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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he womt lost the turn.

So your argument for Magnus being bad is that:

1) he can be targeted
2) he might lose his invulnerable save
3) he might not cast his +1 save power

1) you're right. He can be targeted. At great cost and in a horribly inefficient way. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot at him, but if you try, expect it to take multiple turns at minimum and for it to be very difficult. The problem with this line of thinking is that you do it in a vacuum. What makes you think that the Chaos player won't kill the very things that can kill Magnus? Is the only thing in a Chaos list that you have to care about Magnus? Then great you win on turn 3 most likely! But if there are other things that you HAVE to deal with (hi berserkers) or things that are going to kill your long range firepower (hi berserkers) before turn 3, then maybe killing Magnus won't be as easy as you think.

2) So this means that you're casting a psychic power within 24" of Magnus. Good luck with that. Hope he decides not to try and deny that with a +2 bonus.

3) So this means that you're counting on him to fail with +2 to cast and a CP re-roll if need be, without you being able to deny if he doesn't want you to. He has more than enough mobility to cast from outside your deny range.

Wouldn't go placing any bets on these things my friend.

Having played at the same event as two Chaos players this weekend who are almost certainly going to be playing for the big prize on day 3 at NOVA, I can say with certainty that he's good enough to be in every player's tournament list. They would have taken him without a second thought even if he didn't get access to the new psychic powers. Now it's even better for Magnus. Ask the 3-peat adepticon champion I played in round 1 if you doubt me.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
One of the benefits of the Maulerfiends over the Bloodslaughteres is that they can be targeted by the god specific powers; improve inv, -1 to hit, or +5 FnP. These can be effected by herald buffs too right?

This is also why I feel that Lord of Skulls is much better than renegade knight now with its decrease in points. Lord of skulls can benefit from being part of the same legion because it has the legion and heretic astartes keyword. Lord of skulls also have the Khorne keyword. So, this means that characters of the same legion can lend their auras to the lord of skulls and this means that even a daemon prince of Khorne of a different legion can also still lend its reroll to hit on 1 aura to the LOS because both are Khorne Daemons. (LOS is a daemon). And statline wise, a LOS is better than a renegade knight. Also, LOS can benefit from use of CSM strategems like daemoforge while the renegade knight cannot.

All good points, and if you really want a knight, just run a kytan for all the reasons you list for the LOS.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he womt lost the turn.

So your argument for Magnus being bad is that:

1) he can be targeted
2) he might lose his invulnerable save
3) he might not cast his +1 save power

1) you're right. He can be targeted. At great cost and in a horribly inefficient way. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot at him, but if you try, expect it to take multiple turns at minimum and for it to be very difficult. The problem with this line of thinking is that you do it in a vacuum. What makes you think that the Chaos player won't kill the very things that can kill Magnus? Is the only thing in a Chaos list that you have to care about Magnus? Then great you win on turn 3 most likely! But if there are other things that you HAVE to deal with (hi berserkers) or things that are going to kill your long range firepower (hi berserkers) before turn 3, then maybe killing Magnus won't be as easy as you think.

2) So this means that you're casting a psychic power within 24" of Magnus. Good luck with that. Hope he decides not to try and deny that with a +2 bonus.

3) So this means that you're counting on him to fail with +2 to cast and a CP re-roll if need be, without you being able to deny if he doesn't want you to. He has more than enough mobility to cast from outside your deny range.

Wouldn't go placing any bets on these things my friend.

Having played at the same event as two Chaos players this weekend who are almost certainly going to be playing for the big prize on day 3 at NOVA, I can say with certainty that he's good enough to be in every player's tournament list. They would have taken him without a second thought even if he didn't get access to the new psychic powers. Now it's even better for Magnus. Ask the 3-peat adepticon champion I played in round 1 if you doubt me.

Yeah, Guilliman lists probably won't be doing any of this. Sisters of Silence on the other hand... guaranteed to shut down even Magnus.

 lindsay40k wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Anyone got any ideas about running a daemon bomb type list? I run Word Bearers and am thinking that summoning 30 bloodletters right on top of someone will be an enjoyable experience. The biggest issue is that it's hard to get in position for a turn 2 summon without getting yourself killed. I'm thinking a flying DP or jump pack sorceror are the best options, because anyone in a transport can't summon after they disembark.

Dreadclaw with Slaaneshi Possessed and a Sorcerer with Delightful Agonies, that's 18 Wounds the enemy have to get past 3+/5++ & FNP and 10 they have to get past T7 & 3+ before they are allowed to target the character. Throw in Warptime as well, and either of those units will also wreak havoc on arrival. Throw in a second DC with Plasma Chosen and a Lord for a second Summoner who can bring out the Bloodletters, and a deep insertion force it's almost impossible to get through in a single turn to kill the summoners.

Bonus - if you don't have anything else to cast it on, the Sorcerer can Warptime himself forwards after summoning.

Ooh I hadn't really thought about using a dreadclaw and I think that's an excellent idea. The second dreadclaw bomb sounds good too but I've got some plasma terminators who are filling that role for the time being.

Another cool idea is to summon in a Slaaneshi Herald to cast Hysterical Frenzy on the Possessed if they are still in combat in the following turn.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
One of the benefits of the Maulerfiends over the Bloodslaughteres is that they can be targeted by the god specific powers; improve inv, -1 to hit, or +5 FnP. These can be effected by herald buffs too right?

This is also why I feel that Lord of Skulls is much better than renegade knight now with its decrease in points. Lord of skulls can benefit from being part of the same legion because it has the legion and heretic astartes keyword. Lord of skulls also have the Khorne keyword. So, this means that characters of the same legion can lend their auras to the lord of skulls and this means that even a daemon prince of Khorne of a different legion can also still lend its reroll to hit on 1 aura to the LOS because both are Khorne Daemons. (LOS is a daemon). And statline wise, a LOS is better than a renegade knight. Also, LOS can benefit from use of CSM strategems like daemoforge while the renegade knight cannot.

All good points, and if you really want a knight, just run a kytan for all the reasons you list for the LOS.

Probably still better to run a LoS at that point since ravanger is 514 and los is I believe 607. Extra wounds, more attacks. He's almost so big unless you have a ton of anti tank he won't die in a game. Just have to make sure he scores you enough kills back or becomes enough of a threat your opponent keeps targeting him and leaves your other guys alone

How does the hell forged leviathan stack up to the knight and Lord of skulls it seems to have superior ranged firepower especially of fire frenzy works on them.

It also has 98.8% accuracy if supported by a lord due to its 2+ ballistic skill and it is almost as durable as a land raider missing out on a mere 2 wounds (though it does have a 5++/4++ invulnerable save and it can also be buffed with the slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle defensive buff spells.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he womt lost the turn.

So your argument for Magnus being bad is that:

1) he can be targeted
2) he might lose his invulnerable save
3) he might not cast his +1 save power

1) you're right. He can be targeted. At great cost and in a horribly inefficient way. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot at him, but if you try, expect it to take multiple turns at minimum and for it to be very difficult. The problem with this line of thinking is that you do it in a vacuum. What makes you think that the Chaos player won't kill the very things that can kill Magnus? Is the only thing in a Chaos list that you have to care about Magnus? Then great you win on turn 3 most likely! But if there are other things that you HAVE to deal with (hi berserkers) or things that are going to kill your long range firepower (hi berserkers) before turn 3, then maybe killing Magnus won't be as easy as you think.

2) So this means that you're casting a psychic power within 24" of Magnus. Good luck with that. Hope he decides not to try and deny that with a +2 bonus.

3) So this means that you're counting on him to fail with +2 to cast and a CP re-roll if need be, without you being able to deny if he doesn't want you to. He has more than enough mobility to cast from outside your deny range.

Wouldn't go placing any bets on these things my friend.

Having played at the same event as two Chaos players this weekend who are almost certainly going to be playing for the big prize on day 3 at NOVA, I can say with certainty that he's good enough to be in every player's tournament list. They would have taken him without a second thought even if he didn't get access to the new psychic powers. Now it's even better for Magnus. Ask the 3-peat adepticon champion I played in round 1 if you doubt me.

I wouldn't say every list should take Magnus (he's mostly a big target in... I think it's Cephalobeard's list, for example, since that list revolves around having so many small characters nothing is a target) but he's certainly a lot better than TSS claims, which is largely the case with anything Thousand Sons related he talks about.

Being targeted is a huge issue that does leave him to just die on turn 1, I'm not gonna dispute this because it has happened to me personally, but to claim that Weaver of Fates isn't a huge boon that almost entirely fixes this issue is absurd. Having a 3+ reroll 1's save against everything is absurd, and yes, as you said if you let WoF be denied on turn 1 that's just absolutely terrible positioning on your part.

 Rydria wrote:
How does the hell forged leviathan stack up to the knight and Lord of skulls it seems to have superior ranged firepower especially of fire frenzy works on them.

It also has 98.8% accuracy if supported by a lord due to its 2+ ballistic skill and it is almost as durable as a land raider missing out on a mere 2 wounds (though it does have a 5++/4++ invulnerable save and it can also be buffed with the slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle defensive buff spells.

Well, LOS is more durable because it has more wounds. I have seen shooty lists take out a land raider in one turn. But have yet to see shooting take out a LOS within one turn. It would have to be a really shooty list.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
How does the hell forged leviathan stack up to the knight and Lord of skulls it seems to have superior ranged firepower especially of fire frenzy works on them.

It also has 98.8% accuracy if supported by a lord due to its 2+ ballistic skill and it is almost as durable as a land raider missing out on a mere 2 wounds (though it does have a 5++/4++ invulnerable save and it can also be buffed with the slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle defensive buff spells.

Well, LOS is more durable because it has more wounds. I have seen shooty lists take out a land raider in one turn. But have yet to see shooting take out a LOS within one turn. It would have to be a really shooty list.

In a tournament I was just playing in, we had a Necron player use a Pylon to blow up a Shadowsword with just one shot. I can't imagine that the Lord of Skulls would fare much better against something like that. But your point stands.

Isn't pylon one of these things who are a silver bullet pick - awesome if the enemy has superheavies, but an outright waste otherwise?

Short Question about the new Troop Demons.

They don't have the Legion Keyword and the Legion Trait says:

"If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTE units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain a Legion Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment
is from the same Legion.The Legion Trait gained depends upon the Legion they are
from, as shown in the table opposite. For example, allsuch unitsin a NIGHT LORDS Detachment gain... "

This means my Detachment loses the Legion Trait when i put demons as troops into it?

Can anyone tell me if the "Aspiring Sorcerer" issue has been solved ?

How much does he cost in the new Chaos Codex ?

No point cost in codex, point Cost for Rubric also say 5-20. So there are many point costs posible and we need a FAQ.

elodingens wrote:
Short Question about the new Troop Demons.

They don't have the Legion Keyword and the Legion Trait says:

"If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTE units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain a Legion Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment
is from the same Legion.The Legion Trait gained depends upon the Legion they are
from, as shown in the table opposite. For example, allsuch unitsin a NIGHT LORDS Detachment gain... "

This means my Detachment loses the Legion Trait when i put demons as troops into it?

That is correct they'll loose it.

Weird thing is i don't 'think' it applies to reserve points that you then use to summon daemons

Summoned reserves arent part of detachments so that's fine. The only reason daemons are in the chaos marine dex is so you can use summoning abilities without buying a different book.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range thats with the -1 from the changling.Gulliman gets hit with that spell and he laughs as your forced to shoot at his tac marines instead. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he won't lost the turn.

MegaMags get 2+ on his deny and I'd spend a CP to re-roll that too...

MegaMags is gross now. Can't wait to play him in a tourney in a few weeks! Along with Aetaos and a few Giant Spawns...

saint_red wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Anyone got any ideas about running a daemon bomb type list? I run Word Bearers and am thinking that summoning 30 bloodletters right on top of someone will be an enjoyable experience. The biggest issue is that it's hard to get in position for a turn 2 summon without getting yourself killed. I'm thinking a flying DP or jump pack sorceror are the best options, because anyone in a transport can't summon after they disembark.

Dreadclaw with Slaaneshi Possessed and a Sorcerer with Delightful Agonies, that's 18 Wounds the enemy have to get past 3+/5++ & FNP and 10 they have to get past T7 & 3+ before they are allowed to target the character. Throw in Warptime as well, and either of those units will also wreak havoc on arrival. Throw in a second DC with Plasma Chosen and a Lord for a second Summoner who can bring out the Bloodletters, and a deep insertion force it's almost impossible to get through in a single turn to kill the summoners.

Bonus - if you don't have anything else to cast it on, the Sorcerer can Warptime himself forwards after summoning.

Ooh I hadn't really thought about using a dreadclaw and I think that's an excellent idea. The second dreadclaw bomb sounds good too but I've got some plasma terminators who are filling that role for the time being.

Another cool idea is to summon in a Slaaneshi Herald to cast Hysterical Frenzy on the Possessed if they are still in combat in the following turn.

Hmm, that'd require either postponing the Daemon bomb or having a second character in play. I think there's things to be said for bringing a Herald in this list, put her on a Steed and pay a Troops tax with some Nurglings, and if you successfully Warptime the Possessed she can make their alpha strike S6 - marginal, I know, but she can also potentially Summon some Fiends or Seekers or a twin on turn two.

Actually, giving the deployed one Symphony of Pain will give her something to do turn one if she's going to summon a twin.

Additional option: take her in a Supreme Command detachment - Word Bearers Characters don't suffer for not being in a WB detachment, and a bunch of extra Chaos Lords are potent force multipliers.

Final point: I'm working towards a Daemon bomb ploy myself, going to focus on Nurgle with his Oblits and Daemon Engines in play, and bring out Epidemius. In larger games he can easily bring an overwhelming advantage.

 Rydria wrote:
How does the hell forged leviathan stack up to the knight and Lord of skulls it seems to have superior ranged firepower especially of fire frenzy works on them.

It also has 98.8% accuracy if supported by a lord due to its 2+ ballistic skill and it is almost as durable as a land raider missing out on a mere 2 wounds (though it does have a 5++/4++ invulnerable save and it can also be buffed with the slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle defensive buff spells.

Levi has half as many wounds. 14 compared to LOS at 28. He is for sure more shooty, just have to make sure he cant move or your a 3+ also. More of a light vehicle multi wound infantry killer. Even then, the butcher cannon is so so.

Best use for a levi is alpha legion and have him come in near a character and double soul burner it to try to whipe it out. Could shoot it 3 times. 1 normal, 1 from hellbrute special, 1 from mark of slaanesh. That's 12d3 mortal wounds that work on a 2+. Expensive at 330 ish points but could be good.

Los and Levi are just for different roles so hard to compare. LOS is better in melee, as a much larger threat that can willy nilly charge deep into enemy ranks and absorb more fire

str00dles1 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
How does the hell forged leviathan stack up to the knight and Lord of skulls it seems to have superior ranged firepower especially of fire frenzy works on them.

It also has 98.8% accuracy if supported by a lord due to its 2+ ballistic skill and it is almost as durable as a land raider missing out on a mere 2 wounds (though it does have a 5++/4++ invulnerable save and it can also be buffed with the slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle defensive buff spells.

Levi has half as many wounds. 14 compared to LOS at 28. He is for sure more shooty, just have to make sure he cant move or your a 3+ also. More of a light vehicle multi wound infantry killer. Even then, the butcher cannon is so so.

Best use for a levi is alpha legion and have him come in near a character and double soul burner it to try to whipe it out. Could shoot it 3 times. 1 normal, 1 from hellbrute special, 1 from mark of slaanesh. That's 12d3 mortal wounds that work on a 2+. Expensive at 330 ish points but could be good.

Los and Levi are just for different roles so hard to compare. LOS is better in melee, as a much larger threat that can willy nilly charge deep into enemy ranks and absorb more fire

I still personally think the Levi is a brilliant Horde killer with double Grav-Flux, must I reiterate: 14d3 shots vs 30 man Ork Blob, 22d3 shots vs 50 man Guard blobs and 6d3 shots vs any 10 man unit all at S9 AP-5 D2! How am I the only one seeing the Horde killing potential here?

What is better in your opinion :

lascannon havocs, lascannon predator or a defiler ?

str00dles1 wrote:


Levi has half as many wounds. 14 compared to LOS at 28. He is for sure more shooty, just have to make sure he cant move or your a 3+ also. More of a light vehicle multi wound infantry killer. Even then, the butcher cannon is so so.

Best use for a levi is alpha legion and have him come in near a character and double soul burner it to try to whipe it out. Could shoot it 3 times. 1 normal, 1 from hellbrute special, 1 from mark of slaanesh. That's 12d3 mortal wounds that work on a 2+. Expensive at 330 ish points but could be good.

Los and Levi are just for different roles so hard to compare. LOS is better in melee, as a much larger threat that can willy nilly charge deep into enemy ranks and absorb more fire

They definitely do different things. The lord of skulls is close to being competitive with his cost reduction but a maulerfiend is better. The leviathan is pretty shooty but when you double fire, you have to shoot it at the closest target. That kills it competitively. And you can't triple shoot it. The slaanesh stratagem is only for infantry or biker units.

Can anyone give me a reason why I would take combi-melta over plasma on my Terminators? Plasma has more range and double the shots at 12" whilst still doing 2 damage per shot. Crunching the numbers: plasma is better at 24" cause melta isn't in range, plasma is better at 12" because double the shots counters the lower damage and they are about equal at 6". As well as this, because melta is fewer shots, melta is far more likely to be shut down by a one of command re-roll on a save.

Why would I pay more for melta?

 mrhappyface wrote:
Can anyone give me a reason why I would take combi-melta over plasma on my Terminators? Plasma has more range and double the shots at 12" whilst still doing 2 damage per shot. Crunching the numbers: plasma is better at 24" cause melta isn't in range, plasma is better at 12" because double the shots counters the lower damage and they are about equal at 6". As well as this, because melta is fewer shots, melta is far more likely to be shut down by a one of command re-roll on a save.

Why would I pay more for melta?

I think the general consensus is you wouldn't. Meltas are better when they are within 6, because of better AP and slightly higher damage average, but plasma is more versatile.

Of course, you would normally lose 3 models for overcharging 10 rapid fire plasma, but because of the availibility of rerolls of 1 to hit, plasma users gets to have their cake and eat it too, which kinda leaves melta and grav in the dust.

Would a pair of maulerfiends compare to LOS? Similar price, but obviously no shooting on them. With their update, they have solid damage. I'm wondering if the speed of the Blood Slaughterer is worth taking it over maulerfiends. 2 of them is a little over a LOS, but still close.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
Would a pair of maulerfiends compare to LOS? Similar price, but obviously no shooting on them. With their update, they have solid damage. I'm wondering if the speed of the Blood Slaughterer is worth taking it over maulerfiends. 2 of them is a little over a LOS, but still close.

Well a LOS would power bomb both of them so no...

Ok, still trying to decide which big heavy hitter to add to my army. Originally was going with a pair of Bloodslaughteres, but then Maulerfiends got an update. Brass scorpion is an amazing model and seems like a solid unit, but its a bit of a point sink. I really dont like the LOS model that much, the katyan is just a much cooler looking piece, but with points drop on the LOS, its hard to pass up now.

Plasma does seem far better than Melta, at close range rolling twice and picking the best is about 4.5W, that said AP-4 has marginal advantages. Probably not enough to compete with Plasma's ability to drop two Primaris or Terminators, though - and there'll even be times when a Melta only puts one wound on a 2W target. TBH I think the availability of rerolls makes their costs unbalanced, that said we've yet to see how many enemy units will end up with hit modifiers.

 Khornate25 wrote:
What is better in your opinion :

lascannon havocs, lascannon predator or a defiler ?

Well if it's Alpha Legion the Havocs get a tasty boost to endurance. I'm quite liking the Predator, it's mobility could be handy - both for getting LOS and escaping deep insertion ploys. Defiler seems to occupy a pretty different niche to each of the others? It's more something you castle around and run up to deep insertion forces to flame and punch them. Which can make it more efficient than taking one of the others and a counter-attack unit. Unfortunately it's BS means it will kill fewer tanks if it's concentrating on shooting, and when it's sallying out it's not shooting anything at all. Nice endurance, though. With Oblits and Changeling, it could really be though to take out.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
Would a pair of maulerfiends compare to LOS? Similar price, but obviously no shooting on them. With their update, they have solid damage. I'm wondering if the speed of the Blood Slaughterer is worth taking it over maulerfiends. 2 of them is a little over a LOS, but still close.

Well, if the Maulers are Tzeentchian, they could benefit from Changleing auras and even Weaver, if they're going to be punching a knoght'a lights out there's that. Also they bring resistance to some of the more extreme LoW attacks, I saw one of the big tanks blow up a knight in one shot last week. Whereas if they're Slaaneshi they can get Agonies and Frenzy. Or if Nurglitch, Miasma and Epidemius buffs. So again it depends to an extent what synergy your army presents.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
Ok, still trying to decide which big heavy hitter to add to my army. Originally was going with a pair of Bloodslaughteres, but then Maulerfiends got an update. Brass scorpion is an amazing model and seems like a solid unit, but its a bit of a point sink. I really dont like the LOS model that much, the katyan is just a much cooler looking piece, but with points drop on the LOS, its hard to pass up now.

If I had the cash, I'd definitely get a Brass Scorpion. Doesn't matter if it's the competitive option, it just looks too nice.

@lindsay40k my army is khorne-themed iron warriors, so I use world eater tactics. However, I do include some Alpha Legion fire support, always atleast one jump pack sorcerer, and a pair of DPs (1 khorne, the other can be any of the 3). I know the scorpion looks amazing, but it is expensive in both points and real money and I dont really want to buy it if I'm never going to use it.

 Khornate25 wrote:
What is better in your opinion :

lascannon havocs, lascannon predator or a defiler ?

Las Havocs with any legion. its very slightly more points then a full las predator but it toss them in cover and you get a 2+ save 10 bodies that don't degrade when they take damage. And you can take 6 damage before you loose a las cannon.

Preds are nice, and yes you can sped a strat to move and fire I believe without the -1 but they are way for frail. 2 Las hits and your pred is pretty screwed.

Defilers are total garbage