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Dark Apostle is a fine accompaniment to Berzerkers, Exalted Champion is also good in this regard but if you can only afford one then DA is the priority.

Warp Talons are a bit gimmicky but there are situations in which a successful (Warptimed?) charge from DS will be a game changer. They don't need to be a big expensive unit, as their role is to play Jet Set Radio and tag a big nasty to blind its Overwatch to the LoS or whatever who's coming in to chop it up. Or set a Fiends of Slaanesh tarpit. As Overwatch buffs proliferate (the recently revealed IG rules are probably going to be horrific), they'll get better and better.

Not sure if I'd say Land Raider is good... the GW line that everything has Assault Vehicle is nonsense, it has clearly lost a lot of utility by not being able to move and disembark troops in the same turn. Plus it's lost 2" of movement, and in practical terms it's 2+D6" slower than the Rhino because you're going to want to fire its guns on the approach. For the same outlay I could have a Predator and two Rhinos.

Chosen, I'd list as strong but overcosted.

One Forgefiend seems fairly good, using Daemonforge. LasherFiends seem to be doing well.

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
Here are the opinions on Chaos units, resumed in one word/sentence, what are your thought about it :

HQ :
- Daemon Prince : Must have
- Lord : Good
- Sorcerer : Fuc**ng good
- Dark Apostle : Optionnal (only if lots of cultist)
- Warpsmith ??

Troops :
- Chaos space marine : Meh..
- Cultist : Best CSM troops (exept if you are EC or WE)
- NM & Berzeker : Best trops in 8th edition ?

Elit :
- Terminators : Eventually good with combi weapon and mark of Slaanesh
- Chosen : Overcosted
- Possessed : Eventually if you cant take Berzeker
- Helbrute : Best Elite slot
- Mutilator : Trash tier

Rhino : Must have if you got some infantry without deep strike more valuable than cultist (Possessed, Bezeker, Noise etc...)

Fast attack :
- Bikers ?
- Raptors : Bad ?
- Warp talon : Bad
- Spawn : Best fast attack in chaos ?

Heldrake : Meh ?

Support :
- Land Raider : Good ?
- Predator : Best CSM support unit ?
- Havocs : Second best CSM support unit if you can take Slaanesh mark ?
- Obliterators : Good now they are Assault4 ?
- Vindicator : Bad ?
- Forgefiend ? Maulerfiend ?
- Defiler ?

I don't know about helbrutes being top for elites, in my experience so far my AL plasma chosen have been getting sh*t done.
Now that people have had a chance to playtest helbrutes a bit more, what are your favourite loadouts?

Also I would say bikers are "good". Fast mobile shooting platforms, that are also quite resiliant. They make a good escort for DP with wings.

I am finding my bikers to be a nice unit and it surprises me making me actually repair my disarray bike squads.

I used AL infiltrating plasma chosen this last weekend. My dice were super cold this weekend which sucked for the entire game but still even so they did a damn good job hitting the back line where I wanted on the first turn. Also remember if you don't go first you don't have infiltrate them next your opponent put them mid field to grab something in cover.

My vidicator is a waste even at 135 points. It just doesn't hurt anything.

My heldrake actually tends to just be a fire magnet but if it survives a turn or two it does real work.

Havocs are great and cheap. Plasma or long range they are good.

Oblits are fantastic.

Termis are fantastic.

My raptors actually due well as a suicide unit and a sniper unit.

My defiler has killed a few named characters so he gets an okay rating.

My helbrutes just die on turn one. I think I have gotten to shoot with them once.

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
Here are the opinions on Chaos units, resumed in one word/sentence, what are your thought about it :

Spoiler:

HQ :
- Daemon Prince : Must have
- Lord : Good
- Sorcerer : Fuc**ng good
- Dark Apostle : Optionnal (only if lots of cultist)
- Warpsmith ??

Troops :
- Chaos space marine : Meh..
- Cultist : Best CSM troops (exept if you are EC or WE)
- NM & Berzeker : Best trops in 8th edition ?

Elit :
- Terminators : Eventually good with combi weapon and mark of Slaanesh
- Chosen : Overcosted
- Possessed : Eventually if you cant take Berzeker
- Helbrute : Best Elite slot
- Mutilator : Trash tier

Rhino : Must have if you got some infantry without deep strike more valuable than cultist (Possessed, Bezeker, Noise etc...)

Fast attack :
- Bikers ?
- Raptors : Bad ?
- Warp talon : Bad
- Spawn : Best fast attack in chaos ?

Heldrake : Meh ?

Support :
- Land Raider : Good ?
- Predator : Best CSM support unit ?
- Havocs : Second best CSM support unit if you can take Slaanesh mark ?
- Obliterators : Good now they are Assault4 ?
- Vindicator : Bad ?
- Forgefiend ? Maulerfiend ?
- Defiler ?

A few thoughts on how to improve this list.

- Lord: Good, makes everyone else better.

- Warpsmith: Cheap HQ for secondary detachments.

- Noise Marines / Khorne Berzerkers: Best shooting unit in the game. Best assault unit in the game, when they can get there.

- Bikers: meh. Harassment unit for enemy chaff that becomes expensive objective grabber late game.

- Raptors: meh. The new Termicide, but without the hassle of invulnerable saves.

- Warp Talon: Good. Proof Deep Strike + Warp Time can work as a tactic.

- Heldrake: meh. For harassing marginal units early game.

- Havocs: meh. Ablative wounds with heavy weapons to lose in morale checks.

- Vindicator: Bad. Lascannon magnet with 24 inch range.

- Forgefiend: meh. When you really want to use all your command points on Daemonforge.

- Maulerfiend: meh. When you really want to use all your command points on charge rerolls.

- Defiler: Good. Autotake when you run out of Laspred models.

Plus, no list is complete without Forgeworld All-Stars.

- Hellforged Kharybdis Assault Claw: Great. Eats enemy vehicles while delivering troops.

- Hellforged Relic Predator: Good. Upgraded Predator with options to downgrade for more points.

- Hellforged Spartan Assault Tank: Great. Land Raider that falls back without penalty.

- Hellforged Rapier: Great. For when you want Helbrute guns without the Helbrute.

- Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship: Great. Flying laspred with double the guns, more wounds plus extra missiles.

Hi Guys,

So I am building an Ork-CSM list, aka, my chaosy-ork monstrosities. So I have what by now must only be described as a fetish for big walkers and robot/deamonic/orky/killy fings. I had at first been thinking DG, but the more I look at the CSM codex the more I realise how strong some of the standard stuff is! especially with legion bonuses.

So;
2x defiler (a must, because I just made 2 awesome models)
3-5 helbrutes
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought

and then what to suppliment?
Is a warpsmith decent? seems like the most useful on paper for the list, but not seeing that many opinions on them. repairs d3 wounds seems his best bonus.

Then I cant decide between Night lords or alpha legion, as both the helbrutes and Contemptor gain the buff, which paired with say the butcher cannon seems like a solid way to add extra damage output in the morale phase. Question is, is that better than say alpha legion, as I am going to need the helbrutes in close range for the morale casualties to be maximised, whereas a flat -1 to being hit on a full mech list seems brutal.

Thoughts? If you could only bring the biggest baddest stompiest machina of death, what would you bring? and have I missed out a potentially good legion other than NL and AL?
--------------------------------------------------

Oh My God. I only just realised that I can form a detatchment from as many legions as you wish. Wow, that opens it up a bit. So if I have this right, I can make the defliers DG, to remove the penalty for firing and moving heavy weapons. while giving my helbrutes AL to make them more resilient to shooting. Then I can focus the helbrutes on horde mulching, while the defiler pumps out the AT goodness.
Man, I am liking this new dex.

the above is correct? I haven't misread the rules on legions have i?

To get the legion bonus the entire detachment has to be the same legion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And defilers can't get the DG trait anyway

Is mass hellbrutes for the cp stratagem to fire twice any good? Thanks.

Havocs improve noticeably when inserted into a bastion or similar fortification. They far outclass the predator.

Chosen are definitely not overcosted. Compared to the regular Chaos Marine, 3 points gives you an extra Attack and LD, and easier special weapon saturation. Plus, with slots not being too contested for with multiple detachments, you can easily fit them in.

Something im toying around with the idea of
Csm + daemons mono nurgle 1500 points
Battalion
Daemon prince wings 2 x talons nurgle miasma
Sorceror nurgle force stave plasma pistol prescience warp time

Troops
7 csm 5 guys bolt pistol chain sword 1 melta gun champion with Plasma pistol power sword
7 csm 5 bolters plasma gun combi plasma
14 cultists flamer

2 x rhinos (for csm squads)

Fast attack
3 bikers 2 flamers combi flamer nurgle

Heavy support
Tri las pred
3 obliterators
Defiler with heavy flamer + twin las

Patrol detachment
HQ
Great unclean one ( powers wise im thinking fleshy abundance and the +1 to wound one)

Troops
10 plague bearers icin
3 nurgling bases

Got to point it up its probably not very competitive but has the potential to be fun. Warlord will be the DP taking unholy fortitude.

 Arkaine wrote:
Havocs improve noticeably when inserted into a bastion or similar fortification. They far outclass the predator.

A Chaos Bastion is doubling the price of the unit, though. Is that really worth it?

Captyn_Bob wrote:To get the legion bonus the entire detachment has to be the same legion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And defilers can't get the DG trait anyway

ahhh i knew there would be a limitation smewhwere. But if im bringing a heavy support detatchment, so 2x defiler and say some obliterators, i can give them all alpha legion. And can the defiler not get the DG bonus? is it missing a keyword or something?

BillyN831 wrote:Is mass hellbrutes for the cp stratagem to fire twice any good? Thanks.

i was looking at that stratagem, so as you can only use it once per turn, its probably only worth taking 2-3 full shooty helbrutes. as your only going to use it once per turn and can expect to lose a helbrute or two over the course of the battle but i am looking at running quite a few helbrutes and i think 2-3 shooty combined with about the same but with scourge and heavybolters should do it. fist and hammer seem like expensive weapons and its probably better just shooting the targets you'd hammer and fist with your shooty helbrutes. the scourge can then chip off the final wounds.

if you can take one, a sonic dread has the helbrute keyword, and thus can be made to fire twice. which sounds disgustly fun

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Havocs improve noticeably when inserted into a bastion or similar fortification. They far outclass the predator.

A Chaos Bastion is doubling the price of the unit, though. Is that really worth it?

\
For four heavy bolters and a mountain of defense? Totally. Havocs become immune to takedown and the two combined become an immobile super heavy tank.

Solar Shock wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:To get the legion bonus the entire detachment has to be the same legion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And defilers can't get the DG trait anyway

ahhh i knew there would be a limitation smewhwere. But if im bringing a heavy support detatchment, so 2x defiler and say some obliterators, i can give them all alpha legion. And can the defiler not get the DG bonus? is it missing a keyword or something?

Defiler is a Daemon Engine not a helbrute, so no legion bonuses apply. And Death Guard don't have the Daemon Forge stratagem, so better off as another legion, unless you're getting synergy with Nurgle Deamons.

HQ:

Daemon Prince: Good, not super durable though. Must be thoughtful.
Sorc: Great - Warp Time is awesome. Prescience is awesome. Smite is awesome.
Dark Apostle: Eh, I honestly don't think cultists are really worth buffing. Pretty great for Berzerkers, especially since misses can generate exploding 6's on the reroll.
Exalted Champion: I think the aura is really good, but I don't think the character is very good due to the lack of an invuln save. I think he should be 1 PL cheaper (I play PL more than I do points).

Troops:

Cultists: Dunno, they die really easily. Good for filling out detachments, and the recycling stratagem is good, but every list I've fought so far has just slaughtered them. Obviously. That's why the exist. But in terms of holding objectives, they can do it only if nothing is trying to take it from them. Autoguns over pistols/CCW. Morale tests on big units just finish the units off. I think MSU is the way I'd prefer, since it's no more expensive than a bigger unit but requires more thoughtful application of firepower from the opponent.
CSM: Meh. Not impressive. Plasma guns have been useful.
Berzerkers: Awesome, but die pretty easily.

Heldrakes: Turn 1 charges are cool to tie stuff up, but they don't do much damage and don't have enough attacks to justify popping daemonforge. I've been taking 2 in my list, will probably cut it back to 1.

Heavy Support:

Maulerfiend: Good with daemonforge active, terrible without it. Not super hard to kill, but clutch daemon saves often stave off death for an extra turn. A good candidate for Warp Time, in my experience. I'm gonna try running Blood Slaughterers instead, I think I'd like them more. 2 less strength but WS3+.

Transports:

Rhinos: Super legit. Popping smoke has saved them multiple times. Transport of choice for my berzerkers.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Havocs improve noticeably when inserted into a bastion or similar fortification. They far outclass the predator.

A Chaos Bastion is doubling the price of the unit, though. Is that really worth it?

\
For four heavy bolters and a mountain of defense? Totally. Havocs become immune to takedown and the two combined become an immobile super heavy tank.

Well, its still just for 4 heavy support weapons. Is it really efficient to pay 200 plus, close to 300 points for 4 heavy bolters shooting? I mean, unless the rest of your army has no other heavy support shooting, I would just ignore your bastion and kill off other stuff first. 4 heavy bolters are painful, but hardly OP. Your other shooting won't be so well protected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Solar Shock wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:To get the legion bonus the entire detachment has to be the same legion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And defilers can't get the DG trait anyway

ahhh i knew there would be a limitation smewhwere. But if im bringing a heavy support detatchment, so 2x defiler and say some obliterators, i can give them all alpha legion. And can the defiler not get the DG bonus? is it missing a keyword or something?

Defiler is a Daemon Engine not a helbrute, so no legion bonuses apply. And Death Guard don't have the Daemon Forge stratagem, so better off as another legion, unless you're getting synergy with Nurgle Deamons.

Best use of Daemon forge strategem I have observed, is on a Khorne Lord of Skulls. That thing has a hades gratling gun for 12 shots, and can take an Ichor cannon for another d6, range 48 inch shots. So, when you use daemonforge on the lord of skulls (which is certainly a daemon engine), you are rerolling to hit and to wound for 12 str 8 shots and another d6 str 7 shots. Very deadly. It has a BS of 3+ too, so rerolling to hit means a really high percentage of its shots will hit.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Havocs improve noticeably when inserted into a bastion or similar fortification. They far outclass the predator.

A Chaos Bastion is doubling the price of the unit, though. Is that really worth it?

\
For four heavy bolters and a mountain of defense? Totally. Havocs become immune to takedown and the two combined become an immobile super heavy tank.

Well, its still just for 4 heavy support weapons. Is it really efficient to pay 200 plus, close to 300 points for 4 heavy bolters shooting? I mean, unless the rest of your army has no other heavy support shooting, I would just ignore your bastion and kill off other stuff first. 4 heavy bolters are painful, but hardly OP. Your other shooting won't be so well protected.

I think you're forgetting the Havocs themselves. Four lascannons that you can't shoot at and a combi-plasma on the champion (or combi-flamer if he wants to protect from assaulting the building).

That's 8 heavy weapons + a combi weapon that can shoot freely until the bastion is killed. At which point it's still four lascannons that can shoot freely. Or autocannons. Or whatever your preferred long range havoc death launcher happens to be.

The four heavy bolters I mentioned were on the building itself.

 Arkaine wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Havocs improve noticeably when inserted into a bastion or similar fortification. They far outclass the predator.

A Chaos Bastion is doubling the price of the unit, though. Is that really worth it?

\
For four heavy bolters and a mountain of defense? Totally. Havocs become immune to takedown and the two combined become an immobile super heavy tank.

Well, its still just for 4 heavy support weapons. Is it really efficient to pay 200 plus, close to 300 points for 4 heavy bolters shooting? I mean, unless the rest of your army has no other heavy support shooting, I would just ignore your bastion and kill off other stuff first. 4 heavy bolters are painful, but hardly OP. Your other shooting won't be so well protected.

I think you're forgetting the Havocs themselves. Four lascannons that you can't shoot at and a combi-plasma on the champion (or combi-flamer if he wants to protect from assaulting the building).

That's 8 heavy weapons + a combi weapon that can shoot freely until the bastion is killed. At which point it's still four lascannons that can shoot freely. Or autocannons. Or whatever your preferred long range havoc death launcher happens to be.

The four heavy bolters I mentioned were on the building itself.

Not convinced the Bastion brings Havocs to the point where they outclass a Laspred.

The cost for the Bastion + Havocs works out 405 points with a min sized squad armed with Lascannons. The Bastion itself has 20 wounds, it's T 10 and a 4+ save. You get an extra 5 wounds for the Havocs.

The cost of 2 Predators with 8 Lascannons works out to be 432 points. The Predators have a total of 22 wounds, T 7 and a 3+ save.

So it's 20 points more for -3 wounds, a better save, and +4 Lascannons with the Predators. Even if you lose a Predator, the remaining one still has as many Lascannons as the Bastion.

Sure, the Bastion is harder to wound with S5 weapons. But is it really outclassing the Predators when it has half the Lascannons? The Bastion is immobile, it's going to need range to be an offensive threat. There are also some stratagems that make it easier to take out fortifications, whereas vehicles generally take the same amount of damage no matter who is doing the shooting.

Help me understand what I am missing.

EDIT: Forgot the wounds on the Havocs.

The Bastion has T10. That isn't just hard to wound on S5 but also S4, so the most common heavy bolters and under weapons are failing to wound. But what else? Overcharged plasma, Autocannons, Missile Launchers, Lascannons, every single anti-armor marine weapon is rendered less effective.

The Bastion also doesn't lose shots until it falls, the Havocs don't lose shots until a few wounds after that. Yet the Predators lose shots as soon as one falls. And how much easier is it to kill a Predator anyhow? All the Strength 8-9 anti-tank weapons hit on 3s, wound on 3s against Predator BUT only hit on 3s and wound on 5s against a Chaos Bastion.

Meaning against anti-tank, the perfect building annihilator, Predators have 22 wounds but about a 44% chance to take wounds, with the armor save mattering little to not at all against this level of AP. Yet the Bastion only has a 22% chance of taking wounds from the same weapons. The Predator may have around the same wound total as the Bastion + havoc team but it takes wounds at twice the rate.

Against non-anti-tank weapons like the S4 and S5 bolter spam the Predator is getting wounded on 5s while the Bastion gets wounded on 6s. Again, half as many wounds are getting through to the Bastion as the Predator. The save might matter a little more in this case but still not enough to offset the massive difference in wound totals.

So you're looking at, over the course of the game, two vehicles that fire 8 lascannons but lose half their shots as soon as 11 wounds are lost at a 44% chance to get wounded versus anti-tank.
Versus a single building that fires 4 heavy bolters, 4 lascannons, and potentially an Icarus Lascannon, Quad-gun, or Combi-plasma and gets wounded 22% of the time against the same weapons.

The Predators will have more early burst and evaporate to any sustained fire (including possibly losing them turn 1 before they do anything) but only half the durability.
The Bastion doesn't have quite half the firepower due to a bunch of other guns on it but definitely has twice the durability, which will see the lascannons continuing to fire for several turns.

I would say that if that one squad of lascannon havocs was your only and main heavy support in your whole army, then it might be worth it. Because they won't have any other alternative target. But if you are running more than one heavy support choice, if you are also running laspredator tank, or defiler, or Mortarion, or obliterators also, or any other target which would be a good alternative target for heavy weapons to aim at, then the opponent can simply choose to leave that bastion for last.

On the subject of Havocs vs Preds, worth noting that Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and to a degree Iron Warriors have slightly better Havocs due to taking fewer wounds, having fewer run away, and ignoring cover. Though AL's the only really significant one IMO.

Been running noise marines since the book dropped. Here is how I kit them out.

10x Noise Marines
2x blast master
5x Sonic Blaster
Champion with Sonic Blaster and Chain Ax
215

This gives me two disposable bodies, especially for morale tests since that doesnt trigger shooting. Chain Axe is because I like rounding to 5 haha, first thing to go.

People compare Blastmasters negatively to missile launchers yet I would argue that they are far superior(outside of the flakk missile strategem).

Assault d6 str 4 -1 is flat out superior to the frag grenade version(especially with ignore cover).

Main shot has same strength and AP(although blast master ignores cover so better)

Average 2 shots versus 1. Average 2 damage versus 3.5 per shot. So the blast masters with 2 shots will average .5 more wounds than a missile launcher. Add in that they have the same maximum number of wounds while blast masters will min at 2 wounds. Blast masters are better against 1 wound, equal against two/three wounds(however they have the possibility of killing two versus none).

Blast Masters lend themselves more towards steady sustained damage against large targets and the extra shots are significant against smaller targets over a missile launcher. Add in the option for double tapping a unit and you are in a solid place.

Currently I run two 10 man units in every list as the foundation. I want to run 1 of 20, however the blast master limit makes it hard to do haha.

 Leth wrote:
Been running noise marines since the book dropped. Here is how I kit them out.

10x Noise Marines
2x blast master
5x Sonic Blaster
Champion with Sonic Blaster and Chain Ax
215

This gives me two disposable bodies, especially for morale tests since that doesnt trigger shooting. Chain Axe is because I like rounding to 5 haha, first thing to go.

People compare Blastmasters negatively to missile launchers yet I would argue that they are far superior(outside of the flakk missile strategem).

Assault d6 str 4 -1 is flat out superior to the frag grenade version(especially with ignore cover).

Main shot has same strength and AP(although blast master ignores cover so better)

Average 2 shots versus 1. Average 2 damage versus 3.5 per shot. So the blast masters with 2 shots will average .5 more wounds than a missile launcher. Add in that they have the same maximum number of wounds while blast masters will min at 2 wounds. Blast masters are better against 1 wound, equal against two/three wounds(however they have the possibility of killing two versus none).

Blast Masters lend themselves more towards steady sustained damage against large targets and the extra shots are significant against smaller targets over a missile launcher. Add in the option for double tapping a unit and you are in a solid place.

Currently I run two 10 man units in every list as the foundation. I want to run 1 of 20, however the blast master limit makes it hard to do haha.

Thanks for the write up. How are you finding them against certain kinds of enemy? Do you find them effective? People seem to think them on the slightly weaker side in this thread. Do you find you'd rather 3x Obliterators, some plasma'd up Havocs/Chosen, or a Forgefiend?

What the general consensus on Troop choices? I know Cultists are usually the go-to because of their cheapness but beyond that I don't quite see the value aside from that? They die to a stiff breeze and will lose even more to morale. They might have a bit more staying power as AL but beyond camping on a home objective and hope the opponent doesn't look their way, I'm not sure how they're supposed to be used, it doesn't help that I'm not a huge fan of their models anyway. Chaos Marines are a bit more durable and can at least take a heavy weapon so they're not completely useless while sitting on an objective, but the points do add up especially when trying to fill in a 1500 pt Battalion I'm trying to load up with Terminators and Obliterators and the like. Ideally I'd prefer not to bring Troops because Chaos has so many better units worth the points but ObSec and the CP from Battalions are hard to ignore. Can anyone chime in on Cultists vs Chaos Marines?

 TonyH122 wrote:


Thanks for the write up. How are you finding them against certain kinds of enemy? Do you find them effective? People seem to think them on the slightly weaker side in this thread. Do you find you'd rather 3x Obliterators, some plasma'd up Havocs/Chosen, or a Forgefiend?

They are the TAC/horde unit in my army. They are not as specialized against any particular unit but they can reliably clear out a bunch of models. They are mobile without losing too much effectiveness(even if they advance) etc. They have a LOT of versatility and uses. Honestly for the points I cant find anything that does everything they can do for less.

Also, especially against plasma drop type armies they are great because when one unit shoots, I kill off some dudes, then shoot those dudes at a unit that has not shot yet.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
What the general consensus on Troop choices? I know Cultists are usually the go-to because of their cheapness but beyond that I don't quite see the value aside from that? They die to a stiff breeze and will lose even more to morale. They might have a bit more staying power as AL but beyond camping on a home objective and hope the opponent doesn't look their way, I'm not sure how they're supposed to be used, it doesn't help that I'm not a huge fan of their models anyway. Chaos Marines are a bit more durable and can at least take a heavy weapon so they're not completely useless while sitting on an objective, but the points do add up especially when trying to fill in a 1500 pt Battalion I'm trying to load up with Terminators and Obliterators and the like. Ideally I'd prefer not to bring Troops because Chaos has so many better units worth the points but ObSec and the CP from Battalions are hard to ignore. Can anyone chime in on Cultists vs Chaos Marines?

Im using 6 units of Chaos Marines, in cover, with Lascannons. I run an entire Brigade. This severely limits me in how I can build the force, but it has proven to be a very adaptable force and has a very good record. It has however lost to Magnus and the gang as of yesterday and it did take a thumping from the Tau Empire once.

The Chaos Marines seem to produce really well and they are doughty in cover, very doughty.

The ability to pick up and place Cultists is extremely strong though. I have to say, that ability is a game winner if your opponent doesn't know to expect it or he kind of spaces it when its time to place objectives. Deciding when to do it is a thing, but that Strategem is really good regardless and it's probably always worth having a unit of cultists in the mix.

I'm looking at getting a bunch of Noise Marines ready for combat. I've already got a score of Berzerkers, with a few spare plasma pistoliers, so they can be twenty in a Spartan or two tens in Rhinos, and I'm thinking about a similar quota for the other cult units (Lorgarian polytheists here).

It's going to be a display unit, so I want to plan it all out properly. So... at the minimum, I want two Blastmasters and a Champion. They'll usually be riding in a Kharybdis, with DA & EC.

Should probably make space for a Lord and Sorcerer, for 35/36 accuracy? Or perhaps they should be wearing Jump Packs to make room for more gunners, and be able to respond to threats & opportunities? Already have a JP Slaaneshi Sorcerer, and an idea for a Lord.

Should I aim to give the squad Delightful Agonies, or should I embrace the Music of the Apocalypse and cast the endurance spell on some Possessed? FNP on 2W models is a solid foil to their counters - autocannons and overcharged plasma lose almost 40% of their effectiveness, whilst getting more shots off during the enemy's turn is Changeling tier trolling. Hmm. I guess the Sorcerer should be Warptiming the Kharybdis into a mass of corpse-lovers and leaving DA to others.

Okay... so, if they're not sharing a transport with two others, and have three specialists, that's 17 Sonic Blasters. (No point in ablative bodies - I almost always play Power Levels, so I'm going to be paying for the full Monty.) Now, in smaller games, I guess I'll often be taking ten in a Rhino... that raises the possibility of another ten in a Rhino, who'd want another couple of Blastmasters and a Siren?

For the effort involved, it seems marginal - if I can afford to field twenty Noise Marines, they'll go in a Kharybdis or go home. I'll probably still do it for display, but they're not going to be high priority.

Certainly not going to be done before ten Flamer Rubricae in a Rhino for the last word in horde deterrence, ten gunner Rubricae for parking in a ruin, ten melee Plague Marines in a Rhino, and ten gunner PMs for firefights. That's eighty monolatrists - I'm going to be busy a while!

Just use Cultists. Regular Chaos Marines are a garbage source of special weapons compared to Havocs and Chosen, and Cultists camp superbly better and still got that fun recycle Strategem, as often as it doesn't pop up.

I am not finding the CP from a Brigade to be worth the restrictions:
- Heralds and Nurglings are excellent; taking either will kill Legion trait
- Only five HQ slots? For fifteen units minimum, more when you add Rhinos & Flyers & LoWs? In an army that loves aura buffs? I'm always packing my gunline CL, and my flying DP & Steed Sorcerer. If I take zerks with a DA & EC, that's my quota filled. We have good spells and I want to try to cast more than three a turn, and probably take Warptime twice to keep them guessing.
- taking CSM soup kills Legion traits. DG have some sweet Daemon units that can kill stuff for Epidemius, and most of us have one or two of them already.
- having to take three each of Elite, FA, HS. When I tried to stamp a square Brigade down a 120pow round hole, I'd have to cut ablative bodies here and there. I'd have buckets of CP but no Cultist squads worth spending them on to recycle & outflank, I'd have emaciated Havocs who'd lose a heavy weapon to derisory small arms fire, I'd have naff all Transports, I'd drop Terminators for Helbrutes, I'd have no Reinforcement Points to reinforce my line where it's needed.

I am finding it more effective to take two Battalions, one with plenty of Cultists, one with a Plaguebearer unit & two Nurgling units & two Heralds, one of them being Epidemius or Karanak. Then, usually a Spearhead of Havocs and Oblits, and usually two of a Vanguard or Outriders or a Supreme Command (Berzerker party van).

yeah, I think its better to run a battalion to get those 6 troops and then just add on a spearhead or some other detachment so that you have more flexibility in how you design your list. Rather than force it into a brigade.