Eldarain wrote:
Summoning is garbage. The fact you have to jump through all those hoops just to end up with a limited form of the deep strike everything else gets is ridiculous.

My one hope for Word Bearers was fixing that. Making it not hurt you doesnt alleviate the makor flaws in it.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
What is it suppose to be? Some sort of necklace or claws?

 Arkaine wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Summoning is garbage. The fact you have to jump through all those hoops just to end up with a limited form of the deep strike everything else gets is ridiculous.

My one hope for Word Bearers was fixing that. Making it not hurt you doesnt alleviate the makor flaws in it.

It's not a limited form of deep strike. It's a way to list tailor.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Also as expected no daemonic steeds are in the codex.

Bit sad for all the people who love using Juggerlords, as it means in a few years they won't be supported.

Crispy78 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Also as expected no daemonic steeds are in the codex.

Bit sad for all the people who love using Juggerlords, as it means in a few years they won't be supported.

WHAT???

1) Exalted Champions are real
2) the base wargear list is the same - so no daemon weapons outside of artefacts, no master crafted weapons, the same awkward wording on champion gear that makes it sound like if you take a bolter/combi bolter then you can't take any other weapons (no combi bolter/power weapon, can't even take a bolter+bolt pistol like regular dudes)
- psychic powers -
3) nurgle power buffs a nurgle heretic astartes unit w/in 18" cast on a six, until your next psychic phase attacks against that unit suffer -1 to hit. very nice.
4) other psychic powers are as previously spoiled elsewhere
- unit profiles -
5) abby looks the same apart from the bonus command points
6) bile looks the same
7) doom sirens are assault d6 instead of d3 now
8) cypher and fallen look the same. the prohibition against fallen rhinos (or anything else apart from cypher and the special fallen unit) remains.
9) huron grants a single extra command point if he's your warlord, otherwise looks the same to me
10) daemon prince is power rating 8, or 9 with wings, otherwise looks the same as the current CSM version to me.
11) lord looks the same to me
12) termi lord is power 6 instead of 7
13) regular sorcerer is power 6 instead of 7
14) termi sorcerer looks the same
15) NO LORDS OR SORCERERS ON DAEMONIC STEEDS (though they should still be legal with current rules)
16) NO LORDS OR SORCERERS ON BIKES (again still playable out of the index)
17) exalted champion is there, power armor only, 4 wound hero, same power rating as a lord tho. gets to reroll failed hits against enemy characters. grants aura that lets friendly legion units w/in 6" reroll ALL failed wounds, not just ones, but ONLY in the fight phase
18) smiths are power 5 instead of 6
19) basic CSMs look the same
20) cultists look the same
21) rules are included for each of the four primary daemon types, for summoning I guess. They do not have the heretic astartes faction keyword.
22) I am not familiar enough with their rules to say if they look any different.
23) extra batches of berzerkers are +4 power rating instead of +5, otherwise they look the same to me.
24) rubric marines are 7 power rating instead of 8 for the first five, but +7 instead of +6 for extra batches. Look the same to me otherwise.
25) plague marines have a lot more equipment options in melee. They can trade their bolters for an axe (S+1 AP-2 D1; plague weapon; +1 attack for having the knife in the off hand), or a second plague knife (+1 attack with their other knife). Up to two can replace their bolters with maces (S+2 AP-1 D3 -1 to hit; plague weapon; +1 attack for having the knife in the off hand) AND the previously mentioned axe, and two more can replace their bolters with cleavers (Sx2 AP-3 Dd6; plague weapon) or flails (d3 attacks for every attack on the users profile; S+2 AP -2 D2; excess damage isn't lost, just roll it onto the next model in the unit; plague weapon). these melee upgrades are in addition to the prior special weapon options. the champion doesn't get any of these special melee upgrade options, but their power fist is in addition to all their other weapons, so they can have fist, plasmagun, and plague sword in case they don't want to take the penalty to hit from the fist. Power rating stays 7, I cannot make out the power cost for extra batches.
26) Noise marines are 6 power instead of 7, doom sirens d6 hits instead of d3, I can't make out any other changes or not
27) chosen are one power rating cheaper both at base cost and for batches, otherwise look the same to me
28) mutilators are power 7 instead of 10, looks like a hefty points drop will be coming their way. cannot see anything else.
29) terminators look the same
30) possessed are 2 wounds instead of 1, same power, can't really see whether anything else is changed
31) helbrute is power 7 instead of 8, otherwise looks the same
32) bikers are power 5 instead of 7, otherwise look the same
33) spawn look the same
34) raptors are power 6 instead of 7, can't see any other changes
35) warp talons are power 7 instead of 9, look the same otherwise
36) havocs look the same
37) oblits have twice as many shots, otherwise look the same as before. That means that, at worst, they're armed with reaper autocannons, with the potential for up to 4 shots each at S9, AP-3, D3. still unreliable, but double the output from before at the same cost may move them up to usable. We'll see.
38) land raider looks the same.
39) Defiler is power 11 instead of 16, a whopping 5 power less, discount of almost a third if points follow suit. Otherwise looks the same.
40) Forgefiend is power 9 instead of 10, otherwise looks the same.
41) Maulerfiend looks the same.
42) Vindicator is power 8 instead of 11, cannot make out if there are any other changes.
43) Predator is power 9 instead of 10, otherwise look the same.
44) can't make out rhino at all. Power rating stays the same at least.
45) heldrake looks the same.
46) LORD OF SKULLS IS POWER RATING 29 INSTEAD OF 39. If the points follow suite, it will be fully 25% cheaper. I don't see any other changes, but cannot make it all out.
- faction/subfaction rules -
47) As previously spoiled, Pure-CSM detachments (not the regular daemon units do not count even though they appear in the book as they don't have the legion keyword) gain the same objective secured style rule as vanilla space marines
48) Legion traits look to be as spoiled previously. Of the ones not already previewed, that's ATSKNF for Word Bearers, -1 to hit Alpha Legion units more than 12" from the shooter, and Renegade Chapters can advance and Charge.
49) Fallen units and Bile, as spoiled previously, can be ignored when determining if your detachment qualifies for legion goodies, but cannot benefit from those goodies themselves.
- stratagems
50), gods, there are so many stratagems....
51) EDIT - never mind, I was able to read this below
52) Flakk Missile - 1CP - use on a single Heretic Astartes model with a missile launcher targeting a flyer in the shooting phase. Instead of firing normally, the user makes one attack at +1 to hit that causes D3 mortal wounds if it hits.
53) Fire Frenzy - 1 CP - use on a helbrute in the shooting phase and only if it stood still in the movement phase. It shoots all its weapons twice, but can only target the closest visible enemy unit. Remember, Leviathans are helbrutes, now.
54) Forward Operatives - 1 CP - Alpha Legion only, use during deployment on an Alpha Legion infantry unit. Don't set them up normally. Instead, after deployment but before the first turn, set them up anywhere on the table more than 9" from any enemy models.
55) Dark Pact - 1 CP - Word Bearers only, use when one of their characters attempts to summon daemons, may re-roll the dice, and does not suffer wounds on doubles or triples
56) Excess of Violence - 1 CP - Emperor's Children only, use on an Emperor's Children unit in the fight phase, each time the model slays an enemy model, it can make another hit roll with the same weapon against the same target. This hit rolls can't generate more hits. Note that hit rolls from DttFE cannot trigger extra attacks from EoV or vice versa. However, attacks from Music of the Apocalypse can, so long as the Noise Marine was slain and is making those attacks in the fight phase. If a Noise Marine is slain by conscripts in the fight phase while under the effect of EoV, throws a Frag Grenade with Music of the Apocalypse, and kills 4 conscripts, then he will throw four more frag grenades before being removed as a casualty. An unlikely circumstance, but cool if it happens
57) Demon Shell - 1 CP - use on a CSM character before firing a bolt pistol, bold gun, combi bolter, or the bolter part of a combi weapon. Make a single hit roll with no rerolls allowed, if you hit deal D3 mortal wounds to the target, if you miss the character suffers D3 mortal wounds instead.
58) Gifts of Chaos - 1 or 3 CP - use before battle for 1 or 2 extra artifacts respectively. Still only one of any given artifact, and only one on any given character.
59) Beseech the Dark Gods - 1 CP - use at the start of any of your turns on an unmarked CSM unit with the <mark of chaos> keyword. Pick a mark, they have it now. No word on what happens to non-mark only gear like the icon of vengeance.
60) Chaos Boon - 1 CP - ok I can read it now. Use at the end of a fight phase on a CSM character that isn't a daemon prince and that killed an enemy character, monster, or vehicle in that phase. roll 2d6 and consult the chart: 2 - the character dies, but you get a consolation spawn; 3 - add 6" to their ranged weapon ranges; 4 - add 3" to their move stat; 5 - +1 strength; 6 - +1 attacks; 7 - choose any result you want other than 2 or 12; 8 - enemies suffer -1 to hit rolls against the character in melee; 9 - +1 to saving throws; 10 - +1 toughness; 11 - +1 wounds; 12 - the character dies, but you get a consolation Daemon Prince. Spawn and princes created by this stratagem don't cost reserve points.
61) Blasphemous Machines - 1 CP - use on a CSM vehicle in the shooting phase, it ignores the hit penalties associated with heavy and assault weapons
62) Veterans of the Long War - 1 CP - use on a CSM infantry or bike unit in the shooting or fight phase; the unit gains +1 to wound rolls that turn.
63) Grandfather's Blessing - 2 CP - use on a CSM Nurgle Infantry or Biker unit at the end of your move phase. An injured model in the unit regains d3 wounds. If there are no injured models in the unit, restore one slain model to the unit with one wound remaining
64) The Great Sorcerer - 1 CP - use on a CSM Tzeentch Psyker at the end of your psychic phase to immediately attempt one additional psychic power
65) Tide of Traitors - 2 CP - use at the end of your movement phase on a cultist unit. Remove the cultist unit from the table, redeploy it at its original starting strength within 6" of your board edge and more than 9" from any enemy.
66) Linebreaker Bombardment - 1 CP, use on a trio of chaos vindicators during the shooting phase. None of them shoot normally this turn. Instead pick a point within 24" of all of them and roll a die for each enemy unit within 3" of the point (-1 for characters, +1 for units of 10+). On a 4+, the unit suffers 3d3 mortal wounds.
67) Killshot - 1 CP - use on a trio of chaos predators during the shooting phase. They all gain +1 to wound monsters and vehicles that phase.
68) Daemonforge - 1 CP - use on a chaos daemon vehicle in the shoot or fight phase to re-roll all failed hit and wound rolls that phase. I'm imagining this on a Lord of Skulls and laughing.
69) Chaos Familiar - 1 CP - use on a chaos marine psyker at the start of the psychic phase to swap out one of their powers for another form the CSM psychic powers list
- artefacts -
70) Murder Sword - replaces a power sword, S+1 AP-4 D1. Pick an enemy character at the start of the game and tell your opponent. Against that character the sword inflicts a mortal wound on every hit instead of normal damage.
71) Puscleaver - nurgle only - replaces a power sword, S user AP-2 Dd3, wounds non-vehicle models on a 2+ regardless of toughness.
72) Intoxicating Elixer - slaanesh only - +1 Srength and attacks
73) Eye of Tzeentch - tzeentch psyker only - +1 to cast smite
74) Talisman of Burning Blood - khorne only - can advance and charge, can re-roll failed charges
75) Axe of Blind Fury - khorne only - replaces a power axe, S+3 AP-3 Dd3, hit rolls of 1 cannot be re-rolled or modified and will hit friendly units within 1" of the character if there are any (otherwise will miss normally - you won't hit yourself)
76) Black Mace - replaces a power maul, S+3 AP-2 D2, for every model slain roll a die, on a 6 that models unit suffers an extra mortal wound at the end of the phase
77) Eye of Night - black legion only - 1/game instead of shooting other weapons in the shooting phase make a single attack against an enemy vehicle within line of sight, on a 2+ it suffers d3 mortal wounds. Frankly, I find this extremely disappointing.
78) Cursed Crozius - word bearers only - replaces a power mace, S+2 AP-2 D3, re-roll failed wound rolls against Imperials
79) Blade of the Hydra - alpha legion only - replaces a chainsword, S+1 AP? D?, +d3 attacks with this weapon in melee
80) Blissgiver - emperor's children only - replaces a bolt pistol, 6" range, assault d6, S user, AP-1 D1, can be fired in melee, if it woulds a character without killing them roll a d6 at the end of the phase and on a 6 they suffer d3 mortal wounds
- warlord traits -
81) Eternal Vendetta - Huron always takes this - re-roll failed wound rolls for your warlord in the fight phase against Adeptus Astartes units
82) Flames of Spite - If your warlord rolls a 6+ to wound in the fight phase, the target suffers a mortal wound in addition to other damage.
83) Lord of Terror - Bile always picks this - enemy units that test morale within 6" of your warlord roll two dice and take the highest
84) Exalted Champion - your warlord gains +1 attack
85) Unholy Fortitude - your warlord gains +1 wound and ignores wounds suffered on a 6+
86) Hatred Incarnate - you can re-roll wound rolls of 1 made by your warlord
87) Stimulated by Pain - emperor's children only, lucious always takes this - your warlord gains +1 attack for every wound suffered, up to +3 max. Healed wounds remove the bonus attacks as well.
88) Abaddon always takes the black legion trait if he's your warlord
89) Khârn always takes the World Eaters trait if he's your warlord
89) Voice of Lorgar - word bearers only - +3" aura range
90) I Am Alpharius - Alpha Legion only - pick a chaos marine warlord trait in addition to this one. If your warlord dies, pick a new Alpha Legion character to be your warlord, and give them this warlord trait (including choosing an additional CSM warlord trait for them). Your opponent only counts as slaying your warlord if you run out of Alpha Legion characters to pass this trait to. I love it.
91) Cypher can be your warlord, but doesn't get to have a warlord trait at all
- points -
92) I'm too tired to try to make out any points costs, but the lord of skulls at least is fully 100 points cheaper before considering weapons

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why is it basically impossible for Defilers to be balanced? What is the hidden factor that makes them junk no matter what changes are made to them?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Daemon troops don't get ObSec, & mean you can't use Legion Traits (they lack the <Legion> & Heretic Astartes Keyword). In fact taking the Daemon Troops means any other Heretic Astartes troops in the detachment don't get ObSec

 mrhappyface wrote:
Thanks.

So no Daemon Weapons (d6 extra attacks) anymore, not sure how I feel about that since, on the flip side, artifacts are almost free now...

Ghorgul wrote:
That is brutal! Then same thing again next turn if enemy decides to ignore the squad. Also with prescience you might not even need to overcharge your plasma guns. One could instead rapid fire both bolter and plasmagun if the target is some low T low save unit. The amount of death is just overwhelming.

Agusto wrote:
I have made an army of fallen Dark Angels and have been wanting to add Cypher to that list, but I can't think of any reasons (besides fluff) to include him. What does he bring to a list? Yes, he doesn't give up StW on a 2+ but apart from that? It doesn't matter if I play my army as DA or CSM, Cypher doesn't buff it in any way, unless I bring Fallen, and then I have Rhinos and Droppods that can't be used. Help please... What does Cypher actually do?

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Daemon troops don't get ObSec, & mean you can't use Legion Traits (they lack the <Legion> & Heretic Astartes Keyword). In fact taking the Daemon Troops means any other Heretic Astartes troops in the detachment don't get ObSec

This is incorrect.
"If your army is Battle-forged, all Troops units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain this ability...."

Chaos Space Marine Detachments can take Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, 'Letters, and Horrors as troops. It does not say anything about Heretic Astartes. Heretic Astartes =! Chaos Space Marine Detachment.

The way I read this is that if you take daemonettes as troops with a daemon prince from the CSM codex, you get Obsec.