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2nd place army at Adepticon was a Chaos force. 3 detachments, Black Legion, Thousand Sons and Death Guard.

4th place was Death Guard, which was really 5 PBC and a bunch of Daemons.

The second place list can be seen here:

https://miniheadquarters.com/rosters/details/3-adepticon-black-legion

It's the most interesting. Lots to unpack.

1) Abaddon + DP + 115 cultists in the Black Legion detachment.

2) TS detachment was Ahriman and 30 Tzaangors. Also included min-sized Cultists to get Battalion.

3) DG was a DP and Typhus along with 3 squads of Poxwalkers.

So, massed cheap infantry along with a powerhouse HQs FTW. Makes you wonder why we bring anything else.

 techsoldaten wrote:
So, massed cheap infantry along with a powerhouse HQs FTW. Makes you wonder why we bring anything else.

Yeah, I'm slowly learning that any expensive models with more than 10 wounds this edition are not worth taking competitively. Massed infantry with either a lot of shooting or a CQC bomb is where it's at.

Abigail giving the free morale pass was likely a clincher in choosing Black Legion. Otherwise the benefit is too lame.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Abigail giving the free morale pass was likely a clincher in choosing Black Legion. Otherwise the benefit is too lame.

I think rerolling all misses may have played a role in the choice of Abaddon. That would have been crucial.

I think advance + shoot may have played a part. 2 of those squads are autoguns.

Huh. No flamers, no nothing. Typhus-powered Poxwalker farm?

lol just came back from a small 25 person tourney today

one of the dudes was rocking 120 cultists, abby and 9 obilts with the tree an a load of nurglings... was horrible.

I played horror, tzangor with enlightened spam... i didn't get past turn one. some pics... really was horrible to face with my poor dg (i took a club list for the lols)

horde lots of shots and strat/buff/psy auras is the win in 40k now... unless the faq does something (like make auras have to encompass the whole unit) otherwise its here to stay

IMO tanks need some means to just barge through a crowd

Like maybe if you could wound on a 2+ without weapon buffs, you can simply push models aside to get out

I play several horde armies and it’s ridiculous how easily a good charge can envelop a large model

The pile-on rules don’t help. If you move 2.9” perpendicular to a model and 0.1” towards, it’s legit. So easy to abuse and get a base to overlap

Running one over every other turn is clearly nowhere near approximating the moment when landship meets cannon fodder

So are these lists great in tournament setting because games go 3 turns and just sit on objectives or is there a different aspect here? I feel like a lot of armies run flier spam/and or can fall back and shoot which would be hard for these lists to deal with over more than 4 turns. Even 240 cultist shots into an altioac flier sitting at -2 or -3 to hit will barely dent it -

240 * 1/6 * 1/3 and then any saves lets say a 4+ goes to about 7 wounds for all that daka unsaved. I realize the results may be slightly more favorable with prescience (conditional) and VOTLW but this also assumes cultists can get in range even with warptime (12 inch move ?) It seems like dark reapers could just sit out of range and fire tempest launchers and nuke it one squad at a time to prevent tide of traitors.

The sad thing is its both.

If it goes more than 2-3 turns they'v outshot you with mega buffs and weight of fire

if it goes 2ish turns they win because board control.

8th codex rules implant is wrong that's all, cheap infantry you can deploy tons and matches last few turns, the system which permit you use multiple detachments (so tons and tons of repeated cheaps troops) put the nail in the coffin, That said now hordes have the upper hands in particular if you can bring some decent firepower with it.imho

One problem is that the weakness of hordes (extra casualties from morale losses) is so easy to negate. It’s like if vehicles and monsters could put a character nearby that nullified multiple damage weapons.

that's main reason why this is the horde's edition, in most cases. add the fact they are usually very cheap and troops and you have the whole picture, see Nanavati list for example 115 fearless cultists 25 tzangors and 30 poxwalkers 160 infantry models taking the whole board and mostly fearless.

orkswubwub wrote:
So are these lists great in tournament setting because games go 3 turns and just sit on objectives or is there a different aspect here? I feel like a lot of armies run flier spam/and or can fall back and shoot which would be hard for these lists to deal with over more than 4 turns. Even 240 cultist shots into an altioac flier sitting at -2 or -3 to hit will barely dent it -

240 * 1/6 * 1/3 and then any saves lets say a 4+ goes to about 7 wounds for all that daka unsaved. I realize the results may be slightly more favorable with prescience (conditional) and VOTLW but this also assumes cultists can get in range even with warptime (12 inch move ?) It seems like dark reapers could just sit out of range and fire tempest launchers and nuke it one squad at a time to prevent tide of traitors.

You won’t shoot down the flyers as often as you will smite spam them from behind the horde screen. There are usually 3 Daemon princes with the rabble. Typhus, Ahriman make 5 smites and then a DP charge into flyers. Yes you can also plink a few wounds with cultists shooting. Everything wounds everything and morale loses can be mitigated to easily for large units. Then Tide of Traiters recycles the whole mob.

Also cutlists don’t need to shoot a flier down. They just need to get to the objective and sit there. No eldar flier can kill 40 cultists in less than a few turns.

Now that everyone knows feculant gnarlmaw is the bomb.com What is the best way to run oblits? Anticipating they will get shot the turn after they drop - gnarlmaw does give a sweet "0+" save - but slaanesh lets you fire twice (+/- VOTLW) but comes at the price of 2 CP.

Assuming you are running them as a 3x3 in alpha - 2x nurgle and 1 slaanesh? Or 2 slaanesh and 1 nurgle? It may depend on the makeup of the remaining force but I am trying to understand point for point the value of nurgle oblits (with maw) vs slaanesh.

This is a list a dude at the last tourney i was at was running


Used the nurglings for first deplpy board control
abby with the cultists for fearless re-roll bubble

deep strike in the tree and obilts

orkswubwub wrote:
Now that everyone knows feculant gnarlmaw is the bomb.com What is the best way to run oblits? Anticipating they will get shot the turn after they drop - gnarlmaw does give a sweet "0+" save - but slaanesh lets you fire twice (+/- VOTLW) but comes at the price of 2 CP.

Assuming you are running them as a 3x3 in alpha - 2x nurgle and 1 slaanesh? Or 2 slaanesh and 1 nurgle? It may depend on the makeup of the remaining force but I am trying to understand point for point the value of nurgle oblits (with maw) vs slaanesh.

2 Nurgle 1 Slaanesh will be good. You don’t want everyone crowded in one place - there’s AOE Stratagems out there that some people might use for 0+ busting, and there’ll be times when you need to hit something out of reach of the tree’s... leaves

Plus, tree castling is exactly the sort of thing that metagames adapt to dealing with


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What amazes me about the cultist hordes is the lack of flamers and whatnot

Well you add them in and that's like 60 pts you spent which is another unit of them or nurglings.

How are you finding Renegades & Heretics in your Chaos soup lists?

I am really considering buying 3 Basilisk/Russ models, but I don't like that I have no way to buff them or synergize. I'm also considering 15 marauders with 6 sniper rifles since everyone else seems to have ways to kill my HQ before they get to their units. Can R&H use AM strategems?

I started reading this thread before the Malefic Lord nerf and luckily they got updated before i finished and bought 12.

I am a fairly new player that has only played in one (albeit wonky with some crazy vestigal 7th ed house rules) tournament and one fate of Kondor or w/e that was event. I play Word Bearers (cuz flavor) and sone Daemons, and I have about 4500 pts of built and primered models (i like assembling and playing and painting takes so gd long). I mostly play friends and family.

I find my army lacking, still, anything that really forces my opponent out of their deployment zone. In that "tournament" I did ok, but not great, better than I expected.

This thread is awesome and I relish surfing it nightly. I appreciate the civil discussion, feedback, and tips.

Renegades and Heretics is like wanting the Blood Pact and getting Brain Boys instead.

I just use an R&H detachment occasionally for the Earthshaker Cannons. Like you said, they don't synergize with anything else. While the indirect fire is nice, their shots are very imprecise and they don't add much to most armies.

Were there a way to buff their BS, they would be awesome.

I ran 3 basilisks against Tau once, and they caused maybe 1 wound over the 2 turns I got to shoot them (game ended early). Crummy rolls on my part combined with great rolls for the Tau player. Very few hits, regardless.

However, to make a true Vraks-style list, I'm gonna be running Zhufor, Chaos Terminators, Berzerkers in Dreadclaws, Cultists, and Renegade Ogryns running up the board. It will be glorious.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I ran 3 basilisks against Tau once, and they caused maybe 1 wound over the 2 turns I got to shoot them (game ended early). Crummy rolls on my part combined with great rolls for the Tau player. Very few hits, regardless.

However, to make a true Vraks-style list, I'm gonna be running Zhufor, Chaos Terminators, Berzerkers in Dreadclaws, Cultists, and Renegade Ogryns running up the board. It will be glorious.

Thanks for that. The bat reps i watch with AM Basilisks do ok/good for 100 points but their rerolling 1's is critical. Anyone else have an experience with them?

Or renegade Russes?

Also, forgive this noob, but can R&H use AM strategems?

And that list does sound like fun.

 Latro_ wrote:
Well you add (Flamers to Cultists) and that's like 60 pts you spent which is another unit of them or nurglings.

True. I guess my perspective is coloured by years of trying to make Termagants an inviting target. An approach I’ve carried over to a Chaos Soup list; Blightbringer and WB Warptimer help 40 DG Cultists get up close, they inflict 4D6 hits, with a Poxwalkers unit behind them popping flies & walking dead. Enemy has to deal with the Cultists, but charging gets them hit by another 4D6, and any cultist casualty turns into a Poxwalker. Contributes to screen clearance, and threat overload. Probably not a tourney play but the ‘hordes make games end early’ point above reminds me of why I’m not into full competitive. It feels like trying to speedrun by playing with clipping bugs, I can see the appeal but it’s not my thing

R&H don’t have access to AM stratagems, or any of their own (beyond the 3 in the rulebook). Kind of a lame army, in the classic and modern sense of the word.

The flamers are never in range of anything if you Tide of Traitors off to the side somewhere. I've played lists with and without. The flamers help against (some) overwatch and against daemons for my games mostly. They did manage to scorch an unfortunate Librarian my last game. But when it comes to list building its something I'll add in if I have extra pts to spend.

R&H were alright when we had templates and low ballistic skill didn't matter when shooting lots of large templates at hordes, but now that we actually have to roll to hit: they're worse than Orks.

I wish we could get back Ordanance Tyrant so we could... No that's a lie, I wish they'd bring back templates!

Aren't R&H Marauder squads quite cheap? With Stalker-Specialists & 3 plasma weapons it's 63 points i believe. And Disciples can have Heavy weapons team that have BS 3+, so Veterans for less points with lower min. models per unit.

2 plasma guns and a pistol, but yeah. A literal handful of decent units, but not a real, thought-out army list.

So have a couple of knights in my IW army was thinking off adding another to do an actual army of them.

First one is dual gatling other one is dual battle cannons
was thinking of running the FW Styrix then buff the army out with chaffe.

Was wondering if you rank three knights how would you do it?

Dunno about Knights, sorry

R&H do have access to a fairly cheap MSU unit that uses cover well and can bring a couple of sniper rifles

Snipers aren’t brilliant this edition, but they can force supporting characters to keep their heads down and now that I think about it have really good synergy with the Daemons strat that makes PotW do double damage

Most of the games I play are 50pow/1Kpts after work all comers at the store. The local meta’s pretty heavy on the dense gunlines at the moment, quite a lot of Tau trying out their new bags of tricks and some shooty Eldar as well. Also the odd IG army. Everybody trying to use character auras. What this means is an environment where nobody’s too worried about deep strikers and infiltrating screening units seem to be seen as a waste of points that could buy another big gun. I’ve been bringing along a Word Bearers list that was mainly written with quick games in mind (my Tyranid hordes rarely got to third turn before store close):

Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh with Warptime and Prescience
Helbrute with Twin Las, Fist
Helbrute with Reaper, ML
10 Terminators with 2 Heavy Flamers, 4 Plasma, 4 Melta, Icon of Wrath

Drop in, use a CP to make sure Warptime goes off (sometimes conga lining to avoid DTW coverage), try to get Prescience too, if I didn’t need to pop a CP for casting then use VotL in shooting or fight phase, after making attacks with Terminators invite opponent to convert to Lorgarian Polytheism. If declined, burn 3CP on Wrath of Khorne to hit them again and move another 6”, locking pretty much everything in combat

It’s going through this environment like a wrecking ball through a greenhouse. I’m going to give it one more week, then change out to Death Guard for a bit to (1) avoid being TFGal in friendlies, and (2) let the metagame adapt to the appearance of these predators. If I don’t start seeing Kroot, Rangers, and Ratlings, then I’ll break out a Hive Fleet Kraken Swarmlord and drown them in Genestealers until they get them message about screening