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Arachnofiend wrote: So wait, Thousand Sons doesn't even get the updated Dark Hereticus discipline or any of the other non-legion-specific stuff? Guess I'm playing a Renegade Chapter until the codex comes out...
Correct, they are no more "Chaos Space Marines" than Space Wolves are "Space Marines"
They share some units but are completely different armies.
Which is odd because they specifically specified that space wolves (and BA/DA) could use updated codex rules and prices for shared models and wargear.
GW is just failing so hard right now.
What the designer probably meant was no cult troops for WE/EC until their special codices come out much later, which is stupid but hey you have CSM to use.
But for DG/Tsons? That means no space marines in the troop slot. Period. Which is mind blowingly idotic.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/12 17:03:21
Captyn_Bob wrote: Anyone see any ways of improving survivability or AL bezerkers infiltrating up close if you don't get first turn?
Forward advance deployment happens AFTER Seize-the-Initiative, etc... so if you fail to go first, deploy them 16+ inches away instead of 9", and preferably in cover somewhere mid-field. Average units will probably be outside move+charge range (not that most sane people want to charge Berserkers), and you'll have you -1BS AL trait, plus a cover save (putting you at 2+).
That's REALLY decent, and in your turn, with Warp Time (and if you don't have a source of Prescience and Warp-Time, shame on you), your Zerkers are right back in "charge whatever they feel like" range. :-)
Warpsmith 87
Combi-Flamer, Frak, Krak, Power Axe, Meltagun, Flamer
Mechatendrils
2d6 flamer shots
meltagun
2 bs4 bolter shots
18" mortal wound on a tank on 2+ !
gonna rock him with my melta havocs in a rhino instead of a chaos lord.
Also is it bad is i basically give all the units in my 'Iron warriors' army <Alpha Legion> and <Slaanesh> XD
I wouldn't, re-rolls to hit of a 1 I personally believe is better than situational vehicle buffs/curses. Then again, I don't run tank armies so what do I know.
Also, thanks for actual tactical discussion rather than rules debates!
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Warpsmith 87
Combi-Flamer, Frak, Krak, Power Axe, Meltagun, Flamer
Mechatendrils
2d6 flamer shots
meltagun
2 bs4 bolter shots
18" mortal wound on a tank on 2+ !
gonna rock him with my melta havocs in a rhino instead of a chaos lord.
Also is it bad is i basically give all the units in my 'Iron warriors' army <Alpha Legion> and <Slaanesh> XD
I wouldn't, re-rolls to hit of a 1 I personally believe is better than situational vehicle buffs/curses. Then again, I don't run tank armies so what do I know.
Also, thanks for actual tactical discussion rather than rules debates!
ofc thats why i made the thread XD
I guess i'm trying to be a bit fluffy at least haha, plus someone gave me some tau drones i'm gonna convert them to carry the flamer and melta! I'v gone worse and given him the mark of khorne and swapped his axe. Thing i have found is melta is just all round good, i'd of given him a combi melta if i had the pts.
One thing thats bugging me is that the freedom the index gave to mix in daemon units is a bit offset now by the fact you'll loose your legion buff. Had to separate my detachments up a bit.
heres how its looking XD
Spoiler:
2000pts Iron Warriors
Battalion
Warpsmith <Khorne, Alpha Legion> 87 hq Combi-Flamer, Frak, Krak, Meltagun, Flamer
Mechatendrils, Power Axe <Axe of Blind Fury>
Super Heavy Auxiliary
Renegade Knight 548 low
Ion Shield, 2x Avenger Gatling Cannons, 2x Heavy Flamers
Heavy Stubber
Another thing thats pretty cool is the card pack for CSM, picked it up has all the malestrom, powers and strats! glad i held off buying the generic cards.
I do feel a bit jilted by the codex is does just seem like the index + strats and some basic traits and powers. not sure i was expecting but the additional stuff just seems a bit of extra slap on the preverbial makup than a new face if you get me (ok i'v been drinkin im not making sense) in a broad sense its quite a lot of content but once you pick your keywords etc your army isnt much different from the index
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/12 18:26:44
Question concerning all this Daemons and detachment talk. Does taking the daemons in their own detachment not count for the detachment the legion troops are in for keeping them battleforged and keeping the goodies? Or doesn't it matter so long as they're in the same army?
- 1250 points
Empire of the Blazing Sun (Combined Theaters)- 1950 points
FUBAR Starship Troopers- Would you like to know more?
GENERATION 9: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Anyone see any ways of improving survivability or AL bezerkers infiltrating up close if you don't get first turn?
Forward advance deployment happens AFTER Seize-the-Initiative, etc... so if you fail to go first, deploy them 16+ inches away instead of 9", and preferably in cover somewhere mid-field. Average units will probably be outside move+charge range (not that most sane people want to charge Berserkers), and you'll have you -1BS AL trait, plus a cover save (putting you at 2+).
That's REALLY decent, and in your turn, with Warp Time (and if you don't have a source of Prescience and Warp-Time, shame on you), your Zerkers are right back in "charge whatever they feel like" range. :-)
..wow I hadn't realised it was after roll offs and seizing.. that's so good.
Warpsmith 87
Combi-Flamer, Frak, Krak, Power Axe, Meltagun, Flamer
Mechatendrils
2d6 flamer shots
meltagun
2 bs4 bolter shots
18" mortal wound on a tank on 2+ !
gonna rock him with my melta havocs in a rhino instead of a chaos lord.
Also is it bad is i basically give all the units in my 'Iron warriors' army <Alpha Legion> and <Slaanesh> XD
I wouldn't, re-rolls to hit of a 1 I personally believe is better than situational vehicle buffs/curses. Then again, I don't run tank armies so what do I know.
Also, thanks for actual tactical discussion rather than rules debates!
ofc thats why i made the thread XD
I guess i'm trying to be a bit fluffy at least haha, plus someone gave me some tau drones i'm gonna convert them to carry the flamer and melta! I'v gone worse and given him the mark of khorne and swapped his axe. Thing i have found is melta is just all round good, i'd of given him a combi melta if i had the pts.
One thing thats bugging me is that the freedom the index gave to mix in daemon units is a bit offset now by the fact you'll loose your legion buff. Had to separate my detachments up a bit.
heres how its looking XD
Spoiler:
2000pts Iron Warriors
Battalion
Warpsmith <Khorne, Alpha Legion> 87 hq Combi-Flamer, Frak, Krak, Meltagun, Flamer
Mechatendrils, Power Axe <Axe of Blind Fury>
Super Heavy Auxiliary
Renegade Knight 548 low
Ion Shield, 2x Avenger Gatling Cannons, 2x Heavy Flamers
Heavy Stubber
Another thing thats pretty cool is the card pack for CSM, picked it up has all the malestrom, powers and strats! glad i held off buying the generic cards.
I do feel a bit jilted by the codex is does just seem like the index + strats and some basic traits and powers. not sure i was expecting but the additional stuff just seems a bit of extra slap on the preverbial makup than a new face if you get me (ok i'v been drinkin im not making sense) in a broad sense its quite a lot of content but once you pick your keywords etc your army isnt much different from the index
And then those who play one of the four God Legions (or, god forbid, play all of the God legions) have to buy another codex in a month to a year.
As for your list, wondering if it would be wiser to drop the Helbrute for more Oblits in order to get the most milage out of your strategems.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Couple things: 1) Forward Operatives definitely allows the unit to move normally during its first turn 2) If everything in your list is <Alpha Legion>, calling your army, "Iron Warriors" can and will cause confusion. Even if all your stuff is painted Iron Warriors colors, just call everything <Alpha Legion>.
So if I'm interpreting my new CSM Codex correctly....
1) Magnus can choose his 3 powers from the full list of 6 Dark Hereticus Discipline powers in the book, because it just says that anyone that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline uses that list.
2) We've already established that as he has the Tzeentch and Hereticus Astartes keywords, that you can cast Weaver of Fates on him, for an amazingly durable 3++ re-rolling 1's monster.
3) Magnus CANNOT however choose to trade one of his Dark Hereticus powers for Weaver of Fates, because the book only allows <Mark of Chaos> Psykers to trade for the appropriate Mark of Chaos power, because he only has the Tzeentch keyword, not Mark of Tzeentch (god I hate the way GW is handling keywords).
This means if you want uber-buffed Magnus, you have to take some otherwise inferior CSM Daemon Prince(s) to get access to Weaver of Fates, and have said Prince(s) follow Magnus around and cast the buff on him. Not the end of the world because the prince can hide behind Magnus to avoid being targeted, and you can still designate the Prince as a Thousand Sons DP per the index, allowing Magnus to give them re-roll 1's on their invul, recovering some of the durability they would otherwise lose by being a CSM Prince rather than Chaos Daemons Prince, and thus losing Ephemeral Form.
Just shows that uber-Magnus will require a bit more maneuvering to execute, and also makes it a bit more vulnerable to being Denied because the Princes don't enjoy Magnus' +2 to cast powers. But definitely worth the effort!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/12 20:20:34
Sokhar wrote: So if I'm interpreting my new CSM Codex correctly....
1) Magnus can choose his 3 powers from the full list of 6 Dark Hereticus Discipline powers in the book, because it just says that anyone that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline uses that list.
2) We've already established that as he has the Tzeentch and Hereticus Astartes keywords, that you can cast Weaver of Fates on him, for an amazingly durable 3++ re-rolling 1's monster.
3) Magnus CANNOT however choose to trade one of his Dark Hereticus powers for Weaver of Fates, because the book only allows <Mark of Chaos> Psykers to trade for the appropriate Mark of Chaos power, because he only has the Tzeentch keyword, not Mark of Tzeentch (god I hate the way GW is handling keywords).
This means if you want uber-buffed Magnus, you have to take some otherwise inferior CSM Daemon Prince(s) to get access to Weaver of Fates, and have said Prince(s) follow Magnus around and cast the buff on him. Not the end of the world because the prince can hide behind Magnus to avoid being targeted, and you can still designate the Prince as a Thousand Sons DP per the index, allowing Magnus to give them re-roll 1's on their invul, recovering some of the durability they would otherwise lose by being a CSM Prince rather than Chaos Daemons Prince, and thus losing Ephemeral Form.
Just shows that uber-Magnus will require a bit more maneuvering to execute, and also makes it a bit more vulnerable to being Denied because the Princes don't enjoy Magnus' +2 to cast powers. But definitely worth the effort!
Re-read the <MARK OF CHAOS> rule: it says to swap the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword with either the Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch or Slaanesh keyword. Nothing in the index or Codex has MARK OF TZEENTCH in their keyword list. This means Magnus does have access to this power.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Sokhar wrote: 3) Magnus CANNOT however choose to trade one of his Dark Hereticus powers for Weaver of Fates, because the book only allows <Mark of Chaos> Psykers to trade for the appropriate Mark of Chaos power, because he only has the Tzeentch keyword, not Mark of Tzeentch (god I hate the way GW is handling keywords).
I don't think that's how it works actually. Look at the <Mark of Chaos> rules on pg 116. It states that some datasheets specify the Mark of Chaos for a unit, giving the Khorne keyword as an example. I think <Mark of Chaos>, like <Legion>, is a catch all term that includes MULTIPLE viable entries. In this case, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh are all viable <Mark of Chaos> keyword substitutes. Since Magnus has Tzeentch in his faction keywords as well, he appears to already be assumed as having the Mark of Tzeentch.
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
Cool. That was the way I had assumed it worked when the powers were first spoiled. I just came over-thought it looking at the "Mark of Chaos Psychic Powers" provision and how each power was labeled "Mark of Tzeentch," "Mark of Nurgle," etc. You are correct though that said units would end up with the "Tzeentch" keyword, not "Mark of Tzeentch."
So absolutely no reason not to run uber-Magnus, if you just happen to be a fan of big Tzeentch guys smashing face.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/12 20:30:04
I have been thinking about running a epidimious list. Since mutilators have the daemon keyword and can also take the Nurgle keyword, they would add to the tally mans tally.
I have been thinking about running a epidimious list. Since mutilators have the daemon keyword and can also take the Nurgle keyword, they would add to the tally mans tally.
No they are still overcosted and possessed being buffed made mutilators look even worse, they should have gone up to toughness 5 at there price tag.
Note regarding Uber Magnus: Page 156 states "Note that DG and TS deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section ..."
What're the rules in that section? Page 156: "These rules include the abilities below and a series of stratagems. This section also includes CSM Warlord Traits, Psychic Disciplines, Relics, and Tactical Objectives"
Thus, even though the discipline is Dark Hereticus, it seems Magnus is not allowed to use these psychic power.
I have been thinking about running a epidimious list. Since mutilators have the daemon keyword and can also take the Nurgle keyword, they would add to the tally mans tally.
Well, their fluff in the Codex is pretty sweet. Otherwise no.
Jackal444 wrote: Note regarding Uber Magnus: Page 156 states "Note that DG and TS deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section ..."
What're the rules in that section? Page 156: "These rules include the abilities below and a series of stratagems. This section also includes CSM Warlord Traits, Psychic Disciplines, Relics, and Tactical Objectives"
Thus, even though the discipline is Dark Hereticus, it seems Magnus is not allowed to use these psychic power.
That raises an issue, though it seems a bit of a stretch that he can pick powers from the Dark Hereticus discipline included in the index, but not the identically named, and 50% identical Dark Hereticus discipline included in the new codex.
What do we reckon to Dreadclaw contents? My last new unit before 8ed landed was Plasma Havocs with Icon of Excess, I'm painting up a DC and looking forward to dropping in this lot.
My meta is mostly Power Levels and the price cut on Chosen makes them a no-brainer compared to Havocs for this sort of close ranged firefight. Gonna get a quad of combi-plasmas to make Overwatch really hurt.
For their passenger, I'm leaning towards a melta-fist Lord... perhaps with Talisman of Burning Blood for some nasty surprises, but I'm Word Bearers and there's a lot of nasty things that can be accomplished by a steadfast deep insertion character with twelve Reinforcement PLoints.
I'm going to try a Sorcerer as well... Prescience is a risky way to work around overheats, so I'm inclined to still include the Lord. Delightful Agonies has some merit, but what really interests me is Warptime on the Dreadclaw. Drop that in the middle of a bunch of infantry support units and it's going to leave a mark, possibly eat a hero as well. Possibility for Death Hex as well, and Familiars look like an interesting way to blindside. BUT it's dependent on finding a drop zone near key targets without DTW coverage...
I'm a ways off from dropping a Kharybdis full of Berzerkers and Warptiming them into a bloodbath, though.
I'd love to Warptime Advance twenty Renegade Possessed of Slaanesh with Agonies and a Fabius Bile boost but I'm doing Word Bearers, it'd feel like saying yellow-clad Astartes with fist insignia are actually Ultramarines.
Huh. He can't enhance a unit on the turn it boards a transport. There goes the idea of boosting some Mutilators as they get in a Land Raider. Unless... they Warptime aboard, but that's a waste compared to giving something else a first turn charge.
Could work as an interception thing. Bile enhances some Possessed and waved them goodbye, enemy's dropped in some shock troops, butchered the Cultist screen, threatening the support units... drop in the muties, Bile enhances them, and have a familiar switch out a sorcerer's havocs-friendly spells for Warptime, and it's clobbering time. Eh, but it's such a small unit, if there's a Thunder Hammer to hand they're still getting squished. Can't even add more Muties, which if you could you may as well spend the points on Terminators instead. Unless you're doing a niche thing with Epidemius and Nurgle Daemon units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/13 01:20:30
Hi people. I have jsut received Kharn as a gift. What is the overall tactica for World Eaters (beside ''using Khorne Berzerkers and a Dark Apostle'") ?
How do you get the most out of their legion trait, warlord traits and artefacts ?
Khornate25 wrote: Hi people. I have jsut received Kharn as a gift. What is the overall tactica for World Eaters (beside ''using Khorne Berzerkers and a Dark Apostle'") ?
How do you get the most out of their legion trait, warlord traits and artefacts ?
Get some Tyrannocytes, saw off and switch around their mouths and butts, use them as Dreadclaws, three of them and an Apostle is an extra CP & delivers a load of zerks into charge range.
Khârn and a Berzerker blob can easily play musical chairs to make sure they get his re-rolls and then pile in to a safe distance when Gorechild starts swinging. It's not difficult to make the Tcyte conversion into a Kharybdis.
Bikers seem good and Axe Of Blind Rage Juggerlord is still a viable accomplice.
Havoc Launcher Rhinos are pretty decent. Havocs with a Lord are solid, whatever your Legion.
If you wanna get beardy than getting another Legion's Supreme Command of Sorcerers on Discs or Bikes or Steeds give mobile access to DTW coverage, Warptime, Prescience, Death Hex, Diabolical Strength... dishonour Khârn with that and watch the heads really roll
I got my codex today and the first thing that stuck out to me was that the Renegade Legion Trait was just better than the Emperor's Children one. Then looking at the actual Slaanesh: artifacts, stratagems and warlord traits; compared to the Emperor's Children specific artifact, stratagem and warlord trait. Blissgiver is garbage, compared to Intoxication Elixir. Stimulated by Pain is nice but all of the generic Warlord Trait are good as is Inspiring Presence from the main rule book. As for Stratagems the Endless Cacophony for shooting twice is generic Slaaneshi. While the EC on Excess of Violence 1CP for +1 attack "if" you kill something, isn't great unless its Terminators, Warp Talons, or Power Sword equipped Chosen. You do miss out on Veterans of the Long War for +1 to wound. Which along with loosing access to the Sonic Dreadnought is the only real negative to just taking a Slaaneshi Renegade Force instead. Or at the very least taken any melee oriented units in a Slaaneshi Renegade detachment.
For instance since CP are shared over the entire army. You would take a Slaaneshi <Renegade> Battalion and kit the those CSM troops, that get nothing the EC legion trait out with chain swords and take advantage of Advance & Charge. Melee Chosen and Terminators are also better taken in a renegade force as well since they can still use Endless Cacophony. Then take a <Emperor's Children> Vanguard for your shooting units or models you want to take EC specific gear on.
The only thing to be mindful of in a mixed force would be characters auras are specific to units with their legion trait. Fortunately, Sorcerers are agnostic in that the power either work for all Heretic Astarte or are Slaanesh Specific.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/13 02:58:44
Jackal444 wrote: Note regarding Uber Magnus: Page 156 states "Note that DG and TS deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section ..."
What're the rules in that section? Page 156: "These rules include the abilities below and a series of stratagems. This section also includes CSM Warlord Traits, Psychic Disciplines, Relics, and Tactical Objectives"
Thus, even though the discipline is Dark Hereticus, it seems Magnus is not allowed to use these psychic power.
Actually on looking at the full text that you're citing parts of, I think you read that wrong. The line that mentions Death Guard and Thousand Sons is printed on the section detailing what "Chaos Space Marine units" are, to wit, units with the <Legion> keyword. The "rules or abilities in this section" is referring to Despoilers of the Galaxy and Legion Traits, as those are explained immediately afterwards. Each one of those other sections you describe (Warlord Traits, Relics, and Tactical Objectives) all include the necessary pre-requisites for your army to benefit from them--Stratagems require a CSM Detachment, Relics require your army to be led by a CSM Warlord, Warlord traits require a CSM Warlord, and Tactical Objectives also require a CSM Warlord.
Dark Hereticus though, includes no such stipulations. Where the other sections detail first what you have to do to unlock those benefits, Dark Hereticus simply states "Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERS that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline using the table below." No mention of Chaos Space Marines, or any other such requirements. Just that they have to be a pskyer, and one that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline. So Magnus is in. Be'lakor as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/13 02:03:47
So, I've decided to make the most out of having to take non-Noise Marine as troops. So I'm taking some "allied" Flawless Host" and "Silken Death" Slaaneshi renegades with my Emperor's Children to fill out a battalion and abuse the renegade Legion Trait. What would be the best option for Renegade CSM looking to get into melee? I was thinking take three 5 man units to meet the minimum requirement for the battalion. Put two with bolt pistols, chain swords in a rhino, with two flamers and two combi-flamers so they can still advance and charge. While holding the other on a backfield objective. Or take two units of 9 bolt pistols and chain swords in a rhino with a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion. Run them forward to an objective; maybe teleport some Terminators/Obliterators in as support. As well as Sorcerer on a bike with biker that can now advance and charge. Then summon some Fiends to lock the enemy in place. Then take a Vanguard Detachment of Emperors Children for my Daemon Prince and Sonic Dreadnoughts.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/13 03:21:02
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
- 1250 points
