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Yeah... I’ve not been too impressed with my Land Raider this edition, and facing off against a Knight and Hierodule I’ve not felt afraid about their army as a whole. I’d probably not be as interested in paying the ‘Titan tax’ were I not usually in friendly games against opponents doing the same.

What do people think about havocs vs chosen? Im looking at my current AL list which has two units of chosen with plasma guns to fill out a vanguard detachment. But im wondering if i would be better off going for for the spearhead and taking 2 units of havocs and a unit of oblits instead.

How are people loading out their havocs and how have they been pefroming?

fishwaffle2232 wrote:
What do people think about havocs vs chosen? Im looking at my current AL list which has two units of chosen with plasma guns to fill out a vanguard detachment. But im wondering if i would be better off going for for the spearhead and taking 2 units of havocs and a unit of oblits instead.

How are people loading out their havocs and how have they been pefroming?

Plasma squads are going to get fairly up close, I find they benefit from Chosen’s 2A & extra weapon slot. Playing Power Levels, I’ve got a combi-plasma squad in the works; it’s an extra Overwatch hit or two.

Spearhead with autocannon Havocs, Missile Launcher Havocs, Lord and Oblits is the first thing I write in nearly every list, and probably will remain so until I get four Lascannon to replace the Missiles.

Already having a minimal Spearhead also means that the Chosen help fill out a Vanguard; if I were taking two Plasma squads and only had one Elite and one HS choice, it’d probably come down to army budgeting whether I fielded them as Havocs or Chosen.

How are the autocannons working out for you? Their target profile seems pretty low so I haven't used them yet. The changes to S v T and wounding really hurt them as it really diminishes the value of S7.

As for TITANIC units I'm thinking the Daemon Lords could be the way to go too. Zarakynel looks like she/he/it/<pronoun> can kick some serious arse and generally be a massive pain to deal with in close quarters. Aetaos'rau'keres looks extremely good but is a bit too obnoxious to be taking to casual games.

Other than that I like the look of the Typhon but again think it would be slightly too many points. It's cannon has a huge range of targets though which is really where it's value lies, plus 2+ lascannon sponsons don't hurt. I also just love the idea of a Typhon rumbling around a corner and all the corpse worshippers running for cover as it brings it's gun to bear.

Has anyone else had success with these big expensive units?

The Autocannons aren’t bad. They outperform HBs against Primaris and Terminators, and if there’s Storm Shields they outperform even heavier stuff. They’re adequate against Thunderwolves as well - again, outperforming Lascannons, though ideally you want MW inflicters as well. Against heavy armour, they’re very handy when there’s just 2W left, which I’m finding to be not that rare a situation when Krak or LC are doing the heavy lifting. Both Havoc squads tend to attract a lot of fire, so they must be registering as credible threats

I ran a landraider during the fate of Konor and that's how I lost every mission. Haha.

 lindsay40k wrote:
The Autocannons aren’t bad. They outperform HBs against Primaris and Terminators, and if there’s Storm Shields they outperform even heavier stuff. They’re adequate against Thunderwolves as well - again, outperforming Lascannons, though ideally you want MW inflicters as well. Against heavy armour, they’re very handy when there’s just 2W left, which I’m finding to be not that rare a situation when Krak or LC are doing the heavy lifting. Both Havoc squads tend to attract a lot of fire, so they must be registering as credible threats

Autocannons definitely have a solid niche in that area, but let's not forget that, if Necron vehicles become good with the codex, they'll have a role against those as well.

saint_red wrote:
Knights seem really overcosted this edition. I saw some mathhammer on reddit a couple weeks ago and it said the Atrapos was the only one that was points efficient. The issue is that it is only good again high toughness multi wound models and other titanic units, so if you come up against a horde or infantry heavy list you are wasting 550 points. It does absolutely melt superheavies though. It can easily kill a baneblade variant in a single turn.

This is a good thing, and not that they're overcosted. They're simply no longer autoincludes. Knights serve the purpose of tanking the field, absorbing incoming fire and most importantly surviving fairly well to later turns. If your knight lasts the whole game then you got 5-7 turns of shooting out of it. More than most tanks or infantry can claim.

And if doesn't survive, you just soaked up whatever firepower would have crushed the rest of your army in a game of counter matchups. Magnus, for all he is praised as being a godlike figure, routinely drops turn 1 to dedicated focus fire. He has to be positioned and deployed carefully to come in as reinforcements or hit their flanks rather than leading the charge front and center and getting shot to shreds. And this is a guy who can have a 3++ invuln that rerolls 1s.

This edition feels much better balanced than when players simply took 5 knights and called that a list. THOSE knights were undercosted. Wraithknights were horribly underpriced too. Now that their price is actually fair it seems weak when it's really not. They are still resistant to infantry fire and make excellent assassins of all things big and large.

 lindsay40k wrote:

fishwaffle2232 wrote:
What do people think about havocs vs chosen? Im looking at my current AL list which has two units of chosen with plasma guns to fill out a vanguard detachment. But im wondering if i would be better off going for for the spearhead and taking 2 units of havocs and a unit of oblits instead.

How are people loading out their havocs and how have they been pefroming?

Plasma squads are going to get fairly up close, I find they benefit from Chosen’s 2A & extra weapon slot. Playing Power Levels, I’ve got a combi-plasma squad in the works; it’s an extra Overwatch hit or two.

Spearhead with autocannon Havocs, Missile Launcher Havocs, Lord and Oblits is the first thing I write in nearly every list, and probably will remain so until I get four Lascannon to replace the Missiles.

Already having a minimal Spearhead also means that the Chosen help fill out a Vanguard; if I were taking two Plasma squads and only had one Elite and one HS choice, it’d probably come down to army budgeting whether I fielded them as Havocs or Chosen.

Thanks for the response. Interesting to hear how well autocannons are working. I had been thinking 2 las cannons, autocannon and missile launcher in one squad of havocs that will sit back (ideally in cover) and make use of the -1 to hit. Depending on how my list comes together, ill probably take another havoc squad with plasmas that will, as you mentioned, be positioned closer to the enemy ( probably using forward operatives).

It will be interesting to see how valuable the extra attack and leadership of the chosen is.

Im hoping adding in the extra threat of the heavy havoc team will take some fire away from my helbrute which will be running as a gun platform with lascannon and missiles.

May I ask how successful your list has been? Ive been really impreesed with chaos so far.

I've gotten some work done with my Havoc squad with 3 AC and a Lascannon. Ideally I'd want more Lascannons, but those are the models I have. I'd run a squad of 4 AC and a squad of 4 Las if I had them.

fishwaffle2232 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

fishwaffle2232 wrote:
What do people think about havocs vs chosen? Im looking at my current AL list which has two units of chosen with plasma guns to fill out a vanguard detachment. But im wondering if i would be better off going for for the spearhead and taking 2 units of havocs and a unit of oblits instead.

How are people loading out their havocs and how have they been pefroming?

Plasma squads are going to get fairly up close, I find they benefit from Chosen’s 2A & extra weapon slot. Playing Power Levels, I’ve got a combi-plasma squad in the works; it’s an extra Overwatch hit or two.

Spearhead with autocannon Havocs, Missile Launcher Havocs, Lord and Oblits is the first thing I write in nearly every list, and probably will remain so until I get four Lascannon to replace the Missiles.

Already having a minimal Spearhead also means that the Chosen help fill out a Vanguard; if I were taking two Plasma squads and only had one Elite and one HS choice, it’d probably come down to army budgeting whether I fielded them as Havocs or Chosen.

Thanks for the response. Interesting to hear how well autocannons are working. I had been thinking 2 las cannons, autocannon and missile launcher in one squad of havocs that will sit back (ideally in cover) and make use of the -1 to hit. Depending on how my list comes together, ill probably take another havoc squad with plasmas that will, as you mentioned, be positioned closer to the enemy ( probably using forward operatives).

It will be interesting to see how valuable the extra attack and leadership of the chosen is.

Im hoping adding in the extra threat of the heavy havoc team will take some fire away from my helbrute which will be running as a gun platform with lascannon and missiles.

May I ask how successful your list has been? Ive been really impreesed with chaos so far.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Helbrute draws fire from the Havocs! Since they got Fire Frenzy, nobody seems to want to leave my HBs standing, and the all-or-nothing elimination of the threat they pose seems to draw S6-8 shots to finish them off rather than get started killing a squad. When I take one, I’m more inclined to take two flame fists and hide from LOS as a counter-attack unit.

As for my list... it’s doing well, since I dropped the Land Raider points sink. (I’ve got a Spartan to build, and paying +2PL for +4W, +4 Lascannons, and +15 capacity, it looks *much* more helpful.) Two Havoc squads with a Lord and Cultist screen are doing a fine job as a firebase, last big game they were top priority targets for a Knight and a Hierodule - and in small games they perform fantastically.

Oh, and if I were playing points rather than PL, I *might* be more interested in plasma Havocs.

The immediate focus fire on helbrutes is why I don’t mind running them with plasma cannon/missile launcher. A wound or two doesn’t mean much when they’re going to get hit by every high damage attack the enemy can throw at them. Go all out with fire frenzy, eat some mortal wounds, and hope you go crazy and get another round of shooting before you get blown up on their turn.

Hmm. My Space Wolf regular opponent only has Fenrisian Wolves for screening... that might be a good way to either cripple a squad of Astartes, or influence where she puts the puppers.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


There's definitely a psychological value to having all three of those concurrently. I'm sure any opponent will feel a degree of demoralization knowing even if they put everything they've got into removing one super threat vector, that there are still two more.

Incidentally, my wife did lose that game where she offed the Fire Raptor... she was just really proud of having done so with how much I had been talking up the model in the weeks before BfS. :-p I'm pretty sure we didn't meet (you'd remember me... I was the one person in a wheelchair... I kind of stick out), but I did see your army at some point on a board, and it looked beautiful.

Tbh I'm thinking less demoralization and more that even if you do take down 1 on the first turn (which unless it's the Fire Raptor is a pretty big if for most armies), then the other 2 get you. Let alone if I can go first, which with 3 big drops shouldn't be an issue a decent amount of the time.

I do recall seeing you but I didn't catch what you were playing at the time of the event. First GT and I got to play against 2 bracket generals, one of whom was the battlemaster, and that was all in the first 3 rounds! Was an amazing experience though and I'm still kicking myself for making the mistake that lost me the game vs Gonyo. But you live and you learn. And then you practice more.

Only thing I don't like a ton about my current iteration of the list is that Ahriman on a disc can be sniped (and he can't deep strike IIRC). But I think with the guard meta shifting more towards tanks, those supporting characters will be less of a threat, and therefore snipers will be less prevalent. Plus Ahriman isn't exactly a pushover like a commissar.

I think Obliterators are much better than autocannon havocs. They avoid alpha strikes, can be positioned well. And at their worst dice rolls, they are equal to autocannon shots and at their best, they are far better than autocannon shots. And you get 12 shots from a squad compared to 8 from a havoc squad.

I feel that I would always find the points to have an obliterator squad over a havoc squad with autocannons.

Land Raiders are a bit too pricey for their points. And people are bringing a lot of ranged firepower these days. So Land Raiders don't last very long.

I just got gifted some CSM for 40k, and I have no idea what to grab next for 2000 points. Does anyone have any recommendations?

I got:
2 Helbrutes
20 Csm
6 chosen
6 bikers
5 ravens
5 possessed
1 Chaos Lord

As a Necron main, Terminators look fun. A list with a lot of deepstriking in general sounds pretty fun. Any help would be appreciated.

Werekill wrote:
I just got gifted some CSM for 40k, and I have no idea what to grab next for 2000 points. Does anyone have any recommendations?

I got:
2 Helbrutes
20 Csm
6 chosen
6 bikers
5 ravens
5 possessed
1 Chaos Lord

As a Necron main, Terminators look fun. A list with a lot of deepstriking in general sounds pretty fun. Any help would be appreciated.

It would help if we had an idea of these models’ loadouts! Also, would those ravens be Raptors? Some general points:

- Terminators are absolutely a good call, if that Lord is himself a Terminator then a deep strike force with overcharged Plasma Guns will be solid.
- Obliterators are also fantastic deep strikers.
- if you’ve got a Forgeworld budget (or really good conversion skills), deep strike lists absolutely love Kharybdis Assault Claws. (Dreadclaws can be readily kitbashed from Tyrannocytes but aren’t as efficient.)
- Your Possessed need transport and ideally larger unit size than minimum. Likewise the Chosen, they want to do Plasma drivebys or have the mobility to get their power weapons into play.
- Cultists are one of the best units we have, I would absolutely recommend several dozen for screening. We have a Stratagem that lets us revive every dead member of an extant unit and then outflank with them - a useful way to get cheap and plentiful ObSec units to rendezvous with deep insertion units.
- CSM are generally considered weak and best used to fill out Chosen or Havoc squads.
- Havocs, Noise Marines (usually want a transport) and Berzerkers (always want a transport) are really good.
- 2000 points suggests two or three Detachments, which in turn suggests three to five HQ. A Daemon Prince with Wings is a solid addition, especially when you’re going mobile. Unless you’re going World Eaters, a Sorcerer would be great - CSM have some brilliant spells. (There’s things to be said for putting one on a Steed of Slaanesh or bike.) A Dark Apostle is a great addition to shock troops like Possessed and (presumably) melee Chosen, and if you’ve got the points maybe an Exalted Champion as well.
- If you go Alpha Legion, you don’t need as many Transports as you can pay CPs to have infantry infiltrate, adding even more deep strike style drops.
- Possessed jumping out of a drop pod with a Sorcerer casting a god-specific spell on them makes for an interesting Daemon summoning point, which adds flexibility and even more deep strikes. Though I must add that this is gimmicky, if you roll well and get a KoS or GUO then it’s likely not going to be punching anything until turn three, by which point another Plasma Chosen squad could have fired dozens of S8 shots. If you fancy Word Bearers, it’s the main offensive use for our unique Stratagem, but generally you’ll find yourself thinking ‘hang on, I could have had nine more Obliterators on turn one’.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think Obliterators are much better than autocannon havocs. They avoid alpha strikes, can be positioned well. And at their worst dice rolls, they are equal to autocannon shots and at their best, they are far better than autocannon shots. And you get 12 shots from a squad compared to 8 from a havoc squad.

I feel that I would always find the points to have an obliterator squad over a havoc squad with autocannons.

Land Raiders are a bit too pricey for their points. And people are bringing a lot of ranged firepower these days. So Land Raiders don't last very long.

I take Autocannon Havocs to 90% of my games and I absolutely agree that Obliterators are better! Though if I had a second Oblit unit, I’d probably still take both rather than switch out for them. AC Havocs have a different role, they may have less firepower but they can take three mortal wounds without any loss of effectiveness, don’t need to get as close and expose themselves to Smites, and they add to the mass of bodies in a firebase parked on an objective or two.

Another thing to remember is that Obliterators are big fire magnets once they land. 195 points for them makes them easy to kill, whereas you're basically camping the Autocannon Havocs in cover and with maybe a few meat shields for those number of wounds and a 2+. They're definitely doing different things.

The Havocs can also sit in a Rhino T1 if you're that afraid of Alpha Strike. You're not gonna do it but the option exists.

You can put oblits in cover too. Their biggest benefit over the havocs is that they can deep strike in, making them literally immune to a counter-offensive. Havocs can get shot off the board before they're able to fire.

Obliterators are substantially more durable but their range is shorter. They also do more damage on average, for what it's worth. But of course, they're more expensive.

The oblits also can benefit from the changeling if you're doing tzeentch, making them -2 to hit (but sacrificing their shoot twice ability).

TLDR: I'd get 3 squads of oblits before I thought about a single squad of havocs. They just do so much work.

You can throw the Obliterators in cover too, but keep in mind they're more likely to get charged somehow to be put out of commission, assuming circumstances allow it of course.

Huh. I was going to note that Havocs count towards the part of your army that’s deployed on the table at the start, but now I can’t find where it’s stated that you have to deploy a minimum proportion on the table at the start. Obviously you need enough to not get tabled if your opponent goes first, but do I misremember that need for a quota?

Even if there’s no minimum deployment, you’re usually going to have something to defend. If there’s an objective in your DZ in a tall ruin, Havocs do have clear advantages over Oblits for rooftop guard duty. Also, the bigger the table, the more diminishing the long-term returns of mid-ranged super guns.

Thanks Lindsay40k! That is some fantastic advice, it will help a ton.

Unfortunately I don't really know the loadouts, thanks to being unfamiliar with CSM in general right now. Also yes it was Raptors, lol. My phone auto corrected, apologies.

But Terminators and Obliterators seem pretty cool! It looks like I'll be grabbing those and a Daemon Prince when I can. My main concern is that I'm a bit intimidated of the loadouts; as a Necron player, I'm used to not having many weapon choices per model. What would you recommend for the Terminators, and how many should I grab? 10?

In addition, I'm a bit confused by what you meant by "filling chosen or havoc squads" with the Marines. Does this mean you can usually get away with using Marines as Chosen proxies?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Huh. I was going to note that Havocs count towards the part of your army that’s deployed on the table at the start, but now I can’t find where it’s stated that you have to deploy a minimum proportion on the table at the start. Obviously you need enough to not get tabled if your opponent goes first, but do I misremember that need for a quota?

For matched play p215 Tacctica Reserves requires you to deploy at least 50% of your units on the battlefield

Page 215 of the BRB under Tactical Reserves, i.e. 50% or more on the table at the start of the game.

Another thing to consider in the Havocs v Obliterators argument: Havocs with Lascannons can sit in an Chaos Bastion and control large parts of the board. Obliterators cannot, their guns don't shoot far enough.

Arkaine suggested this a while ago, and I thought 200 points for the Bastion was too much. But when you think about it, you are pretty much guaranteeing the Hacovs are immune from alpha strike / first turn. The Bastion has 20 wounds, which is pretty tough. Plus you can take more guns on top of it.

Werekill wrote:
Thanks Lindsay40k! That is some fantastic advice, it will help a ton.

Unfortunately I don't really know the loadouts, thanks to being unfamiliar with CSM in general right now. Also yes it was Raptors, lol. My phone auto corrected, apologies.

But Terminators and Obliterators seem pretty cool! It looks like I'll be grabbing those and a Daemon Prince when I can. My main concern is that I'm a bit intimidated of the loadouts; as a Necron player, I'm used to not having many weapon choices per model. What would you recommend for the Terminators, and how many should I grab? 10?

In addition, I'm a bit confused by what you meant by "filling chosen or havoc squads" with the Marines. Does this mean you can usually get away with using Marines as Chosen proxies?

Terminators love combi-plasma. The kit doesn't contain any, but snipping a barrel off of a combi-bolter and replacing with a plasma pistol does the trick. Reaper isn't terrible but IMO Plasma saturation is a bit better. If your Legion allows it, Mark of Slaanesh is fantastic as you can double your firepower. Five is a potent unit, ten can sometimes kill so much stuff with their first salvo there's no targets for an Endless Cacophony!

A CSM wears power armour and carries a boltgun or chainsword, a Chosen wears power armour and carries a boltgun or chainsword. As long as your opponent's clear what the unit is, a few troopers being WYSIWYG but not particularly ornate doesn't matter. (Also, there *is* no Chosen set on the shelves, so there's few alternatives.)

If you are playing a Legion (rather than Renegades) you can use 30k models for Chosen and spice it up a bit to be more chaosy. The old armour really suits their fluff of being the old guard of the Legions.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I've gotten some work done with my Havoc squad with 3 AC and a Lascannon. Ideally I'd want more Lascannons, but those are the models I have. I'd run a squad of 4 AC and a squad of 4 Las if I had them.

I use lots o Lascannons!

Had my first game against Death Guard today, it’s set me off thinking how I’m going to use my DI stuff with my Word Bearers. This came to mind:

BATTALION - 3CP
Plaguecaster: Putrescent Vitality, Miasma of Pestilence - 6
Typhus: Blades Of Putrefaction, Gift of Contagion - 9
40 Cultists - 12
10 Poxwalkers - 3
7 Plague Marines: 3 Plasma Guns, Power Fist - 10
Rhino: Havoc Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter - 4
44

VANGUARD - 1CP
Chaos Lord: Combi Plasma, Balesword - 5
Tallyman - 4
Helbrute: Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher - 7
Contemptor: two Butcher Cannon - 10
26

I usually play three ways against Tyranids and Space Wolves.

Typhus deploys in Teleportarium. Characters get in Rhino with Plague Marines. Poxwalkers deploy out of sight and within 7” of the Cultist blob.

Dreads, Lord and PMs stomp off to shoot up Space Wolves. The Horde heads off for the middle of the table, which is always Genestealer Central. Bring it on! Flies and Walking Dead make Poxwalkers unkillable, whilst Cultists go and banzai charge themselves to death, maintaining a conga line to the Poxwalkers to spawn a new horde. Typhus drops in and supercharges the horde, which now hits on 4+ with Tallyman rerolls and with VOTLW wounds most units on a 2+. As long as they get a few buffs on them, they’ll probably roll over most units in their path. I’ll try to keep a few Cultists alive, for recycling the whole lot and do it all over again

Gonna have to bring Lascannons to take out tarpit vehicles - probably a Spartan party van. If a load of Whirlwinds and Biovores turn up, might have to protect the initial seeding Poxwalkers...

I may cut this all back. Typhus might be overkill, and I don’t like taking characters more senior than my WB Warlord. I’m mainly taking the dreads because they’re there, and ignoring the -1 to hit for moving... might drop them, the Lord, and give the PMs Blight Launchers. When I take an odd unit for synergy, I get drawn towards filling out a detachment

 lindsay40k wrote:


Terminators love combi-plasma. The kit doesn't contain any, but snipping a barrel off of a combi-bolter and replacing with a plasma pistol does the trick. Reaper isn't terrible but IMO Plasma saturation is a bit better. If your Legion allows it, Mark of Slaanesh is fantastic as you can double your firepower. Five is a potent unit, ten can sometimes kill so much stuff with their first salvo there's no targets for an Endless Cacophony!

A CSM wears power armour and carries a boltgun or chainsword, a Chosen wears power armour and carries a boltgun or chainsword. As long as your opponent's clear what the unit is, a few troopers being WYSIWYG but not particularly ornate doesn't matter. (Also, there *is* no Chosen set on the shelves, so there's few alternatives.)

Awesome! I'm actually in the process of working out a deal for some used Terminators, 10 of them with a Terminator Lord. It also will come with a Rhino, which is awesome. In addition, I'm trading old Xwing stuff for another deal, a Dark Vengeance set with a Rhino and sprue of marines. I'm pretty excited to try out all of this stuff!

Ah, gotcha on the Chosen. Luckily my local shop is pretty easygoing on WYSIWYG so that's a good thing. I'll be getting six more chosen from the above deal too, so I guess the Rhinos should go with the two Chosen squads I'll have? That seems solid. Then with Alpha Legion I can drop in the Helbrutes, plus I can grab some Obliterators.

All in all, I'm super excited to try Chaos. I love Necrons and won't sell them, but they are just terrible right now.