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Sorry not enough experience with chaos to comment. Those fliers are a pain for every army though!

I usually play Iron Warriors but I got Abbadon and Ahriman on the cheap off a local player who was selling. I was thinking of how to use them from time to time. I came up with the below 2k list which uses models I own. Very simple plan, run berzerkers in, deep strike Ahriman using stratagem and warp time the talons in to tie up things. Cultists, Abbadon and obliterators walk up the field.

Black Legion Vanguard Detachment

Abbadon

10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath
10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath
10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath

3x Rhinos - 2x Combi bolters on each

10 Warp Talons MOT

2x obliterator squads MOS

Thousand Sons Patrol Detachment

Ahriman

40 Cultists MOT
10 Cultists MOT
10 Cultists MOT

I presume I can’t combine the two detachments into a single battalion as I wouldn’t get access to stratagems? Or that is how I understand it, that you require one pure detachment.

You’re understanding Stratagems right - a TS Detachment gets you access to TS starts and likewise a CSM/BL one.

Interesting list, shame you can’t squeeze in another TSorcerer for a little more DTW coverage and three more CPs. (And access to the big three - Prescience, Warptime, and Death Hex.) After dropping in Ahriman and popping an Endless Cacophony, you’ll not have enough CP left for a Tide of Traitors, which is a shame when you’re bringing a horde of forty. Perhaps a few Cultists and/or WTs could be substituted out?

Thanks, I figured it was that way. Shame as it would add two additional CP's.

I think on Ahriman i'd run him with Prescience, Warptime, and either the Tzeentch defensive power (+1 to invul saves/ 5++) or Death Hex depending on the game.

Maybe I could shoehorn one Tsorcerer in. Points are very tight though and I think you'd want to be running 60 cultists at least to justify Abbadon and his fearless bubble. The warp talons is a big unit of 10 so that they can tie up more units.

I'd probably save 2cps for tide of traitors and forgo endless cacophony. I think. I'd have to play with it first.

I need your help guys - currently i'm running a fluff army that doesn't do well on a competitive level. That's not to say that i dislike my custom warband.
Quite the opposite - i worship them. But they're bad in a competitive environment. They're fun to play for sure, but it's an Assault army, i.e. Possessed,
Maulerfiends, Bikes & Vindicators plus the usual chaff, and i've got the feeling that - unless you play Khorne Berserker - CSM assault isn't really good.

I was thinking of adding some Daemons to my army. I am currently running a Slaanesh CD supreme command detachment with 3 Heralds on mounts
to give my Mauler's the Advance/Charge & +1S bubble. It honestly doesn't do much, it's more of a gimmick. My idea was - and i'm not quite sure if this is
useful - to add Pink Horrors & 2 Units of Oblits but still run my Maulers & maybe possessed. It'd look something like this

CD Battalion - 594 pt.

Fluxmaster - Staff
Tzeentch DP - Warlord (Daemonspark), Impossible Robe

10 Brimstones
2x20 Pink Horrors

CSM Vanguard - 825 pt.

Jump-Pack Lord - Power Axe

3x5 Possessed - MoK & IoW

2x3 Oblits - MoT

CSM Spearhead - 554 pt.

Exalted Champion

3xLasherfiends

- total 1973 pt. -

It totally isn't a highly competitive list, i know that. I want to keep the flair of my Warband while being able to not being tabled instantly or not having any shooting
what so ever. Would you drop the Possessed entirely? I don't have berserkers & won't buy any because the models are, imho really ugly, so they're not an alternative
for me. The possessed are converted with AoS Blood Warriors & Wrathmongers - so making them MoT would seem weird.
I was also thinking to double down on the assault aspect of the army, i.e. add more Slaanesh Daemons. Daemonettes & Fiends & drown the other player in 'useless'
bodies. But than again, no shooting is probably bad in 8th. I could give you a run-down of units i do have, if it would help. Thanks in advance

What Legion’s rules are you thinking? I’m guessing IW for the improved Oblits, or AL for the harder to hit Oblits and infiltrating Possessed?

The Possessed are probably going to be easy prey for D2 guns, and the threat of Hellblasters means they’re probably not uncommon in your meta. I tend to field mine in a transport. But then, I’m Word Bearers and can’t infiltrate them

You could take a single mounted Herald in an auxiliary Detachment. It’d cost 1CP, which is the same as deep striking a similar unit, and she’d get LoS. Then, merge the Oblits into the Spearhead and drop a Lasherfiend. The two remaining Lasherfiends can then trot forwards either side of the Herald. (Have to say, I like this gimmick - definitely going to give it a try.)

Perhaps that might free up enough points to trade a Possessed unit for a Rhino for the other two, and a cheap Helbrute or similar to fill out the Vanguard? That’d add even more to the vehicular threat saturation. Maybe even get two Helbrutes and fit the Exalted Champion in the Rhino with a single medium sized Possessed unit. Or have one unit on foot and one riding with the EC.

Alternatively, switching him for a Jump Pack Sorcerer gives access to the excellent Warptime, Prescience, and Death Hex.

Can you add noise marines? They can be kitted out choppy if you want. Shooty ones are super efficient tho. Better than possessed either way. Also 30 pinks would be better to absorb losses before losing assault 3. Might help to drop exalted champion for a sorcerer to access dark hereticus for warptime at least also.

I tried mauler and forgefiends for a while but I couldn't really make them work. Could you go a couple defilers maybe?

Also I feel your pain. I have like 800 points invested in terminators in my list and I know there are better options but I just like them too much.

 Bryan01 wrote:
Sorry not enough experience with chaos to comment. Those fliers are a pain for every army though!

I usually play Iron Warriors but I got Abbadon and Ahriman on the cheap off a local player who was selling. I was thinking of how to use them from time to time. I came up with the below 2k list which uses models I own. Very simple plan, run berzerkers in, deep strike Ahriman using stratagem and warp time the talons in to tie up things. Cultists, Abbadon and obliterators walk up the field.

Black Legion Vanguard Detachment

Abbadon

10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath
10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath
10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath

3x Rhinos - 2x Combi bolters on each

10 Warp Talons MOT

2x obliterator squads MOS

Thousand Sons Patrol Detachment

Ahriman

40 Cultists MOT
10 Cultists MOT
10 Cultists MOT

I presume I can’t combine the two detachments into a single battalion as I wouldn’t get access to stratagems? Or that is how I understand it, that you require one pure detachment.

I ain't feeling Black Legion on this one. While Abigail would significantly increase the output of the Berserker Marines...they already attack twice. On top of that, they aren't even going to get any benefit outside the +1LD.

Cultists in Rhinos, worst idea ever? With minimal thought put into it, they will either be ignored and be able to cap objectives, or require more effort than they should to kill. Save the CP to use tide of traitors on a big unit while these harass stuff.

Tinkering with this list for a 1250pt three game tournament using Tactical Objectives:

Chaos Daemons Battalion
Poxbringer - Miasma
Poxbringer - Fleshy Abundance
22 Plaguebearers - Icon
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings

Word Bearers Spearhead
Sorcerer - Jump Pack, Force Sword, usually Warptime and Prescience
10 Noise Marines - 8 Sonic Blasters, 2 Blastmasters, Doom Siren, Lightning Claw, IoE
Hellforged Dreadclaw
3 Obliterators - MoN
Hellforged Rapier - C-beam Cannon
Hellforged Rapier - C-beam Cannon

Miasma Poxbringer hangs out with the big guns behind a PB screen.

My Oblits are too diseased to pass off as MoS for EC. So, I’m spending 1CP to make Fleshy Poxbringer come in with them. He’ll help keep them alive longer, and make them generate extra wounds as I spend 1CP on VotLW.

Noise Marines drop in the Dreadclaw alongside Sorcerer. Warptime DC into the enemy and Prescience the NMs. Spending 3CP on VotLW & EC.

2CP are for wild cards; re-roll a couple of casting or wound rolls, or maybe a second EC if I get lucky, or maybe even revive a dead Oblit.

I’m thinking of making Miasma Poxbringer into Warlord with +1W. Fleshy Poxbringer would get Corruption; I’m expecting Oblits to be a target for charges. IMO the CD Tactical Objectives are better for an all-comers list that’s got a Nurgle Oblits unit. This also gives me a pretty safe Warlord.

I have not yet faced a Dark Reaper castle. I would hope there will be LOS-blocking terrain that will make such threats manageable.

Welp did a few games over the weekend against nids and custodes running renegades (CSM not r&H) at 1k.

against nids i got my pants stolen pretty baddly.

against custodes i wont on objectives and didnt expect to see my hell brute run across the table 27" then charge (after a warp time)

I was thinking a tree maybe would help against reapers but really only the obliterators would benefit so prolly not worth it

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Cultists in Rhinos, worst idea ever? With minimal thought put into it, they will either be ignored and be able to cap objectives, or require more effort than they should to kill. Save the CP to use tide of traitors on a big unit while these harass stuff.

...Yeah no, that's a total waste of points.

@lindsay40k
Nope, i play Renegade CSM only. The Possessed can quite comfortably footslog, but i agree - they'll be blasted of the table in an instant. But, you gave me an idea.
What if i had more Smite / Psychic powers that'll deal mortal wounds while keeping the CP. Tried a bit around - it surely is just another chaos-soup now. But oh well:

CD Battalion - Tzeentch - 508 pt.

Fluxmaster - Warlord (Daemonspark), Impossible Robe (Boon of Change, Flickering Flames)
Fluxmaster - (Treason of Tzeentch, Gaze of Fate)

2x20 Pink Horrors
10 Brimstones

CSM Spearhead - Renegade Chapters - 1246 pt.

Tzeentch Daemon Prince w/ Wings (Warptime)

2x 8 Possessed - MoK

2x Lasherfiends - MoS
2x 3 Oblits - MoT

CD Supreme Command - Slaanesh - 246 pt.

3x Herald on Mount (Pavane of Slaanesh, Symphony of Pain, Cacophonic Choir)

total: 2000 pts on the button.

The Steed-Heralds tag along the Fiends & can clear / deal lots of MW against chaff & provide the Charge/Advance/+1S bonus.
The CSM DP gives Rerolls to both Heretic Astartes (Oblits, possessed, fiends) and Daemons (Horrors) while having Warptime to
accelerate a Fiend or the Possessed. The DP may be a bit overwhelmed with its jobs (rerolls for almost anything) but them's the
breakes. And the Fluxmasters can buff the Horrors & Oblits.. and i can keep my beloved Fiends & Possessed. What do you think?

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Cultists in Rhinos, worst idea ever? With minimal thought put into it, they will either be ignored and be able to cap objectives, or require more effort than they should to kill. Save the CP to use tide of traitors on a big unit while these harass stuff.

...Yeah no, that's a total waste of points.

Haha, okay.

Sir Daddy issues is just to make those thousand son cultists fearless and dish out re-rolls to the obilterators. I’d say Abbadon buffs berzerkers to the nines, but I doubt that will happen much.

Also cause I’m looking for a reason to use the model. My Iron warriors get the fearless bubble for 74pts, but can’t use it on another legion!

Hey guys been a while since I looked at this thread but I want to get some opinions on an idea I have been considering.

Ive got a fallen angels list (csm alpha legion rules) being led by Marbas (fallen DP). To make this list fluffy i'm running CSM detachments (battalion and spearhead) and Im planning on having points put aside for summoning tzeentch daemons.

I've been thinking that there is some really good synergy with alpha legion forward operatives. The plan would be spend 2 CP to deploy a blob of 40 cultists in my opponenets face with a dark apostle. The DA can then summon a blob of 20-30 pink horrors.

This puts a huge wall of infantry in front of my opponent with some decent fire power and the ability to seriously slow them down whilst i lock down ovjectives and get into position. Also woild help to get my DP up the board with more safety.

Im also thinking of getting some exalted flamers to add to my summon pool for some extra firepower.

Obviously this list is very aggressive and would do better getting turn one.

Has anyone tried anything similar, and do people think this strat could be successful?

I can post my draft up list if people are interested in seeing exactly what im thinking of running.

Infiltrating cultists into your opponent's face is a solid and proven tactic. However, there is no point bringing the DA along as summoning is just *that* bad. You are better off taking 20 Pinks and just deepstriking them in your turn 1 for the same CP as you spent on putting the DA there, but without any chance of failing the summoning roll and no chance of your DA taking mortal wounds.

fishwaffle2232 wrote:
Hey guys been a while since I looked at this thread but I want to get some opinions on an idea I have been considering.

Ive got a fallen angels list (csm alpha legion rules) being led by Marbas (fallen DP). To make this list fluffy i'm running CSM detachments (battalion and spearhead) and Im planning on having points put aside for summoning tzeentch daemons.

I've been thinking that there is some really good synergy with alpha legion forward operatives. The plan would be spend 2 CP to deploy a blob of 40 cultists in my opponenets face with a dark apostle. The DA can then summon a blob of 20-30 pink horrors.

This puts a huge wall of infantry in front of my opponent with some decent fire power and the ability to seriously slow them down whilst i lock down ovjectives and get into position. Also woild help to get my DP up the board with more safety.

Im also thinking of getting some exalted flamers to add to my summon pool for some extra firepower.

Obviously this list is very aggressive and would do better getting turn one.

Has anyone tried anything similar, and do people think this strat could be successful?

I can post my draft up list if people are interested in seeing exactly what im thinking of running.

i'm curious, are you planning to run the Fallen as Fallen, or as Chosen, or as something else? The transport issue comes to mind.

Dark Apostles cannot move with the Cultists using Tide of Traitors. How would it get up the board for summoning?

It feels like a list I would want to run, were it not for those issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

saint_red wrote:
Infiltrating cultists into your opponent's face is a solid and proven tactic. However, there is no point bringing the DA along as summoning is just *that* bad. You are better off taking 20 Pinks and just deepstriking them in your turn 1 for the same CP as you spent on putting the DA there, but without any chance of failing the summoning roll and no chance of your DA taking mortal wounds.

Summoning has it's place.

Deep striking 20 pinks with Denizens of the Warp costs 2 command points and you're stuck with Pink Horrors if they are part of a detachment.

Summoning 20 pinks with 3 dice goes off 66% of the time for no command points (you have about a 99% chance of summoning 10.) If you decide you really need Bloodletters instead, you can change your mind. With a command point reroll, your odds of summoning 20 go up to just under 80%.

Yes the DA cant FO with the cultists but I can spend another CP to FO him as well. For 2 CP i get a squad of 40 cultists up the field ready to to rapid fire ( if i get first turn), supported by a DA and I have a pretty decent chance of summoning the Horrors (can burn an extra CP if i need to for reroll) for even more firepower.
And as you mentioned I can do all of this without committing to filling a detachment and finding ways to move them up the board.
I tend to run a sorcerer with jump pack or termie armour too whcih i can deepstrike, so this gives me the option of summoning some exalted flamers the next turn to boltster the cultists and pinks and to counter attack.

Of course this is all theory because I dont even have the daemons yet, I just thought it could add some nice fluff to my list and also be quite effective in my semi casual gaming group.

Also I play havocs as 'fallen' equiped with plasma in one squad and las/missiles in the other. This is because I like being able to forward operatives them if i need to, I like to -1 to hit and for the reason you mentioned, there is no option for transport with actual Fallen.

Denizens of the Warp is 1CP for 20 Pinks, 2CP for 30. So the CP cost for infiltrating the DA + Cultists is the same as infiltrating Cultists and deep striking, but you have 100% chance of getting them in vs 66%. Spending a CP for 80% isn't bad odds but then you're down an extra CP and *still* face risk of failure not to mention the 5/12 chance of inflicting a mortal wound on yourself. The other bonus here is that now you don't need to spend points on a DA and can instead spent them on a much more useful Herald of Tzeentch (provided you're bringing Pinks).

It's true that summoning gives you flexibility in what unit you bring in. However, Bloodletters and Pinks perform the same role and are very similar in their effectiveness (there is a lot of discussion on this in the Daemons tactica). This means the flexibility you have with summoning isn't that great as you end up with the same result (annihilating screens or exposed units) regardless of which option you choose. It's true that you could take Bloodcrushers or Flamers but these two units are both inferior to the equivalent points spent on Bloodletters and Pinks respectively.

Regarding the Pinks requiring a detachment - this could be good or bad depending how you look at it and the rest of your list. It could be argued that by summoning you aren't making the most of ~150 points that could be used to gain CP. Tzeentch Daemon Battalions are easy to fill out due to cheap Brimstones and because their Daemonic Locus is really bad you can take Nurglings or other useful Daemon units without losing out on utility.

By all means go for the summoning route, especially if it fits the fluff you have created for your army, but I don't think it's the most efficient choice. I play Word Bearers with Daemon support so I really really wish summoning made sense but I've yet to find an instance where it is more efficient than other options we have. Instead I am running a detachment of Daemons that deep strikes in that I consider my CSM to have summoned.

saint_red wrote:
Denizens of the Warp is 1CP for 20 Pinks, 2CP for 30. So the CP cost for infiltrating the DA + Cultists is the same as infiltrating Cultists and deep striking, but you have 100% chance of getting them in vs 66%. Spending a CP for 80% isn't bad odds but then you're down an extra CP and *still* face risk of failure not to mention the 5/12 chance of inflicting a mortal wound on yourself. The other bonus here is that now you don't need to spend points on a DA and can instead spent them on a much more useful Herald of Tzeentch (provided you're bringing Pinks).

It's true that summoning gives you flexibility in what unit you bring in. However, Bloodletters and Pinks perform the same role and are very similar in their effectiveness (there is a lot of discussion on this in the Daemons tactica). This means the flexibility you have with summoning isn't that great as you end up with the same result (annihilating screens or exposed units) regardless of which option you choose. It's true that you could take Bloodcrushers or Flamers but these two units are both inferior to the equivalent points spent on Bloodletters and Pinks respectively.

Regarding the Pinks requiring a detachment - this could be good or bad depending how you look at it and the rest of your list. It could be argued that by summoning you aren't making the most of ~150 points that could be used to gain CP. Tzeentch Daemon Battalions are easy to fill out due to cheap Brimstones and because their Daemonic Locus is really bad you can take Nurglings or other useful Daemon units without losing out on utility.

By all means go for the summoning route, especially if it fits the fluff you have created for your army, but I don't think it's the most efficient choice. I play Word Bearers with Daemon support so I really really wish summoning made sense but I've yet to find an instance where it is more efficient than other options we have. Instead I am running a detachment of Daemons that deep strikes in that I consider my CSM to have summoned.

That's a far cry from summoning being "that bad."

You mentioned efficiency, which is actually what makes summoning a very valid alternative. When you summon, you don't pay the HQ tax for a choice that won't synchronize with the rest of your army. Khorne Heralds / Karanak still have to be paid for, and the only reason they are there is to support that Bloodletter bomb (same is true with their Tzeentch alternatives.) If you're just looking at a couple units of Daemon infantry, you're paying 20% more when you consider the HQ tax.

When you stop to consider the combined odds of getting 8 PL of summoning, on 3 HQs it works out to about a 99% chance of getting what you want. The wording of Daemonic Ritual is that you can summon one new unit, not that you must place one new unit. I would gladly trade 3 CPs for a 2% chance of something not going off.

Sure, placement of the HQs matters and DotW lets you place your unit anywhere on the field, but I don't see people using Bloodletter bombs for objective grabbing. These are usually shock troops called in the first rounds, and summoning would be a totally viable means of getting them there.

@EverlastingNewb - looks similar to a lot of my friendhammer lists. For fun games, it looks pretty viable. Though you’ve only got one more Possessed model than before, and morale may well remove it... best of luck getting them across the table.

Heralds setting up chaff units to take Ld-based MWs does have hard counters, and the Horrors are already on crowd control. I’d be inclined to try it out, then try switching two for Rhinos and taking the CP hit for an auxiliary Detachment - I think a Havoc Launcher and a Combi-Flamer will make them match for points.

Khorne heralds give re-roll charges and +1 strength, how on earth is that bad? Tzeentch Heralds are even better with +1 strength and Flickering Fires letting you wound MEQs on 2s.

If you are suggesting wasting the movement phase of 3 HQs + risking giving yourself mortal wounds (5/12 per attempt) I don't really know what to tell you.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Cultists in Rhinos, worst idea ever? With minimal thought put into it, they will either be ignored and be able to cap objectives, or require more effort than they should to kill. Save the CP to use tide of traitors on a big unit while these harass stuff.

...Yeah no, that's a total waste of points.

Devils advocate here but if your list is running rhinos to protect Noise marines turn 1 for example, then hopping cultists inside after the marines get out ans set up is not a horrible play by any means. You figure a Rhino is 74 pts, so sure you could buy nearly 20 more cultists, but honestly 10 t7w with a 3+ is arguably better then 20 t3 wounds with a 6+, sure one is better vs elite weapons while the other spam fire but as I said, If your taking rhinos already it's by no means bad. I run with rhinos in my EC list to protect my noise boys and already use them after deployment to charge the enemy and get in the way, no reason they couldn't take 10 PITA with them lol.

Project Clown Car just got a tenuous green light from me

But if your only running rhinos for cultists you may want to run more gun instead, but I'd want to see your list before I disregard any tactic.

I don’t have anything put together involving this tactic, just a random thought that occurred to me. I will try it eventually, for fun.

Glad I got this discussion, thanks for pointing out some of the down sides to summoning saint_red.
My example is a very specific use of summoning as a way of maximising an alpha strike. In this case if a mortal wound on the DA meant i got the 20 pinks out, i think it isnt the worst tradeoff.

You make a very good point about the heralds too, I also really like the changeling. Once I get more models I think I may try running a battalion of daemons.

Another thought I have had after reading these responses is that I could always run a patrol detachment with a herald + pinks. Deep strike the pinks and herald for 2 CP as well as the 40 cultists if i think its necessary for another CP. They lose DA but this may not be a huge problem, especially because they will come back with ToT. This option eliminates the risk of perils or not getting the summon off, i get the herald buffs and i get access to the daemon stratagems and spells. Only thing is I miss out on is the CP. I actually really like this option though.

Outside of this specific scenario I still think summoning is a great and flexible way to get daemons onto the field. For starters I dont have to commit to certain units, I can decide to deploy different units in response to my opponent. E.g if I am getting smashed on a flank or rear my HQ can summon something in direct response to this. I dont think the risk of mortal wounds outweighs the positives of it nor the loss of movement, particulalry if it is a sorcerer or DP with warptime to get that move back.

the main problem of summoning is forfeit movement phase, in a dynamic game like 40k that can be huge sometimes

 blackmage wrote:
the main problem of summoning is forfeit movement phase, in a dynamic game like 40k that can be huge sometimes

As per post above, warptime.

saint_red wrote:
Khorne heralds give re-roll charges and +1 strength, how on earth is that bad? Tzeentch Heralds are even better with +1 strength and Flickering Fires letting you wound MEQs on 2s.

If you are suggesting wasting the movement phase of 3 HQs + risking giving yourself mortal wounds (5/12 per attempt) I don't really know what to tell you.

The items you point out are not bad. They are nice bonuses, in fact.

But one of the main complaints about Bloodletter Bombs is overkill, even without Heralds. Why offensively buff something that is already going to kill it's target? I could see Heralds as being important if you are going against Knights, Tanks, Crisis Suits, etc. But Heavy Infantry, MEQ, chaff, etc - these things die quick to AP -3 weapons. And you have an 88% chance to make a charge at 9 inches with a CP reroll.

With regards to movement, sure, that's a drawback. But there's an 80% chance it only affects one character. That's not a game changer for me, that's normal positioning to maintain auras.

Let's remember, I was responding to a comment about how awful summoning is. My point is summoning has it's place and is certainly not as bad as it's being described.

fishwaffle2232 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
the main problem of summoning is forfeit movement phase, in a dynamic game like 40k that can be huge sometimes

As per post above, warptime.

But then you're wasting one of the best powers we have available.