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TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
Would a pair of maulerfiends compare to LOS? Similar price, but obviously no shooting on them. With their update, they have solid damage. I'm wondering if the speed of the Blood Slaughterer is worth taking it over maulerfiends. 2 of them is a little over a LOS, but still close.

2 Maulerfiends similar price to Lord of Skulls? Uhmm....wanna try again? Maulerfiends are like 152 fully-kitted, just the LoS BODY costs 350, and then you have to buy guns for it....that runs another 250. So a fair comparison is actually 4 Maulerfiends vs a Lord of Skulls.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he womt lost the turn.

So your argument for Magnus being bad is that:

1) he can be targeted
2) he might lose his invulnerable save
3) he might not cast his +1 save power

1) you're right. He can be targeted. At great cost and in a horribly inefficient way. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot at him, but if you try, expect it to take multiple turns at minimum and for it to be very difficult. The problem with this line of thinking is that you do it in a vacuum. What makes you think that the Chaos player won't kill the very things that can kill Magnus? Is the only thing in a Chaos list that you have to care about Magnus? Then great you win on turn 3 most likely! But if there are other things that you HAVE to deal with (hi berserkers) or things that are going to kill your long range firepower (hi berserkers) before turn 3, then maybe killing Magnus won't be as easy as you think.

2) So this means that you're casting a psychic power within 24" of Magnus. Good luck with that. Hope he decides not to try and deny that with a +2 bonus.

3) So this means that you're counting on him to fail with +2 to cast and a CP re-roll if need be, without you being able to deny if he doesn't want you to. He has more than enough mobility to cast from outside your deny range.

Wouldn't go placing any bets on these things my friend.

Having played at the same event as two Chaos players this weekend who are almost certainly going to be playing for the big prize on day 3 at NOVA, I can say with certainty that he's good enough to be in every player's tournament list. They would have taken him without a second thought even if he didn't get access to the new psychic powers. Now it's even better for Magnus. Ask the 3-peat adepticon champion I played in round 1 if you doubt me.

Okay let me be a little more specific

Your paying 500 points to get the Changling and Magnus.

1 Changling restricts Magnus' movement greatly. If you want to actually benefit from the aura that is.

2 Deny range is 24" Smite is 18" if you want to cast smite on something your going to have to be within deny range.

3 your CP is going to take a hit since your spending 1/3 to 1/4 of your points on 2 models.

4 single fairly cheep models can severly hamper your combo.

5 your going to have to burn an extra spell to keep changling up with Magnus.

6 The fact that your relying on 2 different things to keep you alive and increases the probablity of something failing.

All of those things combined means something will fall apart, there are too many areas where your opponet can attack your army and succeed at disrupting your plans.

Keep in mind the fact that he can't hide means when these things fail your enemy WILL capitalize on them.

Anybody trying renegate helbrutes? M8 dreadnoughts that can charge after advancing seems scary. Hand them a scourge and something else either a cheap gun to save points or a fist for that free attack.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he womt lost the turn.

So your argument for Magnus being bad is that:

1) he can be targeted
2) he might lose his invulnerable save
3) he might not cast his +1 save power

1) you're right. He can be targeted. At great cost and in a horribly inefficient way. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot at him, but if you try, expect it to take multiple turns at minimum and for it to be very difficult. The problem with this line of thinking is that you do it in a vacuum. What makes you think that the Chaos player won't kill the very things that can kill Magnus? Is the only thing in a Chaos list that you have to care about Magnus? Then great you win on turn 3 most likely! But if there are other things that you HAVE to deal with (hi berserkers) or things that are going to kill your long range firepower (hi berserkers) before turn 3, then maybe killing Magnus won't be as easy as you think.

2) So this means that you're casting a psychic power within 24" of Magnus. Good luck with that. Hope he decides not to try and deny that with a +2 bonus.

3) So this means that you're counting on him to fail with +2 to cast and a CP re-roll if need be, without you being able to deny if he doesn't want you to. He has more than enough mobility to cast from outside your deny range.

Wouldn't go placing any bets on these things my friend.

Having played at the same event as two Chaos players this weekend who are almost certainly going to be playing for the big prize on day 3 at NOVA, I can say with certainty that he's good enough to be in every player's tournament list. They would have taken him without a second thought even if he didn't get access to the new psychic powers. Now it's even better for Magnus. Ask the 3-peat adepticon champion I played in round 1 if you doubt me.

Okay let me be a little more specific

Your paying 500 points to get the Changling and Magnus.

1 Changling restricts Magnus' movement greatly. If you want to actually benefit from the aura that is.

2 Deny range is 24" Smite is 18" if you want to cast smite on something your going to have to be within deny range.

3 your CP is going to take a hit since your spending 1/3 to 1/4 of your points on 2 models.

4 single fairly cheep models can severly hamper your combo.

5 your going to have to burn an extra spell to keep changling up with Magnus.

6 The fact that your relying on 2 different things to keep you alive and increases the probablity of something failing.

All of those things combined means something will fall apart, there are too many areas where your opponet can attack your army and succeed at disrupting your plans.

Keep in mind the fact that he can't hide means when these things fail your enemy WILL capitalize on them.

To me, the issue isn't quite "can Magnus be killed." Of course he can be killed (although it's not as easy for Imperium forces to strip him of his Inv save as it is for Chaos forces to do the same to Guilliman; any Magnus player who lets an Imperium psyker get close enough to him to cast Null Zone needs a spanking from Tzeentch). The question should be, "Can Magnus reliably wreck enough of the enemy to make his points back before he gets blown away by massed fire?" That, of course, depends on the army you're facing and your respective skill levels. I will say that with his opening +2 to casting rolls, his inherent speed on the table, and the tasty powers in the newly-expanded Dark Hereticus, Magnus has quite a lot of tools at his disposal. The Changeling is certainly nice, if you can swing it, but not absolutely necessary.

The one change I would make to him, which I hope GW does in the codex, is to make him immune to Perils again (or only make him suffer Perils if he rolls snake eyes).

Sokhar wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
Would a pair of maulerfiends compare to LOS? Similar price, but obviously no shooting on them. With their update, they have solid damage. I'm wondering if the speed of the Blood Slaughterer is worth taking it over maulerfiends. 2 of them is a little over a LOS, but still close.

2 Maulerfiends similar price to Lord of Skulls? Uhmm....wanna try again? Maulerfiends are like 152 fully-kitted, just the LoS BODY costs 350, and then you have to buy guns for it....that runs another 250. So a fair comparison is actually 4 Maulerfiends vs a Lord of Skulls.

Oh wow, I was thinking ir dropped to 350 total. Nvm then LOS is out for me. Still trying to decide between maulerfiends and Bloodslaughteres. Right now they are about the same cost in dollars, atleast where I'm at in cali (the maulefiend kit is $70!)

 Khornate25 wrote:
What is better in your opinion :

lascannon havocs, lascannon predator or a defiler ?

Havocs if you're running AL or another Legion with a strat that will help them. I'd also take Havocs if I had limited points.

I really want to try out a triple Las-Pred list: that strategem (Killshot) looks so tasty! Las wounding any tank (short of a titan) on a 2+ and doing 1+d6 damage per shot! Not tried it yet but someone should.

*Sigh* BS4+! Why!? Ruins the defiler for me.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Okay let me be a little more specific

Your paying 500 points to get the Changling and Magnus.

1 Changling restricts Magnus' movement greatly. If you want to actually benefit from the aura that is.

2 Deny range is 24" Smite is 18" if you want to cast smite on something your going to have to be within deny range.

3 your CP is going to take a hit since your spending 1/3 to 1/4 of your points on 2 models.

4 single fairly cheep models can severly hamper your combo.

5 your going to have to burn an extra spell to keep changling up with Magnus.

6 The fact that your relying on 2 different things to keep you alive and increases the probablity of something failing.

All of those things combined means something will fall apart, there are too many areas where your opponet can attack your army and succeed at disrupting your plans.

Keep in mind the fact that he can't hide means when these things fail your enemy WILL capitalize on them.

You're working really hard to push a point here, but you're either omitting facts or being a bit willfully obtuse in twisting them to support your thesis.

I'm paying 500 points for an amazing beatstick character and probably the best defensive buffing character in the game. If you play Tzeentch, Changeling goes in your list. Automatically. More so than Magnus, because Changeling can significantly improve the durability of your entire army. Magnus is just another beneficiary, it's not like Changeling is there JUST for Magnus.

1) Changeling isn't meant to buff Magnus for the entire game, so no, he doesn't hamper Magnus' movement. Changeling is there to help Magnus survive an alpha strike. In all likelihood, Magnus will be within Changeling's bubble for 1 turn. Anything more than that is gravy, because between his natural move and Warp Time, Magnus moves 32" and then charges. He will almost always be engaged within 1 turn. After Magnus flies off, Changeling is still buffing the rest of your army. If they move up to keep pace with Magnus, awesome, but otherwise you're still good.

2) Not seeing a correlation here. Smite requires you to be within 18" of an enemy model, Deny requires 24" of the caster. Pretty sure you can maneuver to avoid the psyker and still be in range of other stuff to Smite. And I don't think Magnus' Smite is the only option you have for dealing with an enemy psyker. But even if you want to assume it is, Magnus gets 3 Deny attempts per turn, with a +2 to his rolls to start, and for a critical power like one denying him his Invul save, you're going to save a command point. The odds are probably in his favor for that though again, that's purely if you want to let your opponent dictate to you rather than use actual strategy.

3) Hey bro, have you heard of these things called Brimstone Horrors? They're new and kinda relevant to the command point issue. Spending 500 points on Changeling and Magnus doesn't impair your command points when you can fill out 6 Troop slots for 180 points, and a lot of Chaos' best stuff comes in the HQ slot (like Changeling!). Chaos lists can easily manage 2 Battalions and a Supreme Command to fit Magnus, giving you 10 command points.

4) For example? Gotta love a bullet point that presents no argument whatsoever.

5) No you're not. I already addressed Changeling not being required to keep up with Magnus above, but also as Changeling is not Heretic Astartes, you couldn't Warp Time him along in the first place. Know rules first, then argue.

6) Chance of failure, when Changeling is an aura effect? Chance of failing to cast an important spell, with the best caster in the game....very weak argument. It can happen, sure. But the odds are strongly in favor of working as intended, and I don't see why you'd avoid a strong combo just because there's a possibility of failure. Do winged Daemon Princes suck because they might roll a 1 to wound?

Just rubbish. You can choose not to run Magnus if you don't like Tzeentch, or Thousand Sons, or really powerful models, or because you want to take a more welcoming, fluff bunny type list. Any of those reasons are valid. But to argue that Magnus just isn't outright good shows you're either ignorant to facts or are blinded by an agenda. Makes about as much sense as trying to say Conscripts aren't good.

BS4+ seems to be the issue with most of our daemon engines. What bonus do we have to hit that actually effects them though? VotLW is infantry only I believe.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
BS4+ seems to be the issue with most of our daemon engines. What bonus do we have to hit that actually effects them though? VotLW is infantry only I believe.

Prescience, re-roll 1's from Lords, and Daemon Forge stratagem.

 combatcotton wrote:
Anybody trying renegate helbrutes? M8 dreadnoughts that can charge after advancing seems scary. Hand them a scourge and something else either a cheap gun to save points or a fist for that free attack.

I have a flamefists brute that looks like he should be rushing like Zangief but I'm Word Bearers and fielding him as a Renegade would feel like claiming some Long Fangs are Ultramarines Devastators :/

Sokhar wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
BS4+ seems to be the issue with most of our daemon engines. What bonus do we have to hit that actually effects them though? VotLW is infantry only I believe.

Prescience, re-roll 1's from Lords, and Daemon Forge stratagem.

Well, it's okay for one unit, but only one of these buffs can scale. And even if a Forgefiend roll three 3's for its Ectoplasma ROF, Prescience is *still* probably better used on a unit of overcharging Plasma Gunners.

Buffs and stratagems are the icing on other units, but Fiends and Defilers... well, I guess it's not too bad that they regenerate and their BS doesn't degrade as severely as Mortal vehicles. I guess that's probably how we should view them, to be fair. Once they've taken six or so Wounds, a Daemon Engine is as accurate as a Predator. So... they're better suited to a more frontline, aggressive role - even though they want to stay still if possible to avoid losing accuracy (or a CP). A Predator is better suited to a stalking role, avoiding overexposure with its lower profile. Havocs can stand on top of a Ruin, gaining cover, and won't ever be tabled by four lascannons.

Whats the WS on the Bloodslaughterer. Also what keywords does it have? Thanks

Decimators with double butcher cannons are around 150 and put out stupid amounts of firepower, heal a wound a turn, can synergize with daemons, and drop enemy leadership for night lords shenanigans.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
Whats the WS on the Bloodslaughterer. Also what keywords does it have? Thanks

3+ with no degradation; CHAOS, KHORNE, HERETIC ASTARTES, LEGION; VEHICLE, DAEMON, DAEMON ENGINE, BLOOD SLAUGHTERER OF KHORNE

 lindsay40k wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
Whats the WS on the Bloodslaughterer. Also what keywords does it have? Thanks

3+ with no degradation; CHAOS, KHORNE, HERETIC ASTARTES, LEGION; VEHICLE, DAEMON, DAEMON ENGINE, BLOOD SLAUGHTERER OF KHORNE

Thanks for that, WS 3+ and all those keywords may be the kicker for me.

Or maybe I'll just go 1 maulerfiend and 1 Bloodslaughterer instead of a pair of one or the other.

Sokhar wrote:

You're working really hard to push a point here, but you're either omitting facts or being a bit willfully obtuse in twisting them to support your thesis.

Oh man the projection is real. You realize I wrote less then a quarter that you did. Right?

Sokhar wrote:

I'm paying 500 points for an amazing beatstick character and probably the best defensive buffing character in the game. If you play Tzeentch, Changeling goes in your list. Automatically. More so than Magnus, because Changeling can significantly improve the durability of your entire army. Magnus is just another beneficiary, it's not like Changeling is there JUST for Magnus.

Changling is not an auto include for TS players, or any army other then Tzzentch Deamons, so Changling would be there specifically for Magnus in a TS army

Sokhar wrote:

1) Changeling isn't meant to buff Magnus for the entire game, so no, he doesn't hamper Magnus' movement. Changeling is there to help Magnus survive an alpha strike. In all likelihood, Magnus will be within Changeling's bubble for 1 turn. Anything more than that is gravy, because between his natural move and Warp Time, Magnus moves 32" and then charges. He will almost always be engaged within 1 turn. After Magnus flies off, Changeling is still buffing the rest of your army. If they move up to keep pace with Magnus, awesome, but otherwise you're still good.

Thats fine, but don't bother counting Magnus having the aura on him at all if you intend to have him rush out of the aura firat turn. Thats great he charges something kills it and then catches 1750 points worth of fire in a singe turn and dies.

Sokhar wrote:

2) Not seeing a correlation here. Smite requires you to be within 18" of an enemy model, Deny requires 24" of the caster. Pretty sure you can maneuver to avoid the psyker and still be in range of other stuff to Smite. And I don't think Magnus' Smite is the only option you have for dealing with an enemy psyker. But even if you want to assume it is, Magnus gets 3 Deny attempts per turn, with a +2 to his rolls to start, and for a critical power like one denying him his Invul save, you're going to save a command point. The odds are probably in his favor for that though again, that's purely if you want to let your opponent dictate to you rather than use actual strategy.

2 units with deny can be positioned such that your not going to get smite off without being in deny range even if you have models 5" away from the denying models.

Sokhar wrote:

3) Hey bro, have you heard of these things called Brimstone Horrors? They're new and kinda relevant to the command point issue. Spending 500 points on Changeling and Magnus doesn't impair your command points when you can fill out 6 Troop slots for 180 points, and a lot of Chaos' best stuff comes in the HQ slot (like Changeling!). Chaos lists can easily manage 2 Battalions and a Supreme Command to fit Magnus, giving you 10 command points.

Thats great Brimstone Horrors can't be taken in a thats great for Tzzentch Daemons, but TS cant take Brimestone Horrors the cheapest troops we get are Cultists which are...well there cultists.

Sokhar wrote:

4) For example? Gotta love a bullet point that presents no argument whatsoever.

So you can't think of a single unit that might screw things up? No assassins that are the bane of all psykers everywhere. Not to mention strats that dish out mortal wounds like crazy, sisters of silence?

Sokhar wrote:

5) No you're not. I already addressed Changeling not being required to keep up with Magnus above, but also as Changeling is not Heretic Astartes, you couldn't Warp Time him along in the first place. Know rules first, then argue.

Yes, yes. You say Changeling makes Magnus super durable but he only stays next to him for 1 turn.

Sokhar wrote:

6) Chance of failure, when Changeling is an aura effect? Chance of failing to cast an important spell, with the best caster in the game....very weak argument. It can happen, sure. But the odds are strongly in favor of working as intended, and I don't see why you'd avoid a strong combo just because there's a possibility of failure. Do winged Daemon Princes suck because they might roll a 1 to wound?

Failure just means you don't benefit from the effect. Snipers killing him, you being forced or willingly moving out of range. 2 units of SoS and 1 Cluxes and you becomebthe worst caster in the game. Its not avoid

Sokhar wrote:

Just rubbish. You can choose not to run Magnus if you don't like Tzeentch, or Thousand Sons, or really powerful models, or because you want to take a more welcoming, fluff bunny type list. Any of those reasons are valid. But to argue that Magnus just isn't outright good shows you're either ignorant to facts or are blinded by an agenda. Makes about as much sense as trying to say Conscripts aren't good.

Yes I must be totally ignorant. Magnus is good if your opponet knows absolutly nothing about either TS or Tzeentch in general. But if they have any idea of what there doing they can easily counter him.

Maybe ya'll should make a thread on magnus and his usefulness. Seems like there is a lot to be said on him, but this thread is starting to turn in to a heated debate rather than a tactics sharing thread.

With the pts drop i'v found the defiler rather good now

5++ regain a wound and 14 wounds... i scourge him up and just plough him forwards the shooting is secondary.

Thousand Son Sorcerer, honest question:

Do you play competitively, like at tournaments outside of just your club?

I don't ask to sound condescending, but your comments are making me think that either your opponents or you are not playing competitive lists.

If you're talking pure thousand sons, that's totally respectable but brims can and often are paired with Magnus (for obvious reasons) and the changeling is one of the best HQ's in the game. Really not sure why you're so intent on downing the obvious and powerful synergy there.

No unit is unkillable or uncounterable, but Magnus is pretty close to both if he's played properly (like with the support of an actual army). If you rush him out and assault something turn 1, well than yeah you're asking to have him killed unless you have other threats the opponent has to deal with. But played properly, he's a very good unit. I'm not sure what unit could possibly be more auto include in a CSM army right now except for maybe brims or cultists for cheap CP as well as at least some berserkers. Open to hearing what you think is auto include though, if not Magnus, brims or a changeling.

 luke1705 wrote:
Thousand Son Sorcerer, honest question:

Do you play competitively, like at tournaments outside of just your club?

I don't ask to sound condescending, but your comments are making me think that either your opponents or you are not playing competitive lists.

If you're talking pure thousand sons, that's totally respectable but brims can and often are paired with Magnus (for obvious reasons) and the changeling is one of the best HQ's in the game. Really not sure why you're so intent on downing the obvious and powerful synergy there.

No unit is unkillable or uncounterable, but Magnus is pretty close to both if he's played properly (like with the support of an actual army). If you rush him out and assault something turn 1, well than yeah you're asking to have him killed unless you have other threats the opponent has to deal with. But played properly, he's a very good unit. I'm not sure what unit could possibly be more auto include in a CSM army right now except for maybe brims or cultists for cheap CP as well as at least some berserkers. Open to hearing what you think is auto include though, if not Magnus, brims or a changeling.

Daemon princes (Alpha legion or tzeentch/nurgle daemon are fine choices), exalted flamers, and some would say Foetid bloat drones.

my personal auto include is a herald on a steed of slaanesh for that -1 to hit power, with all the negatives you could put your enemy at -3 to hit. Pretty nasty.

Maulerfiend vs Blood Slaughterer

Maulerfiend
172 points
10'' move
WS 4+ / BS 4+
4 strength 12 attacks
2 strength 8 attacks
T7 12 wounds

Blood Slaughterer
180 points
10'' move, auto 6'' advance, can gain 2'' of charge distance with harpoon
WS3+ / BS4+
8 strength 10 attacks
1 strength 8 attack
T7 10 wounds

With average rolls the BS is landing almost twice as many hits as the Maulerfiend, and is also faster. If I were going Khorne or Undivided I just can't see an argument for ever taking the Maulerfiend.

I don't there are any benefits a Prince can get for being Alpha Legion, sadly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, the warlord trait is good.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Maulerfiend vs Blood Slaughterer

Maulerfiend
172 points
10'' move
WS 4+ / BS 4+
4 strength 12 attacks
2 strength 8 attacks
T7 12 wounds

Blood Slaughterer
180 points
10'' move, auto 6'' advance, can gain 2'' of charge distance with harpoon
WS3+ / BS4+
8 strength 10 attacks
1 strength 8 attack
T7 10 wounds

With average rolls the BS is landing almost twice as many hits as the Maulerfiend, and is also faster. If I were going Khorne or Undivided I just can't see an argument for ever taking the Maulerfiend.

Don't take magma cutters which is where the argument is.

Lasher Tendrils is what changes that up.

Maulerfiend with Tendrils:
152 points
10'' move
WS 4+ / BS 4+
4 strength 12 attacks
6 strength 6 attacks
T7 12 wounds
3+/5++ regen 1 wound a turn

That is a nasty piece of daemon engine right there.

edit: Got my points updated

I think the speed and better WS will make a difference, so I'm going to gwt the Bloodslaughterer. However, with lasher tendrils the mauler fiend is a solid choice too, so my next purchase will be one of those instead of a 2nd BS. The more options the better right! What mark would be best on a maulerfiend (so that he can benefit from the god specific powers)?

 luke1705 wrote:
Do you play competitively, like at tournaments outside of just your club?

Used to not anymore, had a bad experiance. People at my club do though.

 luke1705 wrote:
I don't ask to sound condescending, but your comments are making me think that either your opponents or you are not playing competitive lists.

I play a pure TS list in a competitive enviorment. Right now a pure TS list is not competitive due to the lack of options. Not that TS cant or wont be competitive.

 luke1705 wrote:
If you're talking pure thousand sons, that's totally respectable but brims can and often are paired with Magnus (for obvious reasons) and the changeling is one of the best HQ's in the game. Really not sure why you're so intent on downing the obvious and powerful synergy there.

Im not saying its not powerful. Im saying its inefficent and can easily made unreliable.

 luke1705 wrote:
No unit is unkillable or uncounterable, but Magnus is pretty close to both if he's played properly (like with the support of an actual army). If you rush him out and assault something turn 1, well than yeah you're asking to have him killed unless you have other threats the opponent has to deal with. But played properly, he's a very good unit. I'm not sure what unit could possibly be more auto include in a CSM army right now except for maybe brims or cultists for cheap CP as well as at least some berserkers. Open to hearing what you think is auto include though, if not Magnus, brims or a changeling.

Its not that he can be countered. If the point cost for units that countered him were relativly high it wouldn't be a problem. Problem is Cluxus is 85 points which totally negates his plus 2. Vigilators are 95 points and terrifying for him, inquisitor rex (I think) gets a plus 1 to deny and is also 95 points with just Rex and Cluxus you need to roll an 8 to be confident your going to be able to get the spells you want off, and that is to make it more probable then not that you will get the spell off. That's only 180 points to shut down a 400 point model. And all it takes is one turn of Magnus not having an invul save and hes dust. That's not even looking at strats which seem to have a lot of mortal wounds built in. Flakk missle for example. Linebreaker bombardment.

Quick question for people who collect both chaos marines and daemons; What's a solid base of daemons to have in order to allow flexible counters via summoning? I'm looking to end up with a few units aligned to each god, but atm all I have are khorne units. I'm looking to branch out - the end goal being to own a multi-god daemon element for my chaos marines so that no matter what army I face I can summon in some monsters to deal with it.

Mazzyx wrote:

Don't take magma cutters which is where the argument is.

Lasher Tendrils is what changes that up.

Maulerfiend with Tendrils:
152 points
10'' move
WS 4+ / BS 4+
4 strength 12 attacks
6 strength 6 attacks
T7 12 wounds
3+/5++ regen 1 wound a turn

That is a nasty piece of daemon engine right there.

edit: Got my points updated

How does that change things up? 6 strength 6 attacks hitting on 4s doesn't compare to 9 strength 10 attacks hitting on 3s. With 1 less damage it's basically half as effective against armored targets.

With lasher's you're taking a unit that's somewhat effective at tank hunting and below average at infantry fighting, and making it mediocre at both.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Mazzyx wrote:

Don't take magma cutters which is where the argument is.

Lasher Tendrils is what changes that up.

Maulerfiend with Tendrils:
152 points
10'' move
WS 4+ / BS 4+
4 strength 12 attacks
6 strength 6 attacks
T7 12 wounds
3+/5++ regen 1 wound a turn

That is a nasty piece of daemon engine right there.

edit: Got my points updated

How does that change things up? You're cutting your strength literally in half in order to take lasher tendrils, that's awful.

How are you halfing your strength ? You attack with the fists and the lasher tendrils at the same time

You posted before I finished my edit

I would rather have 6 str 6 attacks than 2 str 8 attacks, esp on a Ws/Bs 4+ platform.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Mazzyx wrote:

Don't take magma cutters which is where the argument is.

Lasher Tendrils is what changes that up.

Maulerfiend with Tendrils:
152 points
10'' move
WS 4+ / BS 4+
4 strength 12 attacks
6 strength 6 attacks
T7 12 wounds
3+/5++ regen 1 wound a turn

That is a nasty piece of daemon engine right there.

edit: Got my points updated

How does that change things up? You're cutting your strength literally in half in order to take lasher tendrils, that's awful.

In reality they do different things. You still get 4 str 12 attacks with the fist. Then you triple your attacks at strength 6 instead of 8 for way cheaper. It is mean mean verse both infantry and most vehicles.

For 30 pts less you get more attacks, at a slightly less average strength (7.6 verse 8 as the average). 2 more wounds. Slightly less movement.

I would say both are good. The fiend is more a flurry of 2 damage attacks. It can still crack open lots of things and cost you less points that can go into something else nasty with it. The slaughterer is better but also forgeworld, not all of us use it/want to pay for it, and maybe doesn't fit some folks armies. As mine is a Slaanesh/EC verse say Khorne/WE.

And no I wouldn't say the fiend is horrible.

edit: Brain went to the blood slaughterer here.