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The vast majority of Imperium/Chaos vehicles are T7, the biggest non-titan exception being the leman russ. Xenos vehicles are largely T6.

orkswubwub wrote:
Totally right had to double check codex. No brass collar for me

I guess I just don't see the damage coming from sword being that high and the use is quite narrow as it essentially is best used against one character. You could tie something up in melee and pluck for 1 guaranteed damage (if you can hit on str 5).

Also doesn't the mace fall slightly flat against most vehicles with T8? I guess there are a handful of Vehcs at T7 but the +3 str doesn't seem to do it.

I don't think you're reading the murder sword right: Against the targeted character, it does 1 mortal wound PER HIT, instead of the normal damage. So on a lord, that's basically 4 guaranteed mortal wounds per combat phase (WS 2 with reroll), plus any extras you might get with false-emperor or warlord traits. If you can get 2 combat phases off against the target, not much will stand up to that no matter how tough they are (unless you're fighting some big monster or something). If you REALLY need the target to die, you can use the khorne-fight-twice stratagem and basically delete any (non primarch) infantry character.

After that, it's just a really good power sword.

Notwithstanding Ultramarines and their hit & run, if you're fighting a vehicle and really have to kill it it's probably because it's got a big punchy melee attack. That said all the relic weapons are pretty good, I thought of this as my main opponent is Space wolves and likes her dreads.

You are right I wasn't reading it right. So as long as the hit roll goes through. Not bad.

Anyone played the Minotaur Artillery Tank super-heavy in this edition?

Seems pretty knarly, even thought they shooting at 4+...

That tank + Magnus + Mortorian is right about half of a 2000pt list.

I am bringing that (except Macharius Heavy Vulcan instead of super heavy tank) to LVO so will let you know how it goes! My list:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745923.page#9733017

orkswubwub wrote:
I am bringing that (except Macharius Heavy Vulcan instead of super heavy tank) to LVO so will let you know how it goes! My list:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745923.page#9733017

Please do!

I'm waffling between the Vulcan and the Minotaur....

I did an xmas splurge and picked up the following contingent of Khorne - purely for fun/fluffy stuff.
Anything useful list/build wise?

Daemon prince
28 zerkers
30 bloodletters
6 bloodcrushers
2 chariot thingys (will likely proxy these as maulerfiends for fun)
2 hellbrutes
Lord
5 raptors
5 termies
3 rhinos
5 hounds
Kharn

How would one go about building a Bike-Heavy Renegades list?

 JNAProductions wrote:
How would one go about building a Bike-Heavy Renegades list?

I would build around their big benefits, so take assault weapons and a melee on the Champ. Flamers, combi flamers, and melta combi melta are all pretty overpriced though. You could skip the specials, go straight melee and try to max out bikes.

I play a bike list for my Loyalists and body count is always the big issue.

So would something like this be good?

 whembly wrote:
Anyone played the Minotaur Artillery Tank super-heavy in this edition?

Seems pretty knarly, even thought they shooting at 4+...

That tank + Magnus + Mortorian is right about half of a 2000pt list.

The tank isn't really all that hot, compare it to 2 earthshaker cannons, which are way cheaper, you get to roll 2d6 and choose the highest, and you can fire at 2 different targets.

Has anyone noticed how powerful 40-man MoS Cultist squads are with Tide of Traitors and Endless Cacophony?

I tabled someone tonight with 3 squads v Tyranids. Turns 3 - 5, moved up a Cultist squad, fired 80 times, then did it again. The last turn, I rolled 200 dice between them to wipe out the bugs.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Has anyone noticed how powerful 40-man MoS Cultist squads are with Tide of Traitors and Endless Cacophony?

I tabled someone tonight with 3 squads v Tyranids. Turns 3 - 5, moved up a Cultist squad, fired 80 times, then did it again. The last turn, I rolled 200 dice between them to wipe out the bugs.

I've noticed, but I don't have nearly enough models to run multiple 40-man blobs. I can barely field one that size with a few to spare. I personally think it's a waste to use Endless Cacophony on mere autoguns. Better to save that one for Obliterators, Noise Marines, Havocs, Terminators, or even Chosen. That said, it's not a waste to take a 40-man unit, or to mark them Slaanesh. Cast the Delightful Agonies power on them and suddenly they are actually able to save some wounds and really annoy your opponent.

I've kind of considered the same kind of thing, with 40 World Eaters cultists armed with pistol/CCW. 3 attacks each on the charge, and possibly swinging twice with the Khorne stratagem. Again, probably not worth the CP on those guys rather than Berzerkers or something, but if every cultist got to swing twice, it would be 240 attacks! Nothing short of a vehicle would survive that.

240 attacks.
120 hits.
Assuming T4 or T5, that's 40 wounds.
So, to survive, you need only about 8 wounds at a 2+.

So a squad of Termis would survive no problem.

and you forgot you can use VOTLW and preiscence on them so... btw compare terminators is a no sense, there are lot of saves at 3+ or worse, think what happen to Ig or orks or tyr, against the targets they are made for, 120 cultists got about 65-70 wounds at 12"....and didn't count a 2nd volley of shots.

Just made a little mobile app site for generating obliterator weapons if anyone wants to use it:

http://www.meltatotheface.com/oblits.php

thanks is useful

A unit of terms is orribly sub par against cultist, they only have ten wounds, you cannot recycle them and they have really low offensive output, their base combi bolter is 40 shot at 12’’, against a Meq they perform like a 40 cultist blob but they 30 points more....

I’ve been building a Poxwalkers farm list for use in small to medium games. Part of it is a large horde of Cultists, Warptimed right in the enemy’s face with plenty of Flamers, with a Poxwalkers unit ready to absorb the dead. Can’t ignore the Cultist horde, killing them makes the zombie attack worse. Giving them MoS opens up an EC to really put the pressure on.

Just played in an ITC tournament with my Chaos list. Ended up winning against a Necron vehicle-heavy list, but getting destroyed by a Tau commander spam list with like 50 shield drones and barely losing to a Harlequin/Ynnari list (by 2 points!). I won't go over the details, but here are my takeaways from it:
-Mortarion is pretty good, but he's also a big bullseye if you don't go first. In that second game he accomplished jack squat because he got reduced to 2 wounds before I got to take my first turn. He did good work in the other two games, especially the first, but I think my list would work better with different stuff instead.
-Obliterators were good in every game. They didn't get to shine in the second due to having nothing but drones to shoot, but in the other two games they did some work. In the third game they ended up very flat due to rolling a lot of 1's for damage, which kills their usefulness. Still, they are a must-take for CSM, I feel.
-Berzerkers are still a unit that internet wisdom says is amazeballs, but have yet to really perform for me. They get lots of attacks and can absolutely shred weaker models and hordes, but struggle to do much vs. vehicles. They put in some work in all three of my games, but not enough. I'm looking at replacing them with different stuff, but what?
-CSM characters should probably take jump packs or bikes all the time, or be Princes. They need to be able to react to any part of the battlefield quickly. My footslogging Sorcerer had some trouble getting much accomplished. In a gunline list with a bunch of Havocs and stuff he could put in work with Prescience, though, and be a backfield threat.

ow lawd i faced that commander spam list a while back, pretty frustrating to play against.

bet he did the whole running them in 3's and interlinked the drones?

Mortarion players: are you fielding or Summoning a couple of Nurgle Heralds to give him an extra D3W heal and +1 to wound, or what? I’d assume a bunch of Nurglings are a shoe-in?

 Latro_ wrote:
ow lawd i faced that commander spam list a while back, pretty frustrating to play against.

bet he did the whole running them in 3's and interlinked the drones?

Not quite; he ran 5 Coldstars and 5 Missile Commanders all with ATS. If I had gone first in that game, I probably could have won, but going 2nd just crippled me. I don't think my list was the problem there, as in the game vs. the Harlies I went second and still almost won. Just a bad matchup in that second game.

My best mate’s just got two boxes of Vanguard Veterans.

She’s going to build them as jump pack Wolf Guard with combi-Plasma, storm shield, and thunder hammer.

They come to twenty Power.

A pretty brutal hammer (oho) unit, but not invincible. Smites will get past 3++, quad heavy bolters will force her to fail it, Death Hex will kill it. Chaos Familiar may well enable a sorcerer to tag in whilst Njal shuts down the one that starts the game with DH.

Any other ideas on how to deal with this?

(I really hope she doesn’t do a second squad same but with combi Flamers)

 ZergSmasher wrote:
-Berzerkers are still a unit that internet wisdom says is amazeballs, but have yet to really perform for me. They get lots of attacks and can absolutely shred weaker models and hordes, but struggle to do much vs. vehicles. They put in some work in all three of my games, but not enough. I'm looking at replacing them with different stuff, but what?

How were you running your Berzerkers? Inside Rhinos with HQ support or running them up the board or drop pods?

darthryan wrote:
Personaly loving the idea of 2 or 3 forgefiends/ helbrutes sat in backfield shooting with a warpsmith fixing them. With the regaining 1 wound a turn on the fiends each turn and a smith fixing them i can see them being very hard to shift

Make them all mark of nurgle, and have that warp smith summon in a Herald of nurgle first turn with fleshy abundance. That's an additional d3 heals on those forgefiends for 70pts. And since it's summoned in you don't lose legion traits or the like. I have been running 2 forgefiends and a helldrake this way recently and really it works amazing for healing these guys, which for some reason means my opponents spend more time shooting at them and not my 3 rhinos full of beserkers driving up the board.... Lol.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
-Berzerkers are still a unit that internet wisdom says is amazeballs, but have yet to really perform for me. They get lots of attacks and can absolutely shred weaker models and hordes, but struggle to do much vs. vehicles. They put in some work in all three of my games, but not enough. I'm looking at replacing them with different stuff, but what?

How were you running your Berzerkers? Inside Rhinos with HQ support or running them up the board or drop pods?

I ran 2 9-man squads in Rhinos, armed with chainaxes/chainswords. I might do better if I gave the champions power fists or something, which would help kill vehicles, but honestly that's not their job anyway. In my list, my Obliterators and Morty were intended to engage vehicles.

To be fair, I may be expecting too much from my Berzerkers. I've had them kill squads of smaller things before, and they routinely strip wounds off of vehicles even if they don't kill them, so maybe they are doing their job. My opponents have been routinely lucky with their saves against them for sure though. For example, in my first outing with them, I took on some Sternguard and did like 9 or 10 wounds with the chainaxes, and my opponent saved all but 2 of them. That's just dice sometimes I guess.

My next planned Chaos list will have a large blob (15 guys) infiltrating forward. If I go second, I just hide them behind LOS-blocking terrain and hope for the best.

Last time I ran beserkers in huge numbers I took 3 squads of 20 on foot, Renegade chapter, with a dark apostle, a deamon prince, and a greater deamon of Khorne following. My opponent had taken a cc based nid army, mostly stealers and gaunts. It was a blood bath. I won that game but I think it's because once our forces hit each other I went first. I am not convinced that large blobs of beserkers are viable just running up the field, even with advance and charge. Probably alpha legion is the way to take them if you want to go that way so they can start right on top of an opponent.

I always give the champ a Power Fist. World Eater Zerker Champ fighting twice with a Power Fist is eight attacks. With an Apostle and Exalted nearby, those attacks are going to land. I've punched out Grand Master Dreads with those attacks and the following Chainaxe spam from the bois to finish the job or roll into a nearby squad. It allows your 5 man Zerker squad to scare a Knight while also being able to blend hordes. Berzerkers really are absurd right now when given proper re-roll support.

I'm on the fence about infiltrating them. Cultist infiltrating and shooting is always going to be better then charging into your opponent's full strength army. I believe Rhinos + HQ support are the better route because it is more flexible.