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Morty gets Arch-Contaminator, according to Facebook.

Morty is confirmed to have arch contaminator, which isn't bad if you load up a bunch of melee PM or the new deathshroud and run them up the field together. Typhus got lord of plagues or whatever it was.

Also, we recently had it confirmed that there are 15 new datasheets in the codex, 7 of which are characters, leaving 8 more. Given we know 3-4 (two variants of terminator and 1-2 variants on the plagueburst crawler), that means we could still have plague havocs of some description.

If we do, I imagine they'd just be normal plague marines without he melee options and able to equip everyone with a gun. Also maybe a heavy version of the plague launcher, I can hope.

mario88826 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/05/death-guard-warlord-traits-stratagems-and-relicsgw-homepage-post-2/

Death Guard traits, relics and some others.

Looking incredible.

Stratagems are VERY unimpressive, like what is even purpose of Cloud of flies ? I won't spend command point to hide my plague marines or poxwalkers, why would i do anything stupid like that. I already paid royally to field those guys with high resilience. So they can soak damage for me .
It's not like we have any equivalent of havocs (was hoping for some bio-weapons/chemical squad ) to protect. And since we don't have any extra sources of command points like abaddon/guilliman - then wasting them like that would be unwise at best. - Cloud of flies seems like a great stratagem to me... 1CP to basically make one of your units extremely hard to even damage for a turn, is something you would use on a expensive elite unit that you want to keep on the table for as long as possible. I thought poxwalkers were the cheap bubblewrap unit? Why would you even think about using this on them?

Nurgle Rot ? Really 3 CP ? It's 50% of CPs normal army will have in first place for mere chance to deal of average of 1 mortal wound (simple math 50% for D3) ... I will never ever even consider using it unless idk flooded by 5-6 independent units at least within 7". - I agree it's situational, but it's a stratagem you can just keep in your pocket for the day when you have a unit that manages to maneouver so that you're in range of 3/4/5 enemy units. And when that happens you can just use it, and potentially do a bunch of mortal wounds. And as nurgle, you might even cause some units to lose their leadership tests causing even more losses.

Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bat as those above. - This seems like it would be useful on any vehicle. If you get attacked in melee and your vehicle gets destroyed, you have the option to force the explosion. Situational but not bad, and a fun option.

But traits are okay - especially Revoltingly Resilient - kinda autopick compared to others. Though Archcontaminator seems potentially super dangerous combined not with actually CC weapons but blight launchers/plague spitters etc.
Overall traits are balanced and okay.
Now that I think of it - Daemon prince could be potentially really powerful support character - already rerolling 1's and then rerolling all wounds for all plague artilery / flamers. On top of that psyker and formidable combatant. Only weak part is that he doesn't have plague weapon himself ;x.

Speaking of relics - kinda disappointing except for The supporating Plate - and then again it's only useable on Daemon Prince. Why would you give it to Lord of contagion who already has 2+, though secondary effect is super powerful.

Weak stratagems so far - but there is more.
Quiet powerful Warlord traits though - hopefully Mortarion actually has this one with FNP 4+.
Relics are average, with plate being STRONG.

I thought it said something in that article about Death Guard princes having Disgustingly Resilient. Normal CSM princes, even Nurgle ones, do not have that; only the Nurgle ones from Chaos Daemons do. Maybe Death Guard princes will have a leg up over their CSM brethren now.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I thought it said something in that article about Death Guard princes having Disgustingly Resilient. Normal CSM princes, even Nurgle ones, do not have that; only the Nurgle ones from Chaos Daemons do. Maybe Death Guard princes will have a leg up over their CSM brethren now.

If they do, I'll be pretty hyped for the 4++ Thousand Sons daemon princes will get, heheh.

Niiru wrote:

mario88826 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/05/death-guard-warlord-traits-stratagems-and-relicsgw-homepage-post-2/

Death Guard traits, relics and some others.

Looking incredible.

Stratagems are VERY unimpressive, like what is even purpose of Cloud of flies ? I won't spend command point to hide my plague marines or poxwalkers, why would i do anything stupid like that. I already paid royally to field those guys with high resilience. So they can soak damage for me .
It's not like we have any equivalent of havocs (was hoping for some bio-weapons/chemical squad ) to protect. And since we don't have any extra sources of command points like abaddon/guilliman - then wasting them like that would be unwise at best. - Cloud of flies seems like a great stratagem to me... 1CP to basically make one of your units extremely hard to even damage for a turn, is something you would use on a expensive elite unit that you want to keep on the table for as long as possible. I thought poxwalkers were the cheap bubblewrap unit? Why would you even think about using this on them?

Nurgle Rot ? Really 3 CP ? It's 50% of CPs normal army will have in first place for mere chance to deal of average of 1 mortal wound (simple math 50% for D3) ... I will never ever even consider using it unless idk flooded by 5-6 independent units at least within 7". - I agree it's situational, but it's a stratagem you can just keep in your pocket for the day when you have a unit that manages to maneouver so that you're in range of 3/4/5 enemy units. And when that happens you can just use it, and potentially do a bunch of mortal wounds. And as nurgle, you might even cause some units to lose their leadership tests causing even more losses.

Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bat as those above. - This seems like it would be useful on any vehicle. If you get attacked in melee and your vehicle gets destroyed, you have the option to force the explosion. Situational but not bad, and a fun option.

But traits are okay - especially Revoltingly Resilient - kinda autopick compared to others. Though Archcontaminator seems potentially super dangerous combined not with actually CC weapons but blight launchers/plague spitters etc.
Overall traits are balanced and okay.
Now that I think of it - Daemon prince could be potentially really powerful support character - already rerolling 1's and then rerolling all wounds for all plague artilery / flamers. On top of that psyker and formidable combatant. Only weak part is that he doesn't have plague weapon himself ;x.

Speaking of relics - kinda disappointing except for The supporating Plate - and then again it's only useable on Daemon Prince. Why would you give it to Lord of contagion who already has 2+, though secondary effect is super powerful.

Weak stratagems so far - but there is more.
Quiet powerful Warlord traits though - hopefully Mortarion actually has this one with FNP 4+.
Relics are average, with plate being STRONG.

Name this infantry unit where Cloud of flies has any application. And at the same time is worth 1 CP which can be used for something like "Veterans of Long War". Don't get me wrong this stratagem would be super good if we still had access to things like Obliterators/Havocs.
As it stands now - it's useless - infantry we will have is :
1. Poxwalkers - we both agreed they are there to take damage not to be protected.
2. Plague Marines - semi viable option - and again they are tough by default . Actually you pay royally 6 points over normal CSM to get this extra 1T and FNP so they should be tanky - no need to cover them even more. Especially that they deal pathetic damage compared to all other 3 cult marines.
3. New DG terminators - idk how to even benefit from this stratagem on them as they will probably be coming via deep strike - so they will be close to opponent hence he will still be able to shoot them. And same like with plague marines i don't think guys with 5T 2+/4++/5+++ and 2W (this is to be expected if they are cataphractii armor) - would even want to take someone else to take bullets for them. THEY ARE THE TANKS THERE.
4. Deathshroud Terminators - same as above.
5.Cultists ... oh come on - 4 points per dude - wont waste CP on them.

So unless we have access to other infantry than those 5 units - then I just can't see merit of having this stratagem.

Another thing if you cast that on one of plague marines - opponent will just shoot another. It's not like you will have just one unit of infantry :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arachnofiend wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I thought it said something in that article about Death Guard princes having Disgustingly Resilient. Normal CSM princes, even Nurgle ones, do not have that; only the Nurgle ones from Chaos Daemons do. Maybe Death Guard princes will have a leg up over their CSM brethren now.

If they do, I'll be pretty hyped for the 4++ Thousand Sons daemon princes will get, heheh.

According to my battlescribe demon princes benefit from alleignance. Though it may not be accurate.
Then again if they mentioned that it will improve princes FNP - we are safe to assume they have it.
But again as simple math proves - this warlord trait is inferior to CSM 6+ on top of FNP and +1W.

mario88826 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

mario88826 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/05/death-guard-warlord-traits-stratagems-and-relicsgw-homepage-post-2/

Death Guard traits, relics and some others.

Looking incredible.

Stratagems are VERY unimpressive, like what is even purpose of Cloud of flies ? I won't spend command point to hide my plague marines or poxwalkers, why would i do anything stupid like that. I already paid royally to field those guys with high resilience. So they can soak damage for me .
It's not like we have any equivalent of havocs (was hoping for some bio-weapons/chemical squad ) to protect. And since we don't have any extra sources of command points like abaddon/guilliman - then wasting them like that would be unwise at best. - Cloud of flies seems like a great stratagem to me... 1CP to basically make one of your units extremely hard to even damage for a turn, is something you would use on a expensive elite unit that you want to keep on the table for as long as possible. I thought poxwalkers were the cheap bubblewrap unit? Why would you even think about using this on them?

Nurgle Rot ? Really 3 CP ? It's 50% of CPs normal army will have in first place for mere chance to deal of average of 1 mortal wound (simple math 50% for D3) ... I will never ever even consider using it unless idk flooded by 5-6 independent units at least within 7". - I agree it's situational, but it's a stratagem you can just keep in your pocket for the day when you have a unit that manages to maneouver so that you're in range of 3/4/5 enemy units. And when that happens you can just use it, and potentially do a bunch of mortal wounds. And as nurgle, you might even cause some units to lose their leadership tests causing even more losses.

Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bat as those above. - This seems like it would be useful on any vehicle. If you get attacked in melee and your vehicle gets destroyed, you have the option to force the explosion. Situational but not bad, and a fun option.

But traits are okay - especially Revoltingly Resilient - kinda autopick compared to others. Though Archcontaminator seems potentially super dangerous combined not with actually CC weapons but blight launchers/plague spitters etc.
Overall traits are balanced and okay.
Now that I think of it - Daemon prince could be potentially really powerful support character - already rerolling 1's and then rerolling all wounds for all plague artilery / flamers. On top of that psyker and formidable combatant. Only weak part is that he doesn't have plague weapon himself ;x.

Speaking of relics - kinda disappointing except for The supporating Plate - and then again it's only useable on Daemon Prince. Why would you give it to Lord of contagion who already has 2+, though secondary effect is super powerful.

Weak stratagems so far - but there is more.
Quiet powerful Warlord traits though - hopefully Mortarion actually has this one with FNP 4+.
Relics are average, with plate being STRONG.

Name this infantry unit where Cloud of flies has any application. And at the same time is worth 1 CP which can be used for something like "Veterans of Long War". Don't get me wrong this stratagem would be super good if we still had access to things like Obliterators/Havocs.
As it stands now - it's useless - infantry we will have is :
1. Poxwalkers - we both agreed they are there to take damage not to be protected.
2. Plague Marines - semi viable option - and again they are tough by default . Actually you pay royally 6 points over normal CSM to get this extra 1T and FNP so they should be tanky - no need to cover them even more. Especially that they deal pathetic damage compared to all other 3 cult marines.
3. New DG terminators - idk how to even benefit from this stratagem on them as they will probably be coming via deep strike - so they will be close to opponent hence he will still be able to shoot them. And same like with plague marines i don't think guys with 5T 2+/4++/5+++ and 2W (this is to be expected if they are cataphractii armor) - would even want to take someone else to take bullets for them. THEY ARE THE TANKS THERE.
4. Deathshroud Terminators - same as above.
5.Cultists ... oh come on - 4 points per dude - wont waste CP on them.

So unless we have access to other infantry than those 5 units - then I just can't see merit of having this stratagem.

Another thing if you cast that on one of plague marines - opponent will just shoot another. It's not like you will have just one unit of infantry :(

Well why wouldn't it be useful on terminators? There are a lot of units in the game right now that can lay down D2 fire (which is why Ork Bikers have gone from great units in 7th to worthless in 8th), and so even with all their saves you might be in a position where your expensive terminator squad has been left in the line of fire. While they're likely to be the nearest unit to -some- of the enemy, they wont be the nearest unit to all the enemy units (unless you're running a pure gunline army in one corner, and a lone terminator squad in the enemy's lines... which would be a bad idea). So yeh, it's not a stratagem you'd use in every round of every game, but it's a nice tool to have in the box.

It sounds like you wanted stratagems that were always super useful and powerful, but that's exactly what we -dont- want. That would put Chaos in the realms of girlyman and scion spam. I'd rather have a wide variety of stratagems, each of them useful in different situations. Which seems to be what these guys are getting. I hope for more of the same for thousand sons in the future.

@ Niiru

About Cloud of flies again - some armies like cacaphony obliterators would welcome this stratagem very kindly ! But sadly we don't have access to long range support infantry - the only really possible benefactor of this stratagem.

You kinda misunderstand me there. Those DG stratagems, actually all of them are very situational and on top of that no so powerful even in nice setup. Let me give you examples of always strong stratagems for all CSM - and for those you want to save CP, because no doubt you will benefit heavily from using them.

1. Chaos familiar - well if you want to run pure DG, but get access to juicy powers like warptime/prescience/death hex ? Well and it cost you only 1 CP ! Always useful.
2. Veteran of long war - you know all too well how this can be powerful - and it's not situational at all. Always useful. Guess what 1 CP
3. Daemonforge - oh my god one of my favourites. Suddenly Defiler with eiter his powerful ranged weapons or close combat ones - gets SIGNIFICANTLY better . 1 CP aswell.

All of those stratagems are avaible to all CSM and just simply better and less situational (except for last one if you don't field daemon engines - like you would not field bloat drones - with new weapons they benefit a lot and/or now godlike Defiler)

I'm not even mentioning universal stratagems like 2 CP interrupting combat, rerolling seize initiative .

And really you will be most of the time rolling only ~~6 CP - so tell me how you can even consider using those 3 DG stratagems at all ...
Now i still have my hopes up - as there are still 3 more. And those may be actually useful.

To sum up what is in my mind - I would be okay with those stratagems if I had like 9-10 CPs like Ultrasmurfs often have. But that is not the case. I cannot casually throw away 3 CP to get average 1 mortal wound per unit within 7" - that is ridiculous.
I just plain and simple can't ... even if i deal randomly ~~~3 mortal wounds ... still not worth it. 3 mortal wounds is nothing vs used 3 CPs.

Truth be told only explosion stratagem can be nice - and you gotta run some expensive vehicles in first place who deal any reasonable damage after exploding ...

Now some stuff like this Relic Plate or warlord trait where you can reroll all wound rolls for plague weapons - those are not automatically inferior to CSM variants. Actually plate can be possibly damn OP on Nurgle Daemon Prince indeed.
So not everything is bad.

But yeah I'm far from being impressed by what we got now.

mario88826 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/05/death-guard-warlord-traits-stratagems-and-relicsgw-homepage-post-2/

Death Guard traits, relics and some others.

Looking incredible.

Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bad as those above.

Uh oh, someone hasn't memorized his FW index! Many FW units have 'containment breach' rule which causes D3 (D6 against psykers) mortal wounds when it explodes. And anyway if you get your Dreadclaw or KAC other vehicle in the middle of enemy you can generate goods amounts of mortal wounds from there. Of course you are not going to clear hordes with that, but it's gonna be efficient against characters and vehicles.

Ghorgul wrote:

mario88826 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/05/death-guard-warlord-traits-stratagems-and-relicsgw-homepage-post-2/

Death Guard traits, relics and some others.

Looking incredible.

Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bad as those above.

Uh oh, someone hasn't memorized his FW index! Many FW units have 'containment breach' rule which causes D3 (D6 against psykers) mortal wounds when it explodes. And anyway if you get your Dreadclaw or KAC other vehicle in the middle of enemy you can generate goods amounts of mortal wounds from there. Of course you are not going to clear hordes with that, but it's gonna be efficient against characters and vehicles.

Yeah I'm not expert on FW models. You got me there. But neither i'm rich enough to get those hehe. Not poor either. But still.
And again even if you explode then you may end up wasting your own army even more. As it is DG army seems to be really focused in getting close to opponent. So high chance that your Vehicle will have company of your own units nearby when it goes boom.

I know the Death Guard codex isn't out yet, but the stock Chaos minis from the starter box comes in at about 100 under 1000pts/50PL, and I was wondering if anyone has taking this against a more well prepared 1000pt list and how it faired against that

 takonite wrote:
I know the Death Guard codex isn't out yet, but the stock Chaos minis from the starter box comes in at about 100 under 1000pts/50PL, and I was wondering if anyone has taking this against a more well prepared 1000pt list and how it faired against that

Nowhere 1000 points , even before point values will go down with new codex for sure. As it stands it's

It's exactly 841 points . Probably will be worth in points around 750 when codex will hit. LoC alone will drop 50 points of fat hopefully ... as now his cost is ridiculous.

As combat value of this army goes. Against gunline you will fail horribly and against armies who like to brawl you can actually perform well. Overall against horde armies both poxwalkers who can reinforce themselves against weak infantry and stuff like plague wind - this army seems to be decent.

this starter Box army is inconsistent - they are close combat specialists but have hard time to actually make it there . If you drop your lord to opponent - he will be alone there as everything except for excellent Bloat drone - won't get to enemy lines fast enough. And if you decide to footslog your Lord ... no let's not even consider this. His Movement is 4 and his advance is halved so not even noxious blightbringer will help.

For same reason Typhus supporting Pox Walkers is terrible tactic. You will need like 3 turns at least to reach combat with guy who costs some points and ... guess what ? Is close combat monster . Better deepstrike him with hopefully soon avaible DG termies.

So answer is simple : you won't beat anyone who has any half decent 1000 points army.
But then again with this army you should be fighting 750 point opponents.

Yeah, typhus and deathshroud are two units I'd actually consider loading into a land raider, because deepstrike isn't very reliable for them and they have no guns with enough range to fire before attempting the charge.

Hmmm, I must be missing out on something. I personally think cloud of flies is great. (unless I am reading it wrong).

It reads : use this strategem during your movement phase, Select a Death guard infantry, Until the start of your next movement phase, enemy models can only shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target."

This strategem looks great. This essentially forces the opponent to focus all shooting on an infantry unit you choose. Opponent cannot shoot anything else unless he kills this unit. It dictates what he is allowed to shoot and not to shoot. This means you can take a very tanky infantry unit, cast cloud of pestilence on it for -1 to hit. And then said tanky unit can tank all the shooting the opponent has. I am sure there will be some stuff in your army that you would rather not get shot at. And doesn't this strategem prevent that? What if you have hellbrutes and defilers in your army? Those are vulnerable to heavy support weapons. But now opponent has to focus all his heavy support weapons on that big group of plague marines instead (which are all one wound) because of this strategem, and they are -1 to hit from cloud.

And putrid detonation. If you hellbrute gets destroyed in combat with tons of troops surrounding it. Use this and it goes nova! What's not to like about this strategem. I have seen tons of battle reports where one vehicle exploing did more damage than the vehicle itself! Think about all the Gulliman parking lots and Azreal parking lots out there, where opponent loves to cluster everyting together. One exploding vehicle in there does a ton of damage. And its all mortal wounds too! Deathguard even has a unit that is meant for this strategem... the bloat drone! It flies, and it is meant to get up close and personal because of its flamer weapons. Now, when it is on say 1 or 2 hp, you charge it into the bigggest clump of enemies you can find and use this for a 100% explosion when it dies. Or just use this on a Rhino that is near death. (Or charge it into Gulliman). lol

Right now, CSM doesn't really have a good way to handle punish parking lots. our opponents can freely clump together and get maximum benefit from powerful auras. DeathGuard looks like it is designed specifically to counter such armies. Its auras that do mortal wounds punish you heavily if you clump up to the max together. I haven't done the math yet. But if you take Mortarion, fly him into gulliman or Azreal parking lot, and activate all the possible strategems and what not that inflicts mortal wounds on all those near to Mortarion (plus his lower wound and his aura) ... seriously, I think the carnage will be breath taking. lol

You're reading it wrong.

It makes them UNABLE to target said unit, not unable to target any other unit.

Ah I see now. I was reading it wrong. So, it doesn't force them to shoot that unit. Sorry my bad. :(

Well, people were so afraid that Mortarion would be shot to death in one turn by heavy weapons. Now you can spend one CP and make Mortarion immune to shooting.

as JNAProductions said - you read it wrong.

Fact is this would be awesome stratagem if we had squishy and deadly units that are not first line (because stratagem only protects as long as they are not first in line !) like havocs or obliterators (though may not be squishy still die to lascannons and plasmas).

But surprise we don't have and even if you take them - then you lose DG keyword and long can use this stratagem.

Some of you folks thinks its coincidence that we lost access to certain stuff like bikers/havocs/oblits - well it's starting to show why.

Because if we could oblits then you just drop them 24" from your opponent in unit of 6 (max?) - unleash destruction and they cannot shoot back.

But as it is now we are last army that benefit from this actually very strong stratagem - because we don't have any real benefactors.

Sadly as i was hoping for some bio-weapons/chemical equivalents of havocs.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You're reading it wrong.

It makes them UNABLE to target said unit, not unable to target any other unit.

Actually... that's clearly the intention, due to the description of the flies hiding the unit, but... it does say "enemy units can only shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target". I can see how it could be read as "If it is the closest visible unit, enemies can only shoot this unit."

RAI though is obviously meant to be making the unit unable to be shot. The other way is interesting though, as you could force the enemy to shoot at a chaff unit, wasting their shots for a turn.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Ah I see now. I was reading it wrong. So, it doesn't force them to shoot that unit. Sorry my bad. :(

Well, people were so afraid that Mortarion would be shot to death in one turn by heavy weapons. Now you can spend one CP and make Mortarion immune to shooting.

Once again you read wrong - you can only target infantry. He is flying monster. So yeah he will still die to those heavy weapons.

Edit i just realised this stratagem is even more useless than i was thinking. It's horrible.

Let's read it again - you can use it at start of movement phase. I though you can use it at start of any shooting phase.

Well fk me - now if you go 2nd you won't even have any chance to benefit from this stratagem.

I though it couldn't be any worse - but hey it can.

So in fact if you go 2nd then they are free too unleash as many shells at anything they want. GG

zzz... ok. Darn, I forgot Mortarion is not considered infantry. :(

Now we have to see what kind of special DG units deathguard gets. Because we know they will likely get a special terminator unit. I guess we have to see if its worth using this strategem on a ten man unit of special DG terminators. I mean, terminators are tanky, but they still go down with enough heavy weapon focus.

Huh. 5+++ & 6+++ really is 4/9. Funny, it feels like it should be lower.

I think part of the DG Stratagems is the threat they pose. Yeah, you might not build an army around kamikaze Predators, but the fact that you can punish enemy units for CC kills is going to make them very wary of sending three squads at a vehicle to take turns with their sergeants' power fists.

Come to think of it, kamikaze Helbrutes might not be a bad idea. Really get in there, punching as much stuff as you can and forcing the enemy to run from the ticking time bombs. And we know a DG Zangiefbrute is a fantastic model! They'll probably be given higher priority to take out before reaching enemy lines, so their utility as a Distraction Carnifex is improved - whether or not you actually intend to use the Stratagem at all. What's that line, the best deterrent is one you don't need to use?

Defilers are pretty decent now. And quite tanky, so good chance of getting into close combat. Casting putrid detonation on a defiler when it dies has a certain appeal. Especially considering how big the defiler is, you could probably have it touch more than one unit before it dies by clever positioning.

mario88826 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Ah I see now. I was reading it wrong. So, it doesn't force them to shoot that unit. Sorry my bad. :(

Well, people were so afraid that Mortarion would be shot to death in one turn by heavy weapons. Now you can spend one CP and make Mortarion immune to shooting.

Once again you read wrong - you can only target infantry. He is flying monster. So yeah he will still die to those heavy weapons.

Edit i just realised this stratagem is even more useless than i was thinking. It's horrible.

Let's read it again - you can use it at start of movement phase. I though you can use it at start of any shooting phase.

Well fk me - now if you go 2nd you won't even have any chance to benefit from this stratagem.

I though it couldn't be any worse - but hey it can.

So in fact if you go 2nd then they are free too unleash as many shells at anything they want. GG

Not sure why you're so down on a release that hasn't even happened yet man. There's a lot of stuff to be excited about. While it's true that the optimal units for cloud of flies (double shooting oblits, noise marines, zerkers) aren't able to be targeted, the ability to make any infantry unit immune to shooting (assuming you know how to screen) is actually a really big deal. Walk up any close combat unit of your choosing. It'll cost you 2 CP but they will get to the opponent's lines completely untouched. Totally worth it every game. Or pick your favorite shooting unit (which who knows what options we'll have access to with the new units). As many turns as you'd like, complete immunity to shooting. Absolutely amazing.

The auto exploding vehicle is also excellent. That's a lot of mortal wounds.

And can we please, please stop the "Mortarion will get blown off the board turn 1" talk? It's embarrassingly fallacious. Overall, it seems that Mortarion will be a solid addition to any army (and with the talk of his weapon being a premier horde killer, I'm excited since hordes are totally the meta right now). I doubt a pure death guard army will be top tier competitive, but I don't see them struggling to compete at the tournament level like they previously did. Death Guard is looking really solid, especially if you don't mind having a second regular CSM detachment. I believe that does entitle the Death Guard units to using generic CSM stratagems, though that could probably use an FAQ. All the death guard would really want is Veterans of the Long War. And don't forget that a generic CSM sorcerer can cast stuff from the regular CSM dex on them (give me that Miasma of pestilence).

 lindsay40k wrote:
Huh. 5+++ & 6+++ really is 4/9. Funny, it feels like it should be lower.

I think part of the DG Stratagems is the threat they pose. Yeah, you might not build an army around kamikaze Predators, but the fact that you can punish enemy units for CC kills is going to make them very wary of sending three squads at a vehicle to take turns with their sergeants' power fists.

Come to think of it, kamikaze Helbrutes might not be a bad idea. Really get in there, punching as much stuff as you can and forcing the enemy to run from the ticking time bombs. And we know a DG Zangiefbrute is a fantastic model! They'll probably be given higher priority to take out before reaching enemy lines, so their utility as a Distraction Carnifex is improved - whether or not you actually intend to use the Stratagem at all. What's that line, the best deterrent is one you don't need to use?

correct 5++ & 6++ is 4/9 and on top of that you get 1 Wound. Not only that but you get 4/9 against all wounds including mortal. Where our new trait ... says for unknown reason that it doesn't help with MW.

But i'm just to prove to you guys (if i fail at math - sucks since i have master degree at it after all) - that our stratagems and traits are far from "incredible".
I will go even further - Mortarion aura of destruction - let's talk about facts. First of all damage is no given - it's 50%-50%. So it may aswell not go off at all.
On top of that expected value per unit in range is just 1 mortal wound - yes that is correct 1 Boy dead often ... that is if those units don't have any FNP there !!
How is that even comparable to Guilliman aura to reroll everything ? No doubt that will dish out more damage - and you don't need to kamikaze your primarch.

I feel more and more disappointed as i'm coming back to hobby and I found those godly looking DG miniatures . But DG suck so far and the more info they reveal - even worse they become.

And let me tell you that I don't consider everything bad that i like in order to get buffs.

Another army i consider (although i got some DG now already ;x) is Thousand Sons. And damn they are incredible. Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT and dish way out more damage than Plague Marines . Scarab occult terminators are near invicible to any damage 1 weapons even those with negative AP !! On top of that they have tons of dakka with those brilliant inferno combi bolters.
Magnus is superpowerful too. Ahriman, tzaangors ... they sure don't have many units but they are all DECENT.

I will wait with judgement till DG codex drops. But looks like we are paying gigantic tax per any unit in DG army for disgustingly resilent while we don't get any real offensive punch in world of alpha strike ...
So sad about it, can't even picture myself not buying/painting those DG termies and Mortarion :((. But i won't take gimped army that cannot beat anyone who actually tries :(.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:

mario88826 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Ah I see now. I was reading it wrong. So, it doesn't force them to shoot that unit. Sorry my bad. :(

Well, people were so afraid that Mortarion would be shot to death in one turn by heavy weapons. Now you can spend one CP and make Mortarion immune to shooting.

Once again you read wrong - you can only target infantry. He is flying monster. So yeah he will still die to those heavy weapons.

Edit i just realised this stratagem is even more useless than i was thinking. It's horrible.

Let's read it again - you can use it at start of movement phase. I though you can use it at start of any shooting phase.

Well fk me - now if you go 2nd you won't even have any chance to benefit from this stratagem.

I though it couldn't be any worse - but hey it can.

So in fact if you go 2nd then they are free too unleash as many shells at anything they want. GG

Not sure why you're so down on a release that hasn't even happened yet man. There's a lot of stuff to be excited about. While it's true that the optimal units for cloud of flies (double shooting oblits, noise marines, zerkers) aren't able to be targeted, the ability to make any infantry unit immune to shooting (assuming you know how to screen) is actually a really big deal. Walk up any close combat unit of your choosing. It'll cost you 2 CP but they will get to the opponent's lines completely untouched. Totally worth it every game. Or pick your favorite shooting unit (which who knows what options we'll have access to with the new units). As many turns as you'd like, complete immunity to shooting. Absolutely amazing.

The auto exploding vehicle is also excellent. That's a lot of mortal wounds.

And can we please, please stop the "Mortarion will get blown off the board turn 1" talk? It's embarrassingly fallacious. Overall, it seems that Mortarion will be a solid addition to any army (and with the talk of his weapon being a premier horde killer, I'm excited since hordes are totally the meta right now). I doubt a pure death guard army will be top tier competitive, but I don't see them struggling to compete at the tournament level like they previously did. Death Guard is looking really solid, especially if you don't mind having a second regular CSM detachment. I believe that does entitle the Death Guard units to using generic CSM stratagems, though that could probably use an FAQ. All the death guard would really want is Veterans of the Long War. And don't forget that a generic CSM sorcerer can cast stuff from the regular CSM dex on them (give me that Miasma of pestilence).

You are completely right, but i'm purist (hahaha sounds awkward when talking about Nurgle). Seems like DG when supported or mixed with others can perform well - i'm sure. But sadly as you mentioned pure DG seems like poor idea.

Ok let's talk about positives.

Nurgle Daemon prince with 2x malefic talons + new plate + CSM FNP sounds like some crazy combo. What we get :

9Wounds (just 1 under being targetable by lascannons)
6 Toughness - very solid
2+/5++ with reflecting mortal wounds when you save !!
5+++ / 6+++ stoping ~~ 44% damage including mortal wounds !!
On top of that with or without wings he fast , strong and 7 attacks combined with warp bolter aura to reroll 1's this guy sounds like total MVP.
Ah i forgot he is psyker on top of that. Total Steal and just makes lord of contagion look like total joke even more.

For sure will take 1... if not 2 actually. Though 2nd wont get those relics/trait ;/.

Let's wait until the whole DG codex comes out first and see. sometimes, all you need is one amazing strategem or psychic power or unit and then everything changes. There are still strategems they haven't shown. Some psychic powers not shown yet, and also some units not shown either. Maybe those plague bleacher like tanks are really really good? Or the new DG terminators? Or some unit they haven't shown yet.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Let's wait until the whole DG codex comes out first and see. sometimes, all you need is one amazing strategem or psychic power or unit and then everything changes. There are still strategems they haven't shown. Some psychic powers not shown yet, and also some units not shown either. Maybe those plague bleacher like tanks are really really good? Or the new DG terminators? Or some unit they haven't shown yet.

Haha you are right, i'm bitching cuz i'm tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hyped for those DGs.

Ok they underperform as of now but we still got crapton of hidden stratagems/legion traits/warlord traits/relics/psychic powers and units ... I may aswell not run units i don't like now - pox & plague marine and just go for some fancy vanguard termicide ).

Anyway, they have yet to reveal the DG legion traits also. They confirmed that DR is not a legion trait. So, this is something that affects all DG infantry and dreadnaughts,

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyway, they have yet to reveal the DG legion traits also. They confirmed that DR is not a legion trait. So, this is something that affects all DG infantry and dreadnaughts,

Kinda sad that since we don't have bikers and our iconic "dread" is Bloat drone - I would prefer it to be affected by Legion trait - in place of our non-existent bikers. Because lets face it we all love new bloat drone - it's lovely. I'm really curious about 2 other weapons for CC and long range.

As of DG trait I have no clue what it can be, but I hope it won't be rerolling 1's on FNP. That would be lame as no bikers or brutes could benefit from it in first place.

mario88826 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyway, they have yet to reveal the DG legion traits also. They confirmed that DR is not a legion trait. So, this is something that affects all DG infantry and dreadnaughts,

Kinda sad that since we don't have bikers and our iconic "dread" is Bloat drone - I would prefer it to be affected by Legion trait - in place of our non-existent bikers. Because lets face it we all love new bloat drone - it's lovely. I'm really curious about 2 other weapons for CC and long range.

As of DG trait I have no clue what it can be, but I hope it won't be rerolling 1's on FNP. That would be lame as no bikers or brutes could benefit from it in first place.

I haven't looked at many of the leaks of the DG codex yet, have they shown bikers/helbrute rules that show they don't get FNP? I thought everything in the DG codex got Disgustingly Resilient.

If not, then the legion trait may be something like "All infanty, bikers and helbrutes in a DG detachment gain disgustingly resilient."

Niiru wrote:
Actually... that's clearly the intention, due to the description of the flies hiding the unit, but... it does say "enemy units can only shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target". I can see how it could be read as "If it is the closest visible unit, enemies can only shoot this unit."

But... but... English... not how works it...

I can only eat ice cream if it is frozen. <-- implies the ice cream must be cold to be eaten
If it is frozen, I can only eat ice cream. <-- implies my food selections are limited to junk food

Sometimes it works either way but not always and that's why you can't just switch things around like that.