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Current list I am running: Iron Warriors / Tzeentch Daemons, 2k points

Iron Warriors battalion:

Troops

10x cultists, autoguns
10x cultists, autoguns
10x cultists, autoguns

Elites
9x chaos terminator, combi-plasma, chainfists, Mark of Slaanesh

Heavy support
Obliterators, Mark of Tzeentch
Obliterators, Mark of Tzeentch
Obliterators, Mark of tzeentch

HQ
Terminator sorcerer, warptime, prescience, force stave, combi bolster
Chaos Lord, bolt pistol, chain sword

Daemons battalion

30x pink horrors
10x brimstone horrors
10x brimstone horrors

HQ

Daemon prince, warlord, Tzeentch, impossible robe, daemonspark, flickering flames
Fluxmaster, gaze of fate, infernal gateway

Strategy: warp in terminator with sorcerer out of deny range, obliterators with daemon prince for rerolls, march pinks up the middle. Use gaze of fate to make sure prescience goes off and then shoot everything off the board with overcharged plasma and fleshmetal guns. Not super competitive but pretty fluffy if you pretend the chaos lord is warsmith Shon'tu.

Looks pretty nasty to me!

Speaking of Iron Warriors. Basic Iron Warrior Noise marines without sonic blasters in a rhino. Potentially viable? With swords and pistol they are a decent assault unit that throws ignore cover Frag or krak nades as they die due to the chapter trait. Even with bolters instead of chainswords they on paper seem like an alright all rounder unit for Iron Warriors. 15 pts each isn’t crazy expensive for a chaff clearing unit.

Of course berzerkers do the same for a point more...

Why are the 30 Pink Horrors not deepstriking?

Rejiggered it a bit for today. Gave the lord a jump pack and took away the Herald 's disc. I am super happy with it. Tabled everything I faced.

I haven't had much luck with horrors, so I just use them as a clog at this point.

Had an idea for a list that I think would be pretty cool, not tournament competitive but I like it. So I noticed that Noise, Plague and Rubric Marines all have decent assault weapons or rules that allow them to move and fire.

Take Abbadon, surround him with multiple squads of Noise, Plague and Rubric Marines, MSU to maximize special weapons like, Blastmasters, Blight Launchers etc. Cultists up front. That's potentially a lot of models benefiting from fearless, reroll all hits, and move advance fire.

Seems like this could be a good core of an army. Like, not super competitive, but varied, fluffy and would look cool.

It's mildly annoying that part of the Black Legion bonus is +1LD, but you're shoehorned into taking Abigail, and he provides a Fearless bubble anyway and you're trying to maximize that benefit of his rerolls regardless.

orkswubwub wrote:
Anyone comment on best troop/detachment set-up for ITC? It seems like at least slaneesh Stratagem on Oblits is mandatory (=/- VOTLW) which means for even two turns worth it could be a 4-6 CP Burn. Not counting if you have other strong abilities you want to pop.

Nurglings look good but of course don't give legion trait. Minimum unit strength cultists seem appealing but really limit you from going to two battalions (you will for sure give up repear). Alterntiavely, max strength cultist units are somewhat in vogue, although I am not completely sold on the necessity of brining morale negating (Iron warriors/abaddon) or the use of VOTLW/Prescience and/or warptime on a unit of 40 cultists (that only move 6 inches - 12 WITH warptime). This also eats a significant number of points and still likely will give up reaper against most chaffe clearing armies. Although I guess you do get the 2CP from abaddon which is nothing to laugh at - but would have to be black legion as opposed to alpha.

Are people running CSM? Or is it better just to accept CP cap of 6-8 depending on how detachments are built?

Let's be clear. ITC rules give points for the power level of each unit destroyed, right? If you want to try for dual batallions, go ahead, but consider how matches are actually scored.

MSU seems disadvantageous. If you are going that way, Abaddon's aura that gives immunity from morale seems essential.

All you need for Abaddon's extra CPs is to have him as your warlord. Fine if you want to mix detachments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's mildly annoying that part of the Black Legion bonus is +1LD, but you're shoehorned into taking Abigail, and he provides a Fearless bubble anyway and you're trying to maximize that benefit of his rerolls regardless.

It's meant to reflect most units in a Black Legion army are veterans. Abaddon can't be everywhere at once, and not everyone takes him.

 techsoldaten wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's mildly annoying that part of the Black Legion bonus is +1LD, but you're shoehorned into taking Abigail, and he provides a Fearless bubble anyway and you're trying to maximize that benefit of his rerolls regardless.

It's meant to reflect most units in a Black Legion army are veterans. Abaddon can't be everywhere at once, and not everyone takes him.

But what's the incentive to NOT take him? He gives a better aura and extra CP and on top of that gets several keywords.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's mildly annoying that part of the Black Legion bonus is +1LD, but you're shoehorned into taking Abigail, and he provides a Fearless bubble anyway and you're trying to maximize that benefit of his rerolls regardless.

It's meant to reflect most units in a Black Legion army are veterans. Abaddon can't be everywhere at once, and not everyone takes him.

But what's the incentive to NOT take him? He gives a better aura and extra CP and on top of that gets several keywords.

I always take him in 2000 point games. He's why you play Black Legion.

In 1000 point games, he's not an auto-include because that's 25% of the points for your army. I would sometimes rather have a Daemon Price with Wings for increased mobility. Other times, I want to double down on infantry and take an Aspiring Champion & Sorcerer, relying on VotLW and other shenanigans to get some of the same benefits.

My FLGS meta is semi-competitive, meaning I play against some fluff list and some hard-as-nails lists. I've never been in a situation where it's bad to have Abaddon. For the most part, what he does is affect how you place your troops. I've lost a few games because I wasn't able to spread out enough to capture all the objectives I needed, but I've never been in a position where I wished for some other HQ when I took him.

Is a Warp Bolter on a CD Daemon Prince the index cost?

Only the CSM one was dropped in pts. Which direction in the flow chart does this one go in?

The Faction is the same, the weapon the same but it is different army, different data sheet, so different points cost right? The Warp Bolter isn't even listed in Codex so strictly using the Index, we pay full price, Yay or nay?

an Iron Warrior Lord with Fleshmetal Exoskeleton and Cold And BItter trait is a decent sobstitute for Abbandon, as you can keep him cheap at 74 point and you have 6" moral bubble and reroll 1.

On plus your cultists can benefit from Iron Warrior trait and negate cover.

I just constructed a fully magnetised knight with all the options, I would apppreciate some help with the loadout I should give him.

sushi2001 wrote:
I just constructed a fully magnetised knight with all the options, I would apppreciate some help with the loadout I should give him.

Usually some form of dual gun configuration is the best - two Thermal Cannons perform decently, and for a reasonable price. Twin Rapid-Fire Battle Cannons is also quite good, if you have the points to spare (100+ each). The stomp attacks are usually better than the chainsword or thunderstike gauntlet in melee, anyway, so neither of them is worth spending points on.

I would also advise the Ironstorm Rocket Pod as the Carapace Weapon, if any. The ability to snipe out mortar teams and the like is very valuable.

Terminator lords are they worth taking or not? I do like the sound of a Nurgle one with the +1 would warlord trait and the Nurgle relic

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Terminator lords are they worth taking or not? I do like the sound of a Nurgle one with the +1 would warlord trait and the Nurgle relic

Difficult to see what they’re optimal for.

Their aura wants to be mobile. A Jump Pack makes for a far more useful quartermaster, who’s just as capable of deep striking.

Their melee capabilities want to be mobile. A Jump Pack makes for a far more useful counter-attack model that can escape the reach of a bigger fish or an enveloping tarpit, who’s just as capable of deep striking.

If a fighter with high endurance is desired, then a Daemon Prince seems to do a far better job of it. It hits harder, it’s aura has a larger base to work with (and can transcend it’s <LEGION> with friendly DAEMON units), it can have wings, it has far more wounds, it can take a spell (and we *really* benefit from have access to Warptime, Death Hex, and Prescience) and it punches harder.

I built a Terminator Sorcerer and Lord to drop in with my Terminators in 7ed. In 8ed, I almost always leave them on the shelf and drop in Jump Pack equivalents instead. Especially since I may well Warptime the Termies and have to catch up with them next turn, since CHARACTERS can no longer tag along with units.

That juicy Puscleaver? It’s a lovely beatstick, and I want it delivered into a fight ASAP. Which wants mobility. Which doesn’t want TDA :/

 lindsay40k wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Terminator lords are they worth taking or not? I do like the sound of a Nurgle one with the +1 would warlord trait and the Nurgle relic

Difficult to see what they’re optimal for.

Their aura wants to be mobile. A Jump Pack makes for a far more useful quartermaster, who’s just as capable of deep striking.

Their melee capabilities want to be mobile. A Jump Pack makes for a far more useful counter-attack model that can escape the reach of a bigger fish or an enveloping tarpit, who’s just as capable of deep striking.

If a fighter with high endurance is desired, then a Daemon Prince seems to do a far better job of it. It hits harder, it’s aura has a larger base to work with (and can transcend it’s <LEGION> with friendly DAEMON units), it can have wings, it has far more wounds, it can take a spell (and we *really* benefit from have access to Warptime, Death Hex, and Prescience) and it punches harder.

I built a Terminator Sorcerer and Lord to drop in with my Terminators in 7ed. In 8ed, I almost always leave them on the shelf and drop in Jump Pack equivalents instead. Especially since I may well Warptime the Termies and have to catch up with them next turn, since CHARACTERS can no longer tag along with units.

That juicy Puscleaver? It’s a lovely beatstick, and I want it delivered into a fight ASAP. Which wants mobility. Which doesn’t want TDA :/

Well damn that's kinda tbh as i was really hoping to get some use out. of my terminator lord. I do see your point though a jump pack is way better.
Its a shame puscleaver is Nurgle only as if it was just a generic poisoned weapon i could see some use for it on a Tzrench Lord on disc :/ (seriously gw out of all the relics you could have given tzeemch you gave a psyker only one)

I personally like Jump Pack lords for their mobility. The optimal use for a Terminator Lord may be summoning (even though it's disfavored, which I understand.)

Summoning is prone to failure, and you really have to commit to it. It's not as precise as Deep Strike, but it is a good way to place Daemons on the board without having to burn CPs on Denziens of the Warp. Having a TL who can stand up to small arms fire when something goes wrong is important, since he can't move and you likely need him to try the same trick the next phase.

The odds for summoning a Bloodletter unit can be nicely visualized: about a 33% chance for 30, a 66% chance for 20, and a 99% chance for 10. The combined odds of summoning a single unit of 20 over 2 turns works out close to 80%, and the combined odds of summoning a single unit of 30 works out to around 48%.

As long as the Character stays alive. Yes, a DP is going to have more wounds and better toughness. Yes, a Sorcerer can also do psychic stuff (and probably should accompany the CL.) But the DP can't Deep Strike the way the CL can and the Sorcerer doesn't have a reroll aura to improve the combat.

It's not competitive, but it's not a bad way to run a CL.

Summoning is useful if your playing a "adaptive" army where say 500 pts or so can be a wide range of stuff depending on who you are playing. Typically it's better to just place the units, but not always.

Dropping a term lords with some oblits and then using that forward position to start summoning on turn 2 can work depending on what your looking for.

Also summoning can be useful for certain things. I typically summon a changeling in to help with my defiler with my lord. Gives him reroll on 1's, allows for spells to be cast to make it better, and 6+++ bonus for an easy summon that doesn't break my detachment rules.

Best uses for Terminator Lords:

- quartermastering a load of Obliterators (still not as useful as a Jump Pack who can scarecrow with a Murder Sword, IMO)

- proxying Typhus in a Poxwalker farm

- quartermastering a gunline and having plenty of W to reinforce with Summoning (still not as useful as if they had a daemonic Mount for the extra Wound & better ability to counter-charge or leg it)

- really nice champion figure for a Terminator unit

- gimmick deep strike summoning list that forgoes the Loci and DS flexibility of actual Daemon detachments - that arrive and charge on turn one (still not as good as Jump Pack)

Yea, I might bring Termy Lords in a list where I run out of Jump Pack models first. Being able to move when and where you need to is more valuable. But I do have some nice conversions that don't see enough table.

I do tend to Deepstrike my oblits into cover, so a Termy Lord can sit in with them nicely. I plan in taking one termy Lord with the Oblits, and one with Raptors for a Night Lord theme I'm working on.

Hmm. I'm working on a Kharybdis full of Noise Marines, and I'm thinking they're a candidate for my Termie Sorcerer.

Tyranids have introduced guaranteed PotW to the meta. It'll probably be a common enough sight that having an extra wound on a gunner blob's Prescience/Warptime caster will be handy. It's a setup that will probably quite like a Daemonettes/Fiends/KoS summoner (gimmicky, but I like to field a casual/fluff army and lead it as well as I can) who doesn't care about low M. Got a jump Lord that I already use with a Dreadclaw Plasma Chosen squad that can handle the mobile counter-charging duties.

I've build a Forgefiends for a painting turnament. I've magnetize the weapons, what is the best way to build him ? Am I missing something with the Plasma ?
Hades autocannon seems more valuable.

Azuza001 wrote:
Summoning is useful if your playing a "adaptive" army where say 500 pts or so can be a wide range of stuff depending on who you are playing. Typically it's better to just place the units, but not always.

Dropping a term lords with some oblits and then using that forward position to start summoning on turn 2 can work depending on what your looking for.

Also summoning can be useful for certain things. I typically summon a changeling in to help with my defiler with my lord. Gives him reroll on 1's, allows for spells to be cast to make it better, and 6+++ bonus for an easy summon that doesn't break my detachment rules.

This is about how I've been using them. Put the CL behind the Obliterators to reroll 1s, and summon before your opponent gets a chance to charge.

The great thing about this tactic is it discourages landing 9 inches away from your opponent. I can usually measure the distance to what I want to shoot before placing the Obliterators, and they end up far enough out to avoid a charge before the Bloodletters are summoned.

This tactic also has great synergy with MoS / Endless Cacophony and with a Terminator Sorcerer with Prescience / Death Hex. You can create a nasty fire base with the right pieces.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. I'm working on a Kharybdis full of Noise Marines, and I'm thinking they're a candidate for my Termie Sorcerer.

Tyranids have introduced guaranteed PotW to the meta. It'll probably be a common enough sight that having an extra wound on a gunner blob's Prescience/Warptime caster will be handy. It's a setup that will probably quite like a Daemonettes/Fiends/KoS summoner (gimmicky, but I like to field a casual/fluff army and lead it as well as I can) who doesn't care about low M. Got a jump Lord that I already use with a Dreadclaw Plasma Chosen squad that can handle the mobile counter-charging duties.

A Kharybdis and a Dreadclaw is over 500 points. You might do better with Rhinos, honestly.

I did that with Noise Marines for a while. The KAC would deposit it's occupants, the Sorcerer would cast Warptime, and the Noise Marines unleashed their salvo before the KAC charged some vehicle / monster with the Melta Cutters.

It was a little gimmicky and tended to only work against non-optimized lists. The Noise Marines would get one really great round of shooting before something tore into them. The KAC was good at consolidating into combat because of the size of it's base, which often meant attacks were with the Blade struts (which degrade from S9 to S5 as you take damage.) But it was 50 / 50 on actually killing anything, it's real use was tying things up.

If you are going to do this, a few suggestions:

- Use Endless Cacophony the turn the NMs arrive. Don't expect them to last, they die like any other MEQ. One big squad of NMs is better than 2 smaller squads for this reason.

- Think about a screening unit. Terminators with Combi-Plasma are an excellent compliment to your NMs. Properly positioned, they will get you an extra turn of shooting with some of the NMs.

- Remember the Sonic Blasters are 4 shot bolters, don't waste their shots. It's better to take out a couple large screening units then waste all those shots on a single unit of Terminators (who are likely going to shrug off most of the damage.)

- If you can Multicharge with the KAC to target a vehicle plus a character, do it. It's the quickest way to get a Warlord kill with a CSM army. The Melta Cutter rule is worded so that you get to use them the turn you CHARGE a monster / vehicle. It does not say you have to ATTACK the monster / vehicle. The KAC is unlikely to actually kill a monster / vehicle with 20+ wounds, because the Blade struts will often degrade to S7 the first turn.

- KAC / NM tactics are a great reason to use Tide of Traitors. If you can wipe out a screening unit with shooting, you can use ToT to flood the zone with your own. Maybe have a Sorcerer cast Warp Time on the Cultists the turn after the KAC arrives to position them to protect all your other troops. For that matter, if you use ToT, consider warp timing the Cultists instead of the KAC.

- Think about what else can deep strike. A Terminator Lord for the reroll 1s, or Abaddon, can make your Noise Marines a lot killier.

To add to the TDA debate: I have tried 5 Blightlords supported by a Nurgle TDA Sorc and Tzeetch TDA Sorc.

Every game it has been extremely underwhelming; Sorcerers aren't very good in CC, and while I love their buffs, I kept wishing I had something better. For DG you can take Typhus in the same role, and hes 10000000x better.

A TDA Lord can work in Death Guard, but in CSM jump lords are better overall. a 2+/5++ doesn't save a lord anyway, they die just as quickly with the TDA as without most games, IMO. As well, they are SOOOO SLOW. I never thought 4" movement would be that much of an impediment, but it really is; half the time they need extremely good assault rolls to get where they need to. I'd say they'd be much better if they could get the benefits of the Codex they are from (DG Sorcerers get the +1T/DR, 1k Sorc get +1 Invun/more spells, etc.). As is, I built several sorcs to support my blightlords, and I now find myself shelving terminators in general for some more Poxwalkers and two Demon Princes, they are just so much better!

 Zid wrote:
A TDA Lord can work in Death Guard, but in CSM jump lords are better overall. a 2+/5++ doesn't save a lord anyway, they die just as quickly with the TDA as without most games, IMO. As well, they are SOOOO SLOW. I never thought 4" movement would be that much of an impediment, but it really is; half the time they need extremely good assault rolls to get where they need to. I'd say they'd be much better if they could get the benefits of the Codex they are from (DG Sorcerers get the +1T/DR, 1k Sorc get +1 Invun/more spells, etc.). As is, I built several sorcs to support my blightlords, and I now find myself shelving terminators in general for some more Poxwalkers and two Demon Princes, they are just so much better!

Re: shelving Terminators - how much of that is due to massed infantry in general, as opposed to problems with the Terminators? I get it that they are slow, but aren't there situations where they would be handy to have around? Are you finding they are entirely outclassed?

@techsoldaten - yeah, that’s pretty much how I’m going to use them - drop turn one, EC and focus on screens, beg my opponent to shoot at them and give me extra Prescience shots, then a Plasma squad to rapid fire at a target that’s lost its screen.

Interesting trick with the Kharybdis. I think I’ll give it a miss, though - I’m playing with friends and it’s an interpretation that seems to miss RAI.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Zid wrote:
A TDA Lord can work in Death Guard, but in CSM jump lords are better overall. a 2+/5++ doesn't save a lord anyway, they die just as quickly with the TDA as without most games, IMO. As well, they are SOOOO SLOW. I never thought 4" movement would be that much of an impediment, but it really is; half the time they need extremely good assault rolls to get where they need to. I'd say they'd be much better if they could get the benefits of the Codex they are from (DG Sorcerers get the +1T/DR, 1k Sorc get +1 Invun/more spells, etc.). As is, I built several sorcs to support my blightlords, and I now find myself shelving terminators in general for some more Poxwalkers and two Demon Princes, they are just so much better!

Re: shelving Terminators - how much of that is due to massed infantry in general, as opposed to problems with the Terminators? I get it that they are slow, but aren't there situations where they would be handy to have around? Are you finding they are entirely outclassed?

So this is my opinion JUST using Blightlord terminators;
1) WS 3 is bad if they don't have someone where to help them reroll (i.e. a prince or lord). I have found that I miss way too many swings.
2) They need a LOT of support to make back their points against most elites; for example, I charged 5 Blightlords buffed with Blades and Vitality into a Hive Tyrant that had been death hexed. Wounding on 3's is great, right? Well they didn't kill the tyrant; as a matter of fact, they only did 5 wounds, 2 of which were mortal wounds from 6's. This required 2 buffs from a nurgle sorc, and warptime from a tzeentch sorc.
3) 2 wounds isn't a whole lot.
4) They have a pitiful amount of attacks for an "elite" unit. 2 attacks per model, 3 for the champ... thats really low when you compare it to a blob of 30 bloodletters that costs LESS.
5) They try to be where you can make them "melee" or "shooty", but they don't do either better than a lot of options.

My findings are, point for point, you just have better things to spend your points on. As well, the stuff I geared my unit to kill (elites, monsters), they failed at doing consecutively each game. As well, they are pretty fragile; a 2+/4++ w/ DR sounds great, except when you think about it a lot of stuff does 2 or more wounds... so even against Power Klaws I'll lose 1-2 models a turn, on average, if they charge me (which will happen with 4" movement...) For example, my last game they failed to kill that tyrant, then got locked into combat for 3 damn turns against ONE Carnifex; I got lucky with saves, so I had one left at the end, but seriously... lol.

And I'm told Chaos terminators are even a little bit worse. It seems like most people relegate their Terminators to act as Scions essentially, but for 200+ points, is it worth that?

The only Terminators worth taking are WE Terminators because that gives them the +1A and re-roll charges; kitting Terminators out with any intention other than to have them charge in is pointless when Slaanesh Oblits exist.

I have my Terminators kitted with plasm+fists and have them hunt mid-sized tanks and multi-wound elite units whilst my Berzerkers hunt infantry and my Scorpion pops big models. The Terminators still aren't star players but it moves them from trash tier to usable tier.

 lindsay40k wrote:
@techsoldaten - yeah, that’s pretty much how I’m going to use them - drop turn one, EC and focus on screens, beg my opponent to shoot at them and give me extra Prescience shots, then a Plasma squad to rapid fire at a target that’s lost its screen.

Interesting trick with the Kharybdis. I think I’ll give it a miss, though - I’m playing with friends and it’s an interpretation that seems to miss RAI.

Yeah, but GW has had plenty of time to FAQ it. It's a fair interpretation, because you are trading massive damage on a vehicle for a character kill. Your opponent isn't really getting screwed.

The vehicles that a KAC can reliably kill are Razorbacks. Not sure about your local meta, but mine is filled with of Razorback / Assault Cannon spam.

The KAC is very good at killing them, and one of the tactics I used was to charge one, kill it with the Melta Cutters, then consolidate into combat with the next one. The huge base makes it easy to get just inside 3 inches of anything nearby the charge target.

Opponents tend to fall back with Razorbacks and hopes to shoot the KAC to death. That's actually very hard to do, and gives you the chance for multiple charges without having to use the struts. There was one game I played (and only one, not like this happens often) where this worked magnificently, wiping out 4 Razorbacks in cc with the KAC.

Also remember it has Machine Malifica. You can move up a tier in damage between turns if you are lucky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zid wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Zid wrote:
A TDA Lord can work in Death Guard, but in CSM jump lords are better overall. a 2+/5++ doesn't save a lord anyway, they die just as quickly with the TDA as without most games, IMO. As well, they are SOOOO SLOW. I never thought 4" movement would be that much of an impediment, but it really is; half the time they need extremely good assault rolls to get where they need to. I'd say they'd be much better if they could get the benefits of the Codex they are from (DG Sorcerers get the +1T/DR, 1k Sorc get +1 Invun/more spells, etc.). As is, I built several sorcs to support my blightlords, and I now find myself shelving terminators in general for some more Poxwalkers and two Demon Princes, they are just so much better!

Re: shelving Terminators - how much of that is due to massed infantry in general, as opposed to problems with the Terminators? I get it that they are slow, but aren't there situations where they would be handy to have around? Are you finding they are entirely outclassed?

So this is my opinion JUST using Blightlord terminators;
1) WS 3 is bad if they don't have someone where to help them reroll (i.e. a prince or lord). I have found that I miss way too many swings.
2) They need a LOT of support to make back their points against most elites; for example, I charged 5 Blightlords buffed with Blades and Vitality into a Hive Tyrant that had been death hexed. Wounding on 3's is great, right? Well they didn't kill the tyrant; as a matter of fact, they only did 5 wounds, 2 of which were mortal wounds from 6's. This required 2 buffs from a nurgle sorc, and warptime from a tzeentch sorc.
3) 2 wounds isn't a whole lot.
4) They have a pitiful amount of attacks for an "elite" unit. 2 attacks per model, 3 for the champ... thats really low when you compare it to a blob of 30 bloodletters that costs LESS.
5) They try to be where you can make them "melee" or "shooty", but they don't do either better than a lot of options.

My findings are, point for point, you just have better things to spend your points on. As well, the stuff I geared my unit to kill (elites, monsters), they failed at doing consecutively each game. As well, they are pretty fragile; a 2+/4++ w/ DR sounds great, except when you think about it a lot of stuff does 2 or more wounds... so even against Power Klaws I'll lose 1-2 models a turn, on average, if they charge me (which will happen with 4" movement...) For example, my last game they failed to kill that tyrant, then got locked into combat for 3 damn turns against ONE Carnifex; I got lucky with saves, so I had one left at the end, but seriously... lol.

And I'm told Chaos terminators are even a little bit worse. It seems like most people relegate their Terminators to act as Scions essentially, but for 200+ points, is it worth that?

I get it. One thing I'm hoping to see eventually is for Terminators to get 3 wounds a piece (maybe 4 for GK Paladins.) Making them a little tougher would make them more worth it.

There's just too much AP -3 multiwound weapons around. The second wound is nice, but it really only counts against small arms fire. Terminators should be able to shrug off a plasma shot, at least the elite ones like Blightlords should. They should be as tough as a GK Paladin.

What's the consensus on the best way to counter - 3 altioic fliers. Smite spam seems to have been tabled with the beta rules - foetid bloat drone with spewers? Are there other good options?