8th ed CHAOS tactica

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**Insectum7**

Boogles wrote:
Has anyone found a use for generic troop marines? I play iron warriors and I keep trying to find a way for them to be useful. I end up using using cultists for troops in a battalion and just take berserkers in elites instead when building a list because it just seems better

I use em, usually 4 squads of 10 with two Lascannons or Missile Launchers each. Just a power armor mob that forms a gun line or advances en-masse. I play Black Legion though, so Abaddons there giving them re-rolls to hit and boosting their lethality (also making them immune to morale). I've started adding Combis to the Sergents, and will probably experiment with P-fists too. Your mileage may vary with Iron Warriors, but I like them as a big, solid core.

**ZergSmasher**

I'm not sure but what taking 10 regular CSM with 2 Meltaguns and a Combimelta in a Rhino could work. Maybe give the other guys chainswords instead of bolters for more attacks if they charge after shooting. I say this because this is what I ran back in 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin sometimes and it's one squad I have modeled. I don't think it's optimal at all though; I think bikes and Raptors are better ideas for Melta delivery since they can use speed and/or "deep strike" (Raptors anyway) to get in range. Back in 7th, Berzerkers sucked balls, so it was better to run regular CSM. Nowadays, quite the opposite.

Believe me, I want regular CSM to be good since I've got two 10-man squads of them, one with Meltas and chainswords, the other with Plasmas and bolters. Right now they are doing shelf duty while the Berzerkers and Noise Marines have their fun.

**Boogles**

ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm not sure but what taking 10 regular CSM with 2 Meltaguns and a Combimelta in a Rhino could work. Maybe give the other guys chainswords instead of bolters for more attacks if they charge after shooting. I say this because this is what I ran back in 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin sometimes and it's one squad I have modeled. I don't think it's optimal at all though; I think bikes and Raptors are better ideas for Melta delivery since they can use speed and/or "deep strike" (Raptors anyway) to get in range. Back in 7th, Berzerkers sucked balls, so it was better to run regular CSM. Nowadays, quite the opposite.

Believe me, I want regular CSM to be good since I've got two 10-man squads of them, one with Meltas and chainswords, the other with Plasmas and bolters. Right now they are doing shelf duty while the Berzerkers and Noise Marines have their fun.

I want regular CSM to be good too, mainly because I have about 80 of them sitting on shelf duty.

**Champion of Slaanesh**

I have 2 units of 10 csm
One with 7 guys with chain swords 2 meltas champion has power axe combi nelta

The other has 2 plasma guns and a combi plasma
Both have a icon of chaos glory.

**Captyn_Bob**

Ok I've assembled 10 world eater warp talons (using parts from useless csms, blood for the blood god)

Any advice for how to use them effectively ?

**lindsay40k**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Ok I've assembled 10 world eater warp talons (using parts from useless csms, blood for the blood god)

Any advice for how to use them effectively ?

Deepstrike near a unit with lethal firepower, Warptime, charge. Double points if you co-ordinate with Berzerkers, to kick their heads in, or Fiends of Slaanesh, to make sure they're not going anywhere.

Ten can destroy a gunner unit on their own, two Squads of five can come in one turn after another to lead two charges or shut down two units.

If the enemy's screen is a picket line, FLY often enables you to jump over it to get at the guys behind it. Don't forget to declare charges on everything within 12" - you're immune to OW, so give yourself plenty of options before you see what the charge distance is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, wait, World Eaters. Hmm.

Either take an allied Legion that can give you Warptime, or drop them in and hope for the best. By all means have a shot at a charge on arrival, but assume it will fail and base their positioning on the assumption they'll not be charging until next turn and eating Overwatch. If you're going Daemonkin, they can hang out with a Herald for +1S. Jugger herald, Flesh Hounds, WT, maybe a Rhino full of Possessed and a DA, not a bad strike force.

**fishwaffle2232**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Ok I've assembled 10 world eater warp talons (using parts from useless csms, blood for the blood god)

Any advice for how to use them effectively ?

Drop them in with a sorcer + jump pack and warptime them close to whatever you are trying to kill and charge without having to worry about overwatch. 10 talons is going to do a lot of damage and with warptime, they should have plenty of opportunity to hit some juicy targets. They fill the role of assassins nicely I think.
Just be careful of deny the witch. If warptime fails your talons need to make a very risky charge roll and if this fails, they will likely get shot to pieces.
I love my talons, havent had much chance to play them much yet though. Let us know how they go.

**lindsay40k**

With regard to CSM Squads, I had good results with them early on. But that was fielding them as a WB horde when people didn't know what they were doing, now I've just built two plasma pistoliers and some more heavy gunners and split them all away into Berzerker, Havoc, and Chosen squads.

Snip off a Bolter magazine and replace it with a Warp Talon vane, replace the barrel with 16mm of tubing, glue on a gargoyle face gun tip from the vehicle sprue, you've got a Sonic Blaster...

**BillyN831**

I{ find Khrone Berserkers and Nose Marines to be superior to Chaos Space Marine troop choices.

**Azuza001**

Not really. I play power level normally and 10 havocs are more effective for the cost than 10 normal.

It's not that they are bad, they just are outshined by virtually every thing else. Havocs cover special weapons or heavy better. Chosen cover close combat better. Cultists cover cheap bubble better.

I suppose if your needing their ops spec ability small squads of 5 would work.

**lindsay40k**

Even if you need obsec or CPs, there's just no contest for me between fifteen CSMs or fifty Cultists :/

Even if you're going to be defending a ruin, ten with two heavy bolters might look alright - after first turn, they've got a 2+ against AP1, right? - but they still want a screen to keep deep insertion melee specialists from walking up and destroying them. obsec means nothing when you're dead.

And if you're going to screen them, it's going to be with cultists, and if you've got a cultist screen around an infantry unit in a ruin that's not going to move, why not just make them Havocs and take twice as many big guns?

Loyalists take Tactical Squads when more Scouts would be excessive and out of lack of better options. CSM Squads are arguably better than Tacs, with their option for two special or heavy, but three times as many Cultists is rarely not better.

**techsoldaten**

Have been swapping 10 man Noise Marine squads for 20 man CSM squads in my lists. There are some differences in playstyle worth discussing.

I am using 20 man CSM squads with bolt guns and 2x Lascannons. Going to compare them with NM squads with 10 men, 8 Sonic Blasters and 2x Blastmasters and a Rhino.

A number of people have cited the idea that NMs / KBs / Cultists / Chosen / Havocs do everything better. My response is kind of, these advantages mean less than you might think.

As far as the shooting advantages NMs get, it's not that significant. A Sonic Blaster is an assault 3 bolt gun. Assuming each squad is at full strength - when the NMs are shooting at 24 inches, they get 24 bolter shots compared to 18 with the CSMs. At 12 inches, they still get 24 shots but the CSMs get 36 with Rapid Fire.

I find what matters is what happens over multiple turns. In practice, few opponents stand around at 24 inches for those Noise Marines to shoot at. They are either advancing to close in for the charge or shooting back to whittle down the squad. Each time you lose a Noise Marine, you are losing 3 shots. Each time you lose a CSM, you are losing 1 shot.

So NMs come on strong but get weaker faster and they are half the size. I hate the feeling this glorious elite unit is about to lose so much of it's potency the turn after it disembarks, which is what happens when I play them. They may have a better position on the board because of the Rhino, but will they be able to hold it?

Compare this with the not-so-humble 20 man CSM squad. Since Rhinos are not an option, they march up the board. Sure, they take some wounds doing this, but they get to fire their Lascannons each turn. An extra 2 Lascannon shots per squad each turn is significant, those multi-damage wounds add up. Sure, they are not firing their bolters, but the NMs are not firing their Sonic Blasters either.

Where a 20 man CSM squad shines is camping objectives, they remain a long range threat while parking themselves just about anywhere on the board. When they have cover / a reroll aura / Prescience / VotLW going for them, removing them from the board becomes very hard. Now think about what happens when there are 3 of those 20 man CSM squads on separate objectives. Sure, it can be done, but it's not trivial.

So, NMs have some other advantages. Sure, they have MotA, they can fight first if they are Emperor's Children, and there's that Slaanesh Strategem for shooting twice. MotA is a boost a NM for the turn before it dies, then the squad is that much weaker. Fighting first is great for squads that are not dedicated shooting specialists, if it comes into play with NMs you are doing it wrong. This would be a great Legion trait for Berzerkers. Shooting twice is great, but you can give CSMs the same stratagem and they would have more shots at 12 inches. So it's not an exclusive advantage.

The game is 5 - 7 turns. If you are playing a game with objectives - where position matters - I see more value in big CSM squads. If you are playing a game where the goal is just to kill as many things as possible on the board - both are good, Emperor's Children NMs might have the edge. The one scenario I have found where Noise Marines are hands-down better is dropping 2 10 man squads with a Kharybdis Assault Claw, they can usually shoot up enough things to mitigate the blow back they take the next turn. Part of this is b/c the KAC is a huge distraction unit, it gets a lot of attention the moment it eats a tank.

For the record, the cost of each CSM squad works out to 312 points / 15 PL. The cost of each NM squad + Rhino works out to 294 points / 15 PL. So they are roughly equivalent. If you think it's easier to compare them without the Rhino at the same points, great, take 13 NMs (15 if you are playing power levels.)

Also for the record, I play Black Legion, and understand this would all be "better" if I was playing Alpha Legion. But Alpha Legion doesn't have Abaddon, and his reroll aura makes CSMs much better than they are otherwise - especially when we are talking about Lascannons. Also, you tend to have some wounds to spare in armies with 60+ CSMs, the +1 save is not as important.

**lindsay40k**

How are you getting four Lascannon shots from a single CSM squad? EC? If I switch out mounted NMs for CSM horde, my EC is getting used on Oblits or Havocs, not two lascannons firing from sea level at -1 to hit. Unless we're in extraordinary circumstances (and if we're talking fringe cases, I'm sure someone will win a game by Advancing NMs into range and letting rip on something that thought 31" was a safe distance).

NMs and CSMs have completely different roles. NMs jumping out of a rhino and popping VOTLW & EC & buffs on turn one will annihilate a screening unit or two. The CSMs blob will do far less and get a Lascannon hit (because they're not getting Strategems). NMs are a fast burn unit, that you get into their generous threat range early on and fire six shots a piece - nine, if you positioned them right so that the enemy can't evacuate their threat radius before returning fire.

Close combat? Bring it on. 2A a piece, and every time someone kills one they get played a riff or fed a Krak grenade. They've done their job already by clearing a path for the Berzerker party vans, if shock troops want to eat all that Overwatch and then get shot even more then that's fine by me.

BL does give CSMs a lot of merit, though - I've had good results from hordes before people adapted their lists to counter banzai charges, but you get to give them fearlessness and full re-rolls and take some shots whilst Advancing. I can definitely see Somme reenactment working for you, especially if three units each get a different mark and endurance spell. Plus LGBT enables Abaddon to leave a unit unsupervised and still get their rerolls. But I'd probably still want to bring along NMs. Kerrrang!

**Leth**

One thing I have learned a lot recently is that against most armies you either need to have any elite unit in DS reserve or in transports. Anything else will just die to quickly.

Think about it this way. For most of our units their damage output is actually better than their points would justify. The key is that they are typically fragile and only do damage in specific situations. Khorne Berzerkers are a solid example. They are absolute BLENDERS, however they are worse than cultists outside of that for their points.

Every single game I lose so many models to shooting before they even get to do anything that I might as well have just bought 3-4 times as many cultists.

So many games are down to "Did I go first or not" because its all in on damage rather than building in survivability

So now lets look at adding a Rhino - You are spending 7.4 points per T7 3+ wound. That alone is pretty crazy and you would gak a brick if you could buy a 1 wound model with those stats for that number of points.

Now lets also look at she who shall not be named (mortal wounds). Smite doesnt give two morks what you are paying for, it just takes off wounds. Once again this is where the rhino shines. The smites that could easily kill a 10 wound 300 point unit could instead put all of those points into a 74 point unit.

So on and so forth.

TLDR: Put your expensive gak in Rhinos or Deep Strike Reserve.

**DCannon4Life**

I absolutely agree about putting your stuff in armor, or in Reserves. I run a 2-Rhino, 1 Land Raider list that has 3x5 CSM, 1x5 Plasma Havocs, 7 Berserkers, an Exalted Champion and (if I need to get down to 6 drops) a Sorcerer with a Jump Pack. I'm running a few other things with this, but this is the 'mounted' portion of the list.

**techsoldaten**

lindsay40k wrote:
How are you getting four Lascannon shots from a single CSM squad? EC? If I switch out mounted NMs for CSM horde, my EC is getting used on Oblits or Havocs, not two lascannons firing from sea level at -1 to hit. Unless we're in extraordinary circumstances (and if we're talking fringe cases, I'm sure someone will win a game by Advancing NMs into range and letting rip on something that thought 31" was a safe distance).

That was a typo. You are right, it's 2 shots per lascannon. I have been taking 3 20 man squads my last 3 games, which was 6 lascannon shots each turn.

Unlike with my Laspreds / Obliterators / Helbrutes, these lascannons survived the entire game, meaning a total of 30+ Lascannnon shots (as long as the CSM squads did not get charged.)

For the record, using EC on a 20 man CSM squad within 12 inches would result in more shots than NMs are capable of. It's only at the 12 - 24 distance that it makes a difference. As far as Havocs go, this was meant to be a comparison with Noise Marines. Havocs have their own issues.

lindsay40k wrote:
NMs and CSMs have completely different roles. NMs jumping out of a rhino and popping VOTLW & EC & buffs on turn one will annihilate a screening unit or two. The CSMs blob will do far less and get a Lascannon hit (because they're not getting Strategems). NMs are a fast burn unit, that you get into their generous threat range early on and fire six shots a piece - nine, if you positioned them right so that the enemy can't evacuate their threat radius before returning fire.

Not sure I agree with the idea they fill different roles.

First off, why would NMs jump out of a Rhino on turn one? They can only disembark before the Rhino moves. If they are going to do this, why take a Rhino? That would be an expensive shield. Second, what Stratagems do Noise Marines get that do not also apply to CSM squads? If anything, I think CSMs get access to more stratagems that provide better benefits.

In most games, I did not have the NMs disembark before turn 2 unless the Rhino was destroyed. In many games, they were still in the Rhino turn 3 because of the rules about disembarking - there was nothing worth shooting in 30 inches before the Rhino moved.

You are right about Noise Marines being a fast burn. I had been finding opponents learn how to prevent them from taking advantage of it using the tactics you mention - keeping it so they only face the chaff for a turn. It's the things at 31+ inches that I usually really want to get to with them.

lindsay40k wrote:
Close combat? Bring it on. 2A a piece, and every time someone kills one they get played a riff or fed a Krak grenade. They've done their job already by clearing a path for the Berzerker party vans, if shock troops want to eat all that Overwatch and then get shot even more then that's fine by me.

I forgot Noise Marines are 2 attacks a piece. Not sure who wants to charge squads with guns that fire 3 shots per model in overwatch. My experience has been that opponents treat them as bullet magnets and don't assault.

If you are able to field effective lists that feature Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers in the same list, would love to see it. My lists tend to feature larger infantry units, expensive HQs and heavy weapons. Maybe that's why NMs and KBs don't seem to fill the same roles.

lindsay40k wrote:

BL does give CSMs a lot of merit, though - I've had good results from hordes before people adapted their lists to counter banzai charges, but you get to give them fearlessness and full re-rolls and take some shots whilst Advancing. I can definitely see Somme reenactment working for you, especially if three units each get a different mark and endurance spell. Plus LGBT enables Abaddon to leave a unit unsupervised and still get their rerolls. But I'd probably still want to bring along NMs. Kerrrang!

Reenactment and LGBT? Autocorrect appears to be confusing things.

Understand I am not saying Noise Marines are vastly inferior and it's fine if that's your playstyle. There are some virtues to playing plain CSMs and the perceived advantages of elite units don't always bear out in practice, whereas surrounding 2 Lascannons with 18 ablative wounds works very often. Context makes a huge difference in how they will work in a particular army.

From what I gather, you are playing MSU Noise Marines, which is great, but gets into this whole other issue around maximizing the effectiveness of auras / stratagems. One of the things I like about 20 man CSM squads is I can put Abaddon in the middle of the table and stretch each squad to where they are controlling separate objectives while still benefitting from his aura. It makes a huge difference in their effectiveness ESPECIALLY when you consider alpha strike units, being able to reroll everything on overwatch is a big deal. The additional wounds also mitigates the impact of going second since not every wound takes down the army's effectiveness at such a great rate.

**lindsay40k**

I meant Somme reenactment as in lots of riflemen walking across no man's land to engage a prepared enemy. Like I say, it looks well suited to BL - you've basically got Astartes with the morale ability of Tyranids!

**techsoldaten**

lindsay40k wrote:
I meant Somme reenactment as in lots of riflemen walking across no man's land to engage a prepared enemy. Like I say, it looks well suited to BL - you've basically got Astartes with the morale ability of Tyranids!

Ahhh... that makes more sense. Thank you for explaining the reference. There's some hidden benefits to the morale buff that are worth discussing, which I will get into in another thread.

Now how do I get Abaddon's reroll aura on units he is not babysitting?

**lindsay40k**

LGBT - Let the Galaxy Burn. I'm not letting the acronym get into my autocorrect like capitalised Squad and Havoc have

**mrhappyface**

lindsay40k wrote:
LGBT - Let the Galaxy Burn. I'm not letting the acronym get into my autocorrect like capitalised Squad and Havoc have

Abaddon is secretly Anita Sarkeesian confirmed? (Though, to be fair on Abby, his temper isn't that bad)

**techsoldaten**

mrhappyface wrote:
lindsay40k wrote:
LGBT - Let the Galaxy Burn. I'm not letting the acronym get into my autocorrect like capitalised Squad and Havoc have

Abaddon is secretly Anita Sarkeesian confirmed? (Though, to be fair on Abby, his temper isn't that bad)

You know, I worked hard to set up that response. I am glad someone got it.

**Sersi**

mrhappyface wrote:
lindsay40k wrote:
LGBT - Let the Galaxy Burn. I'm not letting the acronym get into my autocorrect like capitalised Squad and Havoc have

Abaddon is secretly Anita Sarkeesian confirmed? (Though, to be fair on Abby, his temper isn't that bad)

I understood that reference. Abaddon: "You see when you look at the Imperium everything is chaos, Eldar...chaos, Necrons...yep Chaos. Everything's chaos and you have to point it all out." Actually that sounds more like Word Bearers...never mind.

**Slayer-Fan123**

techsoldaten wrote:
Have been swapping 10 man Noise Marine squads for 20 man CSM squads in my lists. There are some differences in playstyle worth discussing.

I am using 20 man CSM squads with bolt guns and 2x Lascannons. Going to compare them with NM squads with 10 men, 8 Sonic Blasters and 2x Blastmasters and a Rhino.

A number of people have cited the idea that NMs / KBs / Cultists / Chosen / Havocs do everything better. My response is kind of, these advantages mean less than you might think.

As far as the shooting advantages NMs get, it's not that significant. A Sonic Blaster is an assault 3 bolt gun. Assuming each squad is at full strength - when the NMs are shooting at 24 inches, they get 24 bolter shots compared to 18 with the CSMs. At 12 inches, they still get 24 shots but the CSMs get 36 with Rapid Fire.

I find what matters is what happens over multiple turns. In practice, few opponents stand around at 24 inches for those Noise Marines to shoot at. They are either advancing to close in for the charge or shooting back to whittle down the squad. Each time you lose a Noise Marine, you are losing 3 shots. Each time you lose a CSM, you are losing 1 shot.

So NMs come on strong but get weaker faster and they are half the size. I hate the feeling this glorious elite unit is about to lose so much of it's potency the turn after it disembarks, which is what happens when I play them. They may have a better position on the board because of the Rhino, but will they be able to hold it?

Compare this with the not-so-humble 20 man CSM squad. Since Rhinos are not an option, they march up the board. Sure, they take some wounds doing this, but they get to fire their Lascannons each turn. An extra 2 Lascannon shots per squad each turn is significant, those multi-damage wounds add up. Sure, they are not firing their bolters, but the NMs are not firing their Sonic Blasters either.

Where a 20 man CSM squad shines is camping objectives, they remain a long range threat while parking themselves just about anywhere on the board. When they have cover / a reroll aura / Prescience / VotLW going for them, removing them from the board becomes very hard. Now think about what happens when there are 3 of those 20 man CSM squads on separate objectives. Sure, it can be done, but it's not trivial.

So, NMs have some other advantages. Sure, they have MotA, they can fight first if they are Emperor's Children, and there's that Slaanesh Strategem for shooting twice. MotA is a boost a NM for the turn before it dies, then the squad is that much weaker. Fighting first is great for squads that are not dedicated shooting specialists, if it comes into play with NMs you are doing it wrong. This would be a great Legion trait for Berzerkers. Shooting twice is great, but you can give CSMs the same stratagem and they would have more shots at 12 inches. So it's not an exclusive advantage.

The game is 5 - 7 turns. If you are playing a game with objectives - where position matters - I see more value in big CSM squads. If you are playing a game where the goal is just to kill as many things as possible on the board - both are good, Emperor's Children NMs might have the edge. The one scenario I have found where Noise Marines are hands-down better is dropping 2 10 man squads with a Kharybdis Assault Claw, they can usually shoot up enough things to mitigate the blow back they take the next turn. Part of this is b/c the KAC is a huge distraction unit, it gets a lot of attention the moment it eats a tank.

For the record, the cost of each CSM squad works out to 312 points / 15 PL. The cost of each NM squad + Rhino works out to 294 points / 15 PL. So they are roughly equivalent. If you think it's easier to compare them without the Rhino at the same points, great, take 13 NMs (15 if you are playing power levels.)

Also for the record, I play Black Legion, and understand this would all be "better" if I was playing Alpha Legion. But Alpha Legion doesn't have Abaddon, and his reroll aura makes CSMs much better than they are otherwise - especially when we are talking about Lascannons. Also, you tend to have some wounds to spare in armies with 60+ CSMs, the +1 save is not as important.

I just don't see this as viable.

1. The squad can't fit in a rhino. That's not a big deal if the unit is durable or you got enough units falling back that not enough are gonna shoot. With the unit price that's not going to be the case. The less points you got in Cultist screens, the more likely a Deep Strike threat will do its job.
2. Noise Marines are an all-comer for intents and purposes. They have multiple attacks, so getting in melee isn't really an issue for them. You can't be as aggressive as you can with Berserker Marines or able to force tarpits with Plague Marines, but the option is there for weakened squads, where the Noise Marines have more attacks for the points.
3. You aren't getting in Rapid Fire range unless you're Alpha Legion and infiltrating them. That's easily one of the last squads I'd bother infiltrating because you're using Lascannons. Noise Marines need MUCH less help getting into position.
4. So in this general situation, we have Chosen/Havocs that do weapon saturation better. Chosen are only a few more points for an extra A/LD and the ability to spam weapons at a greater amount, which kinda makes them a Noise Marine equivalent in being able to bully smaller units. Havocs are the same price but instead spam Heavy Weapons in a more efficient manner. With the way detachments work now, slots are not that super contested for, which makes this almost a non-issue. So if you're really desperate and clinging for command points, might as well pay a 120 point tax for 30 wounds instead of 195 for 15, which need the actual kitting out for extra points.

**Champion of Slaanesh**

Anyone running plague marines? Im considering 5 with 2 flamers and a combi flamer on the champ running dark raiders so they can get nice and close.

**Jancoran**

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Anyone running plague marines? Im considering 5 with 2 flamers and a combi flamer on the champ running dark raiders so they can get nice and close.

tons are playing them.

**Virules**

Does anyone have any experience with Renegade Knights, especially dual thermal cannons? They just got upgraded to d6 shots instead of d3 shots per gun. I wish there was a way to give them more support, but sadly you can't target them with prescience or anything.

**Latro_**

Virules wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with Renegade Knights, especially dual thermal cannons? They just got upgraded to d6 shots instead of d3 shots per gun. I wish there was a way to give them more support, but sadly you can't target them with prescience or anything.

My thoughts on knights i have a dual GC and dual RFBC
- Defo go two weapons, titanic feet is good enough
- They will die sooner than you think, don't get close unless you know you can hack it
- Shooting is probably the best focus, no 5++ in combat and if you are that close you are smite bait
- bubble wrap, its becoming the go-to thing in 8th and it works wonders for chaos as we have access to horrors. For 177pts you can have 3 units of 13 brimstone horrors and 2 maleific lords in a batallion:
3 extra cmd pts, horrors can deny as can lords so thats 5 denies, the horrors are troops for objs and have a nice 4++. Mainly you can conga line your entire deployment zone to netuer the main knight killers which will be deep striking 9" melta type close range weapons and in addition they offer smite protection as they will be the closest models. Cannot emphasise how good this tactic is, i won a fair sized tourney on the weekend on the back of bubble wrapping my fellblade.

**lindsay40k**

Any particular reason for Brimstones in 13's? Just the points you had spare?

**ZergSmasher**

I thought Horrors could only deny with 1d6 same as when they cast. So unless your opponent rolls a 5 or less they can't actually deny anything. Am I wrong about this?

**Azuza001**

No that sounds right to me. But it's still worth taking a few for that instance. I like the idea of pink/blue/brim for my Tsons list but I don't think I will put my guys together until more info from the codex appears. I would hate to put a force together that isn't actually use able at this point.