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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Kharybdis instantly became absolute trash. Thanks for ruining my $200 investment GW...

It either is forced to Turn 1 drop into my deployment... which is absurd, or its giant foot-print ensures from Turn 2 onward it should have almost no decent placement... PLUS it cannot be warp-timed into a remotely useful one.

Absolutely decimated the viability of this one... wow.

The rules team definitely overreached on Warptime. Feels like they are trying to limit the impact of alpha strikes and did not consider the impact this rule has on this unit.

I used to use the KAC to drop 20 Noise Marines, and think that's still a viable tactic. HOWEVER, the Warptime nerf means that KAC is now exposed to a turn of shooting.

Forget about what damage it could have done with cc attacks, it just doesn't have the save / wounds to justify costing close to the same as a Land Raider.

I would feel differently about it if the KAC had the Fly keyword for a -1 to hit, but this is ridiculous.

I'm curious why they changed Unstoppable Ferocity, it seems more of a nerf towards Greater Khorne Daemons than Letters & DP's.

I’m not certain that KAC is worthless:

Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements has another unit embarked inside it which must disembark after it has been set up (such as units embarked within a Drop Pod, or
a Tyrannocyte), can the firing unit shoot at the unit as
it disembarks?
A: No – though the unit can shoot at the Drop Pod/ Tyrannocyte before the units inside disembark

We can use it to get a unit of Noise Marines into range of a Dark Reaper castle.

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
I'm curious why they changed Unstoppable Ferocity, it seems more of a nerf towards Greater Khorne Daemons than Letters & DP's.

OOOOOOOH! I was so confused about this change... like it didn't seem to make a difference. But +1S and +1S for melee weapons are very different when your melee weapon provides x2 user Str. Pft, it was a puny nerf to the Bloodthirster. Thanks for making this comment.

 Kharneth wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
I'm curious why they changed Unstoppable Ferocity, it seems more of a nerf towards Greater Khorne Daemons than Letters & DP's.

OOOOOOOH! I was so confused about this change... like it didn't seem to make a difference. But +1S and +1S for melee weapons are very different when your melee weapon provides x2 user Str. Pft, it was a puny nerf to the Bloodthirster. Thanks for making this comment.

And Skarbrand... which i just bought.. and painted.. so, i need multiple Herald's to get the old Skarbrand. narf.

Hmm. The only real question I had was whether VOTLW was still active when you shoot again with Endless Cacophony.

The whole, until the end of the phase vs at the end of the phase debacle.

I'm still thinking of Alpha striking units that could take the place of oblits, first one that comes to my mind is Myphitic Blight-Haulers. You could effectively deploy three on the line with a jump pack sorc. Move them flat out 10", then warptime them with jump sorc so they get up the field another 10". Then you have 3 multi meltas, and either 3 str 8 -4 d6 dmg or 3D6 - 1 dmg shots to help blow up big stuff or chaff. Not to mention you can prescience them to give them 2+ BS.

Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?

Dactylartha wrote:
Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?

Certainly looks that way.

Plus side, using God mark keywords as the second common faction keyword means chaos can still soup up a bit.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?

Certainly looks that way.

Plus side, using God mark keywords as the second common faction keyword means chaos can still soup up a bit.

Also, Heretic Astartes for multi-legion detachments with mixed gods.

quite funny how they have messed around the fire raptor first it was 250 then it was 190 now its 290... like MAKE UP your mind GW

11 attack WE scourge dread is fun now i guess

It looks like every single FAQ is getting updated.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_chaos-1.pdf

Welp looks like my warp talons wont be deepstriking anytime soon.

weaksauce.

Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.

Maybe Combi-Flamer, Bolt pistol & Chainswords, it's "only" 135 points.

Dactylartha wrote:
Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?

Looking at the examples given with Assassins: if you have a CHAOS Warlord, I believe you can have the following army:

CHAOS - HERETIC ASTARTES Battalion
Kharn (CHAOS Warlord), Fabius Bile, 3 Berzerkers units
- Kharn and the Berzerkers still get their WE traits, as Fabius does not break LEGION purity; CSM Stratagems are unlocked

CHAOS - CHAOS DAEMONS Spearhead
Lord of Change, Burning Chariot, Skull Cannon, Exalted Seeker Chariot
- no DEITY purity Loci, but CHAOS DAEMONS Stratagems are unlocked

CHAOS - NURGLE Outriders
Word Bearers Lord on Palanquin (Murder Sword), Death Guard Bloat-drone, Plague Toad unit, Black Legion bikers unit with MoN
- the Lord and Bikers can use their LEGION Stratagems due to having a HA detachment in the army, HA Warlord unlocks the HA Relic, the Plague Toads can use CD Stratagems also, but the Bloat-drone doesn't unlock DG Strats and there’s no LEGION or DEITY traits for anyone

CHAOS - FALLEN Vanguard
Cypher, 3 Fallen units
- nothing to note

This and an auxiliary detachment are the only way to fit Fallen into a Battle-forged army. It doesn’t seem to match RAI as to how they don’t affect Detachment purity for LEGION traits, but there you go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.

Maybe Combi-Flamer, Bolt pistol & Chainswords, it's "only" 135 points.

So guess who spent a month on a unit of Breacher Chosen without melee weapons

Oh, well, I can say the shields count as chainswords. They’re only there for the Plasma anyway

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
I'm curious why they changed Unstoppable Ferocity, it seems more of a nerf towards Greater Khorne Daemons than Letters & DP's.

OOOOOOOH! I was so confused about this change... like it didn't seem to make a difference. But +1S and +1S for melee weapons are very different when your melee weapon provides x2 user Str. Pft, it was a puny nerf to the Bloodthirster. Thanks for making this comment.

And Skarbrand... which i just bought.. and painted.. so, i need multiple Herald's to get the old Skarbrand. narf.

Buff to mounted units.

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.

Maybe Combi-Flamer, Bolt pistol & Chainswords, it's "only" 135 points.

Only 135 points to deal enough damage to kill 1 unit of Cultists within 12 inches. 2 units if you charge a different one after killing the first. Doesn't seem worth it to me. A mixed unit that has two - three dedicated melee models and two - three dedicated ranged models might be better, but still overshadowed by other more specialized (and therefore cheaper) units.

Wargington wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
I'm curious why they changed Unstoppable Ferocity, it seems more of a nerf towards Greater Khorne Daemons than Letters & DP's.

OOOOOOOH! I was so confused about this change... like it didn't seem to make a difference. But +1S and +1S for melee weapons are very different when your melee weapon provides x2 user Str. Pft, it was a puny nerf to the Bloodthirster. Thanks for making this comment.

And Skarbrand... which i just bought.. and painted.. so, i need multiple Herald's to get the old Skarbrand. narf.

Buff to mounted units.

So.. Juggernauts. S8 on the charge, S6 if charged. Compared to the loss of S16 on Bloodthirsters & Skarbrand, i dunno. Not that impressive, they're still quite expensive imho.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Spoiler:

Dactylartha wrote:
Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?

Looking at the examples given with Assassins: if you have a CHAOS Warlord, I believe you can have the following army:

CHAOS - HERETIC ASTARTES Battalion
Kharn (CHAOS Warlord), Fabius Bile, 3 Berzerkers units
- Kharn and the Berzerkers still get their WE traits

CHAOS - CHAOS DAEMONS Spearhead
Lord of Change, Burning Chariot, Skull Cannon, Exalted Seeker Chariot
- no DEITY purity Loci, but CHAOS DAEMONS Stratagems are unlocked

CHAOS - NURGLE Outriders
Word Bearers Lord on Palanquin (Murder Sword), Death Guard Bloat-drone, Plague Toad unit, Black Legion bikers unit with MoN
- the Lord and Bikers can use their LEGION Stratagems due to having a HA detachment in the army, HA Warlord unlocks the HA Relic, the Plague Toads can use CD Stratagems also, but the Bloat-drone can’t use DG Strats and there’s no LEGION or DEITY traits

CHAOS - FALLEN Vanguard
Cypher, 3 Fallen units
- nothing to note

This and an auxiliary detachment are the only way to fit Fallen into a Battle-forged army. It doesn’t seem to match RAI as to how they don’t affect Detachment purity for LEGION traits, but there you go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.

Maybe Combi-Flamer, Bolt pistol & Chainswords, it's "only" 135 points.

So guess who spent a month on a unit of Breacher Chosen without melee weapons

Oh, well, I can say the shields count as chainswords. They’re only there for the Plasma anyway

I COULD do a list of the sorts (though my Bearers are limited to taking Khorne daemons and/or a DP of any god, based on my inventory), but my concern is that I used the Fallen to fill out an extra slot if I needed some more cheap plasma. I don't want to have to bring all 3 of my units and Cypher because they take up a detachment and don't get to be targeted by strategems or spells. It is fun in small games to have that detachment, but it's no real help when my primary opponents are Necron and Blood Angels. /complaint

Well, I play 3 different Black Legion lists.

- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)

One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)

Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, I play 3 different Black Legion lists.

- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)

One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)

Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.

well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.

 blackmage wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, I play 3 different Black Legion lists.

- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)

One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)

Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.

well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on.

Well, and Kharybdis went from a fun/good unit to just absolute trash in an instant. Glad I spent $200+ on it recently...

Alpha legion seems an even more of a must competitively assuming beta rules in effect. Any thoughts on rolling a "value" squad of khorne zerkers in alpha strike? With the new rule some armies may move away from infiltrators which will let the zerkers set up close and tight. If you manage yourself with less drops (everyone is going to be going 2-3 x battalion with the new CP rules) - you can get the charge off easy on the infiltrate and suddenly your opponent has to deal with zerkers (for example my tau friend no longer wants tau sept for overwatch but would rather take the 6 inch extra range). 140ish points plus a CP were a big investment before - but with every army using 13+ CP now - maybe a small gamble with high dividends?

this is what wh40k is now, reason why i almost stopped playing it and the rare times i platìy i use what i have i refuse to buy something which next month become trash

 andysonic1 wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.

Maybe Combi-Flamer, Bolt pistol & Chainswords, it's "only" 135 points.

Only 135 points to deal enough damage to kill 1 unit of Cultists within 12 inches. 2 units if you charge a different one after killing the first. Doesn't seem worth it to me. A mixed unit that has two - three dedicated melee models and two - three dedicated ranged models might be better, but still overshadowed by other more specialized (and therefore cheaper) units.

Combi-bolter/Chainsword. 90 points for 20 shots at 12" and then 3 attacks per model.

Funnily enough this is one of the best melee setups in the Vanilla Loyalist Codex. Let that sink in for a bit...

 blackmage wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, I play 3 different Black Legion lists.

- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)

One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)

Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.

well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.

Hypex Reavers move+advance 28" - hell, even Slaanesh Maulerfiends can still charge T1. If you haven't played with deepstriking/infiltrating CQC units till now, you probably know how to charge a gunline T1.

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, I play 3 different Black Legion lists.

- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)

One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)

Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.

well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.

Hypex Reavers move+advance 28" - hell, even Slaanesh Maulerfiends can still charge T1. If you haven't played with deepstriking/infiltrating CQC units till now, you probably know how to charge a gunline T1.

Renagade bikes and various other units can easily get t1 charges.

kinda sad on the warp talons. deep striking to deny overwatch was their only real sthick. and without warp time its kinda meh. (otherwise its ok for a jump pack unit with a butt load of lightning claws just a shame their main niche got weaker)

 Desubot wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, I play 3 different Black Legion lists.

- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)

One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)

Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.

well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.

Hypex Reavers move+advance 28" - hell, even Slaanesh Maulerfiends can still charge T1. If you haven't played with deepstriking/infiltrating CQC units till now, you probably know how to charge a gunline T1.

Renagade bikes and various other units can easily get t1 charges.

kinda sad on the warp talons. deep striking to deny overwatch was their only real sthick. and without warp time its kinda meh. (otherwise its ok for a jump pack unit with a butt load of lightning claws just a shame their main niche got weaker)

is not the same.... before DS units was safer from 1st turn retalations they dropped at 9" fire (if they can) then charge often helped by psyschic powers/special rules/equipments now that is completely (beside genestealer cult) gone,, now if you want charge 1st turn you must put units on table that mean if you go second you might lost them... then good luck

 blackmage wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, I play 3 different Black Legion lists.

- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)

One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)

Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.

well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.

Hypex Reavers move+advance 28" - hell, even Slaanesh Maulerfiends can still charge T1. If you haven't played with deepstriking/infiltrating CQC units till now, you probably know how to charge a gunline T1.

Renagade bikes and various other units can easily get t1 charges.

kinda sad on the warp talons. deep striking to deny overwatch was their only real sthick. and without warp time its kinda meh. (otherwise its ok for a jump pack unit with a butt load of lightning claws just a shame their main niche got weaker)

is not the same.... before DS units was safer from 1st turn retalations they dropped at 9" fire (if they can) then charge often helped by psyschic powers/special rules/equipments now that is completely (beside genestealer cult) gone,, now if you want charge 1st turn you must put units on table that mean if you go second you might lost them... then good luck

But outside of a few armies. no one can deep strike alpha ether so the only alpha strike left are the long range imperial guard and... what else? (honestly what are people expecting now to deal with)
edit quote fail.

Dactylartha wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Spoiler:

Dactylartha wrote:
Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?

Looking at the examples given with Assassins: if you have a CHAOS Warlord, I believe you can have the following army:

CHAOS - HERETIC ASTARTES Battalion
Kharn (CHAOS Warlord), Fabius Bile, 3 Berzerkers units
- Kharn and the Berzerkers still get their WE traits

CHAOS - CHAOS DAEMONS Spearhead
Lord of Change, Burning Chariot, Skull Cannon, Exalted Seeker Chariot
- no DEITY purity Loci, but CHAOS DAEMONS Stratagems are unlocked

CHAOS - NURGLE Outriders
Word Bearers Lord on Palanquin (Murder Sword), Death Guard Bloat-drone, Plague Toad unit, Black Legion bikers unit with MoN
- the Lord and Bikers can use their LEGION Stratagems due to having a HA detachment in the army, HA Warlord unlocks the HA Relic, the Plague Toads can use CD Stratagems also, but the Bloat-drone can’t use DG Strats and there’s no LEGION or DEITY traits

CHAOS - FALLEN Vanguard
Cypher, 3 Fallen units
- nothing to note

This and an auxiliary detachment are the only way to fit Fallen into a Battle-forged army. It doesn’t seem to match RAI as to how they don’t affect Detachment purity for LEGION traits, but there you go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.

Maybe Combi-Flamer, Bolt pistol & Chainswords, it's "only" 135 points.

So guess who spent a month on a unit of Breacher Chosen without melee weapons

Oh, well, I can say the shields count as chainswords. They’re only there for the Plasma anyway

I COULD do a list of the sorts (though my Bearers are limited to taking Khorne daemons and/or a DP of any god, based on my inventory), but my concern is that I used the Fallen to fill out an extra slot if I needed some more cheap plasma. I don't want to have to bring all 3 of my units and Cypher because they take up a detachment and don't get to be targeted by strategems or spells. It is fun in small games to have that detachment, but it's no real help when my primary opponents are Necron and Blood Angels. /complaint

Oh, I agree, it’s not an ideal fix by any means and it’s certainly going to create problems for a lot of perfectly fluffy lists. (Especially given the explicit ‘Fallen and Cypher don’t break LEGION purity’ rule.)

Imperium players are going to have similar issues. It’s going to be an Execution Force or nothing, for some Assassin fans. But! Don’t forget: you can pay a CP - of which more are available, if you dig Battalions - to take an Auxiliary Detachment. Again, not an ideal fix. Certainly not if you’re doing an event list with restrictions on number of Detachments. But it is a way that a solo ‘wildcard’ unit can be fielded, and it’s a compromise that I suspect will mainly be taken up by corpse-botherers who really like a lone Inquisitor (seriously, their list is now a train wreck) or Vindicare.

It’s also an option if one wants to take a single Daemon character for an aura to benefit their Daemon Astartes units, for instance a Herald on Steed of Slaanesh to run alongside Maulerfiends and let them charge after advancing. (The Warptime nerf puts a new light on this trick.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here’s what the changes to Chosen mean:
- approaching parity with Veterans and Wolf Guard as a melee unit, if you ignore the lack of access to storm shields and jump packs; still, as a counter-charge unit, a load of 2A power axes isn’t terrible
- EC access to Chainaxes, if your quartermaster is a miser who won’t let you take power axes
- your combi-plasma squad just got +1A each for free, I mean, come on, that’s not terrible, sure you’re not using them to Leroy Jenkins a gunline but if you have a bad turn then you’ll give a counter unit a bigger nosebleed