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Eldenfirefly wrote:
yeah, I think its better to run a battalion to get those 6 troops and then just add on a spearhead or some other detachment so that you have more flexibility in how you design your list. Rather than force it into a brigade.

That said, if you're already taking 6 troops...why not try to go for the Brigade?
I'm good with just 4 Cultist squads to be honest. Maybe even just three. For extra CP, Arkos is always available to us Alpha Legion players.

Because brigade has even more restrictions to your list building I believe. You have to take a minimum 3 choices of fast attack, elite and even heavy support as well. I feel that to squeeze 6 troop choices into an army list is already a chunk of points (unless you just take 6 cultist units). To then further restrict yourself in terms of taking a minimum of 3 elites, fast attack and heavy support is further restricting your list building options.

Let's say you are going heavy support focus, along with those 6 to 9 troop choices you want. So, take a batallion to get your 6 troops, and then take spearheard. Then you can take up the heavy support you want to focus on, and spearhead lets you add another 3 more troop choices as well.

Now you have an army which is focused on troops and heavy support. And you can skip the elite and FA which you don't need. Whereas if you took brigade, you are forced to find the points to take 3 more elites and 3 more FA.

The FA isn't hard to handle to be fair. Spawn are 90 total for all three slots covered.

Its still a 90 points tax if you weren't planning to take any in the first place. I tried to make a brigade in my army list before. At 2000 points, I just found it so restrictive I dropped the idea. It only works if the list just happens to already have 3 FA, 3 elites and 3 heavy support choices as well.

If I run 18 Khorne Berserkers with dark apostle and exalted champion in rhinos do I stand a chance against an all Chaos Space Marine bike list? Thanks.

BillyN831 wrote:
If I run 18 Khorne Berserkers with dark apostle and exalted champion in rhinos do I stand a chance against an all Chaos Space Marine bike list? Thanks.

The Rhinos will be super key here. If they don't live, the Berserker Marines will be charged and shot and likely die. You're gonna need to screen them.

 TonyH122 wrote:
Do you find you'd rather 3x Obliterators, some plasma'd up Havocs/Chosen, or a Forgefiend?

The main difference between these units is their offense / defense ratio.

Havocs have a strong offense and weak defense.

Obliterators have a very strong offense and medium defense.

Predators have a medium offense and strong defense.

Forgefiends have a very weak offense and very strong defense (but with the Daemonforge Stratagem they have a very strong offense)

TLDR : I think Obliterators are the "must-go" unit in 8th, due to their Deepstrike ability and synergy with Veterans of the Long War and Endless Cacophony. If you can spare some CP though, the Forgefiend is great. Predators are good in pairs since their are self-reliable.

I find that Obliterators have great defense in the sense that you can hold them in reserve and then deep strike them in. This assures that they at least get to fire once. And then if they survive the return fire, they can fire again.

Any other heavy support choice listed above, whether havocs, predators or forgefiends can get shot off the table before they even get off their first shot in.

So, lets say you are facing a super shooty list. You can't always gaurantee you will go first. But obliterators at least saves your heavy support from that heavy first strike so that you can at least shoot back.

 Nym wrote:

 TonyH122 wrote:
Do you find you'd rather 3x Obliterators, some plasma'd up Havocs/Chosen, or a Forgefiend?

The main difference between these units is their offense / defense ratio.

Havocs have a strong offense and weak defense.

Obliterators have a very strong offense and medium defense.

Predators have a medium offense and strong defense.

Forgefiends have a very weak offense and very strong defense (but with the Daemonforge Stratagem they have a very strong offense)

TLDR : I think Obliterators are the "must-go" unit in 8th, due to their Deepstrike ability and synergy with Veterans of the Long War and Endless Cacophony. If you can spare some CP though, the Forgefiend is great. Predators are good in pairs since their are self-reliable.

This is a really good way of looking at things IMO. Point of order; Predators carry as many guns as Havocs and can pack a Havoc rack - why are they ranked lower in offense? Lack of EC/VOTLW? If those are going to be used for Oblits (or Noise Marines), how does Predator-Havoc look then? I have to say, the lower PL and armoured threat saturation when taking loads of Rhinos has me tempted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you're hoping for Killshot, a Spearhead of Predators usually won't care about Legion traits, so it's also a useful soup Detachment that odd Daemon units can go in as well. (Until they get amazing traits, of course)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean you probably really wanna keep VOTLW & EC for your Noise Marines...

 lindsay40k wrote:
Point of order; Predators carry as many guns as Havocs and can pack a Havoc rack - why are they ranked lower in offense?

I based this quick and half-assed rating on wounds per point efficiency, not global damage output / resilience. 5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons cost 165 and a Predator with 4 Lascannons 190. It means that Havocs deal more wounds per point than the Predator.

As for Stratagems, not everyone plays Noise Marines and if you really need to kill 2 Rhinos in a turn, it's better to use your stratagems on Obliterators.

Ah right. See, I play power levels, and I am extremely averse to fielding minimum size Havocs - so I'm comparing an Annihilator with a Havoc rack to ten Havocs.

(Why did they have to give us a weapon and a unit with the same name? It's as if Tyranids got a beast called a Fleshborer.)

Also I think the two units' mobility is a factor - on a large table, Predators can be deployed out of range/LOS then zoom forwards to take their shots. Havocs are a lot more stationary (though in a Ruin, they're pretty tough to dislodge).

All things considered, I think they're pretty well balanced, and it's really down to army synergy, Legion traits, and personal preference.

I have a question for you all, what about Vindicators? Sure its half the range for a S10 D3 or D6 when shoot and 5 or more models that can do D6 damage, not to mention they have a rather interesting Strategem in doing 3D3 mortal wounds. That is definitely something that can be useful against characters.

Blueguy203 wrote:
I have a question for you all, what about Vindicators? Sure its half the range for a S10 D3 or D6 when shoot and 5 or more models that can do D6 damage, not to mention they have a rather interesting Strategem in doing 3D3 mortal wounds. That is definitely something that can be useful against characters.

Eh... It works, half the time. And what are you using it on that's really worth shooting with it? I can't think of anything really that has both 5 or more models AND more than 2 wounds. (Plague Drones CAN be run in a squad of 6, but I MSU mine.)

Three vindicators that start the game out of range, and lose their linebreaker if just one of them is killed or damaged enough to be kept out of range, is an awfully risky and expensive solution to a problem that can probably be avoided. Plus you're only going to actually hit 1/3 of the characters. If the game's big enough to field the three of them without compromising on long ranged firepower, then your opponent will certainly have the means to counter them.

What the Stratagem does is scare units from bunching up tight, and force your opponent to kill a Vindicator on turn one when they ought to be stopping a rhino rush.

Speaking of Vindicators, what are peoples thoughts on FW Laser Destroyer Vindicators? I'm surprised I don't hear much discussion about them, even though theyre slightly cheaper than predator annihilators, tougher, and mount more reliable/versatile lascannons (4x 3 damage shots, or 2x 6 damage stronger shots for big nasties)
I've run mine in a few games, and it's been fantastic. Not having to rely on swingy D6 damage is awesome for reliably cracking vehicles. Of all the forgeworld vehicles, theyre also one of the easier to convert/kitbash.

Well, FW forgot to include them in our Index, and not content with having us buy two books to get Renegades with our Astartes and Knights, they've resolved the issue not by just releasing the rules as a free errata but by telling us to buy a third book, this one being for our defining antagonist.

In terms of what it does, it's a Predator Annihilator with worse range that loses half its shots when it moves. It's got heal-from-eating-people but no Infernal Hunger, not that either of them are useful on a ranged unit, not that it's got a particularly useful range for a unit that loses about 2/3 of its effectiveness whilst relocating.

Fixed damage is not at all bad when it's at levels that guarantee dropping targets down a damage band or killing them off, and Overcharge Fire is interesting, but unless you're firing on T5 or 9/10 then 2xS10 AP5 D6 doesn't perform as well as 4xLascannons. If the target has an invulnerable save then the AP difference is moot and the gap is much wider.

Oh, and you can't heal it with a Warpsmith. You can give it a HK Missile, but that's only because of the lackadaisical patch.

It's 7 points cheaper than a Predator Annihilator that's got 12" more range, can be repaired, and can fire a Killshot. Unless you're playing Power Levels, in which case it's actually 1pow more expensive.

I'd like to like it, but it's looking like a 5ed Carnifex. More power to you for getting it to work (what's your approach to AV gunlines with 48" heavy weapons?), if I had one then I'd use it in friendly games alongside something that's undercosted for what it does.

I totally agree about the hamhanded "patch" with it's rules. Another bruise in the shoddy FW indexes.
I guess I've gotten mine to to work because it fills a ranged AV role in my otherwise assault-heavy army. The range hasn't been much of an issue, as I'm deploying forward behind my assault lines rather than strictly backfield. It's not getting charged, because its surrounded in choppy units, and it avoids a lot of fire because there's onther faster threats moving towards the enemy (maulers, dreads, rhinos full of zerkers). At the extreme, it will have to move up once to engage units at the far edge of the board, but that's been an edgecase and there are ways to mitigate the loss of shots. Those 2x 6 damage shots can still obliterate most vehicle chassis if they hit, and throwing a CP for negating the movement penalty can be worthwhile with a command reroll or nearby lord/prince for more accuracy/wounding. If the vehicle doesnt have an invul save, it's just eats 12 wounds and dies, even if its in cover.
The T8 I feel makes up for its comparable shortcomings. 36" range is fine most of the time, but being more survivable against many AT threats make it nice as a plug-in tankhunter and good alternative to anhilators (which I find kind of boring for some reason. At least the vindicator can hilariously melt itself into a molten puddle on the ground).

I'm not ever going to take 3 las predators, so the killshot is irrelevant to me, and if Im talking a warpsmith, he's fixing up assault walkers (though that hellforged errata is stupid as balls).

Wait, did I miss something? Since when can the hellforged units be healed?

 mrhappyface wrote:
Wait, did I miss something? Since when can the hellforged units be healed?

They can heal by eating people. But they faqd it so they can't heal by other methods

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Wait, did I miss something? Since when can the hellforged units be healed?

They can heal by eating people. But they faqd it so they can't heal by other methods

Aye, that's what I thought. The way people were talking it seemed as if they could be healed by other methods now.

Has anyone had any experience with fully mechanised lists? Are they viable?



-Triple preds for killshotting + lord for rerolls (3x twin lascannons deal around average 18 wounds against T8 3+ when using Killshot)
-Three rhinos keep the bezerkers safe, potential turn 2 charges (couldnt afford icons)
-Daemon prince and heldrakes try and get turn 1 charges and cause disruption.
-Effective target saturation of only high T, high wound models (Complete opposite to my orks )
-10 deployment drops

I take it the Rhinos are Advancing and popping smoke on the first turn to maximise chances of charges working? If so, why not trade in their Havoc Missiles for those Icons of Wrath? If the DP's role is to get turn one charges, you could then replace him with another Heldrake who'll be more likely to succeed, and bring an extra CP?

Edit: fully mech is probably more viable than Somme reenactment societies, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to leave the Cultists at home anytime soon

wow guys chaos is popular! just won a tourney out of the 40 people i'd go with half being chaos!

Alright chaps, any tips for running world eaters in 8th?

@Lindsay - Yeah good shout with the havocs / icons. I was trying to maximise firepower on the rhinos to make tyhem useful mid/late game, but i think i might do that instead.

I originally had put in three heldrakes, but I already have a winged DP model so that was the only reason i swapped it. By swapping it i'd lose the necessary HQ so I wouldnt get the extra CP anyway.

I agree with the point about cultists too, they are very useful for securing objectives and denying deep strike

@Vomikron - I think the consensus is that World Eaters Bezerkers will struggle to not get shot off the board (unless maybe you run like 100 of them!), hence why I'm looking to a fully mechanised list.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Alright chaps, any tips for running world eaters in 8th?

Don't run pure WE, have a secondary detachment so you can take some shooting elements, sorcerers and cultists to get more CP. WE work best with the right support units.

Levski wrote:
@Lindsay - Yeah good shout with the havocs / icons. I was trying to maximise firepower on the rhinos to make tyhem useful mid/late game, but i think i might do that instead.

I originally had put in three heldrakes, but I already have a winged DP model so that was the only reason i swapped it. By swapping it i'd lose the necessary HQ so I wouldnt get the extra CP anyway.

I think we might have a misunderstanding here, to clear up any miscommunication this is what I'm suggesting:

Spearhead: 1CP
Lord
Predator
Predator
Predator

Battalion: 3CP
DA
EC
Zerks
Zerks
Zerks
Rhino
Rhino
Rhino

Air Wing: 1CP
Heldrake
Heldrake
Heldrake

I would actually be totally down to field something like this myself, if the game were large enough to accommodate a Battalion of Cultists to stop the Predators getting popped by Scions et al. I suspect that will be the main weakness of pure mech. I do like the simplicity. I'd put the Lord on a Bike, simply as that's how I envisage the officer of a tank squadron, but JP is better due to DS capability & Fly. Wish we had a Tank Commander Warpsmith option.

My mistake, I thought Heldrakes were fast attack thanks for clarifying

Just went through the list and if you strip out all the havoc launchers, extra combi bolters and probably 1 bezerker, then you can squeeze 30 cultists in...but that may not be enough still.

You could probably get away with dropping a heldrake then that would be another 45 cultists,but then the nice list symmetry 3 / 3 / 3 is destroyed (because that's very important )

There's always the option to switch a Heldrake with a Hell Blade. It'll save dropping a Berzerker for the meat shield, and if you come up against an opposing Air Wing it'll stop DftS dogfights from being a one-sided pigeon shoot. Pretty good capability at pouncing on backfield indirect fire units and characters, too.

So I have read this entire thread from page one now and have some questions in regards to world eaters myself. I'm normally a single legion army personally, not wanting to run multiple detachments of different legions so no sorcerers for me. Also no Forge world. I don't have a problem with Forge world personally but I don't want to run it myself.

Kharn the betrayer seems to work best as a supportive unit for long range, like defilers or predators. Is this the general consensus, run him for his aura giving shooting units a nice boost and using his powerful cc stats as a counter offensive to make my opponent think twice about charging my fire line, but keep him away from your actual beserkers. Fair assessment?

Most people say run beserkers in rhinos and not floot slog them, but I have 60 beserkers and 1 rhino lol. I'm thinking of getting 5 more rhinos to do a 6 rhino rush, or just running them as 3 large blobs and run. If I do the running beserkers I would run renegades legion tactics and get access to sorcerer, but lose kharn and the nice +1 attack on charge for advance and charge, is this probably the best way to go? (Oh and I would have to run elite detachments because I now have no troops). Which is the better way to go do you guys think? I think they both have merits.

Helldrakes : I love the model but it seems to do best as a distraction carnifex at this point unless my opponent runs aircraft themselves, in which case it's fly straight at it and charge. Fair assessment? Have you guys had any luck using them a different way?

Finally, Deamon prince. I have been running him with wings, talons, and the collar artifact for my anti psychic use. I think this is a fantastic way to run it, powerful, quick, and supportive. If I do go the renegades way though would it be better to go mark of slaneesh with the elixir? He could still counter psychic powers, still get a ton of attacks at a higher strength, and get access to his own psychic powers, I am thinking the 5+ fnp power would be most useful on himself.

Have I gotten this all correct or did I miss something?