 181pts
1 Maulerfiend: Maulerfiend fists,Two magma cutters
Maulerfiend (1) - 181pts
1 Maulerfiend: Maulerfiend fists,Two magma cutters
Looks like a fun list, but who is going to ride in the Land Raider? I would either drop the raider or drop the rhinos and let them pile into the clown raider.
Also, I have been looking over these rules pretty diligently for the past week and have just now realized that The warp bolter is a thing. How have I missed this? It's not that great or anything, it just boggles my mind that somehow I have looked at the DP rules probably 15 times and somehow glanced over it. My next daemon prince is getting a Hellboy gun!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 04:23:17
I'm glad because my old Daemon Prince model has a gun modeled in the fricken' arm. And it's fairly cheap. I figured I'd put the Termies in the Land Raider though. I'm a sucker for rolling thunder type lists.
My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba Order of Saint Pan Thera
I would personally get rid of two rhinos then and take something with more firepower. Those two footsloggers can hold back objectives, the lazy grunts. Plus, it looks like in this edition you really are going to want backfield placeholders to stop enemy reserves and preserve the 9" bubble. Those two lazy units actually serve a purpose, but don't tell them that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 05:21:41
So there's no reason to take CSMs over Havocs right? 10 Havocs with 4 Heavy Bolters make a cheap dakka objective / midfield camper unit.
Cultists look useful but how the hell do we stop Tyranid (deep striking) multi charges / pile ins (6" for Hormas) dragging everything into combat? Do we got with 6x10 man or 3x20 man? Every game I've had against Nids I end up getting most of my army charged & tied up, I'm crap & still learning the game but with objectives it's not easy to avoid it... any tips?
Also, how good are Helbrutes with Fist, H.Flamer & Scourge! A ton of attacks & support Cultists/CSMs nicely. Heldrakes are good too, love the fact they can fall back & keep shooting.
buddha wrote: How are people's list building going? I want to just try a general take anything approach but can't seem to make anything work. I feel CSMs are pretty pricey in this edition.
I've had sort of the same problem. What I've done is gone back to basics and started with the psychology of the list and then work from there out into how it will deal with two archetypal lists: horde squishies and lotsa fatties, with some additional consideration given to overpowered psychic phases, flyers and alpha strike.
1. The best point to consider - you mostly aren't playing against Magnus and three knights, or 10 Taurox Primes and a horde of deep striking Scion Plasma Squads, or 10+ smites a turn. Thank god for normal club games or we'd never play. If you're a regular tournament goer you need to consider those WAAC lists, otherwise just ignore them and relax (only crazy people actually build and paint those lists )
2. Include enough volume dakka (or HtH0 that you won't be shocked and dismayed to be facing 100-150 conscripts or boyz (or more).
3. Include enough punchy firepower (and HtH) to be able to deal with 2-4 medium toughness vehicle type targets in the first two turns. Lots of lists are going to feature (for example) a couple of rhinos and a couple of Dreads fronting for a handful of hitty-killy HtH characters, all running full tilt up the middle of the board. You want a plan for lists like this.
4. What are you doing about deep strike type deployment (yours and your opponents). Do you have some bubble wrap to push his DS away from your support units? Conversely, if you have some (or a lot!) of DS what are you planning to do when the opponent does the same thing to you? Dakka and fast flanking units are the usual answers to the second question, generally.
5. If you go HtH heavy, do you have enough mobility to overcome high maneuver lists that want to slide around the edges of the board and shoot you to death?
Those are the sorts of things I'm thinking about for 8th. Answers will come through playtesting, but here are some of the ideas I've been work so far:
1. Winged Demon Princes are awesome. Mobility and HtH punch fills a real hole in a lot of Choas lists.
2. Heldrakes are probably the best psych-outs chaos can bring. 200 pts (at most) that a lot of guys will spend an inordinate amount of time trying to kill.
3. CSMs are midfield support at best in most armies (IMO). Fatties like Dreads and DPs are punchier and Rhinos are a better fast character screen. I don't have an issue with the value at 12pts, but I can't see myself driving them up the middle of the board into the teeth of the enemy.
Most of my lists so far are 2-3 demon princes and some HtH fatties (Helbrutes mostly) for driving up-board. sometimes with Berserkers, sometimes with Demons (or both). Empty RhInos are super useful in this role too. Then you add some long range support - Havoks, Predators, etc. Then I add some speed, either via DS, Summoning, or just fastness. Seekers are wicked fast. Termies in DS are a good psychological weapon before they even hit the board. Stir in one Heldrake for distraction and harassment and I'm mostly there. Lots of variations on that theme obviously. I've been thinking a lot about the usefulness of Quicksilver Quickness to alter a lot of opponents battle plans.
So, there you go, a long rambling account of my current thoughts about CSM list building and the direction of the meta. Hope something in there helps.
No that's a lot of help thanks. Now I just need to decide what attribute of the army I want to focus on ....
Here's for a 'zerker Champion (without factoring his two fights per phase, so if the champ survives to the end of the phase you may safely double all numbers):
Spoiler:
For your viewing pleasure, now with 100% more chainaxe. Notice that the Chainaxe competes pretty well with the Power Maul and other weapons for damage output in certain situations due to how Toughness works now. It appears -AP should be a primary factor when looking at weapon options.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 16:38:06
Latro_ wrote: Anything shooty with the daemon keyword might be nice, then you can use daemon KW buffs on them
heldrakes, defilers, forgefiends (obilts although they suck)
Maybe even a Lord of Skulls. With the price reduction they might actually be okay in 8th.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
Children of Stirba 
Order of Saint Pan Thera 
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~1200 | Tyranids: 
~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: 