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Yup. It does make perfect sense. Whatever you buy from forgeworld they are probably just ordering it to be delivered for you. Unless you allow them to mark up those outrageous prices even more so that they can earn something...

 labmouse42 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'll never understand stores that do this.

Think like a store owner.
Someone is using models they did not buy from your store to give themselves a competitive advantage over the people who did buy their stuff at their store.
It makes business sense to not allow FW at your FLGs. It does not encourage people to use FW models, meaning people are more likely to give you money than FW.

You might disagree with this logic -- but as a business owner it can make perfect sense.

By this logic if I bring an army to the store I had purchased from an online retailer such as FrontlineGaming, it would mean I am not welcomed to play at the local store. That is certainly short sighted of any business as it would mean I'll just go to another store to purchase hobby accessories such as paints which have higher turnover lifespan than models. Furthermore I would discourage anyone from attending said store for that reason.

Anyway, let's get back to talking about tactics.

What's our answer to mass flyer armies? Like 3 storm ravens or 6 vendettas armies? Just mass flying DPs?

I had one game against the 3 storm raven list where I used 10 termis all with combi melta with Abbadon. Had some success. All the storm ravens died in the end. But he still won because it was relic, and his shooting killed all the terminators and Abaddon and I had nothing else that could snatch back the Relic from his Mephiston. :(

So, I suppose one solution could be to have terminators with combi meltas with Abbadon in support.


When I tried out another list with two flying DPs and a greater unclean one (with some shooting) against the same triple Storm Raven list I didn't have as much success. His Storm ravens focused and took down the two flying DPs and the GUO couldn't attack them. After that, they could fly around and shoot everything with impunity.

Possibly greater daemons that can fly instead of the guo? Heldrakes are a poor tool for anti air because flying units can disengage and shoot..

Fan67 wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
How's Skarbrand I'm going to be getting him soon in a lot and was curious if he's worth it.

Well... if you are up to playing 1000 points game and below, playing on 2x2 foot table and your opponent lacks lascannon bits, he is beast then.

 luke1705 wrote:

I mean....like I don't really do flyers but I'm about ready to do 1 of each of these bad boys. They look SICK

Be careful, they are pain PAIN to build up.
Buy some greenstuff and prepare hairdryer and a pot of hot water.

Just in case.

It may be easier (and cheaper!) to convert a stormraven instead

Debilitate wrote:
Possibly greater daemons that can fly instead of the guo? Heldrakes are a poor tool for anti air because flying units can disengage and shoot..

Well, 4 attacks hitting on 2s at S7 AP-2 Dd3 can hurt depending on the flyer. SM flyers won't be too bothered but Ork, Eldar and Tau flyers will be a bit concerned.

But for the most part, your right, Bloodthirsters and their equivilent are the way to go: 7x S11 AP-4 Dd6 hitting on 2s? (Remember to have a DP tag teaming with him so he's re-rolling 1s)

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Here's my big question:

After 20 or so pages of discussion, has any consensus been reached as to whether Chaos Space Marines is an army worth playing in 8th Edition? Is it competitive on the tabletop with the right builds and tactics? Is the IA book a must-buy for playing CSM like it was before the Traitor Legion books?

Depends on your definition of a CSM army.
I don't think taking huge amounts of guys in 3+ Armor is useful. There are some solid csm choices but for competitive games it makes more sense to look at the whole chaos faction to build an army.

3rdlegion wrote:
By this logic if I bring an army to the store I had purchased from an online retailer such as FrontlineGaming, it would mean I am not welcomed to play at the local store. That is certainly short sighted of any business as it would mean I'll just go to another store to purchase hobby accessories such as paints which have higher turnover lifespan than models. Furthermore I would discourage anyone from attending said store for that reason.

You completely missed the point.
You can buy the non-FW models at the FLGS. If you opponent has models that trounce you, you might want to buy them -- and conveniently enough they are on the shelf. FW models are not.

Some people, like yourself will boycott a store because they do not allow FW. That is completely acceptable. A business owner makes the decisions to the best of their ability (usually).

 labmouse42 wrote:
Think like a store owner.
Someone is using models they did not buy from your store to give themselves a competitive advantage over the people who did buy their stuff at their store.
It makes business sense to not allow FW at your FLGs. It does not encourage people to use FW models, meaning people are more likely to give you money than FW.

You might disagree with this logic -- but as a business owner it can make perfect sense.

If I have models bought from an online retailer, it means I cannot play at the FLGS. According to you, it doesn't need to be FW models. It just needs to be any models bought elsewhere FW or otherwise.

 labmouse42 wrote:

3rdlegion wrote:
By this logic if I bring an army to the store I had purchased from an online retailer such as FrontlineGaming, it would mean I am not welcomed to play at the local store. That is certainly short sighted of any business as it would mean I'll just go to another store to purchase hobby accessories such as paints which have higher turnover lifespan than models. Furthermore I would discourage anyone from attending said store for that reason.

You completely missed the point.
You can buy the non-FW models at the FLGS. If you opponent has models that trounce you, you might want to buy them -- and conveniently enough they are on the shelf. FW models are not.

Some people, like yourself will boycott a store because they do not allow FW. That is completely acceptable. A business owner makes the decisions to the best of their ability (usually).

Incorrect. I will boycott a store that does not allow me to use models purchased elsewhere. FW models or otherwise.

Revenue to FW is revenue to GW. This means the FLGS continues to make money indirectly because if GW does well, the FLGS can continue to sell GW products. If GW folds, the FLGS will loose one of their main sources of income.

FW are Citadel brand minatures, with GW produced rules for Warhammer 40k, and supported in their entirety. Any argument of not allowing them at a store is completely asinine.

Allowing them at a TOURNAMENT is an entirely different matter, but the model has absolutely every right to exist and a store allowing otherwise deserves their lack of business as a result.

Alright, alright, I'm sorry I brought it up. I personally think it's a stupid decision from both a business and gameplay stance but that is my personal opinion.

In a local tournament saturday I am going to take an Assault Claw with a Contemptor and drop in a Jump Pack Sorc behind him to Warptime him directly into the enemy lines with another Lord nearby for rerolls of 1. I feel this is a very strong assault and am thinking about some Khorne Terminators to assist in the shooting output and assaulting. I feel like I will be able to greatly wound a super heavy or smash through bubble wrap or disrupt a gunline pretty easily. My only concern is my internal struggle now that I have decided to drop in a Sorc to Warptime the Contemptor. I could do the same thing with 15-20 Berzerkers and MASSIVELY disrupt a huge portion of the board, stopping tanks from shooting while eliminating infantry units. Anything outside of lots of anti-assault or multiple super heavies will be tied down or dead by this.

Against big things the Contemptor will rip it to shreds, against smaller things the Berzerkers will RIP AND TEAR them to shreds. I think I'm going to go with the Berzerkers because I already have a Deamon Prince and Juggerlord for bigger things, and Kharn will fit in somewhere, plus maybe if I can shove Zhufor in there somewhere he can work. Most of the time when I deep strike I am right in front of chaff units anyways, most players are good about not allowing me to get to their big stuff and the Contemptor will flounder in this regard unless I Warptime it and give it two Heavy Flamers, and even then it might still whiff and not be allowed to get to the bigger monster/titan. I'd much rather have a fookin huge blob suddenly appear right in front of my opponent , get right in their face while spreading out, assault and spread out even more, tag everything I can, and make my two fight phases before they can even do anything (moving 3 before attacking, 3 after attacking, 3 before attacking, and 3 after attacking). The damage output for this against your average chaff unit it...impressive to say the least, moreso if your champ has a special weapon like a Power Fist or Power Axe.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Alright, alright, I'm sorry I brought it up. I personally think it's a stupid decision from both a business and gameplay stance but that is my personal opinion.

In a local tournament saturday I am going to take an Assault Claw with a Contemptor and drop in a Jump Pack Sorc behind him to Warptime him directly into the enemy lines with another Lord nearby for rerolls of 1. I feel this is a very strong assault and am thinking about some Khorne Terminators to assist in the shooting output and assaulting. I feel like I will be able to greatly wound a super heavy or smash through bubble wrap or disrupt a gunline pretty easily. My only concern is my internal struggle now that I have decided to drop in a Sorc to Warptime the Contemptor. I could do the same thing with 15-20 Berzerkers and MASSIVELY disrupt a huge portion of the board, stopping tanks from shooting while eliminating infantry units. Anything outside of lots of anti-assault or multiple super heavies will be tied down or dead by this.

Against big things the Contemptor will rip it to shreds, against smaller things the Berzerkers will RIP AND TEAR them to shreds. I think I'm going to go with the Berzerkers because I already have a Deamon Prince and Juggerlord for bigger things, and Kharn will fit in somewhere, plus maybe if I can shove Zhufor in there somewhere he can work. Most of the time when I deep strike I am right in front of chaff units anyways, most players are good about not allowing me to get to their big stuff and the Contemptor will flounder in this regard unless I Warptime it and give it two Heavy Flamers, and even then it might still whiff and not be allowed to get to the bigger monster/titan. I'd much rather have a fookin huge blob suddenly appear right in front of my opponent , get right in their face while spreading out, assault and spread out even more, tag everything I can, and make my two fight phases before they can even do anything (moving 3 before attacking, 3 after attacking, 3 before attacking, and 3 after attacking). The damage output for this against your average chaff unit it...impressive to say the least, moreso if your champ has a special weapon like a Power Fist or Power Axe.

I second Berzerker Hordes, last week I charged 20 of them into two 30 man Ork Boy blobs and, unfortunetly for the Ork player, he lacked any Boyz at the end of that combat. Plus I then piled into his Warboss and surrounded it so that he couldn't shoot my horde that turn as he couldn't back out of combat. Hmmm, how many points is the Assault Claw + 18 Berzerkers + Sorceror + Kharn? Wonder if it would be efficient to take multiple Pods filled with Zerkers, even without the warptime they have the Icon of Wrath which gives them just below a 50% chance of a charge from deep strike.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Alright, alright, I'm sorry I brought it up. I personally think it's a stupid decision from both a business and gameplay stance but that is my personal opinion.

In a local tournament saturday I am going to take an Assault Claw with a Contemptor and drop in a Jump Pack Sorc behind him to Warptime him directly into the enemy lines with another Lord nearby for rerolls of 1. I feel this is a very strong assault and am thinking about some Khorne Terminators to assist in the shooting output and assaulting. I feel like I will be able to greatly wound a super heavy or smash through bubble wrap or disrupt a gunline pretty easily. My only concern is my internal struggle now that I have decided to drop in a Sorc to Warptime the Contemptor. I could do the same thing with 15-20 Berzerkers and MASSIVELY disrupt a huge portion of the board, stopping tanks from shooting while eliminating infantry units. Anything outside of lots of anti-assault or multiple super heavies will be tied down or dead by this.

Against big things the Contemptor will rip it to shreds, against smaller things the Berzerkers will RIP AND TEAR them to shreds. I think I'm going to go with the Berzerkers because I already have a Deamon Prince and Juggerlord for bigger things, and Kharn will fit in somewhere, plus maybe if I can shove Zhufor in there somewhere he can work. Most of the time when I deep strike I am right in front of chaff units anyways, most players are good about not allowing me to get to their big stuff and the Contemptor will flounder in this regard unless I Warptime it and give it two Heavy Flamers, and even then it might still whiff and not be allowed to get to the bigger monster/titan. I'd much rather have a fookin huge blob suddenly appear right in front of my opponent , get right in their face while spreading out, assault and spread out even more, tag everything I can, and make my two fight phases before they can even do anything (moving 3 before attacking, 3 after attacking, 3 before attacking, and 3 after attacking). The damage output for this against your average chaff unit it...impressive to say the least, moreso if your champ has a special weapon like a Power Fist or Power Axe.

I second Berzerker Hordes, last week I charged 20 of them into two 30 man Ork Boy blobs and, unfortunetly for the Ork player, he lacked any Boyz at the end of that combat. Plus I then piled into his Warboss and surrounded it so that he couldn't shoot my horde that turn as he couldn't back out of combat. Hmmm, how many points is the Assault Claw + 18 Berzerkers + Sorceror + Kharn? Wonder if it would be efficient to take multiple Pods filled with Zerkers, even without the warptime they have the Icon of Wrath which gives them just below a 50% chance of a charge from deep strike.

There's no reason to shove Kharn in there, he will just fail his 9 inch charge and the horde will leave him in the dust. If they continue to move forward killing everything in sight, which they should, Kharn will never catch up. His only chance is to hop back into the Assault Claw and have it take him closer, but then you are sacrificing your Assault Claw's charge (which, to be fair, it might also not make).

OH ALSO SORCERERS CANNOT TAKE WORLD EATERS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TAKE MARK OF KHORNE!

 andysonic1 wrote:
There's no reason to shove Kharn in there, he will just fail his 9 inch charge and the horde will leave him in the dust. If they continue to move forward killing everything in sight, which they should, Kharn will never catch up. His only chance is to hop back into the Assault Claw and have it take him closer, but then you are sacrificing your Assault Claw's charge (which, to be fair, it might also not make).

OH ALSO SORCERERS CANNOT TAKE WORLD EATERS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TAKE MARK OF KHORNE!

Aye, forgot about that. Still, that puts Kharn just outside the enemy deployment turn 1 rather than getting there turn 2+.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
There's no reason to shove Kharn in there, he will just fail his 9 inch charge and the horde will leave him in the dust. If they continue to move forward killing everything in sight, which they should, Kharn will never catch up. His only chance is to hop back into the Assault Claw and have it take him closer, but then you are sacrificing your Assault Claw's charge (which, to be fair, it might also not make).

OH ALSO SORCERERS CANNOT TAKE WORLD EATERS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TAKE MARK OF KHORNE!

Aye, forgot about that. Still, that puts Kharn just outside the enemy deployment turn 1 rather than getting there turn 2+.

Look, MrHappyFace-kun, I love Kharn just as much as you do, but I think we both know that he isn't worth his points right now. No amount of tactics is going to change the fact that he is just too much of a glass cannon for the same points as a Juggerlord with a Power Fist and a Combi-Melta. Maybe the Chaos Codex coming out will give Khorne or World Eaters something beneficial or a stratagem or two, but until then Kharn is overshadowed by other, tougher, and similarly powerful units. Hell, a Deamon Prince of Khorne with double claws is even more killy for only 7 more points, while being far tougher with more wounds and more movement. Kharn is just...in a really bad place in the meta right now, like usual. If he was a bunch points cheaper he would be perfect, but I think he's costed around future rules and not current rules.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Look, MrHappyFace-kun, I love Kharn just as much as you do, but I think we both know that he isn't worth his points right now. No amount of tactics is going to change the fact that he is just too much of a glass cannon for the same points as a Juggerlord with a Power Fist and a Combi-Melta. Maybe the Chaos Codex coming out will give Khorne or World Eaters something beneficial or a stratagem or two, but until then Kharn is overshadowed by other, tougher, and similarly powerful units. Hell, a Deamon Prince of Khorne with double claws is even more killy for only 7 more points, while being far tougher with more wounds and more movement. Kharn is just...in a really bad place in the meta right now, like usual. If he was a bunch points cheaper he would be perfect, but I think he's costed around future rules and not current rules.

I know what you mean, I was very dissappointed to find that, despite Kharn getting 12 attacks (which is nice!), he is no longer S7 and lacks any equivilent to Armourbane; meaning he bounces off of Dreadnoughts when he should be able to one man army titans. This is Kharn for gods sake! There shouldn't be a unit in the game that can survive his charge!

Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

Just make him S8 already with a FnP(5+)! He's Kharn for gods sake! Not some namby pamby Dante!

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

Lucius the eternal is less durable than a regular chaos lord :/

He has been consistently the worst chaos special character for the last 3 editions, and recently his only saving grace his doom siren got nerffed, also unlike Kharn and Typhus his invulnerable didn't get boosted to 4+.

 Rydria wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

Lucius the eternal is less durable than a regular chaos lord :/

He has been consistently the worst chaos special character for the last 3 editions, and recently his only saving grace his doom siren got nerffed, also unlike Kharn and Typhus his invulnerable didn't get boosted to 4+.

Which is rather odd for a character who LITERALLY CAN'T DIE! Come on GW, give Slaanesh some love (if you know what I mean).

I'd join in with the doom and gloom but Magnus and Ahriman are both really good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Arachnofiend wrote:
I'd join in with the doom and gloom but Magnus and Ahriman are both really good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Damn Tzeentch Tricksters! *shakes fist*

 mrhappyface wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
I'd join in with the doom and gloom but Magnus and Ahriman are both really good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Damn Tzeentch Tricksters! *shakes fist*

Same here. Damn, I would gladly go mono-Slaanesh but they have been terrible for years. I am picturing a full army of Noise she-marines using the Juan Diaz heads version. That would be scary expensive though.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

Lucius the eternal is less durable than a regular chaos lord :/

He has been consistently the worst chaos special character for the last 3 editions, and recently his only saving grace his doom siren got nerffed, also unlike Kharn and Typhus his invulnerable didn't get boosted to 4+.

Which is rather odd for a character who LITERALLY CAN'T DIE! Come on GW, give Slaanesh some love (if you know what I mean).

he could easily be the chaos guy that returns like celestine does... or even better if he gets killed by a common infantry model he can come back at 4+, with d6 wound and killing the "killer" infantry model. If he is killed by a character, at the end of the game, on a 3+ the killer counts as being destroyed for victory points. Because he mutates INTO you to come back!

 Neferhet wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

Lucius the eternal is less durable than a regular chaos lord :/

He has been consistently the worst chaos special character for the last 3 editions, and recently his only saving grace his doom siren got nerffed, also unlike Kharn and Typhus his invulnerable didn't get boosted to 4+.

Which is rather odd for a character who LITERALLY CAN'T DIE! Come on GW, give Slaanesh some love (if you know what I mean).

he could easily be the chaos guy that returns like celestine does... or even better if he gets killed by a common infantry model he can come back at 4+, with d6 wound and killing the "killer" infantry model. If he is killed by a character, at the end of the game, on a 3+ the killer counts as being destroyed for victory points. Because he mutates INTO you to come back!

God I wish this were the case.

 ochobits wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
I'd join in with the doom and gloom but Magnus and Ahriman are both really good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Damn Tzeentch Tricksters! *shakes fist*

Same here. Damn, I would gladly go mono-Slaanesh but they have been terrible for years. I am picturing a full army of Noise she-marines using the Juan Diaz heads version. That would be scary expensive though.

Noise Marines and Seekers seem pretty good this edition, though I don't have any personal experience to confirm that with.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'll never understand stores that do this.

Think like a store owner.
Someone is using models they did not buy from your store to give themselves a competitive advantage over the people who did buy their stuff at their store.
It makes business sense to not allow FW at your FLGs. It does not encourage people to use FW models, meaning people are more likely to give you money than FW.

You might disagree with this logic -- but as a business owner it can make perfect sense.

Furthermore, In my 5 or so years of gaming so far I've only seen TWO people with actual Forgeworld books to present rules. Every other time I've seen/played against FW units, its some screen shot on a cell phone off Google Images.

Asking to check the rules/abilities of the Unit in question comes with a groan, an internet search, a massive zoom in on tiny print, and usually, an incorrect interpretation of the rules. Ill play against anything and anyone, but more often than not by giving my opponent benefit of the doubt, I find out later, on my own research, they were playing it incorrectly.

The problem I have with many of the anti-Forgeworld availability arguments is that those arguments would also apply to out-of-production old figures and/or figures that have gone to webstore exclusive status. Are we going to ban all Dark Vengeance figures because that starter set has been replaced?

Also, a lot of the availability issues vanish if you become more accepting of alternate models. The giant Forgeworld super-dragon becomes a lot more affordable if I'm allowed to use a Reaper Bones dragon to represent it.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
The problem I have with many of the anti-Forgeworld availability arguments is that those arguments would also apply to out-of-production old figures and/or figures that have gone to webstore exclusive status. Are we going to ban all Dark Vengeance figures because that starter set has been replaced?

Also, a lot of the availability issues vanish if you become more accepting of alternate models. The giant Forgeworld super-dragon becomes a lot more affordable if I'm allowed to use a Reaper Bones dragon to represent it.

It just goes to show that so many people are buying from online retailers, which brick and mortar stores really can't compete with since they need to pay rent, whereas online retailers don't.

Something that I've found helpful that brings money in for the store is tournament style events/leagues. Pay to play, but you get store credit as prize support. Helps the store move inventory/make money from the players, and a lot of people love the competition, especially if prize support isn't based entirely around winning.

Kharn is the only hero in CSM right now other than Abaddon that gives units around him a reroll to hit. That's not a small thing. The first time my friend put Azreal into a fire base and told me he gives models around him a 4++ invul, gives them rerolls to hit, plus he himself can serve as a countercharge... I was green with envy.

Looking through the entire CSM codex didn't turn out a single hero (not even Abaddon) with that kind of utility. But then I discovered that Kharn's aura, while short, does give that crucial reroll. And he is himself deadly in close combat. Thus, now I put him in beside big shooty war machines like my gigantic Khorn Lord of Skulls and a Land Raider.

I also tried him out as the centre of a firebase made up of two Lascannon, heavy bolter Predator tanks (fully ouyfiitted with havoc launchers and additional combi weapon). With a huge Defiler behind, also equipped with twin lascannon and combi weapon.

Suddenly, a Defiler who can reroll its battlecannon and twin lascannon is a deadly ranged attacker. And you wouldn't believe how deadly two predator tanks with the works who can reroll their hit rolls can be. He managed to drop a death company or was it Saguirnary guard within 9.1 inch of my firebase but they failed their charge. Next turn, after all the firing, the defiler and Kharn both charged in. Not much left to clean up after that.

So, Kharn has surprising utility if you get creative with how you use him. He isn't so good at buffing big 10 or 20 man units. If you want to make your zerkers better with an aura, take a dark apostle, much cheaper. Kharn is good at making warmachines shoot even better because of the rerolls. And the synergy is great because the warmachines themselves also protect Kharn from being shot at.

So, put him in a firebase like I did and suddenly you can use a shooty defiler again! I suppose I could have put him in the exact centre of a square formation 4X predator tank and that fire base would have been ridiculous. But I don't have so many predator tanks right now. lol Might be interesting to try lol.

Or put him in between a Lord of skulls and a land raider. When the opponent faces a Hades Gratling cannon firing 12 shots with rerolls ... Its all because of Kharn. hehe. (ps, I am just glad that my LOS, defiler, LR, predator tanks which I spent months assembling and painting are now suddenly useful in the battlefield again. They spent so much time gathering dust as mere display pieces. So happy).