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Sokhar wrote:
Touching on the Be'lakor discussion from before, he does have one other big advantage going for him....if you're inclined to summon units (and with the decreased point cost of our Troop demons, I think Bloodletters should be appealing), Be'lakor is an excellent guy to do it with. Since he is unmarked by any particular god, he can summon any kind of daemon unit. And unlike say a Malefic Lord or other summon-battery, Be'lakor is quite fast. His movement plus Warp Time can put him in great position turn 1, to be able to summon next turn. Alternately, owing to Warp Time, he is less penalized than other characters because he can summon and then cast and still get one normal movement in on the turn.

Very nice, flexible character. Definitely worth paying a little extra on top of the normal DP costs to include him, in my opinion.

I agree with you, although I don't think he can cast warptime on himself, it only applies CSM units. But he's very badass, played with him couple time to summon Bloodletters and push Berzerkers forward with warptime.

 Rydria wrote:
Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.

I'd expect an errata for that.

Also remember with D6 extra attacks you don't need the rerolls. Hitting straight on 2 is basically the same as a Power Fist while only costing you a Power Axe.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.

I'd expect an errata for that.

Also remember with D6 extra attacks you don't need the rerolls. Hitting straight on 2 is basically the same as a Power Fist while only costing you a Power Axe.

The Axe of blind fury doesn't give an extra d6 attacks.

I actually think Str 8 is better than reroll to hit. A straight 2+ to hit is good enough in general. That's 83% chance to hit, and it will give you a 2+ to round infantry type characters. It will also make you deadly even against vehicles.

Str 4 to 5 attacks are good mainly only against infantry. Because you need 5s to wound a vehicle or anything with T6 or higher. No point getting in more hits just to fail to wound.

A powerfist would serve as well, but it is more expensive, and it gives you a -1 to hit. I would see the axe of biting fury as better than a powerfist.


Coming round to the idea of taking cultists over CSM for objective secured now. A 10 man cultist squad is cheap and yes, it dies easily. But you can stick it in cover for a 5+ save. And let's say he shoot it and hope morale kills more. Even if one model survives, it is still objective secured. Imagine how irritating it is to try and kill a one man cultist model who is hiding inside a corner of the ruins.

Wouldn't it be great if a unit gained a +1 cover save in addition in cover if it only had one model left? Annoying man ftw!

 Rydria wrote:

MaxT wrote:
The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.

I've never seen anyone use any other cult troops as elites, they only time they are ever used is when they where available as troops simply because there not good enough.

If i'm forced to take an inferior detachment which gives less command points and denies be objective secured feth taking noise marines i'm taking terminators, possessed, Havocs or chosen so I can give every member of the squad a special/heavy weapon and watch them wreck things.

Also did you guys know that Emperor's Children and World Eaters are supposedly not locked to mark of slaanesh and Khorne respectively according to someone on B&C you can literally take any mark they forgot to put that restriction in the codex :/

This right here, cult troops aren't worth it as elites. It your not going to play to the mission then you going for annihilation. Besides which CSM have been able to take cults as troops for the last 3 editions with a marked Lord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rydria wrote:
Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.

Yet another missed opportunity. The Daemon Prince is also left out in the cold on Legion Traits.

Looking at Alpha Legion to run my Rubric Marines so I have an actual legion trait to use with my units. Since GW couldnt be bothered with putting out a data slate with that information on it.

Im hoping the -1 to hit will deter some of the more dangerous weapons, mainly overcharged plasma, on top of that the ability to drop a 10 man squad of Rubricae in rapid fire range. Seems like a good way to get some extra tricks without loaing much.

 Rydria wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.

I'd expect an errata for that.

Also remember with D6 extra attacks you don't need the rerolls. Hitting straight on 2 is basically the same as a Power Fist while only costing you a Power Axe.

The Axe of blind fury doesn't give an extra d6 attacks.

Huh. Bizarre.

My point stands on the cheapness though. That's points for maybe another power weapon.

What do you guys think about running a Daemonic axe on a DP now the pts have been slashed to 10?

Literally same cost as 2 talons, you loose two attacks but gives you that extra punch if you need it vs horrible stuff.
So do 3 DA attacks then 2 MT attacks

Is it know, if normal CSM can have a chainsword in addition to the Bolter now?

I really hope Chosen can at least take both. It's not a major thing but it would go a step further to differentiate them from the normal marines.

I guess that Chosen were never able to do this. So I would not count on it.

What is it better between havocs lasconons and Predators to hunt tanks ?

Thanks you guys !

Well with the pts adjustments a 4 lascannon pred is coming in at 190pts

For the same price you can get 7 havocs and 4 lascannons.

The havocs can target 4 seperate targets whereas the pred has to target 3.

With the legion rules (whichever you pick) the havocs get that whereas the pred does not.

Then you are looking at:
7 T4 3+ save would who need to take a LD
vs
11 T7 3+ save wounds but more vulnerable to multi damage weps

Pred is more mobile with M10

Pred gets worse as takes damage but can always file all guns
Havocs obv eventually loose models

TBH its prob a hard call, comes down a lot to playstyle and taste

 Astmeister wrote:
I guess that Chosen were never able to do this. So I would not count on it.

the only official chosen models are armed with a close combat weapon, a bolter and a bolt pistol.

The stratagems make the difference. If you want to spend ~600 points on anti tank shooting, take the predators and use the 1 cp stratagem that makes them add 1 to wounds rolls and damage (although that is a bit unreliable when you dont get the first turn and your opponent manages to kill one of your predators).

If you want to spend less points, take Havocs, give them the mark of slaanesh and let them fire twice for 2 CP. Much cheaper in points, but costs a lot of CP.

 Rydria wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
I guess that Chosen were never able to do this. So I would not count on it.

the only official chosen models are armed with a close combat weapon, a bolter and a bolt pistol.

You mean the Dark Vengeance guys?
The think is that the Chosen are not able to take Chainsword and Bolter in the Index. They have to choose one, which is a bit sad.

 Latro_ wrote:
Well with the pts adjustments a 4 lascannon pred is coming in at 190pts

For the same price you can get 7 havocs and 4 lascannons.

The havocs can target 4 seperate targets whereas the pred has to target 3.

With the legion rules (whichever you pick) the havocs get that whereas the pred does not.

Then you are looking at:
7 T4 3+ save would who need to take a LD
vs
11 T7 3+ save wounds but more vulnerable to multi damage weps

Pred is more mobile with M10

Pred gets worse as takes damage but can always file all guns
Havocs obv eventually loose models

TBH its prob a hard call, comes down a lot to playstyle and taste

Good analysis! I would add one more thing. For 12 more points, the predator tank can add a havoc launcher and a combi bolter. That's an additional d6 str 5 shots at 48 inches, plus a combi bolter. Its a lot of dakka. Whereas for 12 more points, the havoc squad adds one more model with a boltgun. I think the Pred edges out slightly. The issue is the vulnerability to multiwound for the Predator. And if you bring three, you really need other bigger targets to distract the opponent. Not a lot of other such targets, unless you have a Lord of Skulls or Magnus.

Thank you for both of you. Hellbrutes with lascanons and missile launchers + alpha legion bonus trait seems pretty good also.

Here is the list I expect to ply (only for tournaments):


Bataillon Detachment World eaters

Dark Apostle (plasma pistol)

Exalted champion (plasma pistol)

3x 10 cultists


Vanguard detachment World eaters

Kharn

5x5 Khorne Berzerkers (chainsword/chainaxes, champ: chainswors/fist)

3x Rhino


Spearhead detachment Alpha Legion

Chaos Lord

5x Hellbrutes (Twin lascanon/missile)


What do you think about this list ?

Thanks again

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Well with the pts adjustments a 4 lascannon pred is coming in at 190pts

For the same price you can get 7 havocs and 4 lascannons.

The havocs can target 4 seperate targets whereas the pred has to target 3.

With the legion rules (whichever you pick) the havocs get that whereas the pred does not.

Then you are looking at:
7 T4 3+ save would who need to take a LD
vs
11 T7 3+ save wounds but more vulnerable to multi damage weps

Pred is more mobile with M10

Pred gets worse as takes damage but can always file all guns
Havocs obv eventually loose models

TBH its prob a hard call, comes down a lot to playstyle and taste

Good analysis! I would add one more thing. For 12 more points, the predator tank can add a havoc launcher and a combi bolter. That's an additional d6 str 5 shots at 48 inches, plus a combi bolter. Its a lot of dakka. Whereas for 12 more points, the havoc squad adds one more model with a boltgun. I think the Pred edges out slightly. The issue is the vulnerability to multiwound for the Predator. And if you bring three, you really need other bigger targets to distract the opponent. Not a lot of other such targets, unless you have a Lord of Skulls or Magnus.

Actually I did the calculation just a couple of minutes ago.
Against Infantry Havocs are better than the Predator.

Havocs with 4 Heavy Bolters
5 damage = 21 pts per damage

Predator with 2 HB, Pred Autocannon, Combi-Bolter, Havoc Launcher
5.7 damage = 30 pts per damage

When you compare AT Havocs with LasCans against LasCan Predators, they will have an more closely matching pts per damage ratio.

I think it largely depends on which Legion you are using.
Alpha Legion definitely use Havoc.
Iron Warriors also Havocs slightly better against Infantry.
The rest you can use whatever you want!

 mrhappyface wrote:

MaxT wrote:
The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.

Hardly since they were already troops in the index and previous codeces.

With obsec and a point drop they would have been stupid as troops. There would be zero point in taking regular troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.

zzzz... didn't think of that, less 1 attack... Oh well. with warlord trait exalted champion, he still gets 1 more attack. And he gets the 3 Juggernaut attacks too. He is still very fierce on the charge.

Actually, in that case, might as well field him as another legion's warlord. lol Black legion, alpha legion, night lords can all have marked characters right? Its just that he won't be as fluffy ecept maybe in a black legion army as the warlord because black legion can have just about anything.

I own 5 jugger lords lol. So I say this with a heavy heart but they really aren't what they used to be. I actually don't care for the ace of blind fury very much now, it eliminates your rerolls as someone else noted and potentially kills friendlies. S8 is also not nearly as big a deal when you consider a normal cheap berserker with a chain axe is s6 -1 ap and only has 2 less attacks. The toughness boost is also less important now since instant death went away. IDK, I actually think a unit of blood crushers is a lot more useful. This is actually a theme really, characters should be providing buffs with a few exceptions while generally there are units that are much better at chopping things up now.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

MaxT wrote:
The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.

Hardly since they were already troops in the index and previous codeces.

With obsec and a point drop they would have been stupid as troops. There would be zero point in taking regular troops.

Not really, people were and still take cultists and people who didn't have WE/EC/DG/TS armies couldn't run them as troops. What's happened now is that chaos players are literally only taking cultists as troops when before it was a variety of cultists and the 4 cult units.

Also, for the cult armies, cult units are regular troops so there really is no problem in having cult troops again.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.

I'd expect an errata for that.

Also remember with D6 extra attacks you don't need the rerolls. Hitting straight on 2 is basically the same as a Power Fist while only costing you a Power Axe.

The Axe of blind fury doesn't give an extra d6 attacks.

Huh. Bizarre.

My point stands on the cheapness though. That's points for maybe another power weapon.

It's not cheap when it costs you your relic slot. I get what you mean but on that note I like a power fist BETTER then the axe. Does basically the same thing since you get -1 to hit but you maintain your reroll 1's and with prescience actually can be improved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

MaxT wrote:
The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.

Hardly since they were already troops in the index and previous codeces.

With obsec and a point drop they would have been stupid as troops. There would be zero point in taking regular troops.

Not really, people were and still take cultists and people who didn't have WE/EC/DG/TS armies couldn't run them as troops. What's happened now is that chaos players are literally only taking cultists as troops when before it was a variety of cultists and the 4 cult units.

Also, for the cult armies, cult units are regular troops so there really is no problem in having cult troops again.

That was kind of a mess but I'll see if I understand your points so bare with me if I missed it. I have a world eaters and an emperors children army, I have plenty of models to run as troops. OR alternatively you can simply take a vanguard detachment. The complaining on the subject has nothing to do with fielding themed armies because the basic rules allows me for example to take my iron warriors army (i know I went full reeetard on chaos armies) from a spearhead detachment which also restrict that armies CP's but whatever. You can't have every fething benefit and no draw backs. If you could field multiple detachments and slot berserkers and noise marines into troops with zero tax or loss of CP's it would be imbalanced. As it is I struggle to find a reason not to give all my units the mark of slaanesh because they gave them the best strategem in the book.

As to the final point you made I assume your talking about death guard and thousand sons which is a total none sequitur since they have their own books and in turn their own internal restrictions.

Just take lesser demons if you have a beef with cultists or marked marines and you MUST take a battalion (even though you clearly don't)

 Red Corsair wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

MaxT wrote:
The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.

Hardly since they were already troops in the index and previous codeces.

With obsec and a point drop they would have been stupid as troops. There would be zero point in taking regular troops.

Not really, people were and still take cultists and people who didn't have WE/EC/DG/TS armies couldn't run them as troops. What's happened now is that chaos players are literally only taking cultists as troops when before it was a variety of cultists and the 4 cult units.

Also, for the cult armies, cult units are regular troops so there really is no problem in having cult troops again.

That was kind of a mess but I'll see if I understand your points so bare with me if I missed it. I have a world eaters and an emperors children army, I have plenty of models to run as troops. OR alternatively you can simply take a vanguard detachment. The complaining on the subject has nothing to do with fielding themed armies because the basic rules allows me for example to take my iron warriors army (i know I went full reeetard on chaos armies) from a spearhead detachment which also restrict that armies CP's but whatever. You can't have every fething benefit and no draw backs. If you could field multiple detachments and slot berserkers and noise marines into troops with zero tax or loss of CP's it would be imbalanced. As it is I struggle to find a reason not to give all my units the mark of slaanesh because they gave them the best strategem in the book.

As to the final point you made I assume your talking about death guard and thousand sons which is a total none sequitur since they have their own books and in turn their own internal restrictions.

Just take lesser demons if you have a beef with cultists or marked marines and you MUST take a battalion (even though you clearly don't)

I was mainly refering to your point that people would take nothing but cult units if they could be taken as troops: that seemed lack a very shallow point seeing as, in the new codex, people will only take cultists as troops. I was making the point that cult units as troops increases variety not decreases it.

Also it has everything to do with themed army lists since it penalises EC/WE/DG/TS armies for taking their armies troops. As for all the benefits and no draw back, how about points? When filling a battalion detachment, you could either farm cp with 40pt units of 10 cultists or 100pt units of 5 Zerkers. You are also restricted by your legion choice, +1A isn't amazing on Zerkers since they already pound whatever they hit into the dirt, you give them WE keyword mainly because you want them as troops otherwise you'd make them AL, Renegade, etc. because the tacitcs and strategems are much better for the Zerkers.

And TS have to wait how long before they get Rubric troops again? How hard would it have been to put it in the book?

As for your last point, it has been discussed before that Lesser Daemons deny both Legion tactics and Obsec so are not a viable troop choice.

Mark me down as salty if all this cult units as elites only is true.

I suppose we all only have to wait a day or so to find out for ourselves on all this.

the_trooper wrote:
Mark me down as salty if all this cult units as elites only is true.

I suppose we all only have to wait a day or so to find out for ourselves on all this.

They're good enough on their own now to warrant an elite slot.
Plus, look at how much people complained about our Loyalist Scum counterparts getting bikes as troops. Well, now everyone gets the same treatment.

the_trooper wrote:
Mark me down as salty if all this cult units as elites only is true.

I suppose we all only have to wait a day or so to find out for ourselves on all this.

Seconded I dont mind Tzzangors but they are niche and you kinda have to build your army around them to make them good. On top of that I NEED lots of CP because of the number of spells being cast. So i am now forced to bring either cultists which i fething despise, or 6 units of Tzzangors which means I basically have my army built for me, and its not any Army I would willingly run.

 mrhappyface wrote:
And TS have to wait how long before they get Rubric troops again? How hard would it have been to put it in the book?

Zero days. As people enjoy making abundantly clear when it benefits them to, TS are denied all the updated crap in the Codex. We're an Index only army so screw you all, I still has troobrics.

 Arkaine wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
And TS have to wait how long before they get Rubric troops again? How hard would it have been to put it in the book?

Zero days. As people enjoy making abundantly clear when it benefits them to, TS are denied all the updated crap in the Codex. We're an Index only army so screw you all, I still has troobrics.

No you don't none of us do.

 Arkaine wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
And TS have to wait how long before they get Rubric troops again? How hard would it have been to put it in the book?

Zero days. As people enjoy making abundantly clear when it benefits them to, TS are denied all the updated crap in the Codex. We're an Index only army so screw you all, I still has troobrics.

Le wut? You would take troop rubrics over cheaper units/wargear across the board, more powers, and more stratagems? Taking a cult unit as a troop instead of Elite is more important to you than having an overall better army? I mean if my opponent said he was using the index over the codex for everything I would just straight up let them gimp themselves all they want but I sure as hell won't.