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So I really like AdMech and CSM (Alpha Legion) a lot. I can't decide which army to pull the trigger on and was wondering which has (the arguably) stronger codex since I like each story and aesthetics about the same. Any opinions?

Alpha Legion has -1 to hit for enemies more than 12 inches away.

Msolve wrote:
So I really like AdMech and CSM (Alpha Legion) a lot. I can't decide which army to pull the trigger on and was wondering which has (the arguably) stronger codex since I like each story and aesthetics about the same. Any opinions?

The absolute top end of AdMech might be better (this is a big "might" because their strength hasn't been thoroughly tested yet and the huge mathematical numbers can potentially get shut down by tactics on the tabletop) but I think more of the Chaos codex is at the "upper end" of power than AdMech. AdMech is very pigeonholed into a Mars Spearhead+screen that focuses on blowing the enemy off the table while CSM can perform admirably with just about any theme.

Agreed. Chaos vs pure admech it's going to go to chaos. Just more options and more personality than ad mech.

Admech + options (IG, Assassins, Sisters, Marines, Inquisition ) vs Chaos is a different story. It's a question of how do you run your armies normally, how is your meta with allies, or are you someone that tries to run a pure army.

If I take obliterator's with mark of chaos tzeentch, do they get ephemeral form? If not, is the keyword there just to limit summoning options?

Trancefate wrote:
If I take obliterator's with mark of chaos tzeentch, do they get ephemeral form? If not, is the keyword there just to limit summoning options?

No they do not, as nothing on their datasheet says they do. Your Mark is largely important because it determines what synergies you can benefit from; for example, your obliterators are <Tzeentch> <Daemons> which means they benefit from auras such as the Changeling's.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Any particular reason for Brimstones in 13's? Just the points you had spare?

yea but found it works, a big unit will encourage a mass of shooting which will be bad on the ld tests...
small units are still durable with the 4++ and manoverable

Had a game this evening, I took 30 beserkers in 3 squads of 10, 10 raptors, a brass collar deamon prince, mini-kharn, and a helldrake vs Tyrnaids. I was playing as world eaters.

Was a close game but I won in the end. Some things to note that I found interesting.

1. 10 beserkers with chain swords charging 20 genestealers was incredible! They took out 18 genestealers before the steelers got to even swing back. That was nuts.

2. Deamon Princes are nasty! My prince and 4 beserkers just wrecked a flying hive tyrant and didn't even blink. God those things are cool.

3. Mini kharn was a bust, got jumped by a broodlord and never stood a chance. Oh well....

4. Trygon prime + termagaunts with devourers = scary as hell. This little combo killed off a full squad of beserkers before they could even do anything and then next turn killed the entire squad of raptors. I rolled poorly for the raptors charge twice so yeah.

5. I won't underestimate the helldrake again. I took it because it is a cool model. But the speed and firepower of the baleflamer, it was pretty much what finally killed the termagaunts and trygon prime in the end, I took it hoping to distract my opponent but in the end they didn't have enough power to deal with it by the time they got around to it.


All in all great game. I will say that I now agree 100%, the extra attack on charging isn't that big a deal, running as Renegade chapter is probably a better option overall. Advancing + charging is definitely a more useful trait than +1 attack on the charge if your footslogging it, even if your just going to keep your army pure khorne.

Anyone out there doing really Cultist heavy horde armies? How many Cultists are too many?

lcfr wrote:
Anyone out there doing really Cultist heavy horde armies? How many Cultists are too many?

I like them for line breaking. Theres a strategem you can use to just pick em up and plop em "Over there" at games end.

Azuza001 wrote:
Had a game this evening, I took 30 beserkers in 3 squads of 10, 10 raptors, a brass collar deamon prince, mini-kharn, and a helldrake vs Tyrnaids. I was playing as world eaters.

Was a close game but I won in the end. Some things to note that I found interesting.

1. 10 beserkers with chain swords charging 20 genestealers was incredible! They took out 18 genestealers before the steelers got to even swing back. That was nuts.

2. Deamon Princes are nasty! My prince and 4 beserkers just wrecked a flying hive tyrant and didn't even blink. God those things are cool.

3. Mini kharn was a bust, got jumped by a broodlord and never stood a chance. Oh well....

4. Trygon prime + termagaunts with devourers = scary as hell. This little combo killed off a full squad of beserkers before they could even do anything and then next turn killed the entire squad of raptors. I rolled poorly for the raptors charge twice so yeah.

5. I won't underestimate the helldrake again. I took it because it is a cool model. But the speed and firepower of the baleflamer, it was pretty much what finally killed the termagaunts and trygon prime in the end, I took it hoping to distract my opponent but in the end they didn't have enough power to deal with it by the time they got around to it.


All in all great game. I will say that I now agree 100%, the extra attack on charging isn't that big a deal, running as Renegade chapter is probably a better option overall. Advancing + charging is definitely a more useful trait than +1 attack on the charge if your footslogging it, even if your just going to keep your army pure khorne.

Okay, first of all, is Mini-Kharn a Dark Apostle, an Exalted Champion, or a tooled-up Chaos Lord? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

On your other points:
1) Why did the Nids player not use 2 CP to interrupt combat and swing with the Stealers after the first swing by the Zerkers? That's what always seems to happen to my Berzerkers, which is why I'm not fully understanding the hype behind them. They are powerful, but ultimately so easy to gimp. Or are you supposed to get both sets of attacks before the opponent is allowed to possibly interrupt combat?

2) What weapon did the Prince have? I'm assuming double talons, but maybe you went with the sword option? Also, did the Brass Collar do any work at all, or do you think you'd have been okay with the Talisman of Burning Blood?

3) Sorry to hear that your character didn't get to do anything. That always sucks, especially if you're trying to figure out how to use said character well.

4) I can understand completely how nasty a Trygon Prime can be. They can get Termagants, Hormagaunts, or even Genestealers into your backfield very quickly and reliably. For Chaos, I guess this is where cultist bubble wrap comes in handy, no?

5) I have yet to use a Hellturkey in 8th. I wasn't sold on them since even though the baleflamer is powerful that d6 shots can bite you if you roll a 1. Seeing this report I might just have to give mine a try and see what happens.

I definitely agree that if you're footslogging you're better off with Renegades, but I would think that in general running Berzerkers in Rhinos is a better option anyways. Gets them where they are going faster and more safely.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Have been swapping 10 man Noise Marine squads for 20 man CSM squads in my lists. There are some differences in playstyle worth discussing...

Also for the record, I play Black Legion, and understand this would all be "better" if I was playing Alpha Legion. But Alpha Legion doesn't have Abaddon, and his reroll aura makes CSMs much better than they are otherwise - especially when we are talking about Lascannons. Also, you tend to have some wounds to spare in armies with 60+ CSMs, the +1 save is not as important.

I just don't see this as viable.

1. The squad can't fit in a rhino. That's not a big deal if the unit is durable or you got enough units falling back that not enough are gonna shoot. With the unit price that's not going to be the case. The less points you got in Cultist screens, the more likely a Deep Strike threat will do its job.
2. Noise Marines are an all-comer for intents and purposes. They have multiple attacks, so getting in melee isn't really an issue for them. You can't be as aggressive as you can with Berserker Marines or able to force tarpits with Plague Marines, but the option is there for weakened squads, where the Noise Marines have more attacks for the points.
3. You aren't getting in Rapid Fire range unless you're Alpha Legion and infiltrating them. That's easily one of the last squads I'd bother infiltrating because you're using Lascannons. Noise Marines need MUCH less help getting into position.
4. So in this general situation, we have Chosen/Havocs that do weapon saturation better. Chosen are only a few more points for an extra A/LD and the ability to spam weapons at a greater amount, which kinda makes them a Noise Marine equivalent in being able to bully smaller units. Havocs are the same price but instead spam Heavy Weapons in a more efficient manner. With the way detachments work now, slots are not that super contested for, which makes this almost a non-issue. So if you're really desperate and clinging for command points, might as well pay a 120 point tax for 30 wounds instead of 195 for 15, which need the actual kitting out for extra points.

Yeah, but I'm finding some of those things don't matter as much as some people think they do.

1) The real benefits I get from Rhinos is moving 12 inches on the first turn and protecting the occupants. I can deal with losing 2 - 4 CSM marching up the board. If I really want that extra movement, I can advance and fire.

2) My Noise Marines almost never get into close combat. They jump out of a Rhino, they shoot things up, then they get shot up. With infantry, the extra wounds seem to mean more than more than extra attacks.

3) I am finding moving into position for rapid fire matters less with large squads. Sure, it would be nice to be right in someone's face, but I have played several games where my opponent is moving up the board to get my CSMs off objectives. I mean, it's a lot of models, sometimes I have one squad covering multiple objectives.

4) Not sure I agree with the point about Chosen and Havocs. I wanted to write them up separately, since I am a lot more familiar with Noise Marines.

@Zergsmasher - I think the idea with Berzerkers is a straight 6A or 4A+cs would have been completely over the top, in a way I quite like that their second round of attacks can be interrupted as this forces the enemy to burn 2CP whenever we engage a unit that can put up a fight, and adds to threat overload when we have multiple key melees.

Say, folks, how are people finding Greater Daemons? I'm refurbing my old Bloodthirster, but found him underwhelming so far - his main accomplishment to date has been losing me a game when Genestealers scored Kingslayer against him, and he's never going to get Summoned. I'm making a KoS, they seem like a pretty good idea to have to hand when Summoningnis definitely on the cards, especially for Word Bearers. That said, GUO is possibly better suited to the role, given that the requirement for a stationary character means that Summoning is mostly something that gets done from a secure position - be it a home objective, firing line, or a deep insertion force that's held on for a turn or two.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Have been swapping 10 man Noise Marine squads for 20 man CSM squads in my lists. There are some differences in playstyle worth discussing...

Also for the record, I play Black Legion, and understand this would all be "better" if I was playing Alpha Legion. But Alpha Legion doesn't have Abaddon, and his reroll aura makes CSMs much better than they are otherwise - especially when we are talking about Lascannons. Also, you tend to have some wounds to spare in armies with 60+ CSMs, the +1 save is not as important.

I just don't see this as viable.

1. The squad can't fit in a rhino. That's not a big deal if the unit is durable or you got enough units falling back that not enough are gonna shoot. With the unit price that's not going to be the case. The less points you got in Cultist screens, the more likely a Deep Strike threat will do its job.
2. Noise Marines are an all-comer for intents and purposes. They have multiple attacks, so getting in melee isn't really an issue for them. You can't be as aggressive as you can with Berserker Marines or able to force tarpits with Plague Marines, but the option is there for weakened squads, where the Noise Marines have more attacks for the points.
3. You aren't getting in Rapid Fire range unless you're Alpha Legion and infiltrating them. That's easily one of the last squads I'd bother infiltrating because you're using Lascannons. Noise Marines need MUCH less help getting into position.
4. So in this general situation, we have Chosen/Havocs that do weapon saturation better. Chosen are only a few more points for an extra A/LD and the ability to spam weapons at a greater amount, which kinda makes them a Noise Marine equivalent in being able to bully smaller units. Havocs are the same price but instead spam Heavy Weapons in a more efficient manner. With the way detachments work now, slots are not that super contested for, which makes this almost a non-issue. So if you're really desperate and clinging for command points, might as well pay a 120 point tax for 30 wounds instead of 195 for 15, which need the actual kitting out for extra points.

Yeah, but I'm finding some of those things don't matter as much as some people think they do.

1) The real benefits I get from Rhinos is moving 12 inches on the first turn and protecting the occupants. I can deal with losing 2 - 4 CSM marching up the board. If I really want that extra movement, I can advance and fire.

2) My Noise Marines almost never get into close combat. They jump out of a Rhino, they shoot things up, then they get shot up. With infantry, the extra wounds seem to mean more than more than extra attacks.

3) I am finding moving into position for rapid fire matters less with large squads. Sure, it would be nice to be right in someone's face, but I have played several games where my opponent is moving up the board to get my CSMs off objectives. I mean, it's a lot of models, sometimes I have one squad covering multiple objectives.

4) Not sure I agree with the point about Chosen and Havocs. I wanted to write them up separately, since I am a lot more familiar with Noise Marines.

1. You're going to lose more than that. They have to kill just enough to force a bad Battleshock test. With Word Bearers that is less an issue but it isn't worth the larger squad regardless. You're also advancing and firing with maybe 10 Bolters shots at the BS4+ while not utilising the Lascannons you're paying 300 points for. For the points, that's not worth a turn of no firing.
2. However the Noise Marines get closer safer in the rhino, and shoot and then charge something that'll be forced to fall back so they can be shot at. Entirely worth it.
3. They don't have to move that much. Killing a Marine isn't exactly a hard task at range or melee. If someone drops in for melee and has a 48% to charge, you're basically at half risk for the unit to be nullified because they NEED to fall back. You'll need bubble wrap, which is hard to pay for when you got multiples of these squads you're promoting.
4. I use them a lot. So I know.

It's one thing if they let you purchase the weapon for every 5 dudes, but you don't. At least a 20 man squad with 5 Lascannons would be entertaining.

Also, how are you advancing and firing with Rapid Fire guns?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, how are you advancing and firing with Rapid Fire guns?

Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, how are you advancing and firing with Rapid Fire guns?

Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.

Ah, okay. So instead of getting 24-30 shots at a 4+ (10-man Noise Marine squad, depending on how many Blastmasters you got) you get 16-20 shots at 4+ (depending on how many Lascannons you got).

So... A lot less effective.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. You're going to lose more than that. They have to kill just enough to force a bad Battleshock test. With Word Bearers that is less an issue but it isn't worth the larger squad regardless. You're also advancing and firing with maybe 10 Bolters shots at the BS4+ while not utilising the Lascannons you're paying 300 points for. For the points, that's not worth a turn of no firing.
2. However the Noise Marines get closer safer in the rhino, and shoot and then charge something that'll be forced to fall back so they can be shot at. Entirely worth it.
3. They don't have to move that much. Killing a Marine isn't exactly a hard task at range or melee. If someone drops in for melee and has a 48% to charge, you're basically at half risk for the unit to be nullified because they NEED to fall back. You'll need bubble wrap, which is hard to pay for when you got multiples of these squads you're promoting.
4. I use them a lot. So I know.

It's one thing if they let you purchase the weapon for every 5 dudes, but you don't. At least a 20 man squad with 5 Lascannons would be entertaining.

Amusing reply. I've been using 3x 20 man CSM squads the last 4 games I played. So let me speak from experience.

1) Battleshock test.... I think you mean morale. With Ld 10 I have not lost a single marine to morale.

1.1) "Not utilizing the Lascannons" You can fire heavy weapons while moving this edition with a -1 to hit modifier. The way to avoid that is putting the Lascannon in the front of your squad, moving everything but the lascannon, and then catching up, maybe on the third turn.

2) "Entirely worth it." Were 40k a 1 - 2 round game, I might not be questioning their use.

3) With regards to not having to move that much, you are making my point for me.

3.5) I have no clue what this imaginative rant is supposed to mean. "If someone drops in for melee and has a 48% chance to charge..." I assume you were talking about deep striking. That's not 48%, there is a thing called overwatch, and charging 20 MEQ is not smart for most things that can deep strike. Unless the charging squad is armed with French Ticklers, a fall back move is about as likely as Noise Marines surviving a couple rounds of combat.

4) That's lovely you use other squads. Many of us do. Thank you for sharing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, how are you advancing and firing with Rapid Fire guns?

Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.

In practice, I lose maybe 2 CSMs per turn to shooting per squad. It's not hard to make that Leadership reroll.

Advancing and firing is better than rerolling a morale check. I am pretty sure it's better than the -1 to hit Alpha Legion trait, in terms of the total models one might lose from the board in most cases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, how are you advancing and firing with Rapid Fire guns?

Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.

Ah, okay. So instead of getting 24-30 shots at a 4+ (10-man Noise Marine squad, depending on how many Blastmasters you got) you get 16-20 shots at 4+ (depending on how many Lascannons you got).

So... A lot less effective.

Assume you have 8 sonic blasters and 2 blastmasters in that 10 man unit of Noise Marines. Count the number of shots you get a 6 wounds (not counting MotA). Compare that to the number of shots a 20 man CSM squad has after taking 6 wounds.

The Noise Marines may get a great round of shooting the turn they disembark from their Rhino. Most competent opponents know to shoot them afterwards, which often results in those 10 MEQ going off the table.

OTOH, a large blob of CSMs that has taken 6 wounds becomes as effective in terms of shots as that same Noise Marine squad, but it has an extra 10 wounds to play with. It's far more effective in Rapid Fire range.

Given the game happens over a number of turns, the CSMs can be considered more effective.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Had a game this evening, I took 30 beserkers in 3 squads of 10, 10 raptors, a brass collar deamon prince, mini-kharn, and a helldrake vs Tyrnaids. I was playing as world eaters.

Was a close game but I won in the end. Some things to note that I found interesting.

1. 10 beserkers with chain swords charging 20 genestealers was incredible! They took out 18 genestealers before the steelers got to even swing back. That was nuts.

2. Deamon Princes are nasty! My prince and 4 beserkers just wrecked a flying hive tyrant and didn't even blink. God those things are cool.

3. Mini kharn was a bust, got jumped by a broodlord and never stood a chance. Oh well....

4. Trygon prime + termagaunts with devourers = scary as hell. This little combo killed off a full squad of beserkers before they could even do anything and then next turn killed the entire squad of raptors. I rolled poorly for the raptors charge twice so yeah.

5. I won't underestimate the helldrake again. I took it because it is a cool model. But the speed and firepower of the baleflamer, it was pretty much what finally killed the termagaunts and trygon prime in the end, I took it hoping to distract my opponent but in the end they didn't have enough power to deal with it by the time they got around to it.


All in all great game. I will say that I now agree 100%, the extra attack on charging isn't that big a deal, running as Renegade chapter is probably a better option overall. Advancing + charging is definitely a more useful trait than +1 attack on the charge if your footslogging it, even if your just going to keep your army pure khorne.

Okay, first of all, is Mini-Kharn a Dark Apostle, an Exalted Champion, or a tooled-up Chaos Lord? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

On your other points:
1) Why did the Nids player not use 2 CP to interrupt combat and swing with the Stealers after the first swing by the Zerkers? That's what always seems to happen to my Berzerkers, which is why I'm not fully understanding the hype behind them. They are powerful, but ultimately so easy to gimp. Or are you supposed to get both sets of attacks before the opponent is allowed to possibly interrupt combat?

2) What weapon did the Prince have? I'm assuming double talons, but maybe you went with the sword option? Also, did the Brass Collar do any work at all, or do you think you'd have been okay with the Talisman of Burning Blood?

3) Sorry to hear that your character didn't get to do anything. That always sucks, especially if you're trying to figure out how to use said character well.

4) I can understand completely how nasty a Trygon Prime can be. They can get Termagants, Hormagaunts, or even Genestealers into your backfield very quickly and reliably. For Chaos, I guess this is where cultist bubble wrap comes in handy, no?

5) I have yet to use a Hellturkey in 8th. I wasn't sold on them since even though the baleflamer is powerful that d6 shots can bite you if you roll a 1. Seeing this report I might just have to give mine a try and see what happens.

I definitely agree that if you're footslogging you're better off with Renegades, but I would think that in general running Berzerkers in Rhinos is a better option anyways. Gets them where they are going faster and more safely.

Mini kharn was a chaos lord with axe of Blind Fury.

1. They did not interrupt because they interrupted with their hive tyrant. I was lucky and got 3 charges off at the same time, 1 beserker squad vs steelers, 1 squad with chain axes vs hive tyrant, and Deamon Prince vs hive tyrant. The tyrant interrupted and took out most of the squad of beserkers leaving 4 left from the squad to swing back, but left my other beserkers free to wipe the genestealers.

2. Prince did dual talons. It's really the only way to run those guys in my opinion. Brass color worked every time, and did 2 wounds to the broodlord it was blocking. So yeah, I'm a fan of it. After the 2nd time the broodlord just stopped trying to cast because they couldn't afford another perils.

4. My army was full mobile, no "gunlines" to speak of. Heck my bale flamer on "Kentucky" (my helldrakes name) was the longest ranged weapon I had, and he was tied up the first turn the trygon prime popped up so was not in a position to deal with the termagaunts. After they wiped the raptors and one squad of beserkers I changed tactics and made a straight line for them, the flamer did the rest. I really thought the raptors would be able to take them out as a counter deploy but bad rolls and a charge roll of 2 left too many to fire back. Live and learn lol.

5. Yeah, original plan was a distraction that my opponent ignored. In the end though that left it free to play with whatever it wanted. Opponent won't make that mistake again lol.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. You're going to lose more than that. They have to kill just enough to force a bad Battleshock test. With Word Bearers that is less an issue but it isn't worth the larger squad regardless. You're also advancing and firing with maybe 10 Bolters shots at the BS4+ while not utilising the Lascannons you're paying 300 points for. For the points, that's not worth a turn of no firing.
2. However the Noise Marines get closer safer in the rhino, and shoot and then charge something that'll be forced to fall back so they can be shot at. Entirely worth it.
3. They don't have to move that much. Killing a Marine isn't exactly a hard task at range or melee. If someone drops in for melee and has a 48% to charge, you're basically at half risk for the unit to be nullified because they NEED to fall back. You'll need bubble wrap, which is hard to pay for when you got multiples of these squads you're promoting.
4. I use them a lot. So I know.

It's one thing if they let you purchase the weapon for every 5 dudes, but you don't. At least a 20 man squad with 5 Lascannons would be entertaining.

Amusing reply. I've been using 3x 20 man CSM squads the last 4 games I played. So let me speak from experience.

1) Battleshock test.... I think you mean morale. With Ld 10 I have not lost a single marine to morale.

1.1) "Not utilizing the Lascannons" You can fire heavy weapons while moving this edition with a -1 to hit modifier. The way to avoid that is putting the Lascannon in the front of your squad, moving everything but the lascannon, and then catching up, maybe on the third turn.

2) "Entirely worth it." Were 40k a 1 - 2 round game, I might not be questioning their use.

3) With regards to not having to move that much, you are making my point for me.

3.5) I have no clue what this imaginative rant is supposed to mean. "If someone drops in for melee and has a 48% chance to charge..." I assume you were talking about deep striking. That's not 48%, there is a thing called overwatch, and charging 20 MEQ is not smart for most things that can deep strike. Unless the charging squad is armed with French Ticklers, a fall back move is about as likely as Noise Marines surviving a couple rounds of combat.

4) That's lovely you use other squads. Many of us do. Thank you for sharing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, how are you advancing and firing with Rapid Fire guns?

Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.

In practice, I lose maybe 2 CSMs per turn to shooting per squad. It's not hard to make that Leadership reroll.

Advancing and firing is better than rerolling a morale check. I am pretty sure it's better than the -1 to hit Alpha Legion trait, in terms of the total models one might lose from the board in most cases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, how are you advancing and firing with Rapid Fire guns?

Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.

Ah, okay. So instead of getting 24-30 shots at a 4+ (10-man Noise Marine squad, depending on how many Blastmasters you got) you get 16-20 shots at 4+ (depending on how many Lascannons you got).

So... A lot less effective.

Assume you have 8 sonic blasters and 2 blastmasters in that 10 man unit of Noise Marines. Count the number of shots you get a 6 wounds (not counting MotA). Compare that to the number of shots a 20 man CSM squad has after taking 6 wounds.

The Noise Marines may get a great round of shooting the turn they disembark from their Rhino. Most competent opponents know to shoot them afterwards, which often results in those 10 MEQ going off the table.

OTOH, a large blob of CSMs that has taken 6 wounds becomes as effective in terms of shots as that same Noise Marine squad, but it has an extra 10 wounds to play with. It's far more effective in Rapid Fire range.

Given the game happens over a number of turns, the CSMs can be considered more effective.

I'm speaking as a competitive player warning newer players why this strategy is bad.
1. It's Battleshock from AoS basically. I prefer it as a shorthand for Morale Tests. Much quicker to type.
Also I don't know where you're getting Ld10 from, but it isn't hard losing models to it. Necron players aren't doing Warrior squads over 10-15 for a reason and they're LD10.
Also if you read, I said you don't get the Lascannons if you advance. For a 300 point unit, you can't afford to advance for a single turn and lose Lascannon usage because you need the rest of the unit in range for the Bolters that'll never fire relevantly.
2. It isn't so I don't know what your point is?
3. I'm saying they can't move much. You have a 300 point unit that can't get anywhere. It's 2 Lascannons and 18 Bolters (19 if you spring for a Combi-Bolter). Maybe 5-10 of those will hit anything, and then the rest sit there. All it takes is one melee unit to put it out of commission. Nobody is afraid of a 20 man Marine squad in melee! You'll have to be forced to fall back because you need those Lascannons firing, and they aren't gonna overwhelm anybody. It's unwieldy and bad.
4. Anybody Deep Striking for melee is going to have a way to reroll unless they like to live dangerously, which is then a 48% (look at Asterion, Shrike, and Black Templars as Loyalist examples, Raptors w/ Khorne Icons and infiltrated Icon Berserker Marines for Chaos, there's a few good examples), and the Overwatch is not dangerous. 36 Bolter shots in Overwatch is one dead Marine. One. The Lascannons inflict less than 0.2 deaths. So if your opponent is incapable of math, yeah there's Overwatch. There's also not caring about Overwatch. The latter is what you're going for, definitely.

Also Alpha Legion has the better survivability trait. Morale checks don't matter if you don't have to make them. With lower squad numbers that's not a worry for Alpha Legion. I have no idea why you'd ever suggest that, ever. Black Legion has easily the worst trait in the book and are the equivalent of Iron Hands for the Loyalists, except you get access to what is actually a pretty great character. Still not worth bothering with though.

You're also proposing the squad in your scenario is ever in Rapid Fire range. It won't be because it can't move anywhere efficiently.

Not meaning to jump in and upset anyone but slayer fan is right. The ONLY way I would run 20 man squads would be using power level (because 5 of them are basically free at that point) and with plasma guns or melta guns, no heavy weapons. And even then I would only take it for the laughs in a friendly game if I am trying to mess with my opponent and take something random.

Chaos marines are not bad, it's just they get outshined by other things which can be used as an advantage. If you have 20 marines and 10 havocs behind them I am shooting the havocs first. Marines are not scarry enough to warrant a first turn shoot-and-wipe but 20 marines in rapid range can do some damage.

So… you can only play Tide of Traitors if you have a Chaos Space Marines detachment, for instance Khârn leading three squads of Emperor's Children. If you do play it, then you can play it on Cultists belonging to the Death Guard, who apparently are not Chaos Slace Marines.

This is the very first subfaction Codex, and confidence in 'simpler & more intuitive' feels like it's giving way to suspension of common sense

One thing worth mentioning in all this talk of chaos space marine squad sizes, is that one 20 man squad shoehorned into a list is a lot less effective than 60 marines with proper morale and re-roll support.

4 razorbacks with Roboute re-rolls, in a best case scenario where they don't have to move to get into range, and the marines don't have cover, will kill about 19 marines. It could just be the lists than i'm running, but i think 30 is probably on the high end of marines killed in a realistic turn of shooting, since you also need to have things for heavy infantry and tanks in an all comers list. And, depending on what else is in the list with the 60 marines, you might not be able to throw that many shots into the 60 if there are also things like havocs or noise marines around. So i definitely think that at some point the critical mass of marines starts force multiplying their usefulness, especially if you have ways to add to their durability through legion traits, or their morale through Abaddon, if that makes sense.

So, although I agree that spamming 60 marines for over 900 points probably isn't the best way to play CSM (especially when cultists exist), I am also not surprised that some people are having success with them, especially in local meta situations outside of very large tournament scenes, which the average local game store / pick up game player really isn't worried about.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm speaking as a competitive player warning newer players why this strategy is bad.
1. It's Battleshock from AoS basically. I prefer it as a shorthand for Morale Tests. Much quicker to type.
Also I don't know where you're getting Ld10 from, but it isn't hard losing models to it. Necron players aren't doing Warrior squads over 10-15 for a reason and they're LD10.
Also if you read, I said you don't get the Lascannons if you advance. For a 300 point unit, you can't afford to advance for a single turn and lose Lascannon usage because you need the rest of the unit in range for the Bolters that'll never fire relevantly.
2. It isn't so I don't know what your point is?
3. I'm saying they can't move much. You have a 300 point unit that can't get anywhere. It's 2 Lascannons and 18 Bolters (19 if you spring for a Combi-Bolter). Maybe 5-10 of those will hit anything, and then the rest sit there. All it takes is one melee unit to put it out of commission. Nobody is afraid of a 20 man Marine squad in melee! You'll have to be forced to fall back because you need those Lascannons firing, and they aren't gonna overwhelm anybody. It's unwieldy and bad.
4. Anybody Deep Striking for melee is going to have a way to reroll unless they like to live dangerously, which is then a 48% (look at Asterion, Shrike, and Black Templars as Loyalist examples, Raptors w/ Khorne Icons and infiltrated Icon Berserker Marines for Chaos, there's a few good examples), and the Overwatch is not dangerous. 36 Bolter shots in Overwatch is one dead Marine. One. The Lascannons inflict less than 0.2 deaths. So if your opponent is incapable of math, yeah there's Overwatch. There's also not caring about Overwatch. The latter is what you're going for, definitely.

Also Alpha Legion has the better survivability trait. Morale checks don't matter if you don't have to make them. With lower squad numbers that's not a worry for Alpha Legion. I have no idea why you'd ever suggest that, ever. Black Legion has easily the worst trait in the book and are the equivalent of Iron Hands for the Loyalists, except you get access to what is actually a pretty great character. Still not worth bothering with though.

You're also proposing the squad in your scenario is ever in Rapid Fire range. It won't be because it can't move anywhere efficiently.

Yeah, I might have overstated a couple of points. Happy to clarify.

Since you are a competitive player, I ask you to remember the original comparison from earlier in the thread: a 10x man NM squad vs a 20x man BL CSM squad. I'm sure you have some other ideas in mind, but I have been arguing this selection.

1) You're right, it's Ld9 on BL CSM squads. i sometimes get Ld10 when they have a Dark Apostle near them.

1.1) Then don't advance, or only advance with one squad. I do fine marching across the table. Advancing and shooting is a nice to have that doesn't get used each turn.

2) My point is Noise Marines have less wounds and the game does not stop the round they get out of a Rhino. What I think you are arguing is the added mobility the NMs gain from Rhino gives them some advantage and I am saying that rarely works out in practice.

In general, my NMs are disembarking turn 2 because a) something is in range and b) I don't want the Rhino destroyed and the occupants shot up before they get a chance to shoot. So the Rhino has moved at 18 inches (12 inch movement + advance) and the Noise Marines have moved another 9 (3 inch disembark + 6 inch movement.)

That's 15 inches further than the CSMs could move by turn 2 without advancing. But now the Noise Marines are in 24 inches of the opponent, without a screen, and without an HQ with an aura. They are going to have a great turn of shooting, then take a lot of wounds because they are a priority target.

Before I go on, do you want to explain what you are doing to keep that from happening? Because being out in front has generally not worked for me in many games. I was finding the only reason I was using the Rhinos was to shield NMs from first-turn shooting and mobility didn't mean much.

3) Those 300 point CSM squads move far enough to take objectives, which is typically where I want them.

4) Sure. Forgetting the reroll shenanigans are once per turn for most armies, let's say whoever is deep striking makes it. Go ahead and charge a 20 man BL CSM squad standing next to Abaddon & an Exalted Champion. Make sure you set up to do at least 15 wounds against MEQ because Overwatch with rerolls + DttFE is a lot more potent than you claim, close combat is lethal, and Abaddon is going to charge the next turn.

With regards to Alpha Legion, sure, they take 16% fewer hits because of the Legion Trait. That's quite an advantage.

The reason people play Black Legion is to reroll all misses to hit because of Abaddon. I have not taken the time to do much math around this but I am happy with the offensive bonuses.

What kills the Noise Marines in a Rhino is Abaddon. It's very hard for NMs to benefit from him when they are in a Rhino, and they suffer the same problems you describe when they are not. If you deploy Abaddon with the rest of your army, he's going to be 15 inches behind the Noise Marines by turn 2. If you deploy him from Deep Strike, he won't be buffing your army turn one and there's a very good chance he will be in the open by turn 3 once the NMs have gone down.

Maybe it's a Black Legion thing or a matched play thing, but I don't see how standing up a unit with half the wounds way in front of the rest of your army is better than a slower moving force with double the wounds.

Speaking as someone who is usually an Alpha Legion shooty CSM player, I find that my CSM squads tend to not move much after they get out of the Rhino. They get where they are going, and they don't leave. Or they do not go very far. If this is what I want a unit to do, Noise Marines. Every time. Plenty of shooty firepower, that does not need to be in rapid fire range. If it is not, if I want a unit that is going to look big, and menacing, and draw fire on merits of "these guys need to get off that objective," then 20 CSM will do the job. The two units fill very different roles. One is fire support, the other is a big, scary bullet sponge. Or a mass melee unit.
I do not know why you would take lascannons in a basic CSM squad in the first place, so if someone could explain that bit of silliness to me, I would appreciate it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

lcfr wrote:
Anyone out there doing really Cultist heavy horde armies? How many Cultists are too many?

I like them for line breaking. Theres a strategem you can use to just pick em up and plop em "Over there" at games end.

I will tell you what I tell everyone else: "Never enough cultists." 4 pts a model in any loadout. Squads of up to 40. You can bring battalion detachments for 260 pts. Chaos blurs the line between elite and horde in every game because it has this unit. Need to stall some gaunts. Cultists. Need to hold a rear line objective. Cultists. Need to look bigger than I am. Cultists. Need to fill out a detachment. Cultists.

If I ever say I have too many cultists, it will be because I used only Cultists in a 2000 point game. The sad fact is that Cultists are valuable horde models, but they lack the punishing strength potential that you find in the rest of the codex. So take as many as you like, and always be looking for more.

Edit: And yes, suddenly dropping on a random objective has its perks.

Taking Lascannons in CSM squads is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Your heavy weapon is now protected by 5-9 wounds instead of 1-2 in the case of a Havoc squad.

I think big units of CSM is perfectly viable, especially as Black Legion because of their trait and stratagem. Don't forget they have ObSec that NMs don't get unless they are in an EC detachment.

saint_red wrote:
Taking Lascannons in CSM squads is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Your heavy weapon is now protected by 5-9 wounds instead of 1-2 in the case of a Havoc squad.

I think big units of CSM is perfectly viable, especially as Black Legion because of their trait and stratagem. Don't forget they have ObSec that NMs don't get unless they are in an EC detachment.

24 points more than plasma guns in a squad with two heavy/special weapons, and they get bogged down by the heavy guns. And Havoc Squads should really run in pairs anyways(2 lascannons, and 2 heavy bolters each) to split the pressure. How shooting works this edition means everything is shooting where it is supposed to, and it adjusts for an all comers list by being more prepared for infantry heavy lists.

Additionally, triple Predator Annihilators, while expensive, only cost 10 points per unit more than the 10 man squad with 2 lascannons, has 4 lascannons each, and has the option to wound Knights on 2+ with their stratagem. The only edge a CSM squad would have is mobility, and not degrading, which is part of why you take three of them.

Obliterators have a better average against most units than two lascannons can give a 10 man squad like that as well. Base 12 shots. No penalty for moving. Max potential damage of 36 against the 10 man squad's 28. And only 15 points more.

Maybe you are right. Maybe there is a place for it. I just cannot see one in my lists.

As for twenty man CSM blobs being viable, these I can see myself running. Just under 300 points for a relatively expendable unit charging your opponent's center is a very viable thing.

Havocs are basically CSM with more options but because they are not troops their points per command point is worse and they don't have ObSec. They're still a great unit but CSM have their role.

Predators are good too but really suffer from degradation. While not totally relevant, the Killshot stratagem sucks because you won't get to use it more than once against any competent player.

Oblits are extremely good, no issues there. Problem is that again, they are not troops.


I run my CSM is a unit of 10 with a heavy bolter and missile launcher. Double plasma works well too and I would suggest that for Black Legion. They are used to contest and sit on objectives and they do it damn well. I use the Renegades legion trait and that gives them a bit of extra mobility to shift the enemy off objectives too.

I'm open to the CSM horde and to CSM Lascannons (especially as a PL player who pays for them no matter what), but they don't work together for me. If you're doing the Abaddon horde, you probably benefit more from Plasma that isn't wasted when you Advance?

I can see the fearless sixty working as a ploy that people aren't expecting to have to deal with. I don't buy the criticism that you leave Abby behind, with units of 20 daisy-chaining is not difficult, plus with careful positioning Abby himself can follow them up to 5" and still be heard by the gunners he's directing, and you practically have to completely pile in to the enemy DZ to get out of fearless range.

I'd certainly be interested in playing against such an army. I suspect the limited mobility of the three 20s would make it feasible to deal with with the sort of stuff I usually bring to all-comers.

 lindsay40k wrote:
So… you can only play Tide of Traitors if you have a Chaos Space Marines detachment, for instance Khârn leading three squads of Emperor's Children. If you do play it, then you can play it on Cultists belonging to the Death Guard, who apparently are not Chaos Slace Marines.

This is the very first subfaction Codex, and confidence in 'simpler & more intuitive' feels like it's giving way to suspension of common sense

It does say in the preface section for all the stratagems in the CSM codex that the Death Guard and Thousand Suns don't get them due to having their own books. The FAQ just clarified that stratagems are unlocked based on having a detachment of the corresponding faction in the army and that cross-faction stratagems will work as long as the target shares the correct targeting keyword.