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abbadon is useful if you play lot of cultists so they are more reliable and deal lot more damage rerolling 1-2-3's, for oblys should be enough a Dp or a lord. If i play a Dp like above i dont know what to do with my Lord, seems redundant then.

 blackmage wrote:
abbadon is useful if you play lot of cultists so they are more reliable and deal lot more damage rerolling 1-2-3's, for oblys should be enough a Dp or a lord. If i play a Dp like above i dont know what to do with my Lord, seems redundant then.

Have you considered NOT deepstriking the pinks? You don't really have to, they shoot 18 inches within 2 turns they will essentially be chewing up whatever chaffe is in front. This would effectively save you 3 CP. Again, if you had infinite CP, sure deepstrike the pinks, I'm just not sure it is mandatory with a lower CP list. Bloodletters are a different story because they sit at 5++ and have to walk into charge range. This isn't necessarily the case for pinks.

Also totally agree with the prior poster, abaddon is good, but if you want to go bleeding edge competitive I am not sure he quite makes the cut - even with the morale benefit. He is literally only letting you reroll 1/6 more shots - which translates to even fewer than 1/6 more hits. So probably 1/12 shots more will hit each turn - this translates to < 3 dmg per turn (on a single oblit squad) assuming you are at 3 dmg. You will find a better benefit from prescience and funneling the extra points into other units (my opinion)

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I've actually been looking at making similar lists to an Obliterator Spam + Abigail, but I don't feel great about the fact the Legion Trait is so frickin lame.

Think about it this way, Abaddon is letting you re-roll 1s and 2s, which is really just not that big a deal. If you were hitting on a 4+ I think it makes a huge difference, but if you have a -1 to hit and roll a 3, Abaddon's not letting you re-roll that.

Don't get me wrong, he's a beast, he's great for babysitting Obliterators and beating up kids that try to push them off the jungle gym, but that's about it really. I think the Daemon Prince is bringing a lot more to the table.

I was trying to think of doing something where, thanks to his Commisar bubble, infiltrating Cultists with Alpha Legion and backed up by something with good firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yup. In 7ed, Possessed and Cultists and regular CSMs was viable.

You're lying to yourself if you believe that.

yes you could not ds horrors, fact is against some armies you need, they can stay too far away from you and overshoot, think about eldar reapers for example, pass 2 turn with 210 pts doing nothing is leathal,then ds force ur opponet to react immediatly to threat you dont give time to focus on horrors and wipe them out. 90 shots rerolling 1 to hit and wound with +1 to wound are scary. they cant stay unanswered too long, they can wreak havok

So has anyone tried building a list around renegades (not ig)

asides from bikes and talons i cant think of much.

(also side question can you advance a second time with warp speed?)

 Desubot wrote:
So has anyone tried building a list around renegades (not ig)

asides from bikes and talons i cant think of much.

(also side question can you advance a second time with warp speed?)

Dp's, jumppack lords also enjoy renegade chapter
i dont know what's warp speed

 Desubot wrote:
So has anyone tried building a list around renegades (not ig)

asides from bikes and talons i cant think of much.

(also side question can you advance a second time with warp speed?)

Yes you can advance again with warp time it's another move, Hellbrute can be nasty too in renegades with warptime for exemple 8 + d6 + 8 + d6 so around 23 " plus charge distance.

oh warp time yes

orkswubwub wrote:
Also totally agree with the prior poster, abaddon is good, but if you want to go bleeding edge competitive I am not sure he quite makes the cut - even with the morale benefit. He is literally only letting you reroll 1/6 more shots - which translates to even fewer than 1/6 more hits. So probably 1/12 shots more will hit each turn - this translates to < 3 dmg per turn (on a single oblit squad) assuming you are at 3 dmg. You will find a better benefit from prescience and funneling the extra points into other units (my opinion)

I'm not entirely convinced that Abaddon is not competitive. He gives Fearless, rerolls to hit for anything Black Legion, grants 2 CP just for showing up, and is a mini-Primarch in terms of combat ability. Now, taking a full Black Legion army just to use him is not a good idea in competitive play, but I could see him doing some work in soup lists. I've got a friend who ran him at LVO and barely missed the top 8 (lost a game by 1 point to the guy who ended up winning it all).

I'm strongly considering him for my Adepticon list in a detachment with 3 units of Oblits (who will also be Black Legion because rerolls). Having that detachment be pure Black Legion will give him DttFE on a 5+, which will hurt Imperial players if Abby gets into combat with them.

In fact, since I posted this list in the Army Lists subforum and got no replies, I'll post it here as well:

Reroll to hits is ridiculously good. It takes you from 66.6% chance to hit to 88.8%, which is an increase of 33.3%. If yoy keep him near 3 squads of oblits he is basically giving you a fourth one.

It's true that you could just take a fourth squad instead for slightly less point but he also gives CP, the fearless aura, is a close combat beast and uses an HQ slot rather than Heavy, which can be relevant for filling out detachments.

I would run him myself but I hate the damn model.

Abaddon is the reason you play Black Legion. Could not tell you the mathhammer on the rerolls, but it has a significant impact on all my games.

Is he truly not considered competitive? My impression was primarchs overshadow him enough that no one was really trying.

saint_red wrote:
Reroll to hits is ridiculously good. It takes you from 66.6% chance to hit to 88.8%, which is an increase of 33.3%. If yoy keep him near 3 squads of oblits he is basically giving you a fourth one.

It's true that you could just take a fourth squad instead for slightly less point but he also gives CP, the fearless aura, is a close combat beast and uses an HQ slot rather than Heavy, which can be relevant for filling out detachments.

I would run him myself but I hate the damn model.

Just make your model. I haven't bought a single actual HQ model from GW once and just male my own from bitz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well okay ONCE and it was one of the Necron lords and that's it.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
Also totally agree with the prior poster, abaddon is good, but if you want to go bleeding edge competitive I am not sure he quite makes the cut - even with the morale benefit. He is literally only letting you reroll 1/6 more shots - which translates to even fewer than 1/6 more hits. So probably 1/12 shots more will hit each turn - this translates to < 3 dmg per turn (on a single oblit squad) assuming you are at 3 dmg. You will find a better benefit from prescience and funneling the extra points into other units (my opinion)

I'm not entirely convinced that Abaddon is not competitive. He gives Fearless, rerolls to hit for anything Black Legion, grants 2 CP just for showing up, and is a mini-Primarch in terms of combat ability. Now, taking a full Black Legion army just to use him is not a good idea in competitive play, but I could see him doing some work in soup lists. I've got a friend who ran him at LVO and barely missed the top 8 (lost a game by 1 point to the guy who ended up winning it all).

I'm strongly considering him for my Adepticon list in a detachment with 3 units of Oblits (who will also be Black Legion because rerolls). Having that detachment be pure Black Legion will give him DttFE on a 5+, which will hurt Imperial players if Abby gets into combat with them.

In fact, since I posted this list in the Army Lists subforum and got no replies, I'll post it here as well:

Spoiler:

Detachment 1: Battalion Detachment
HQ:
Sorcerer: Force Sword, Mark of Slaanesh <Alpha Legion>
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Force Stave, Mark of Slaanesh <Alpha Legion>
Troops:
2x 3 Nurglings
37 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh <Alpha Legion>
Detachment 2: Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Abaddon the Despoiler
Heavy Support:
3x 3 Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh <Black Legion>
Detachment 3: Vanguard Detachment
HQ:
Dark Apostle: Mark of Khorne, The Black Mace <Alpha Legion>
Elites:
2x 9 Berzerkers: 9x Chainsword/Chainaxe, Icon of Wrath <Alpha Legion>
8 Noise Marines: 8x Sonic Blaster <Alpha Legion>
Dedicated Transport:
2x Chaos Rhino <Alpha Legion>
Total 1997 points, 15 units, 11 drops, 10 CP (3 from Battleforged, 3 from Battalion, 1 from Spearhead, 1 from Vanguard, 2 from Abaddon)

was him Sam Harley? I ve seen a match of chaos soup with Abbadon against gsc+tyr, i liked that chaos list
In list forum most only lurk and never reply

 techsoldaten wrote:
Abaddon is the reason you play Black Legion. Could not tell you the mathhammer on the rerolls, but it has a significant impact on all my games.

Is he truly not considered competitive? My impression was primarchs overshadow him enough that no one was really trying.

Primarchs didn't even touch the top 8 at LVO. I have to go through all the lists to see the highest chaos list that ran primarchs. I think top chaos lists involved poxwalker / horrors, PBC and another with Foetid bloat drone spam. Primarch's are much more lethal in FLGS play.

For abaddon - In competitive some armies are running -2 to -3 hit standard (eldar) and at least -1 for every other army. Rerolling hits is amazing but it really gimps this aspect badly. If this is the primary driver of taking him (a 240 point model) then I'm not so sure... I'm happy to be proven wrong - i own abaddon and bought him cause i like the CP etc. I mean, where are people placing him that he is empowering 3x3 oblits (to do on one squad isn't worth his points) and can ALSO charge and be a beast in melee - where he doesn't die and give up warlord CP points - while maximizing his morale benefit. To me - it just seems too much.

orkswubwub wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Abaddon is the reason you play Black Legion. Could not tell you the mathhammer on the rerolls, but it has a significant impact on all my games.

Is he truly not considered competitive? My impression was primarchs overshadow him enough that no one was really trying.

Primarchs didn't even touch the top 8 at LVO. I have to go through all the lists to see the highest chaos list that ran primarchs. I think top chaos lists involved poxwalker / horrors, PBC and another with Foetid bloat drone spam. Primarch's are much more lethal in FLGS play.

For abaddon - In competitive some armies are running -2 to -3 hit standard (eldar) and at least -1 for every other army. Rerolling hits is amazing but it really gimps this aspect badly. If this is the primary driver of taking him (a 240 point model) then I'm not so sure... I'm happy to be proven wrong - i own abaddon and bought him cause i like the CP etc. I mean, where are people placing him that he is empowering 3x3 oblits (to do on one squad isn't worth his points) and can ALSO charge and be a beast in melee - where he doesn't die and give up warlord CP points - while maximizing his morale benefit. To me - it just seems too much.

Making the most of his melee capabilities is hard if you focus on the auras. I'd probably design the list around the CP bonus and rerolls as he's actually dangerous for once and people will avoid him like the plague.

Folks, can we put army lists behind a spoiler? As they get quoted and required it’s really bloating the scroll bar

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yup. In 7ed, Possessed and Cultists and regular CSMs was viable.

You're lying to yourself if you believe that.

Well, not to draw out the irrelevant 7ed rabbit hole, but as a Word Bearer with no access to Berzerkers I found ten of them in a Land Raider, with a Sorcerer and Dark Apostle accompanying a blob of Cultists, was a pretty viable starting point to a TAC list. I’d get above 50% victories, and that was good enough for me.

Now that I have access to Zerks and Noise Marines and don’t get ObSec on the Possessed, they’re not quite as quick a shoe-in, but - to get back on topic - I find they’re a pretty viable element in a Daemonkin list. If you’re adding a CSM Vanguard to get some Decimators churching up Epidemius or sharing a Khorne Locus, they’re an ok option for boots on the ground.

They’re not a top tier unit, but they can work.

Lesson learned in a game today: don't charge a blob of cultists into a blob of Poxwalkers. All I did was feed them. I used Tide of Traitors to regenerate my Cultists, but by then there were like 30 poxwalkers in that blob after they ate a bunch of the cultists. Not good.

But, in other news, Abaddon killed like triple his points worth of Death Guard terminators. 4 Blightlords, 3 Deathshrouds, and Typhus, and if we had had time for another turn (the FLGS was closing for the day), he'd have bagged that last Blightlord. He really is beastly, especially if you can roll 6's for Drach'nyen.

Edit: Okay, not triple, more like double, but still!

Okay some chaos tactics thoughts.

One of the tricks in the LVO winning list was to Webway Portal shining spears close to a screen, use a psychic power to move them over the screen, then shoot & assault support units at leisure (doubling up, because ynarri #retch#).

So I'm thinking can chaos imitate this trick? We don't have jetbike units. How much move is really needed to clear a screen? At least 13, 15 for a fully spread out two thick line of 30mm bases.

Best I can see is using renegade warp talons. Come in from reserves with a sorceror, warptime 12+d6, jump the screen and multicharge support units. They won't be able to overwatch. You might not be able to kill much, but they should get locked in combat preventing shooting for a turn.
Doe this work? You lose out on Votlw which sucks. Could still double attack with khorne.
Thinking of supporting this with khorne daemons, so if warptime fails the talons can still reroll charges.

Hey guys, long time Imperial loyalist here, just getting back into the hobby and I feel the taint of heresy spreading within me. I've been gradually working my way through this (very helpful) thread, approx page 60 atm. Trying to get the low down on what works well before I buy anything. I'm considering going Slannesh AL or EC with a focus on footslogging troops and daemon engines.

Regarding the Alpha Legion strat that allows a squad to infiltrate. There was a lot of debate around page 50 or so about how specifically it works. I just want to confirm that the infiltrate squad is placed after the seize roll, and that it can be used multiple times by spending multiple CP.
How has your experience been using this rule?

About the rule that allows a unit of cultists to re enter the board from any table edge. I'm thinking of using a large squad of melee cultists to infiltrate forward, charge and get chewed up, then re enter to disrupt the backline or go for objectives. The idea is to get in their face and distract/disrupt. How would you mitigating morale with such a unit? And again, what have your experiences been attempting this?

I am also pondering running Nurgle NL and spamming Ld reducing weapons and powers. I've seen a couple of people on here that run this, how well does this strat work? I feel that there's a lot of Ld negating auras and abilities around, I can see it getting shut down pretty easily.

Cheers guys.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm confused as to the fluff reasoning behind why Chaos drop pods have a move value and can fight in CC. I'd understand if when they came down they are immobile and can fire, but moving and CC? What's meant to be actually happening here? Are they hovering, or jumping around?. Is the large FW pod running around on its spike struts?

Dreadclaws have VTOL capability and can fly around after dropping off passengers.

the_Jakman wrote:
Hey guys, long time Imperial loyalist here, just getting back into the hobby and I feel the taint of heresy spreading within me. I've been gradually working my way through this (very helpful) thread, approx page 60 atm. Trying to get the low down on what works well before I buy anything. I'm considering going Slannesh AL or EC with a focus on footslogging troops and daemon engines.

Regarding the Alpha Legion strat that allows a squad to infiltrate. There was a lot of debate around page 50 or so about how specifically it works. I just want to confirm that the infiltrate squad is placed after the seize roll, and that it can be used multiple times by spending multiple CP.
How has your experience been using this rule?

Welcome to the congregation! Slaanesh is a decent monolatrist starting point and AL players are doing really well with their Stratagem. It’s a massive game-changer that out-deploys Scouts and similar.

the_Jakman wrote:
About the rule that allows a unit of cultists to re enter the board from any table edge. I'm thinking of using a large squad of melee cultists to infiltrate forward, charge and get chewed up, then re enter to disrupt the backline or go for objectives. The idea is to get in their face and distract/disrupt. How would you mitigating morale with such a unit? And again, what have your experiences been attempting this?

It’s brilliant. Budget 4CP for it. Wait til you see the look on their face when you ignore a Morale check on three surviving Cultists, then recycle the other 37 in their backfield

the_Jakman wrote:
I am also pondering running Nurgle NL and spamming Ld reducing weapons and powers. I've seen a couple of people on here that run this, how well does this strat work? I feel that there's a lot of Ld negating auras and abilities around, I can see it getting shut down pretty easily.

I’ve experimented with Nurgle Raptors. I’m not going to say it’s a gimmick or a gambit, but I’m not relying on it in my lists. Best likely payoff is forcing them to spend 2CP to save some important gun.

the_Jakman wrote:
Also, I'm confused as to the fluff reasoning behind why Chaos drop pods have a move value and can fight in CC. I'd understand if when they came down they are immobile and can fire, but moving and CC? What's meant to be actually happening here? Are they hovering, or jumping around?. Is the large FW pod running around on its spike struts?

Nope, they’re a VTOL assault boat designed to grab hold of ships on arrival and then extract the units they deliver. They’re also pretty... hungry, and put their claw and jets to offensive use. Seemingly immune to Daemonic interference, but still got banned by Loyalist Command for unreliability. It’s not that we have weird flying drop pods, it’s that the Imperium couldn’t figure out how to keep an assault boat machine spirit sane without nailing its vessel to the landing zone. Like if present day humans couldn’t make a dinghy autopilot behave itself unless the craft lacks harpoons and is designed to permanently anchor on arrival, and all gave up and passed a treaty banning them, except for that one bloc of countries that quite like their angry kill-boats. We kept ’em because (1) no other real options, and (2) ravacious mobile drop pods suit our idiom very nicely


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Okay some chaos tactics thoughts.

One of the tricks in the LVO winning list was to Webway Portal shining spears close to a screen, use a psychic power to move them over the screen, then shoot & assault support units at leisure (doubling up, because ynarri #retch#).

So I'm thinking can chaos imitate this trick? We don't have jetbike units. How much move is really needed to clear a screen? At least 13, 15 for a fully spread out two thick line of 30mm bases.

Best I can see is using renegade warp talons. Come in from reserves with a sorceror, warptime 12+d6, jump the screen and multicharge support units. They won't be able to overwatch. You might not be able to kill much, but they should get locked in combat preventing shooting for a turn.
Doe this work? You lose out on Votlw which sucks. Could still double attack with khorne.
Thinking of supporting this with khorne daemons, so if warptime fails the talons can still reroll charges.

Nothing wrong with Warp Talons. Solid choice for a Daemonkin type list. If you’re taking a drop claw, they add to an Outriders quite nicely. Tie up shooting for a turn? With FLY and a decenct charge roll, you can quite often entangle a unit and prevent fall back by charging over their heads. Also, try to tap the shoulder of a unit something else is going to charge and get heavily overwatched by:

Thx llndasy and bob. I guessed it was something like vtol, was having a bit of trouble imagining it on the tabletop is all.

Comparing EC Noise Marines with AL Noise Marines as the core of an army. I'm torn between the two, I really like the -1 to hit, but having Obj Sec seems really useful. Which is your preference?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd just like to confirm that the Changeling's -1 to hit aura only works on Tzeentch Daemons, so wouldn't buff the -1 from Alpha Legion, and wouldn't work on cultists or Hellbrutes.

the_Jakman wrote:
Thx llndasy and bob. I guessed it was something like vtol, was having a bit of trouble imagining it on the tabletop is all.

Comparing EC Noise Marines with AL Noise Marines as the core of an army. I'm torn between the two, I really like the -1 to hit, but having Obj Sec seems really useful. Which is your preference?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd just like to confirm that the Changeling's -1 to hit aura only works on Tzeentch Daemons, so wouldn't buff the -1 from Alpha Legion, and wouldn't work on cultists or Hellbrutes.

Changling doesn't do that anymore, rule has changed. Now it's a 6+++ fnp within 9" for friendly tzeench deamons.

Back to my Abby tried hi with 3 units of obilts last night and its scary... was killing leaman russ tanks at will. All about that mark of slannesh and veterans of the long war strat

One thing i'v not seen mentioned above is his 5+ DTFE... when the obilts were all killed off i just plunged him forwards to see what would happens and against imperials its scary just power fist attacks alone ye averaging 8 attacks hitting on 2's with a re-roll.

Also gave horrors a bash in the same list, with flickering flames on and a bit of smite they were taking down chimeras and wyvens!

Obsec on Noise Marines is not as good as -1 AND access to forward operatives IMO. Me, I'm Word Bearers, and dropping them out a claw is plenty enough to make them lethal.

Noise Marines as troops seems like their biggest benefit to me. Obsec is nice, but being able to more easily fill a battalion(s) really clinches it.

The best way to fill out battalions is cultists if you have enough of them in my book.

That -1 to be hit on a unit of Noise Marines in cover makes them very durable and they have the range to put down some firepower. I really like Alpha Legion Noise Marines and hell brutes. A Vanguard is hard to pass up.

i would have a 2000pt tournament but looks like will be pretty restrictive, i can have only 2 detachements ( i cant repeat) and i must choose them from
battalion
patrol
supreme command
i was thinking about a chaos battalion
abbadon
sorcerer
dreadclaw drop pod
about 100 cultists
8 noise with sonic blaster
3 tz oblys
3 sl onlys
then a supreme Ts command
Ahriman on disk
and two Ts Dp's
Im not sure if that's aggressive enough, i have bodies but they are pretty fragile at 2000 pts. maybe use berzy and not noise? Demons battalion if i want play with Ds seems like i will not have enough cp's, thanks if someone can give me some ideas.

-1 to be hit on NMs adds another edge to their sword. They’re so shooty, they’ve got to be dealt with. They’ve probably just killed everything within slapping distance, so dakka’s probably the only solution. When you kill them, they shoot AGAIN, but you’ve probably still got to shoot them as they’ll only Endless Cacophony if you leave them alone. And to top it all, an extra sixth of your rolls are going to miss! Really adds to the intensity of threat overload.

Drop twenty in a Kharybdis and Warptime it over the heads of that screen to play Unicron. Go on, you know you want to.

orkswubwub wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Abaddon is the reason you play Black Legion. Could not tell you the mathhammer on the rerolls, but it has a significant impact on all my games.

Is he truly not considered competitive? My impression was primarchs overshadow him enough that no one was really trying.

For abaddon - In competitive some armies are running -2 to -3 hit standard (eldar) and at least -1 for every other army. Rerolling hits is amazing but it really gimps this aspect badly. If this is the primary driver of taking him (a 240 point model) then I'm not so sure... I'm happy to be proven wrong - i own abaddon and bought him cause i like the CP etc. I mean, where are people placing him that he is empowering 3x3 oblits (to do on one squad isn't worth his points) and can ALSO charge and be a beast in melee - where he doesn't die and give up warlord CP points - while maximizing his morale benefit. To me - it just seems too much.

He is still boosting your damage by 33.3% (for a 3+ model) regardless of -1 or -2 to hit. Without modifiers to hit you go from 66.6% -> 88.8%, if your enemy has -2 to hit you go from 33.3% -> 44.4%. Both are increases of 1/3.

The reason Abaddon isn't competitive is because he is a Black Legion unit and their relic, trait and stratagem are terrible, bad and average respectively. If he buffed Alpha Legion in the same way you would see him everywhere.