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Based on the marine stratagems leaked I get the feeling that Emperor's children are going to get. 1CP add +1 to the would rolls of sonic weapons or something similar.

I can't wait for them to start leaking our codex i hope it is next before grey knights and death guard.

 Rydria wrote:
Based on the marine stratagems leaked I get the feeling that Emperor's children are going to get. 1CP add +1 to the would rolls of sonic weapons or something similar.

I can't wait for them to start leaking our codex i hope it is next before grey knights and death guard.

But if the CSM codex is next that would mean chaos would have a fair fight for half of the Konor campaign, we can't have the shiny new Space Marines lose another world wide campaign or daddy GW will have to come bail them out again.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Based on the marine stratagems leaked I get the feeling that Emperor's children are going to get. 1CP add +1 to the would rolls of sonic weapons or something similar.

I can't wait for them to start leaking our codex i hope it is next before grey knights and death guard.

But if the CSM codex is next that would mean chaos would have a fair fight for half of the Konor campaign, we can't have the shiny new Space Marines lose another world wide campaign or daddy GW will have to come bail them out again.

I do hope that Chaos somehow wins this. Just so we can bring the grim back into grimdark... Take that, plot armour!

 Rydria wrote:
Based on the marine stratagems leaked I get the feeling that Emperor's children are going to get. 1CP add +1 to the would rolls of sonic weapons or something similar.

I can't wait for them to start leaking our codex i hope it is next before grey knights and death guard.

I'm hoping for some kind of combat drug use, or I'd take gaining an +1 shot for each hit roll of 6. But... how about this wound rolls of 6 with sonic weapons: counts as +2S, or AP-4; call it "Destructive Resonance".

 Lorek wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
Anyone tried using terminators much in this edition. When the rules first dropped, deepstriking Khorne Terminators with Warptime support seemed like an appealing turn 1 prospect. Has anyone had any experience with this?

I'm running a sub-optimal Terminator squad that's still been the unit of the match for me every game. I built them with what I had, and before the indexes were available, so I'm running a Reaper Autocannon (~BARF~), a combi-bolter and three combi-meltas. There are two power axes, two powerfists and a chainfist. I back them up with a Terminator Sorcerer, and Prescience + Warptime makes them FEARSOME. The biggest challenge is clearing away the bubble wrap by turn 3, but it's been rather effective so far. The only real caveat with this is that you'd be wise to take something besides the Sorcerer as the warlord. While durable, he certainly becomes a target.

At least the Reaper Autocannon isn't complete garbage like it was last edition. 4 shots ain't too bad for the price.

Ok, I re-simmed with Pre-science.
But thats just adding even more cost to an already expensive model to make it 'more viable'.

So to be fair to the Leviathan, I've added half the cost of the Sorcerer to the weapon costs. Since we are using half of his psychic phase on the Raptor. Which will be out of range for 1/2 the game. Unless it hovers.
Which reduces its survivability significantly.
When the leviathan already wins in that arena.

Leviathan stats didn't change.
Left them in for comparison.
This included its re-rolls of 1, same as Levi. Assumed hovering.

-- Against a Ghost Keel - T6, W12, Sv 3+, Invuln 5+, -1 to hit. (I think these are the stats?) x1 ;


Levi + Butcher (Twin) -
Turns to kill : 1.45
Damage per turn : 8.3
Weapon efficiency : 19.29pts per damage


Raptor + Bolters -
Quad Bolters :
Turns to kill : 5.14 (3.86)
Damage per turn : 2.33 (3.11)
Weapon efficiency : 30.86pts per damage (37.61pts)

Bolt Cannons :
Turns to kill : 3.09 (2.31)
Damage per turn : 3.89 (5.19)
Weapon efficiency : - (free weapon) (8.68pts)
Kills squad in : 2 turns (2)



--- Against a hoard of Orks T4, 6+ x30

Levi + Butcher (Twin) -
Turns to kill : 2.31
Damage per turn : 12.96
Weapon efficiency : 12.34pts per damage


Raptor + Bolters -
Quad Bolters :
Turns to kill : 2.41 (1.93)
Damage per turn : 12.44 (15.56)
Weapon efficiency : 5.79pts per damage (7.52pts)

Bolt Cannons :
Turns to kill : 5.79 (4.63)
Damage per turn : 5.19 (6.48)
Weapon efficiency : - (free weapon) 6.94pts
Kills squad in : 2 turns (2)



--- Against a Marines T4, 3+ x10

Levi + Butcher (Twin) -
Turns to kill : 1.54
Damage per turn : 6.48
Weapon efficiency : 24.69pts per damage


Raptor + Bolters -
Quad Bolters :
Turns to kill : 1.61 (1.29)
Damage per turn : 6.22 (7.78)
Weapon efficiency : 11.57pts per damage (15.07pts)

Bolt Cannons :
Turns to kill : 2.89 (2.31)
Damage per turn : 3.46 (4.32)
Weapon efficiency : - (free weapon) 10.41pts
Kills Squad in : 2 turns (1)



--- Against a knight T8, 3+, 5++, W24 x1

Levi + Butcher (Twin) -
Turns to kill : 3.9
Damage per turn : 7.78
Weapon efficiency : 20.57pts per damage


Raptor + Bolters -
Quad Bolters :
Turns to kill : 7.71 (6.17)
Damage per turn : 3.11 (3.89)
Weapon efficiency : 23.14pts per damage (30.09pts)

Bolt Cannons :
Turns to kill : 6.94 (5.55)
Damage per turn : 3.46 (4.32)
Weapon efficiency : - (free weapon) 10.41 - Sorcerer cost 45pts approx
Kills Squad in : 4 turns (3)



In summary,
The pre-science. While really strong, isn't points effective.
Chances are you have your Raptor + Sorcerer sitting back stage shooting at things.
Which means I should have calculated the Sorcerer at full value rather than half value as he will likely be doing nothing all game except pre-science the Raptor.

Against low T targets, the Raptor wins out.
Against high T targets, the Raptor NEEDS Pre-science just to compete with the Leviathan.

 Sersi wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Based on the marine stratagems leaked I get the feeling that Emperor's children are going to get. 1CP add +1 to the would rolls of sonic weapons or something similar.

I can't wait for them to start leaking our codex i hope it is next before grey knights and death guard.

I'm hoping for some kind of combat drug use, or I'd take gaining an +1 shot for each hit roll of 6. But... how about this wound rolls of 6 with sonic weapons: counts as +2S, or AP-4; call it "Destructive Resonance".

wouldn't this be aweful as a stategem since it has the chance to do nothing ?

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Based on the marine stratagems leaked I get the feeling that Emperor's children are going to get. 1CP add +1 to the would rolls of sonic weapons or something similar.

I can't wait for them to start leaking our codex i hope it is next before grey knights and death guard.

I'm hoping for some kind of combat drug use, or I'd take gaining an +1 shot for each hit roll of 6. But... how about this wound rolls of 6 with sonic weapons: counts as +2S, or AP-4; call it "Destructive Resonance".

wouldn't this be aweful as a stategem since it has the chance to do nothing ?

Several of the unique Chapter Stratagems are like that too (like Bolter Drill for the IF & CF which gives extra bolter shots on a 6 To Hit or Abhor the Witch for BT with a 50% chance of stopping a Psychic Power and a 50% chance of doing nothing).

I just used [Saint Carnage's mathammer for dummies spreadsheet](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_P0JCsKHWXlZ2dwX041M0VNbzQ/view) and learned that:

While BLOOD SLAUGHTERER OF BLOODY BLOOD GOD is only 12% more expensive than ^mauler^fiend ... (dual blades on BSoK, Lasher Tendrils on Mauler)

[Against common targets he is between 25% and 90% better...](http://i.imgur.com/SzOYtDZ.png)

Without actually seeing the math I was convincing myself that 19 pts cheaper and 2 extra wounds was ... balanced?

But the BSoK also auto-advances 6" and is just so much better.

In a competitive game (to some degree most of my games) my 3x Maulers will sit forever next to my Possessed on the shelf =(

Console me lads. Do you think it is acceptable to "count-as" Maulers for BSoK?

What are some good mod-kits / extra blade arms, etc that could kitbash the Mauler into something more like a BSoK?

Without doing the math I knew right away when I got the FW book that the Blood Slaughterer was better due to the larger number of attacks coupled with the better WS AND the auto advance 6. Seeing the math validate my opinion is lovely.

I wouldn't mind someone proxying Maulers for Slaughterers but you better do some work on them to make them a bit more blady and khorny.

 bosswoodfox wrote:
I just used [Saint Carnage's mathammer for dummies spreadsheet](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_P0JCsKHWXlZ2dwX041M0VNbzQ/view) and learned that:

While BLOOD SLAUGHTERER OF BLOODY BLOOD GOD is only 12% more expensive than ^mauler^fiend ... (dual blades on BSoK, Lasher Tendrils on Mauler)

[Against common targets he is between 25% and 90% better...](http://i.imgur.com/SzOYtDZ.png)

Without actually seeing the math I was convincing myself that 19 pts cheaper and 2 extra wounds was ... balanced?

But the BSoK also auto-advances 6" and is just so much better.

In a competitive game (to some degree most of my games) my 3x Maulers will sit forever next to my Possessed on the shelf =(

Console me lads. Do you think it is acceptable to "count-as" Maulers for BSoK?

What are some good mod-kits / extra blade arms, etc that could kitbash the Mauler into something more like a BSoK?

You could make blade arms quite easily with plasticard and plasticard tubes. But really I would just buy a bsk and cast the arm parts.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Based on the marine stratagems leaked I get the feeling that Emperor's children are going to get. 1CP add +1 to the would rolls of sonic weapons or something similar.

I can't wait for them to start leaking our codex i hope it is next before grey knights and death guard.

I'm hoping for some kind of combat drug use, or I'd take gaining an +1 shot for each hit roll of 6. But... how about this wound rolls of 6 with sonic weapons: counts as +2S, or AP-4; call it "Destructive Resonance".

wouldn't this be aweful as a stategem since it has the chance to do nothing ?

Several of the unique Chapter Stratagems are like that too (like Bolter Drill for the IF & CF which gives extra bolter shots on a 6 To Hit or Abhor the Witch for BT with a 50% chance of stopping a Psychic Power and a 50% chance of doing nothing).

Indeed, that was what I based it on. Powerful and characterful but with a chance of failing. The always active abilities tend to weaker. Or...they could bring back some of Slaanesh's characteristic Morale/LD bombing abilities. The OG Noise Marines for instance ignored morale penalties and forced them on others excluding daemons. While Slaaneshi Daemons have always have LD manipulating mechanics. If any Faction should have these kinds of abilities its Slaanesh.

Question...

Has anyone considered using the new Primaris Dreadnought with Butcher Array arms from FW as a Leviathan?

mcsheehy wrote:
Question...

Has anyone considered using the new Primaris Dreadnought with Butcher Array arms from FW as a Leviathan?

Use that ugly thing for a glorious Leviathan? Not a chance.

I wonder if GW will bring back the chaos lieutenant/exalted champion, I noticed space marines received a none primeris lieutenant and it would be nice to have that reroll of 1s to wound aura.

 Rydria wrote:
I wonder if GW will bring back the chaos lieutenant/exalted champion, I noticed space marines received a none primeris lieutenant and it would be nice to have that reroll of 1s to wound aura.

You got a link for that? I've only found one page on B&C that says a new Lieutenant is coming but the page shows nothing (need to make a B&C account to view it or something like that).

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I wonder if GW will bring back the chaos lieutenant/exalted champion, I noticed space marines received a none primeris lieutenant and it would be nice to have that reroll of 1s to wound aura.

You got a link for that? I've only found one page on B&C that says a new Lieutenant is coming but the page shows nothing (need to make a B&C account to view it or something like that).

There you go it is in the space marine rumours thread here on dakka

Aw that would be awesome. My money is on that being just another goodie that the loyalists get that we don't to leave us behind though. Maybe we'll get something else that's nice though. Just not as nice as that.

 Rydria wrote:
I wonder if GW will bring back the chaos lieutenant/exalted champion, I noticed space marines received a none primeris lieutenant and it would be nice to have that reroll of 1s to wound aura.

That'd be another great aura that Thousand Sons doesn't get access to. xp

Man, I really cannot get over how bad the Exalted Sorcerer aura is. They might as well have made it only apply to Magnus because that's the only time it's realistically going to show up, and even then it's faaaar less useful than what everyone else is getting.

I won't care about losing auras on our TS, as long we get back psychic variety.
We don't need 6 spells, we need about 24...

Dont feel bad about Thousand Sons...

Plague Marines pay a hefty 21pts for their Disgusting resilience.
Iron hands pay 13pts for theirs!?

I mean... come on.
Atleast Thousand sons are relatively cheap.

I mean, disgustingly resiliant is 17% more effective then the IH chapter tactic, Plague Marines are T5, have a better close-combat weapon and have better grenades...

mcsheehy wrote:
Dont feel bad about Thousand Sons...

Plague Marines pay a hefty 21pts for their Disgusting resilience.
Iron hands pay 13pts for theirs!?

I mean... come on.
Atleast Thousand sons are relatively cheap.

Well, to be fair, that is +8pts for double the chance to ignore a wound, +1T and access to some pretty tasty weapons.

Ok,

I must admit I forgot about the +1T.

But its not against wounds, its against damage.
If someone hits me with a D2 weapon. It almost completely ignores DR.

As for the weapons, re-rolling 1's and failed wounds. Yes, that is appealing. But mine have yet to see combat in over 10 games.

That includes me playing them defensively, aggressively and carefully. I even put some in a pod, failed their charge and died in the next shooting phase.

They have lasted the longest when I stick them in ruins and just sit there hoping something comes close enough to shoot.




But my Thousand sons have 'Mobile Ruins' against most small weapons fire. So far I've had far more luck with them.
Maybe just my opponents.

mcsheehy wrote:
Dont feel bad about Thousand Sons...

Plague Marines pay a hefty 21pts for their Disgusting resilience.
Iron hands pay 13pts for theirs!?

I mean... come on.
Atleast Thousand sons are relatively cheap.

Well to be fair, when your codex drops you'll probably get some sort of boost too.
After all, if chaos subfactions don't get "tactics", people will just play chaos as one big faction.

So new FAQ highlights.
Cypher can't summon.
Noise marines clarified. A lot.
Exalted sorcerors can take force swords.
And
....
Warptime confirmed to work on reinforcements.

Lashes of torment no longer replace the claws and remove 2 attacks on herald seeker chariots.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So new FAQ highlights.

Exalted sorcerors can take force swords.

I wonder why spesifically swords and not axes though.

Not like the kit contains a sword...


And a slight FUUUUUUU and I just built 3 with staves. I'd make one or two as swords if I'd known they would change it.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So new FAQ highlights.

Exalted sorcerors can take force swords.

I wonder why spesifically swords and not axes though.

Not like the kit contains a sword...


And a slight FUUUUUUU and I just built 3 with staves. I'd make one or two as swords if I'd known they would change it.

It is exactly because the kit contains a sword. Still kinda petty to not include axes. Like, PH Ahriman has one.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So new FAQ highlights.

Exalted sorcerors can take force swords.

I wonder why spesifically swords and not axes though.

Not like the kit contains a sword...


And a slight FUUUUUUU and I just built 3 with staves. I'd make one or two as swords if I'd known they would change it.

It is exactly because the kit contains a sword. Still kinda petty to not include axes. Like, PH Ahriman has one.

Huh, didn't even know the kit has swords until now.

PH?