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CSM ones are still better if you are running mixed lists due to buffing legion and daemons.

And warptalons now only have 2 attacks.

Loopstah wrote:
CSM ones are still better if you are running mixed lists due to buffing legion and daemons.

Unless you want the Daemon mark buffs, the Khorne DP with +1S and +1A is a monster for killing big things like Morkanaughts, Knights, etc. (basically anything with T8)

2xKhorne DP VS Bloodthirster (360pts VS 340pts)

Khorne DP:
9 attacks each BS2+ , re-rolling to hit, at S9 AP-2 D2

Bloodthirster:
6 attacks BS2+ at S11 AP-4 Dd6

VS an Imperial Knight

Khorne DPs:
15.6 wounds on the Knight (for comparison two CSM Khorne DP do 10.4 wounds)

Bloodthirster:
11.7 wounds on the Knight


Of course, a Khorne DP + a Bloodthirster are even better against a knight because of the re-roll aura:
21 wounds on the Knight

I am personally running a double team of a Khorne DP and a WoK Bloodthirster in my 2000pt list (they are Fluffy and Chuckles respectively).

 mrhappyface wrote:
- Berzerkers (I don't have to tell you this) are THE best combat unit in the game (besides characters). Kit them out with Chainaxes, Chainswords and a Power fist on the Champion then stick them in a rhino.
- Khan, for his points? Eh, his strength is a bit dissapointing for his points, take an apostle instead.

The FAQ states:

Q. If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the
Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight
phase do they fight for the second time?

A. Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate
unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both
times before any units that did not charge. If the unit
did not charge this turn, then, after all units that did
charge have fought, you can select this unit to fight with,
then your opponent can select a unit to fight with, then
you can select your unit to fight with for the second
time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit’s
opportunities to fight – unless of course there are no
other eligible units to select to fight with).

Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence
of who fights first (such as the Counter-Offensive
Stratagem, or the Slaanesh Daemon Quicksilver Reflexes
ability) may be used to fight in between the unit’s first
and second ‘fight’.

Kharn and Berzerkers both just got one of the biggest buffs ever. I was playing it that they get one charge attacks and one fight attacks, totaling two. However, they get BOTH their fight phases IN THE INITIAL CHARGERS FIGHT PHASE TIME! This FORCES your opponent to either use a counter-attack stratagem or lose whatever it is you just charged. This is...HUGE!

They will turn any unit they hit into a fine red mist. The problem is that now they are left in the open during the next shooting attack. Make sure you have units to guard them or run distraction

So are the Daemonic Ritual rules expanded upon in the full rulebook or something? I've seen multiple people saying you have to pay for your "summons" in points ahead of time like in Age of Sigmar, yet the index says nothing of the sort.

 l0k1 wrote:
They will turn any unit they hit into a fine red mist. The problem is that now they are left in the open during the next shooting attack. Make sure you have units to guard them or run distraction

You need to setup one huge assault using everything in your army pretty much. You can't let one or two things go in alone, everything had to move in together so your opponent is overwhelmed.

zend wrote:
So are the Daemonic Ritual rules expanded upon in the full rulebook or something? I've seen multiple people saying you have to pay for your "summons" in points ahead of time like in Age of Sigmar, yet the index says nothing of the sort.

Summons are treated as reinforcements, which the BRB says you have to pay for.

Initial game of 8th last friday went very well

chaos lord
daemon prince of slaanesh with talons and wings

3x 10 noise marines
8 sound guns
2 blastmasters
icon, doom sirens and power sword on captain

chaos vindi
1 rhino
1 deredeo with the malignos saker
1 contemptor with butcher canon in a dreadclaw pod


Opinions
New noise marines are really fun, ended up doing more shooting on enemy turns than my own. Suprised how decent they are in close combat for how much dakka they put out. I will need more testing but they felt too good in combat for a shooty squad, but having only fought vanilla marines my opinion may change after facing more opponents.

The ignoring cover helped them clear out termies and scouts hiding in ruins. Overall really like them, might drop the icons and doom sirens to save points though as the squads run very expensive.

Chaos Deredeo was strong fire support working as anti tank, wasnt as impressed with the vindicator, only managing 1-2 wounds here and there. No opinion on contemptor as it turned up and got plasma'd to death.

Chaos lord just bullied a few small squads, daemon prince got into a fight vs 3 squads and did fairly well, took down a character and half a squad before dying.

Arachnofiend wrote:

zend wrote:
So are the Daemonic Ritual rules expanded upon in the full rulebook or something? I've seen multiple people saying you have to pay for your "summons" in points ahead of time like in Age of Sigmar, yet the index says nothing of the sort.

Summons are treated as reinforcements, which the BRB says you have to pay for.

But the Ritual rules only mention them as being treated as reinforcements for the purpose of putting them on the table AFTER you've summoned them. Meaning they can't move that turn, and they suffer penalties for firing weapons. It doesn't say that your selection is limited to what you've paid for and have sitting in reserves. That's why I asked if there is specific clarification on summoning in the rulebook. It makes no sense whatsoever for you to have to roll to see how high of a Power Rating you can summon if you've already paid for them in points. It would be a glorified deepstrike that is even more restrictive in terms of placement, runs the risk of killing your character, and nothing more.

zend wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

zend wrote:
So are the Daemonic Ritual rules expanded upon in the full rulebook or something? I've seen multiple people saying you have to pay for your "summons" in points ahead of time like in Age of Sigmar, yet the index says nothing of the sort.

Summons are treated as reinforcements, which the BRB says you have to pay for.

But the Ritual rules only mention them as being treated as reinforcements for the purpose of putting them on the table AFTER you've summoned them. Meaning they can't move that turn, and they suffer penalties for firing weapons. It doesn't say that your selection is limited to what you've paid for and have sitting in reserves. That's why I asked if there is specific clarification on summoning in the rulebook. It makes no sense whatsoever for you to have to roll to see how high of a Power Rating you can summon if you've already paid for them in points. It would be a glorified deepstrike that is even more restrictive in terms of placement, runs the risk of killing your character, and nothing more.

Page 214 of the rulebook gives the rules for setting aside reinforcement points in matched play and explicitly points out daemon summoning as one of the types of reinforcements you would need to pay for. Probably not a good idea to debate rules unless you have read the rulebook yet.

The fact that summoning is a glorified deep strike really isn't that bad, as being able to deep strike units that can't normally do so is a fairly potent ability. I've been using it a lot to get Exalted Flamers safely in position to do their thing with great success and I'm sure a more skilled player can come up with better tricks than that.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
- Berzerkers (I don't have to tell you this) are THE best combat unit in the game (besides characters). Kit them out with Chainaxes, Chainswords and a Power fist on the Champion then stick them in a rhino.
- Khan, for his points? Eh, his strength is a bit dissapointing for his points, take an apostle instead.

The FAQ states:

Q. If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the
Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight
phase do they fight for the second time?

A. Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate
unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both
times before any units that did not charge. If the unit
did not charge this turn, then, after all units that did
charge have fought, you can select this unit to fight with,
then your opponent can select a unit to fight with, then
you can select your unit to fight with for the second
time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit’s
opportunities to fight – unless of course there are no
other eligible units to select to fight with).

Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence
of who fights first (such as the Counter-Offensive
Stratagem, or the Slaanesh Daemon Quicksilver Reflexes
ability) may be used to fight in between the unit’s first
and second ‘fight’.

Kharn and Berzerkers both just got one of the biggest buffs ever. I was playing it that they get one charge attacks and one fight attacks, totaling two. However, they get BOTH their fight phases IN THE INITIAL CHARGERS FIGHT PHASE TIME! This FORCES your opponent to either use a counter-attack stratagem or lose whatever it is you just charged. This is...HUGE!

Jesus Christ! I was playing it the same as you! If only I had read the FAQ before I played yesterday I'd have been steamrolling Orks left and right! Somebody pinch me! GW can't be giving this much love to a chaos cc unit!

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

zend wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

zend wrote:
So are the Daemonic Ritual rules expanded upon in the full rulebook or something? I've seen multiple people saying you have to pay for your "summons" in points ahead of time like in Age of Sigmar, yet the index says nothing of the sort.

Summons are treated as reinforcements, which the BRB says you have to pay for.

But the Ritual rules only mention them as being treated as reinforcements for the purpose of putting them on the table AFTER you've summoned them. Meaning they can't move that turn, and they suffer penalties for firing weapons. It doesn't say that your selection is limited to what you've paid for and have sitting in reserves. That's why I asked if there is specific clarification on summoning in the rulebook. It makes no sense whatsoever for you to have to roll to see how high of a Power Rating you can summon if you've already paid for them in points. It would be a glorified deepstrike that is even more restrictive in terms of placement, runs the risk of killing your character, and nothing more.

Page 214 of the rulebook gives the rules for setting aside reinforcement points in matched play and explicitly points out daemon summoning as one of the types of reinforcements you would need to pay for. Probably not a good idea to debate rules unless you have read the rulebook yet.

I asked for verification for something I heard, and pointed out things I do know that make it confusing as gak. Not everyone has the full Rulebook yet. Thanks for actually answering my question.

I think I am going to have Aetaos, Magnus, Decimators, Changeling and other units to fill in the gaps (namely anything that can deal with hordes).

I was mathhammering Chaos Havocs, as I was interested in which loadout is most all around useful. Now, the short, average answer is Missile Launcher because it can be used to some effect against hordes and vehicles.

But the results are complicated. Also I find mathhammering 8th edition to be a lot more tedious process due to the Damage and AP being modifier.

Here are some of the results, everything is calculated as 4 heavy weapons shooting stationary. Moving and shooting will lessen the odds of course. Moving and shooting with re-roll 1s aura is ok actually. Shooting stationary with re-roll aura is excellent. Either unsaved wounds or unsaved Damage is given:

Unsaved wounds:

Against Hordes T3 Sv 5+:
H. Bolter 4.4
Autocannon 3.7
Missile Launcher Frag 4.1

Against Hordes T4 Sv 5+:
H. Bolter 4.4
Autocannon 3.0
Missile Launcher Frag 3.1

Unsaved Damage:

Against Vehicle T6 Sv 3+
Heavy Bolter 1.3
Autocannon 2.7
Missile Launcher Krak 4.1
Lascannon 5.2

Against Vehicle T7 Sv 3+
Heavy Bolter 1.3
Autocannon 2.7
Missile Launcher Krak 4.1 (Unsaved wounds 1.2)
Lascannon 5.2 (Unsaved Wounds 1.5)

Against Vehicle T8 Sv 3+
Heavy Bolter 1.3
Autocannon 1.8
Missile Launcher Krak 3.1 (Unsaved wounds 0.9)
Lascannon 5.2 (Unsaved wounds 1.5)

Then there are a lot of the intermediate multiwound Toughness but high Sv models, such as bikers on Astartes or windriders on Aeldari, which are most efficiently taken out by Autocannons, but not by far.

Unsaved Wounds
Against T4 Sv 3+ W2:
Heavy Bolter 2,7 (1 removed model, 2nd removal not very likely)
Autocannon 1,8 (1 removed model, 2nd removal quite likely)
Missile Launcher Krak 1,5 (1 removed model, possibility for 2, but you can also get very unlucky in damage and remove non)
Lascannon 1.8 (1 removed model, 2nd removal quite likely, but you can also get very unlucky in damage and remove non)

Also as of note:
Due to low amount of shooting weapons, frag grenade m. launcher will have 4x 1D6 shots which can net your shots from 4 to 24, averaging to 14.
Same repeats with Krak M. Launcher and Lascannon which both do 1D6 damage by single successful unsaved wound. Because of the low amount of average generated unsaved wounds, 4 lascannons can inflict even 12 D and more per turn, but this is very unlikely. The average is 5.2, but as this comes from very low amount of shots it can fluctuate easily from 0 to 12, with most likely values being within 1-6.

All in all, I would recommend using Missile Launchers as they are most multipurpose heavy weapon available. In case you play against pure horde army, autocannon is not optimal, and lascannon certainly is not optimal. Against many armored targets Lascannon is superb, but not superb enough compared to krak M. Launcher.

I've been looking at Renegade Ogryn Brutes to sit inside my Mutant Rabble blob and be a counter-assault slash primary assault unit. Because of their statline and their cost, they directly compete with Chaos Spawn for the same role but give up some defense for more offense. LET'S DIVE RIGHT IN!

Chaos Spawn: While expensive at 33 points per model, Chaos Spawn are one of the most powerful tools Chaos has access to. Spawn move slightly faster than a Marine (7 inches), are toughness 5, and have 4 wounds each. This makes Chaos Spawn one of the best bullet catchers for your HQ choice because the damn things won't go down easy. They aren't slouches in combat either: each unit of Spawn get D6 attacks and a roll on the Mutated Beyond Reason table, potentially giving those attacks AP-4, +2 attacks, or rerolling failed wounds. Their weapon is already AP-2 and 2 damage which makes them hit like trucks. They're whiff every so often due to WS4+, however. Mostly you want them to catch bullets and, if something gets close, soak up overwatch while being decent in close combat. Their variable attacks and mutation table makes them unreliable in melee and we have way better melee units anyways. Oh they also have leadership 9, so morale is pretty much ignored up to units of 4, but you generally don't need more than 4 as an escort regardless.

Renegade Ogryn Brutes: Must be taken in units of three, so base cost comes out to 93 points, or 31 points per model. 2 points cheaper per model than Spawn. They also have one less wound than spawn, move 1 inch less, and have base leadership 6. They come with Ogryn Weapons, which are +1S (putting them at 6) AP-1 and 2 damage. You can upgrade one Brute into a Berserker Boss for 10 points (cost of his weapon), which gives him +1W, +1A, and +1LD. He also gets the Ogryn Power Drill, a S10 AP-3 D3 damage weapon that rerolls wounds against vehicles. With these differences, it is clear that Chaos Spawn are a far hardier escort than Brutes, however there are several things that make it clear Brutes aren't meant for escort duty. First, Brutes get 3A, with the Boss getting 4A. Second, they have an ability called Avalanche of Muscle which adds +1A on the turn they charged. Finally, their last ability is Combat Stimms: roll a D6, on a 1 one Brute is dead, on a 2-5 the unit gains +1A, on a 6 they gain +D3 attacks. On average a unit of charging Brutes will have 5 attacks, with the Boss getting 6, for a total of 16 attacks. Three Chaos Spawn will average 10-11 attacks on the charge, with a chance for far less or far more. The final ingredient is Brute's WS3+, allowing them to hit far more often than Spawn in close combat. Oh, they also get Frag Grenades which is a nice little cherry on top.

The differences between thee two units clearly outlines their purposes: Renegade Ogryn Brutes are for when you need to counter-assault or have a more close combat focused army with multiple threats charging up towards your opponent, meanwhile Chaos Spawn are a more defensive, HQ focused unit meant to catch bullets and not really dish out damage. HOWEVER, and I haven't mathhammered this at all, but Chaos Spawn have a far greater damage potential than Brutes while Brutes will be far more consistent in their damage. Personally I love the Brute model and was digging into them to see if they were any good. As long as you have multiple threats, they have a pretty good chance of getting into combat and dishing out their average, which again is 16 attacks. For a three model unit this is pretty absurd. Bloodcrushers are the only other Khorne Chaos unit that dishes out close to that many attacks on the charge, at 13 attacks. Bloodcrushers will actually do far more damage than Brutes due to AP-3, but that's a discussion for another day.

 andysonic1 wrote:
As long as you have multiple threats, they have a pretty good chance of getting into combat and dishing out their average, which again is 16 attacks. For a three model unit this is pretty absurd. Bloodcrushers are the only other Khorne Chaos unit that dishes out close to that many attacks on the charge.

Except for Berzerkers which do twice as many attacks on the charge at S5-6 AP0--1.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
As long as you have multiple threats, they have a pretty good chance of getting into combat and dishing out their average, which again is 16 attacks. For a three model unit this is pretty absurd. Bloodcrushers are the only other Khorne Chaos unit that dishes out close to that many attacks on the charge.

Except for Berzerkers which do twice as many attacks on the charge at S5-6 AP0--1.

Yes yes, Berserkers are in a league of their own due to the new FAQ making them THE best CC unit Chaos has access to, I think at this point that is obvious enough that we can just auto include them and start looking at other units as well.

 andysonic1 wrote:
start looking at other units as well.

No! Only Zerkers! Zerker hordes everywhere! Blood for the blood God!

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
start looking at other units as well.

No! Only Zerkers! Zerker hordes everywhere! Blood for the blood God!

Somebody get the chains we got another one Zerking out over here!

 andysonic1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
start looking at other units as well.

No! Only Zerkers! Zerker hordes everywhere! Blood for the blood God!

Somebody get the chains we got another one Zerking out over here!

Hey guys,


I really like the buff to Zerkers. Pity I don't own any yet :*(

Will soon be fixed!

Anyway...

So today.
I drank lots of Cider (yes) and attempted to add in re-rolling 1's and re-rolling all misses/wounds to my formulas.

I would appreciate if someone could check it over, otherwise it will wait until tomorrow when I am more capable.

Formula -

=if($O$2="Y",((1/6)*D11)+D11,if($O$5="Y",((((-1+F11)/6)*D11)+D11),D11))*((7-F11)/6)*if($O$3="Y",(((1/6)*((7-I11)/6))+((7-I11)/6)),if($O$6="Y",((((-1+I11)/6)*((7-I11)/6))+((7-I11)/6)),((7-I11)/6))) * L11 * C11

Reference : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fIYAu1UgDyxMCrnHYUoIdviPottSyRSQGTSgmsNxHfs/edit#gid=2084351568

Much appreciated!

Chris


Edit :

Sorry - meant to add.

Re-rolls only added to Abaddon's sheet!
No point rolling out unless its right

mcsheehy wrote:
Hey guys,


I really like the buff to Zerkers. Pity I don't own any yet :*(

Will soon be fixed!

Anyway...

So today.
I drank lots of Cider (yes) and attempted to add in re-rolling 1's and re-rolling all misses/wounds to my formulas.

I would appreciate if someone could check it over, otherwise it will wait until tomorrow when I am more capable.

Formula -

=if($O$2="Y",((1/6)*D11)+D11,if($O$5="Y",((((-1+F11)/6)*D11)+D11),D11))*((7-F11)/6)*if($O$3="Y",(((1/6)*((7-I11)/6))+((7-I11)/6)),if($O$6="Y",((((-1+I11)/6)*((7-I11)/6))+((7-I11)/6)),((7-I11)/6))) * L11 * C11

Reference : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fIYAu1UgDyxMCrnHYUoIdviPottSyRSQGTSgmsNxHfs/edit#gid=2084351568

Much appreciated!

Chris

I would help you with the code their but I too have been at the cider (and a couple of pints of lager too). It looks long and complicated so that usually means it's fine.

Thanks Mrhappyface.

I've done some testing. With paper and a pen.
Through Beer/Cider goggles it looks A'OK!

Further testing will be done.

What models do people want to see added? Do you have a list Mrhappy?

Chris

Edit -

Re-rolls added to all existing sheets.

Just dawned on me...

Pts values gotta be removed :(

Well, that skews the efficiency :(

So boys and girls, what are our tools for dealing with knights? My short list includes:

Cereberus (but it looks dumb)
Leviathans
Kharybdis (see above)
Another knight/scorpion and hope you get luckier
Xiphons (maybe??)
Spartan (8 lascannon shots)


Doritos don't seem great for that role (better for popping transports). Laspreds and havocs are too 2 dimensional imo. Been staring at our indeces for the last two hours just pulling a blank.

Bring something bigger than a knight. Try Lord of skulls. I have tried it out. In 8th ed, its quite good. 28 wounds, T8, 5++ and it auto regens 1 wound each turn. The more hurt it gets, the more attacks it gets.

I had an imperial warden knight charge my Lord of skulls (who was already injured from shooting). The Warden got chopped to pieces.

This is if you refuse to try Predator Tanks or Havocs though. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with these two also.

Combimelta or plasma termis with a lord for plasma termis? Back them up with lascannons and maybe even throw some chainfists for maximum antiarmour punch?

Rapier with c beam can ne Nice aswell or contemptor with them if You ca ne at long range From the Knight 3d3 dommage each is reliable.

Aetaos'rau'keres: 74% chance of killing a knight in one turn of combat if it is at full wounds, but chances are you smited it and shot at it before you struck you engaged it, in which case, you would likely only have a 7% chance of not killing a knight in one turn.