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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...

That, and regeneration, and being allowed to heal off a Warpsmith, and Epidemius synergy.

The Warpsmith barely heals anything. I wouldn't exactly call it a great benefit.

Agreed. A better benefit would be taking a cheap Herald of nurgle (or summoning one in for cheap from a sit back chr) and using fleshy abundance on the forgefiend, assuming it also has mark of nurgle. That heals 2-4 wounds a turn with the auto heal taken into consideration. Heck have a warp smith be the summoner for the field, now you have a healing machine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...

That, and regeneration, and being allowed to heal off a Warpsmith, and Epidemius synergy.

The Warpsmith barely heals anything. I wouldn't exactly call it a great benefit.

True. I was disappointed in how little a Warpsmith does, actually. A meaty Stratagem would have been nice, after all Techmarines get one (if they’re manning a Thunderfire Cannon). Or perhaps a rebate on Daemonforge, Fire Frenzy, & Blasphemous Machines within a certain range. Ah, enough wishlisting

Fiend also gets 5++. Two close melta wounds and a random MW kills a Contemptor. FF takes almost twice as much AP-4 to bring down. I say all this as a big fan of Contemptors, by the way - can’t argue with a Butcher Cannon, Soulburner, and Chainfist, stuff your corpse-botherer Assault Cannon Razorbacks

Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ in melee, but yes the 1 wound per turn is a thing. Epidemius or Changeling synergy does exist but that bloody 4+ WS renders it worse than a Contemptor in every scenario in my eyes. Even with Daemonforge it is marginally better damage but it drains 1CP/turn. I feel like Forgefiends should be more scary to better meet their fluff and model power.

saint_red wrote:
Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ in melee, but yes the 1 wound per turn is a thing. Epidemius or Changeling synergy does exist but that bloody 4+ WS renders it worse than a Contemptor in every scenario in my eyes. Even with Daemonforge it is marginally better damage but it drains 1CP/turn. I feel like Forgefiends should be more scary to better meet their fluff and model power.

Forge/maulerfiend suck this edition. Replacing them with Leviathans. Idea I'm running with is that it's super hard to kill T8, 2+save, -1 hit alpha legion, bubblewrapped with regenerating cultists and it has some crazy firepower with 2 butcher cannons (16 shots per turn). I think running two or even three is pretty strong against most things.

Point wise I think that the double Butcher Decimator is better, it's 30 points less, he's got less wound but it 'will not degrade.
Regeneration and 5++ included, not to mention the awsome model that Decimator is

I love the Leviathan model so will get one at some stage. I really want the CSM daemon engines to be more prominent but for now it looks like the Deci is our best option there. Maybe next year's Chapter Approved..

Otherwise, is anybody using Plague Marines in their normal CSM list? I was thinking of getting myself a 10 man squad with double blight launchers and 3-4 axes to footslog about and make a nuisance of themselves with. Part of the reason is I want more cult marines in my Word Bearers force but I do think they'd be a pretty solid addition.

So, how about The Faithless?

Given that they use renegades tactics (advance and charge), and that their special dude (lord arkos) has an aura that adds +1 to both running and charging, it seems to me a foot+bike slugging horde of them isn't all that bad.

 BoomWolf wrote:
So, how about The Faithless?

Given that they use renegades tactics (advance and charge), and that their special dude (lord arkos) has an aura that adds +1 to both running and charging, it seems to me a foot+bike slugging horde of them isn't all that bad.

Warptime a huge horde up.. double advance. Arkos can infiltrate close. Could cover a lot of ground. Buff the horde with other stuff. .

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...

That, and regeneration, and being allowed to heal off a Warpsmith, and Epidemius synergy.

The Warpsmith barely heals anything. I wouldn't exactly call it a great benefit.

He averages 2 wounds healed which coupled with infernal regeneration bumps up to 3. I'd hardly consider healing 25% of it's starting wounds a turn with no penalty barely anything. It also doesn't hurt that warpsmiths are awesome buys for their points. You get 4w 2+ save on a character who also has a melta, flamer and ideally a combi melta AND his power axe and dendrites which is 95 pts. By comparison an infantry unit with melta combi melta power axe is 96... Characters are awesome this edition for nabing objectives out in the open since they can't be targeted if you position them correctly.

smegma_crunch wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ in melee, but yes the 1 wound per turn is a thing. Epidemius or Changeling synergy does exist but that bloody 4+ WS renders it worse than a Contemptor in every scenario in my eyes. Even with Daemonforge it is marginally better damage but it drains 1CP/turn. I feel like Forgefiends should be more scary to better meet their fluff and model power.

Forge/maulerfiend suck this edition. Replacing them with Leviathans. Idea I'm running with is that it's super hard to kill T8, 2+save, -1 hit alpha legion, bubblewrapped with regenerating cultists and it has some crazy firepower with 2 butcher cannons (16 shots per turn). I think running two or even three is pretty strong against most things.

I didnt think the Alpha Legion -1 trait would apply to the Leviathans, because it only applied to Infantry, Bikes, Hellbrutes, and Daemon Princes

Darksteve wrote:

smegma_crunch wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ in melee, but yes the 1 wound per turn is a thing. Epidemius or Changeling synergy does exist but that bloody 4+ WS renders it worse than a Contemptor in every scenario in my eyes. Even with Daemonforge it is marginally better damage but it drains 1CP/turn. I feel like Forgefiends should be more scary to better meet their fluff and model power.

Forge/maulerfiend suck this edition. Replacing them with Leviathans. Idea I'm running with is that it's super hard to kill T8, 2+save, -1 hit alpha legion, bubblewrapped with regenerating cultists and it has some crazy firepower with 2 butcher cannons (16 shots per turn). I think running two or even three is pretty strong against most things.

I didnt think the Alpha Legion -1 trait would apply to the Leviathans, because it only applied to Infantry, Bikes, Hellbrutes, and Daemon Princes

Many FW walkers got the HELLBRUTE keyword, and it can be a little tricky to tell if it is unit, or keyword when HELLBRUTE is mentioned. I had an opponent who used the double firing stratagem on his levi pretty often until was shown a response from GW saying it's the HELLBRUTE model.

So herres a question for you all. How to arm a word bearers terminator Lord?
Part of me does like the simplicity of combi plasma power fist (no mark)
Rest of the list im toying around with in my head is as follows
HQ
Chaos Lord in terminator armour
Dark Apostle Plasma Pistol Cursed Crozius
Exalted Champ Power Axe and Com I melta
Troops
10csm 2 plasmas combi plans Rhino
10 csm 2 meltaguns power fist combi melta on the champ 7 guys with bp chain sword icon of chaos Glory rhino
30 close combat cultists 2 flamers

Heavy support
Tri las pres
3 oblits slaanesh

Vanguard detachment
Sorceror with Force Axe
8 Possessed Khorne Icon of Wrath Rhino
5Chosen 4 Plasma Guns Combi plas on the champ rhino
Hell Brute with Twin Lascannon and Fist
Not got my codex on hand or chapter approved yet but Lord will be jumping in with the oblits sorceror will stick with the cultists and run up the board. Tri las pred sits at the back dark apostle and champ join the possessed in their rhino.

For LVO what is a model to use for renegade commander? I don't see the HQ on Forgeworld website.

Does it have to be from this model grouping?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-FR/Renegade-Militia-Command

That model is the official renegade commander.
But Renegades and heretics is more of a convert your own faction.

saint_red wrote:
Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...

 andysonic1 wrote:
Mutilators are looking mighty tasty at 41 PPM. That's a pretty big drop in points.

I really want Mutilators to be good but I'm not sure they will ever be. I think they need to have their datasheet changed because their damage is both low and unreliable right now. Their 4" move means if they fail their charge out of deepstrike they might not doing anything for the whole game.

Yeah I'd rather just run Warp Talons or Raptors.

That said, there's something to be said about the super minimal investment of 123 points. It isn't the cheapest Elite for a Brigade but the option is there.

With mark of nurgle you could also use fleshy abundance on them in a pinch. Not sure what other mark is worth it on them. Maybe they are worth it in a world eater detachment? Also remember to use a herald in conjunction to get there strength to a minimum of 7. Still not sure about these guys though, chaos is spoiled for choice with regard to elite assaulting units and most of them either hit harder or more often leaving these guys lost in the middle.

wow i totally overlooked chainfists at 14pts! my khorne army just gained like 32pts woo hoo

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Darksteve wrote:

smegma_crunch wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ in melee, but yes the 1 wound per turn is a thing. Epidemius or Changeling synergy does exist but that bloody 4+ WS renders it worse than a Contemptor in every scenario in my eyes. Even with Daemonforge it is marginally better damage but it drains 1CP/turn. I feel like Forgefiends should be more scary to better meet their fluff and model power.

Forge/maulerfiend suck this edition. Replacing them with Leviathans. Idea I'm running with is that it's super hard to kill T8, 2+save, -1 hit alpha legion, bubblewrapped with regenerating cultists and it has some crazy firepower with 2 butcher cannons (16 shots per turn). I think running two or even three is pretty strong against most things.

I didnt think the Alpha Legion -1 trait would apply to the Leviathans, because it only applied to Infantry, Bikes, Hellbrutes, and Daemon Princes

Many FW walkers got the HELLBRUTE keyword, and it can be a little tricky to tell if it is unit, or keyword when HELLBRUTE is mentioned. I had an opponent who used the double firing stratagem on his levi pretty often until was shown a response from GW saying it's the HELLBRUTE model.

Levi's,contemptors, etc.... Can use legion tactics as the rule uses the bold HELLBRUTE word as opposed to the non bold daemon prince word. Keywords are always represented in bold lettering

So, I've been revisiting the idea of a Brigade detachment of Chaos Marines. It's very doable at 2000 points given the fact that we can fill our Troops and Fast Attack slots very cheaply, leaving room to take strong HQs, Elites, and Heavy Support. I'm thinking that it may not be top-tier competitive, but it'll be fun for casual games and/or smaller less competitive tournament environments. Here's a list I threw together in Battlescribe:

I know this is not a competitive or optimized list, but I'm sure it's not a pushover either and will be fun to try out in a non-tournament setting. I'm probably going to end up matching it up against my friend's Genestealer Cult at some point. I could easily switch which Legion Trait the list has without changing it at all, other than swapping out the Fleshmetal Exoskeleton for the Elixir on the DP. If I ran it as Word Bearers, I could give the DP the Voice of Lorgar warlord trait, which could be pretty good. I'm also considering cutting some points here and there and running this list as Black Legion with Abaddon replacing the Dark Apostle. The trick there will be coming up with the rest of the points, but I'm sure I could figure it out. I'm sure that if optimized a Brigade could be very nasty, with all of those CP giving access to a lot of good stratagems.

I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.

My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.

The list I just posted is not optimized, as I said. Hence why it seems lackluster and unfocused. I would swap out certain units for better ones in an optimized list, starting with putting in more Cultists in place of the CSM squads. I might tweak it around a bit and post a meaner version later.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.

My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.

It has plenty of focus, a list doesn't need to spam the same 1 or 2 ideas or principles ad nauseum in order to be good. I have found in 8th that having a variety of units throws my opponents off way more. If I spam oblits or berserkers or X unit then they know exactly how to deal with my army as soon as they figure out how to tackle one of those units. Not saying spam is bad, it's just easy mode as a player. Instead of having to make all my units work and not worrying about losing one you just learn to use a different tool. It's way more entertaining for both parties as well unless your only idea of fun is getting a win. Not bashing that btw just making the point that for some players the destination is all they care about while for others its the hourny and yet for others it is both. I am in the both category, used to spam non stop in 5th and 6th then realized I got bored of my armies incredibly fast.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.

My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.

It has plenty of focus, a list doesn't need to spam the same 1 or 2 ideas or principles ad nauseum in order to be good. I have found in 8th that having a variety of units throws my opponents off way more. If I spam oblits or berserkers or X unit then they know exactly how to deal with my army as soon as they figure out how to tackle one of those units. Not saying spam is bad, it's just easy mode as a player. Instead of having to make all my units work and not worrying about losing one you just learn to use a different tool. It's way more entertaining for both parties as well unless your only idea of fun is getting a win. Not bashing that btw just making the point that for some players the destination is all they care about while for others its the hourny and yet for others it is both. I am in the both category, used to spam non stop in 5th and 6th then realized I got bored of my armies incredibly fast.

IOW: Throwing random stuff in a list is totally focused

No it isn't. Spam doesn't always equate focus. What you're thinking about is redundancy, which is handy but not always necessary.

However, the list doesn't HAVE a game plan.

Yeah, I love Brigades but we're not Tyranids, I wouldn't bother trying to make one at less than 150PL/3K, and even that's if I leave the Spartan and planes in the hangars. At 200PL/4K I'll give it a go.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.

My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.

It has plenty of focus, a list doesn't need to spam the same 1 or 2 ideas or principles ad nauseum in order to be good. I have found in 8th that having a variety of units throws my opponents off way more. If I spam oblits or berserkers or X unit then they know exactly how to deal with my army as soon as they figure out how to tackle one of those units. Not saying spam is bad, it's just easy mode as a player. Instead of having to make all my units work and not worrying about losing one you just learn to use a different tool. It's way more entertaining for both parties as well unless your only idea of fun is getting a win. Not bashing that btw just making the point that for some players the destination is all they care about while for others its the hourny and yet for others it is both. I am in the both category, used to spam non stop in 5th and 6th then realized I got bored of my armies incredibly fast.

IOW: Throwing random stuff in a list is totally focused

No it isn't. Spam doesn't always equate focus. What you're thinking about is redundancy, which is handy but not always necessary.

However, the list doesn't HAVE a game plan.

There is nothing randomly thrown in there. He filled out the required slots for a battalion and chose strong units each built with a purpose.

Spam IS a type of focus or I should say a way to achieve focus. Theres spamming units for a specific roll which is redundancy or macro focus. Then you can also focus solely on a task, like shooting or assault. Then there is micro focus which is making a unit loadout toward a specific purpose. This is what I am referring to. None of his units are loaded in a way to suggest they lack focus. For example a unit of havocs with a sergeant equipped with a power fist and half the unit carrying las canons and the other half with flamers, thats a unit lacking focus. An amry doesn't have to be all in on assault or all in on shooting to be good.

Lists don't have game plans, players do. I just punked every opponent at a tournament with a guard list that had seemingly random units on my list. My opponents laughed and didn't take my army as seriously as the other guard armies that just spammed cheapo infantry and basilisks. I had combat commanders and all my relics were weapons, they were shocked when I rook rolled through their lines. I had a specific strategy and idea on how to handle everything I faced. My army had strong shooting and strong assault coming from nearly ZERO spamed units aside from infantry squads fulfilling my troops.

His list has screeners, which I'd say is about the only real requirement of every list in 8th. Beyond that there are several ways to skin a cat. His list can definitely be made more lethal, for example the autocanons are not great and I'd rather take 3 lascanons then 4 auto canons, small things like that, but none of his unit choices are bad even mixed together. You also need to put his list into the context that it isn't meant to bash teeth in and table someone turn 1. So in that regard the only real nit pick, which is efficiency of loadouts, is made less omportant because of that.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to suggest, but your not explaining yourself here, your being vague. I am interested in what you think specifically makes his list unfocused*.

*optimal choices, spam, best loadout? etc etc...

I was messing around with some numbers on a 2k Iron warriors brigade.


Chaos Lord (Fearless Warlord Trait)
Chaos Lord
Exalted Champion

9 Berzekers (Icon Of Wrath)
Rhino

10 Berzekers (Icon Of Wrath)
Rhino

10 Berzekers (Icon Of Wrath)
Rhino

10 Cultists x 6

3 Chaos Bikers (Combi Bolter, MOS) x3

9 Havocs (4 Plasma Guns, MOS)
Rhino

10 Havocs (4 Plasma Guns, MOS)
Rhino

5 Havocs (4 Heavy Bolters, MOS)

One lord to keep cultists around a bit longer, one to lord to buff plasma and exalted champion to buff berzerkers.

No sorcerers or big blob of cultists is a bummer. Plasma guns and berzerkers with vets of the long war, endless cacophony / fury of khorne would have to deal with tanks/monsters. Not sure how feasible that is!

I feel like you should find a way to make one of those cultist units a big 40 man blob. You're not getting much out of the IW warlord trait with 10 man units and Tide of Traitors can be a huge boon.

I actually think Autocannons are a hidden gem, especially now that they are only 15 points. They have a different target priority than Lascannons for the most part. Lascannons want to engage big things like vehicles and monsters, whereas Autocannons want to shoot at 2-wound models, especially things like Terminators and Bikes. I think they could absolutely wreck a Primaris-heavy army since they negate their primary defensive advantage over normal Marines (2 wounds). Sure, Termies still get a good save, but every failed one is a dead guy.

I mainly included the Autocannons in my list because they are cheap and I actually have the models. I don't have enough Chaos Lascannon guys to run a full Havoc unit with them. The one I have is in a regular CSM squad, which I know are bad, but...eh.

The list I posted is proof of concept, and I do intend to come up with a more optimized version later. I'll post it in this thread when I do. One thing I am curious about, is which Legion makes the best brigade? My gut says Alpha Legion as they have the best stratagem and legion trait, but Iron Warriors can get fearless units easily thanks to their unique warlord trait, and Word Bearers' Voice of Lorgar trait is pretty solid in a list with lots of units spread around (they can all benefit from rerolling 1's).

I guess alpha legion as they get the complete package of having a great warlord trait, strategem and legion trait!

A single spawn instead of 3 CSM bikes saves you allot of points in the fast attack slots, but the bikes seem so much better to me. 3 bikes with a Combi Bolter is only 77pts now and puts out 16 bolter shots at rapid fire range and are really good at claiming objectives. I don’t really know about spawn.

Spawn won't push anything off an objective, but they'll hold up anything there long enough for your other units to get there. Bolters also aren't that great at the moment, you'd want to give your bikes special weapons to make them worth it. Remember that you can move 20 inches and then fire flamers with them.