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 techsoldaten wrote:
Interesting question. But for Conscript spam, good horde lists have seemed rare in 8th edition. There's too many things that are good at shooting up the chaff.

I'm sorry, what? Razorwing Flocks, Brimstone Horrors, Ork Boyz, and now with the Nid codex Genestealers and gaunts have shown up at top tables. All of the math I've seen indicates that hordes are a massive problem because any "anti-horde" is more efficient against MEQ targets.

Yeah. I suggested flamers but nobody seems to think they are a good idea at all. Right now, there is no anti-hoard unit or weapon because flamers seem to be too limited.

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Chosen, 5 Flamers, Combi Flamer. About 200 points.

15 Marines, stock. About 200 points.

At 24":
10 Chosen get 5 shots, 3.33 hits.
15 Marines get 15 shots for 10 hits.
Clear win to the stock Marines, by 300%.

At 12":
10 Chosen get 10 shots, 6.66 hits.
15 Marines get 30 shots, 20 hits.
Clear win to the stock Marines, by 300%.

At 8":
10 Chosen get 8 shots on 3+ (5.33 hits), 2 shots at 4+ (1 hit), and 6d6 auto hits (21 hits) for 27.33 total.
15 Marines get 30 shots, 20 hits.
Clear win to the Chosen, by 137%.

The Marines are WILDLY more effective at anything past 8", while still having more durability. Chosen are more effective within 8"... But not by a ton. The only thing that's really nice about the Flamer Chosen is their Overwatch.

However based off how you created the squads, we forget one thing...
Why am I bothering with 10 man Chosen squads?

Our anti-horde:
- TS: Flamer Rubricae in Rhinos, Tzaangor horde fight
- DG: Poxwalkers delivered in Rhinos and given psychic, Stratagem, and/or Typhus buffs, now it’s your horde. Don’t forget to place your new models so as to prevent fall back moves
- Everyone else: Flamer Raptors, especially with Icon of Despair, will cut down some chaff and add Morale pressure, good enough for casual play
- WE: Berzerkers, or if you really have to Combi-Flamer Chosen in Rhinos
- Everyone else: why haven’t you already got a load of Noise Marines, they’re like the Genestealers of Chaos
- Everyone: Contemptor or Leviathan with Butcher Cannon will add to the Morale pressure on hordes, maybe force some CP expenditure, Soulburner on its Claw and you’ve got a great multi-purpose stomper
- Everyone: Chaos Spawn are cheap and effective at eating Overwatch and tangoing with weak masses, will also add Morale pressure

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Interesting question. But for Conscript spam, good horde lists have seemed rare in 8th edition. There's too many things that are good at shooting up the chaff.

I'm sorry, what? Razorwing Flocks, Brimstone Horrors, Ork Boyz, and now with the Nid codex Genestealers and gaunts have shown up at top tables. All of the math I've seen indicates that hordes are a massive problem because any "anti-horde" is more efficient against MEQ targets.

I said "good" horde lists have been rare in 8th edition. Apologies if that was ambiguous, I might be setting the bar too high with pre-Codex Conscript spam.

Those lists were very good. There were some games where my armies were facing 240+ shots at mid-range and 80+ attacks in assault per unit. It turned me off Berzerkers entirely.

Orks, Genestealers - they don't terrify me the same way. Haven't played against the new Nid Codex, maybe I need to rethink that.

I’ve just spotted a possibly interesting gimmick: a Word Bearer Daemon Prince can have Voice of Lorgar for +3” aura range, and their re-roll 1’s aura applies to all <DEITY> DAEMON units.

So. That enlarged footprint could buff ANY Legion’s Obliterators, Forge/Maulerfiends, Decimators, Blood Slaughterers, Lords Of Skulls, Heldrakes, Defilers, Possessed, Warp Talons, Kytans, Brass Scorpions, Plagueburst Crawlers, Bloat-Drones, Blight-Haulers, Steed riders, Mutilators...

Very interesting for an Epidemius list. Which of those listed units has interesting Legion trait benefits?

 lindsay40k wrote:
I’ve just spotted a possibly interesting gimmick: a Word Bearer Daemon Prince can have Voice of Lorgar for +3” aura range, and their re-roll 1’s aura applies to all <DEITY> DAEMON units.

So. That enlarged footprint could buff ANY Legion’s Obliterators, Forge/Maulerfiends, Decimators, Blood Slaughterers, Lords Of Skulls, Heldrakes, Defilers, Possessed, Warp Talons, Kytans, Brass Scorpions, Plagueburst Crawlers, Bloat-Drones, Blight-Haulers, Steed riders, Mutilators...

Very interesting for an Epidemius list. Which of those listed units has interesting Legion trait benefits?

That .. isn't bad at all. My go to would be a Death Guard Prince for an Epi list, but that's not bad.

I think the biggest limiting factor on anti-horde is that Flamer drivebys are out. The 3” disembark from a Rhino adds some range but not enough, and a single unit of Raptor firefighters is only going to get near if you can Warptime them from DS.

We do have a unique tarpit in Fiends of Slaanesh. Add a decent melee tank and you can set up hordes for a Berzerkers charge. If three characters summon a Fiend 9” from a blob, a reroll gives us a solid chance at entanglement.

wow was down my club tonight testing my deathguard mate was using 3x3 units of obilts, 5 plasma termie and abbaddon for the re-rolls.... wow just wow first turn killed pred, defiler and my daemon prince!

like what,,,, not even seen this done in real life yet it was horrible was crippled first turn!

guess i'll know for next time not to bunch up

Ok.. fired raptor down from 250 to 190 base.. That's pretty good. Reaper battery down to 30 which makes it compare a lot better to the quad bolters. And before missile down to 30..
Wow that's a lot of points saved.

Dreadclaws went down from 200 points base cost to 130...are they a good transport method for zerkers now (for non-Alpha Legion players)?

Not sure they are worth it for zerkers but could be worth using for a melee Contemptor. The double chainclaw variant is now 48 points cheaper which brings the package to around 330 points depending on which guns you take on the Contemptor.

Otherwise there are a bunch of good changes in there, mostly in the Forgeworld section. Helforged Predators are now 5 points more than their vanilla counterparts, Sicarans got 65-70 points cheaper (their gun is free) and the Fire Raptor got cheaper as well. Plague marines will be pretty cost effective now too, I'm thinking taking a mix of blight launchers and bubotic axes is the way to go.

I think dread claws are now viable havoc delivery fspecial weapons. 10 meltas or 10 plasma should shore up a flank or take out an isolated character. Drop them with some terminators and voila

Hmm. I wonder if we’ll get commensurate Power Level adjustments? 7PL for Dreadclaws will free up a fair bit of power.

Sad to see they gave Reaper Battery a price cut, IMO they should have made it more powerful, still, good news for people trying to squeeze Fire Raptor in a list with two Primarchs though

 Latro_ wrote:
wow was down my club tonight testing my deathguard mate was using 3x3 units of obilts, 5 plasma termie and abbaddon for the re-rolls.... wow just wow first turn killed pred, defiler and my daemon prince!

like what,,,, not even seen this done in real life yet it was horrible was crippled first turn!

guess i'll know for next time not to bunch up

but abbadon re roll only oblys...unless he runs nornal termies and not DG termies


Automatically Appended Next Post:
better play Abbadon+9 oblys+5 chaos termies with plasma or Mortarion?

 blackmage wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
wow was down my club tonight testing my deathguard mate was using 3x3 units of obilts, 5 plasma termie and abbaddon for the re-rolls.... wow just wow first turn killed pred, defiler and my daemon prince!

like what,,,, not even seen this done in real life yet it was horrible was crippled first turn!

guess i'll know for next time not to bunch up

but abbadon re roll only oblys...unless he runs nornal termies and not DG termies


Automatically Appended Next Post:
better play Abbadon+9 oblys+5 chaos termies with plasma or Mortarion?

he had the black legion army, i was facing him with my deathguard! chaos vs chaos
insult is i took my obilts out (since 2007!) my dg list since, well dg cant directly take them

Hormagaunts are getting a good run at the moment. They jump out of a Trygon, and Swarmlord gives them a free move. Then, they use 12” of Pile In moves to run massive disruption. They don’t go for kills, they go for deep insertion mischief.

I think we might have a use for under-equipped Berzerkers who are deliberately aiming not to kill all of their victims on the charge, but rather envelop them and rip apart in the enemy turn. Or just run at some Devastators they didn’t even charge.

They forgot to update our terminators when they updated the loyalists :( they also still forgot to give us heresy era terminators too :( I feel like cataphractii terminators is a good compromise for not having access to storm shields. And that's why I will always play narrative/open

I am building up some alpha legion. Any reason you all don’t run chosen?

It seems like chosen equipped with plasma and infiltrated into rapid fire range gives you 10 plasma shots. 20 if you spend 2 cp. is this worth it or no.

 sennacherib wrote:
I am building up some alpha legion. Any reason you all don’t run chosen?

It seems like chosen equipped with plasma and infiltrated into rapid fire range gives you 10 plasma shots. 20 if you spend 2 cp. is this worth it or no.

Havocs do the same job for cheaper.

If you wanted an expensive gun carrier, Fallen might work better.

Fallen can't be alpha legion for the infiltration though, even if they are better at overcharging plasmas (rerolling 1s when not moving)
Tzeentch knows why fallen can't take basic options though. would have been SO easy to make fallen into an actual army, or at least one with the basic rhino/bike/etc loadout

Basically, speaking, havocs are better shooters than chosen though, yes.
And in CC, the list of things that outpreform chosen is long.

Chosen's appeal is only in the fact you can tool them up as you like, so if you play a campaign of sorts when you stick with the same unit but can change loadouts, they hold some value in the fact you can switch from shooty to CC loadouts on the same unit.
Can't see another case where they are not outright outclassed.

Thanks.
I guess I can build up a unit of havocs/chosen and use them for either role.

The one thing Chosen do "better" than anyone else is loading up on combi-weapons. Only reason to do that is the combi-bolter of course, which... might be worth it as anti-horde option? 2 squads gets you 40 S4AP0 shots, 24 hits, 14.4 wounds, 8.64 dead guardsmen. So... 180 points of Chosen to kill 34.56 points of GEQ's.

Anyone else feel like guardsmen should be 5 points? Because this crap makes me feel like guardsmen should be 5 points.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
2 squads gets you 40 S4AP0 shots, 24 hits, 14.4 wounds, 8.64 dead guardsmen. So... 180 points of Chosen to kill 34.56 points of GEQ's.

Your maths are wrong.

40 S4AP0 shots > 26.667 hits > 17.778 wounds > ~12 dead GEQ so 47.4 points. Still not great though.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The one thing Chosen do "better" than anyone else is loading up on combi-weapons. Only reason to do that is the combi-bolter of course, which... might be worth it as anti-horde option? 2 squads gets you 40 S4AP0 shots, 24 hits, 14.4 wounds, 8.64 dead guardsmen. So... 180 points of Chosen to kill 34.56 points of GEQ's.

Anyone else feel like guardsmen should be 5 points? Because this crap makes me feel like guardsmen should be 5 points.

Wolf Guard have us beat on that, actually. Combi-plasma, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, AND Jump Pack all round are legit. Cheaper than Chosen in a Dreadclaw, in PL games. (Likewise Sternguard, on the firepower front.)

Nothing wrong with combi-weapons in PL games, though. May as well have another OW hit or two. Combi-flamer is better against hordes than flamer, as well.

 Nym wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
2 squads gets you 40 S4AP0 shots, 24 hits, 14.4 wounds, 8.64 dead guardsmen. So... 180 points of Chosen to kill 34.56 points of GEQ's.

Your maths are wrong.

40 S4AP0 shots > 26.667 hits > 17.778 wounds > ~12 dead GEQ so 47.4 points. Still not great though.

Bleh, knew I should have left the math to somebody else. That's never been my strong suit lol.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
I am building up some alpha legion. Any reason you all don’t run chosen?

It seems like chosen equipped with plasma and infiltrated into rapid fire range gives you 10 plasma shots. 20 if you spend 2 cp. is this worth it or no.

Havocs do the same job for cheaper.

If you wanted an expensive gun carrier, Fallen might work better.

Well, sorta. Getting 5 weapons and a Combi is cheaper with Chosen I think. How much is it to get 10 Special Weapons and 2 Combi with Havocs?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
I am building up some alpha legion. Any reason you all don’t run chosen?

It seems like chosen equipped with plasma and infiltrated into rapid fire range gives you 10 plasma shots. 20 if you spend 2 cp. is this worth it or no.

Havocs do the same job for cheaper.

If you wanted an expensive gun carrier, Fallen might work better.

Well, sorta. Getting 5 weapons and a Combi is cheaper with Chosen I think. How much is it to get 10 Special Weapons and 2 Combi with Havocs?

Well, with a mark of slannesh and 2 cp you can either fire 20 plasma shots or 10 flamer shots depending on the load out with chosen. Then charge. A 5 man unit would be pretty cheap though it would be a throwaway. I guess havocs are cheaper though but retain 1 less special weapon and no extra attacks on the charge.

3 ppm for the extra attack and LD over havocs... My Plasma units are throw aways by nature (and 3 previous editions of suicidal behavior).

I might just infiltrate a Cult unit like Plague Marines with triple plasma for that price.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Nick-Wenker-1st-Salt-City-Gladiator-Games-2017.pdf

how is possible he's using a Dg DP? it's illegal list