Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Note that originally there WAS an answer to a question related to Helbrutes and the trait and it was answered hastily, but that answer has since been deleted and replaced TWICE with "we have sent this to the studio" because it was pointed out that the text wasn't capitalized and bolded like other keywords.
So if you happened to see the answer before they retconned it, I'm sorry to say that FW dreads do not currently receive the Death Guard legion trait.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/12 20:51:09
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
Note that originally there WAS an answer to a question related to Helbrutes and the trait and it was answered hastily, but that answer has since been deleted and replaced TWICE with "we have sent this to the studio" because it was pointed out that the text wasn't capitalized and bolded like other keywords.
So if you happened to see the answer before they retconned it, I'm sorry to say that FW dreads do not currently receive the Death Guard legion trait.
From what you've shown there, it isn't retconned at all: they didn't confirm either way whether FW dreads get it.
I'm guessing the DG codex was written around a similar time to the CSM codex so they haven't had time to change the wording that they had to FAQ into the CSM codex.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Warning on the DG trait. As it stands it works on helbrutes, not HELLBRUTEs
GW confirmed on Facebook that traits work on FW dreads ages ago.
Ages ago as in the chaos codex release? Cos Death Guard is worded differently
I don't remember when, all I remember was warhammer 40,000 facebook discussing using tactics on FW dreads. Also, it isn't worded differently really, the only difference is the lack of bikes on the DG tactic, you have to remember these were probably written around the same time so they'd both have the same highlight mistake on the legion tactics.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/12 21:04:34
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
mrhappyface wrote: From what you've shown there, it isn't retconned at all: they didn't confirm either way whether FW dreads get it.
When they literally delete the answer you were referring to, that's what I mean by retconned. They unconfirmed it and gave you this nonconfirmational answer instead, which indicates that currently it needs an FAQ to allow it.
mrhappyface wrote: From
I'm guessing the DG codex was written around a similar time to the CSM codex so they haven't had time to change the wording that they had to FAQ into the CSM codex.
Except they never FAQed it into the CSM codex. The FAQ in the CSM codex version added DAEMON PRINCE to the list, nothing else. The CSM codex has always allowed traits for Helbrute KEYWORD units with the capitalized and bolded text face. The DG codex trait is literally written differently from the CSM one.
Here's what another poster put in the Chaos facebook group explaining it:
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
Got a bit of a dilema here guys maybe maths needed?
So big nasty fellblade with a sorcerer rocking next to it
Do i go for MoT for weaver of fates for a 5++
or do i go for MoN for Miasma for -1 to hit rolls
both cast on a 6.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/12 22:25:31
Latro_ wrote: Got a bit of a dilema here guys maybe maths needed?
So big nasty fellblade with a sorcerer rocking next to it
Do i go for MoT for weaver of fates for a 5++
or do i go for MoN for Miasma for -1 to hit rolls
Depends on your likely opponents. Against BS2, Nurgle. Against BS4, Tzeentch. Against BS3, either.
Niiru wrote: Just thought I'd throw out my current thoughts on a Dark Mechanicum list, to see what kind of feedback I get (before I start buying lots of expensive models lol).
Daemon Prince with Wings - 2xMalefic Talons, Warp Bolter
Chaos Lord - Combi-Bolter, Chain Sword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
(or 1 squad of 10 and infiltrate them as alpha legion?)
Cultists x 30 - 15x Autoguns, 15xAuto pistol + ccw (not sure what the best way to field these are, thought a mix might work as that's the current thinking in boyz mobs haha)
Hellforged leviathan dreadnought - Butcher Cannon Array, Grav Flux Bombard, 2xHellflamer
(considering downgrading to a deredeo with butcher array + twin heavy bolter + Havoc Launcher)
Total points = 1878, or about 1790 if I take a Deredeo instead of Leviathan. So still some points left to spend in a full 2k list.
Thinking Alpha Legion would be a good pick for the trait, giving everything a bit more protection in the first couple of turns from long range fire. But any other suggestions are welcome!
Thanks
Adding on to this, but specifically about the Contemptors (though it also relates to what I was talking to someone about the Levi/Deredeos)... Is the loadout I'm using for these any good? They aren't too expensive, but it would be even cheaper to go with double kheres and get more shots... but it means losing the CCW (same as double-grav Levi, ending up with no fists). So having the contempters moving around and shooting and maybe attacking units, they would only be punching at base strength and with no AP or D modifiers. Thats why I kept them both with 1 claw + soulburner... may need playtesting (though so does the whole list tbh)
So the butcher array is a little stronger, and has 12" more range which is good, so it's probably a better weapon all together even with the 2 less shots.... but it's also 80 points. Storm cannon is only 50 points. The butcher cannon is almost in double-storm territory, and it's not THAT much better is it?!
Butcher cannon arry does seem a little overpriced when compared to the storm cannon (but not by much), but thats nothing new for chaos. If a chaos leviathan could take storm cannons, I probably would, but they cant so oh well. Since I keep mine in the back field, I go double butcher cannon. If I were to use the grav-flux bombard (and I got the arm so I might), I would probably keep one cc on him. Havent user this yet though.
He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.
Thats true, but if you take double grav then you have no CCWs, so you wouldn't have any AP or anything if you get into melee. Which you will, I assume, at that sort of range. That's why I thought it would be better to keep the enemy at range... but I may be wrong, as I haven't actually played a game with dreads as yet!
I've played a full lev list against 3 different lists:
1. 2x Valdors + Malchadore + 50 conscripts + support tanks. This was a very close game but I was tabled in the end whilst my opponent was left with his 2x support vehicles.
2. Stompas + 60 orks + 6 meganobz + 2x Big meks. I tabled him with 4/5 levs still alive.
3. 2x Stompas. I tabled him with 3/5 levs left.
This sounds like a fun list. Do you give everything a gun and cc weapon or do you double up on some depending on thier role?
Yeh, on my Leviathan draft I actually gave him 1x butcher array and 1x grav flux, for the maximum variety of shootiness. However it does kinda waste the butcher's range, or if at long range it makes the Grav unable to shoot. Tricky.
You also do seem to be paying a tax for the Leviathan's close combat ability (his 2+WS) even if you're only using him as a shooty platform with no CCWs. The Deredeo can take a butcher array + twin heavy bolter (lot of dakka there) plus either the hellfire veil for a 5++ bubble, or a havoc launcher for even more long range shots (that ignore LOS). Maxed out, the deredeo is about 100 points cheaper, and you seem to pretty much just lose the 2+WS (that you don't need anyway?).
I was under the impression chaos leviathans had to to take the same range weapon if they take 2? Can ee mix and match the butcher cannon array and the grav-flux bombard?
Niiru wrote: Just thought I'd throw out my current thoughts on a Dark Mechanicum list, to see what kind of feedback I get (before I start buying lots of expensive models lol).
Daemon Prince with Wings - 2xMalefic Talons, Warp Bolter
Chaos Lord - Combi-Bolter, Chain Sword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
(or 1 squad of 10 and infiltrate them as alpha legion?)
Cultists x 30 - 15x Autoguns, 15xAuto pistol + ccw (not sure what the best way to field these are, thought a mix might work as that's the current thinking in boyz mobs haha)
Hellforged leviathan dreadnought - Butcher Cannon Array, Grav Flux Bombard, 2xHellflamer
(considering downgrading to a deredeo with butcher array + twin heavy bolter + Havoc Launcher)
Total points = 1878, or about 1790 if I take a Deredeo instead of Leviathan. So still some points left to spend in a full 2k list.
Thinking Alpha Legion would be a good pick for the trait, giving everything a bit more protection in the first couple of turns from long range fire. But any other suggestions are welcome!
Thanks
Adding on to this, but specifically about the Contemptors (though it also relates to what I was talking to someone about the Levi/Deredeos)... Is the loadout I'm using for these any good? They aren't too expensive, but it would be even cheaper to go with double kheres and get more shots... but it means losing the CCW (same as double-grav Levi, ending up with no fists). So having the contempters moving around and shooting and maybe attacking units, they would only be punching at base strength and with no AP or D modifiers. Thats why I kept them both with 1 claw + soulburner... may need playtesting (though so does the whole list tbh)
I use 2 chainfist with soulburners on my contemptor and it works amazing! I tried going range with him, but my leviathan seems to handle that so much better, so I end up sticking with cc for the contemptor. I may even do the same thing with the leviathan once I get a deredeo dread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/12 22:35:14
I was under the impression chaos leviathans had to to take the same range weapon if they take 2? Can ee mix and match the butcher cannon array and the grav-flux bombard?
I edited this before I finished writing it, the FW errata has actually altered it to read "or may exchange both claws and take two of the following". So seems I'd have to take two butchers or two grav flux. That's a shame really. Deredeo seeming like a better shooting platform, unless you really want/need to double up on the firepower.
Adding on to this, but specifically about the Contemptors (though it also relates to what I was talking to someone about the Levi/Deredeos)... Is the loadout I'm using for these any good? They aren't too expensive, but it would be even cheaper to go with double kheres and get more shots... but it means losing the CCW (same as double-grav Levi, ending up with no fists). So having the contempters moving around and shooting and maybe attacking units, they would only be punching at base strength and with no AP or D modifiers. Thats why I kept them both with 1 claw + soulburner... may need playtesting (though so does the whole list tbh)
I use 2 chainfist with soulburners on my contemptor and it works amazing! I tried going range with him, but my leviathan seems to handle that so much better, so I end up sticking with cc for the contemptor. I may even do the same thing with the leviathan once I get a deredeo dread.
173-Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Combi-Melta and Force Staff
195-3 Obliterators
195-3 Obliterators
195-3 Obliterators
1 CP
So the idea is I drop the Sorcerer and Obliterators down turn 1 to start wrecking face, bringing up Epidemius's Tally. Then, hopefully, once the opponent has dealt with my Oblits, I'll have moved up my other units and be in position to murder hard.
One big question I have though-would a Lord be better than a Sorcerer? Sorcerer gives me Prescience on one squad of Oblits, as well as Smite or Death Hex or something, and some denial. Lord gives them all rerolls of 1, though...
And what Legion would be best?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
I haven't used the Chaos version, but my Loyalist Relic Contemptor has been a Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist and that's been doing pretty great for me. I would recommend trying the same thing.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
7 Havocs <Slaanesh> 159 Hs Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Frag, Krak, 4x Meltaguns
Asp Champ: Power fist
3x Quad Heavy Bolter Rapiers <Nurgle> 246 Hs 6x Marines, 3x Rapiers w/ Quad Heavy Bolters
3x Obilterators <Slaanesh> 195 Hs Fleshmetal Guns
Fire Raptor Gunship <Nurgle> 362 Fl
Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, 2x Quad Heavy Bolters
Hellstrike Missiles
Battalion
Maleific Lord 30 hq
Maleific Lord 30 hq
Maleific Lord 30 hq
14 Brimstone Horrors 42 t
13 Brimstone Horrors 39 t
13 Brimstone Horrors 39 t
Super Heavy Auxiliary <Alpha Legion>
Fellblade <Nurgle> 697 Low
2x Quad Lascannons, Twin Heavy Bolter
Demolisher cannon, Accelerator Cannon
Oooo, that's a lot of dakka! 66x S5 Ap-1 shots, 12(24)x S~8 AP-~2 D~2, 8x S9 AP-3 Dd6, 4x S8 AP-4 Dd6, etc. That's a lot of shooting!
My only concern is that, at 12 drops, you won't get first turn. That means that your opponant is gonna try and drop your fellblade (or at least drop it to BS5+) before you can get your -1 to hit down and without your fellblade you've lost all of your anti-armour capabilities since you can't rely on your Oblits for S9 AP-3 D3 attacks and your havocs aren't gonna get into range. I'd just be careful, I know the sting of not going first all too well.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
173-Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Combi-Melta and Force Staff
195-3 Obliterators
195-3 Obliterators
195-3 Obliterators
1 CP
So the idea is I drop the Sorcerer and Obliterators down turn 1 to start wrecking face, bringing up Epidemius's Tally. Then, hopefully, once the opponent has dealt with my Oblits, I'll have moved up my other units and be in position to murder hard.
One big question I have though-would a Lord be better than a Sorcerer? Sorcerer gives me Prescience on one squad of Oblits, as well as Smite or Death Hex or something, and some denial. Lord gives them all rerolls of 1, though...
And what Legion would be best?
Is your Prince a Heretic Astartes one? If so, Word Bearers would enable him to drop a large aura buff. Though that's probably less useful than giving the Oblits Alpha Legion Trait.
If you aren't specifically going full Nurgle, you might like to go Tzeentch on the Sorcerer to take the +1 Smite artefact.
You might like to switch some Drones for the various Death Guard FA Daemon vehicle, they could finish off some units the Oblits didn't quite wipe out.
I was under the impression chaos leviathans had to to take the same range weapon if they take 2? Can ee mix and match the butcher cannon array and the grav-flux bombard?
I edited this before I finished writing it, the FW errata has actually altered it to read "or may exchange both claws and take two of the following". So seems I'd have to take two butchers or two grav flux. That's a shame really. Deredeo seeming like a better shooting platform, unless you really want/need to double up on the firepower.
Adding on to this, but specifically about the Contemptors (though it also relates to what I was talking to someone about the Levi/Deredeos)... Is the loadout I'm using for these any good? They aren't too expensive, but it would be even cheaper to go with double kheres and get more shots... but it means losing the CCW (same as double-grav Levi, ending up with no fists). So having the contempters moving around and shooting and maybe attacking units, they would only be punching at base strength and with no AP or D modifiers. Thats why I kept them both with 1 claw + soulburner... may need playtesting (though so does the whole list tbh)
I use 2 chainfist with soulburners on my contemptor and it works amazing! I tried going range with him, but my leviathan seems to handle that so much better, so I end up sticking with cc for the contemptor. I may even do the same thing with the leviathan once I get a deredeo dread.
However, the FW errata allowed for havoc launchers on contemptors now, so I could still use that model and convert the assault gun to a mortar....
I agree that the deredeo seems like the best option to go all out in shooting, the other dreads waste that WS2+ when they have only range weapons. Until I get the deredeo though, I will be sticking with double range on the leviathan and double cc on the contemptor.
In regards to the deredeo, has anyone used both the greater havoc launcher and the veil? A 5++ bubble seems good when taken as part of a gunline, but I am wondering if it is worth loosing out on that awesome indirect fire launcher.
7 Havocs <Slaanesh> 159 Hs Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Frag, Krak, 4x Meltaguns
Asp Champ: Power fist
3x Quad Heavy Bolter Rapiers <Nurgle> 246 Hs 6x Marines, 3x Rapiers w/ Quad Heavy Bolters
3x Obilterators <Slaanesh> 195 Hs Fleshmetal Guns
Fire Raptor Gunship <Nurgle> 362 Fl
Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, 2x Quad Heavy Bolters
Hellstrike Missiles
Battalion
Maleific Lord 30 hq
Maleific Lord 30 hq
Maleific Lord 30 hq
14 Brimstone Horrors 42 t
13 Brimstone Horrors 39 t
13 Brimstone Horrors 39 t
Super Heavy Auxiliary <Alpha Legion>
Fellblade <Nurgle> 697 Low
2x Quad Lascannons, Twin Heavy Bolter
Demolisher cannon, Accelerator Cannon
Oooo, that's a lot of dakka! 66x S5 Ap-1 shots, 12(24)x S~8 AP-~2 D~2, 8x S9 AP-3 Dd6, 4x S8 AP-4 Dd6, etc. That's a lot of shooting!
My only concern is that, at 12 drops, you won't get first turn. That means that your opponant is gonna try and drop your fellblade (or at least drop it to BS5+) before you can get your -1 to hit down and without your fellblade you've lost all of your anti-armour capabilities since you can't rely on your Oblits for S9 AP-3 D3 attacks and your havocs aren't gonna get into range. I'd just be careful, I know the sting of not going first all too well.
Done forget 2d6 s8 -3 1dm OR 2 s14 -4 dm6 from the FB cannon
and another 10 6 -2 2dm from the fire raptor
Its a deceptive amount of dakka this list toruney is running the +1 if you drop first from upcoming chapter approved so it might not be to bad.
If they can kill it first turn with 26 wounds t9 and a 2+ save fair play to em
Idea is to also put prescience on the FB /FR for hitting on 2's and blow a cmd pt on ignore - for heavy weps if FB needs to move.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/12 22:57:54
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I haven't used the Chaos version, but my Loyalist Relic Contemptor has been a Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist and that's been doing pretty great for me. I would recommend trying the same thing.
So is that just one chain fist? I guess thats the imperial equivalent to the 1x claw + 1x kheres assault cannon (heavy 6, S7)
Latro_ wrote: Done forget 2d6 s8 -3 1dm OR 2 s14 -4 dm6 from the FB cannon
and another 10 6 -2 2dm from the fire raptor
Its a deceptive amount of dakka this list toruney is running the +1 if you drop first from upcoming chapter approved so it might not be to bad.
If they can kill it first turn with 26 wounds t9 and a 2+ save fair play to em
Idea is to also put prescience on the FB /FR for hitting on 2's and blow a cmd pt on ignore - for heavy weps if FB needs to move.
I was just thinking of one of my friend's tourney lists that is heavy anti-armour: he's got two Valdor Tank hunters with support vehicles that give +1 to hit and re-rolls to hit, nasty stuff. He'd most certainly bring your fellblade down turn 1 as he did to my Fire Raptor... and my Zerkers... All of them.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
And I'm working with (mostly) what I own. I do have a lord, though, so which would be better?
And is Alpha Legion really the best? I'm probably gonna drop them in close.
I'd give it a few tries using DP as HA, the re-roll bubble, ability to hide behind units, and extra Hereticus spell is pretty good. Plus it'll free up points that could get more bodies in play. But if you want it CD DP, then you'll probably get more from a Lord than a Sorcerer... though access to Death Hex could make a huge difference, Thunderwolves are the bane of 3W infantry and access to DH will tame them.
AL is pretty good... you may be dropping in close, but it's not hard to keep a bit of distance from gunner units you can't delete. And if they move forwards to shoot at you from 12", that's less distance the Drones have to cover.
If there's likely a lot of terrain, IW might be decent. Their Stratagem can really frustrate a multi-shot 3W attack as well.
Nurglings aren't there to stop your opponent's deep striking units. They're there to stop your opponent's infiltrators. They do this marvelously because nurglings deploy during your actual deployment but infiltrators do so afterwards.
So you'll always be able to either:
A) secure a landing spot for YOUR infiltrators
or
B) deny your opponent the ideal spot for HIS infiltrators
If you are using them for step A, go for it 100% of the time. If it's for step B, it's a lot more situational but still good IMO. Especially because you can just throw them off in a corner, preferably out of LOS, if you don't need them.
