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I dunno, I really feel like this whole thread is a joke. I haven't seen any more Chaos players complaining than sisters or regular SM, or Tau (granted he does post a lot so it might seem over inflated). Care to give an example of a thread where this is the case? Don't. I will just give examples where others have done so as well. Everybody's army got vanillaed until the codexes come out. Just be a bit patient.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay-can we agree that that's NOT COOL, and should be changed?

Because you seemed to be endorsing it, which now appears to be me misreading it.

My apologies, certainly not my intent. Yes i agree it's not cool and should be changed. I've thought that way for a long time now. It's the big thing stopping me right now from getting back into 40k - i want things to be different, but so far haven't seen any sign of it. :(

We could, you know, be in this together. Rather than saying "you shouldn't complain because you lost your toys just like everyone else", ask why there was removal in the first place? Why did Orks lose their Clan rules from 3rd ed, why did Eldar get consolidated (I get "because codex swaps" but still), why they scrapped Doctrines for Guard rather than thinking about rebalancing them in a way that wasn't 100% no-brainer ("hmm, do I take Drop Troops or Warrior Weapons?")

Scrapping everything from the get go is going to leave people sour, be they folks with Ard Boyz, Palanquin Heralds, Vendettas, etc. Strict removal of options is one of the reasons nobody took 4e Chaos seriously as that codex really didn't have anything going for it other than Lash for noobslays. Sad.

...Why would Chaos be getting nothing? Chaos is getting a load of things. PotMS. Price drops. Vastly cheaper MCs. Non-psychic shooting attacks on Daemons. Terminators that aren't forced to spend twenty points on a powerfist (grr). Hellchickens with the power to flutter around mangling aircraft/skimmers. A bonus Fight phase a turn for Berzerker units.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Why would Chaos be getting nothing? Chaos is getting a load of things. PotMS. Price drops. Vastly cheaper MCs. Non-psychic shooting attacks on Daemons. Terminators that aren't forced to spend twenty points on a powerfist (grr). Hellchickens with the power to flutter around mangling aircraft/skimmers. A bonus Fight phase a turn for Berzerker units.

Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.

Terminators lost the ability to be fielded in units of 3, and the new DS restrictions will hurt their old Termicide use altogether; what's the point of using them to disrupt an opponent's plan when an entire denial grid can be strung out so easily?

Bikes lost the ability to field both pistols and close combat weapons: it's now either a pistol or a chainsword.

Helchickens...had that power and then some. They did "gain" as the ability to serve as a character-sniper.

Forgefiends lost their ability to move-and-fire.

The real winner fwiw would be Noise Marines due to their ability to keep shooting, and Sonic Blasters becoming Assault again.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Why would Chaos be getting nothing? Chaos is getting a load of things. PotMS. Price drops. Vastly cheaper MCs. Non-psychic shooting attacks on Daemons. Terminators that aren't forced to spend twenty points on a powerfist (grr). Hellchickens with the power to flutter around mangling aircraft/skimmers. A bonus Fight phase a turn for Berzerker units.

Well, in addittion to the ones MagicJugglerMade already said:

Terminators cant be only 3. Not just for price, now you cant put a lord with a terminator unit inside a land raider.


The lsot of marks. Ok, I can understand no legions since no clans/chapters. But marks??????? omg, why the hell they did such a thing? We paid for them, is not like they were free. Also is antilore that a theench lord is the same than a khorne one.

Plague marines nerfed since now cant have combat weapon, boltgun and bolter. Is important. In particular if the prices doesnt drops. They also lost fearless.

Mutilators nerfed (yes...they are worst than before, even if no one could believe hahahha)

Obliterators nerfed to the ground. They destroyed them. Now are like a bad strange autocanon (less range). But similar cost to old ones... This is huge since they were our best shot unit. Now are ***** xD

Cultist more expensive than guards....odd hahaahha.

The baleflammer is waaaaay worst. Ok, the old one is op, but the new one is really bad. A huge drop on effectivity even when the model now cost more.

The new drones are kinda bad with only those flammers as option.

Why CSM DP has no powers/buffs according to their gods like the daemon army get? That is odd xDD

Again no marks? omg. I need to repeat hahaha

Tsons are not point efective because the sorccerer. The psudosmite they have is soooo bland. Poor damage with low range and that must shoot to the most close enemy. Meh

Defiler is still bad. And with a -1 when moving on the battlecannon.

New summon is bad. To much risks for very low advantages. Not just you cant move, maybe you cant summon what you need. Since you need pay points ever all that I dont think people summon.

And sure I am missing stuff, but i am tired hahaha

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay-can we agree that that's NOT COOL, and should be changed?

Because you seemed to be endorsing it, which now appears to be me misreading it.

In any shape or form I'm endorsing it. I was just describing the reality of Warhammer 40k the Wargame. Because I can see how it works doesn't mean I'm fine with that. As I have said, I'm a Xenos player, so personally I gain nothing with the Space Marine centric vision of 40k.

Okay. That makes me feel better.

Because, despite playing Marines (both spiky and non) it's horse pucky.

Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.

On...what? Cultists? Who have free autoguns that are literally lasguns?

Terminators lost the ability to be fielded in units of 3, and the new DS restrictions will hurt their old Termicide use altogether; what's the point of using them to disrupt an opponent's plan when an entire denial grid can be strung out so easily?

Come complain about your loss of 3-model Terminator units when you can't get five Terminators for the price of three loyalist Terminators. Or, better yet, go complain at the Deathwatch (whose Terminators are now unplayably overpriced).

Bikes lost the ability to field both pistols and close combat weapons: it's now either a pistol or a chainsword.

...You do know pistol/chainsword doesn't give a bonus attack anymore, right? And having a chainsword does?

Helchickens...had that power and then some. They did "gain" as the ability to serve as a character-sniper.

They had the ability to make a fly-by attack, yes. They didn't have the ability to charge, lock a target in combat, and make a bunch of attacks with a useful AP value that did multiple wounds each.

Forgefiends lost their ability to move-and-fire.

And gained auto-succeeding IWND and way more wounds than a straight conversion implies they ought to (same AV/HP as a Dreadnaught before, now same T/Sv as a Dreadnaught but four extra Wounds). And a higher move rate. And they can totally still move and fire, it's just 2/3 the effectiveness of not moving and firing.


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Franarok wrote:
The lsot of marks. Ok, I can understand no legions since no clans/chapters. But marks??????? omg, why the hell they did such a thing? We paid for them, is not like they were free. Also is antilore that a theench lord is the same than a khorne one.

This is a weird one. I understand why they did it (if you had Marks and Cult units you could make a strong argument for needing nine versions of every Chaos unit (unmarked, 4x marked, 4x Cult) before adding Legions, at which point the permutations are just silly; and they can't delete Cult units (since there are boxes labeled "Berserkers"/"Plague Marines"/etc.), so they deleted Marks to cut down on the number of Chaos dataslates), though I don't agree with it (if I'd been writing this book I'd have done fancier Marks the way the 3.5e book did them).

Plague marines nerfed since now cant have combat weapon, boltgun and bolter. Is important. In particular if the prices doesnt drops. They also lost fearless.

I'm seeing a points drop (21 now v. 24 before). And CCW/pistol doesn't actually give an extra attack anymore, so I'm not sure how this is a nerf to Plague Marines as opposed to a nerf to everyone without chainswords.

Mutilators nerfed (yes...they are worst than before, even if no one could believe hahahha)

I'm kind of skeptical of the price hike, but at the moment the thing that annoys me the most is that the math I have to do to tell you whether I agree with you is going to be absurdly long and annoying with 27 permutations of weapon to go through.

Obliterators nerfed to the ground. They destroyed them. Now are like a bad strange autocanon (less range). But similar cost to old ones... This is huge since they were our best shot unit. Now are ***** xD

See above. Except "not sure about the price drop" instead of "skeptical about the price hike".

Cultist more expensive than guards....odd hahaahha.

...Yeah, that one has me confused too. Maybe they think the ability to have a "brutal CCW" for a bonus attack is better than we do?

The baleflammer is waaaaay worst. Ok, the old one is op, but the new one is really bad. A huge drop on effectivity even when the model now cost more.

..."OP"? Try "single-handedly removed power-armoured infantry outside of transports from all lists in 6th". (And as for "the new one is really bad" it really isn't. Gaining the ability to make 2+ armour models run screaming and get bonus auto-hits on flyers is kind of significant. It's worse at RFPing Devastator squads, better at just about everything else.)

Why CSM DP has no powers/buffs according to their gods like the daemon army get? That is odd xDD

My guess is stopgap bug. Daemons have their "Legion"/"Craftworld"/"Chapter"/whatever rules already. CSM don't. A CSM Daemon Prince has a Legion rule, which is likely to do more when full Codexes start appearing.

Tsons are not point efective because the sorccerer. The psudosmite they have is soooo bland. Poor damage with low range and that must shoot to the most close enemy. Meh

...Are we talking about the 6e Codex all of a sudden? Because the Thousand Sons I'm looking at got a pretty huge points drop (from 150 for a base squad to 112), constant-on Force, and 2+ armour against 1-damage weapons. Sure, their power is crap. The rest of the unit is a lot better.

Defiler is still bad. And with a -1 when moving on the battlecannon.

Not sure I agree on this one. I am kind of weirded out by battlecannons on BS4+ chassis after watching a Guard gunline whiff excessively, but the price hasn't changed much (it's gone from "slightly cheaper than a Land Raider" to "slightly cheaper than a Land Raider", vehicles have had a general price hike), it's a lot harder to get rid of than it used to be, and the melee hitting power lets it be an actual threat to Knights/gargantuans for a pretty reasonable pricetag.

AnomanderRake: Horrors in 4th had a S4 AP 4 assault 3 shooting attack. They were 17 ppm though. Cultists weren't in the Gav Thorpe codex (he most notably recommended using "Lesser Daemons" as counts-as).

MSU Termicide was a thing and is no longer legal. Ditto running Solo Obliterators (and Mutilators to a lesser extent); the game already added split-fire so half the advantage of MSU was already removed.

I'm aware about the Bikes. The major thing, the BP/CCW option was one of the few distinctions Chaos got in their army, alongside being able to swap out their Bike weapons for their Specials (which to be fair was still kept). I seriously doubt this was a gamebreaker, considering they lack Grav and didn't have access to Hit&Run/Skilled Riders then.

I can agree on the new psykic power stuff. Tsons are meant to be all about that, but they don't have much to play with.
This was, however, the same for AoS when it was first brought in with the new rules, but now Tzeentch has a heap of extra spells to play with. And Tsons don't suck in my mind, even with the smaller number of spells.
A unit of 10 Tsons with a reaper gun and sorcerer come to roughly the same cost as a unit of 5 basic Primaris marines and would demolish the Primaris marines.

Anyway, my point wasn't that Chaos is getting some things taken out (just like every other army including space marines), but that people have been saying that this new release is another marine release without Chaos getting anything and being pushed down again.
Yet Tsons look pretty strong, with pretty recent figures, Nurgle is getting a launch day release with more faction focused units said to be on the way, and several statements from GW explaining how Chaos is going to be the main villain of this edition, meaning almost certainly that there will be big updates across the board for figures and rules as we go deeper into the edition.
But some people don't notice that, and just notice the few things that are being taken out before all the epic new stuff is chucked in.

Everyone, including guard, have had some rule changes that make things seem less powerful. Leman Russes for example. All of their main cannons could be seen as terrible in terms of average dmg output. But we don't know how it'll compare with other armies now that EVERYONE is getting rules changes.

Anyway, I'm not mad or trying to insult people, sorry if I come out that way. I've noticed people complaining about their, "Tau being nerfed," or their, "Eldar becoming unplayable," or their, "Guard Russes becoming worthless." And I can understand it when you first look at your rules and see some rules changes that don't look great when compared to 7ed meta.
It's happened to everyone, so we should all be on a level playing field and these things people think suck, might be good in the new meta.
In any case, Chaos, as a faction, is still getting a heap of stuff in 8th, whether it start as DG getting some new plastics compared to their currently ancient kits, or your basic Chaos marines. It's still new figures for Chaos so they're still getting stuff. And this is only the first release we've seen for 8th.
I also know that it could've been normal Chaos marines that they released with the starter set instead of Nurgle, but I'm expecting normal Chaos to be updated with a new Abaddon release, who couldn't have been put in the starter box. The starter box could've been Eldar or Tau or Orks or Nids, but they did DG. So you're still getting more than the Xenos players, even if not everyone likes to play Nurgle. AoS was mostly Khorne vs Stormcast to begin with, but that's changed pretty rapidly over the last couple of years.
Just my thoughts.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Tsons don't suck in my mind, even with the smaller number of spells.
A unit of 10 Tsons with a reaper gun and sorcerer come to roughly the same cost as a unit of 5 basic Primaris marines and would demolish the Primaris marines

In your mind...

100 points of Primas Marines are the same as 245 points of Rubrics.

TS are good.

The same points cost of Primas Marines, which have double the wounds, longer range, and faster move speed, would get demolished. You realize that even if the Rubrics wound them at the same rate Rubrics still lose because they would have to do double the damage they do.

In your mind...

And no where else.

A unit of 10 Tsons with a reaper gun and sorcerer come to roughly the same cost as a unit of 5 basic Primaris marines and would demolish the Primaris marines.

a 5 man intercessor squad is only 100 points.

So... I guess I was wrong.

Thebiggesthat wrote:
Thousand Sons will get a codex, that will give them bonuses. If you are seriously suggesting that the rules you have on release day are as good as it gets for Tzeench, you are in for a suprise.

OMG I almost died laughing. You mean those gakky destiny dice, which take almost no thought to implament? Or thr fact it took them a year and a half to get around to fixing the problem. Maybe your sitting on information that we dont have yet. I hope you are other wise im definitly fethed.


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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
So... I guess I was wrong.

You were half wrong, Khorne player are ecstatic. Slaanesh players are pretty happy (assualt 3). DG players are mad they are losing some of the more iconic units. I am mad because my Sorcerer army want as few sorcerer as possible.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Yea its not like Chaos got KDK, Renegade/chaos knights, Tzeench/Thousand Sons, Traitor Legions, Death Guard...

Clearly nothing

You being ironic here?


KDK doesn't exist in 8th edition

Thousand Sons got ALL special rules removed, they're basically exactly the same as Space Marines, but worse, because space marines DO have special rules

Traitor Legions - got removed

Death Guard - got nerfed into the ground, It lost Fearless, which is HUGE in 8th edition (Space Marines got to keep their fearless)


Positive being RAPTORS ARE AWESOME NOW, they made raptors great, that is what keeps me away from being angry with this update, it's not all bad news for Chaos


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 Galas wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Clearly, the solution is, then, to say "Well, sucks to suck, guess we never get special rules unless we're Space Marines."

Or, you know, maybe GW should give EVERYONE cool and special rules.

I think the problem comes down to how players see themselves.

GW don't stop repeating how "Chaos is the big bad!" so when Chaos are treated equally bad as other non-space marine factions they feel they are more entitled to receive new kits, etc... and when they receive those they aren't enough because they aren't as much as Space Marines!

As a xenos player obviously I'll love for a less Space-Marine centric 40k.

But thats not what 40k is about. The protagonists of Warhammer 40k are Space Marines. Thats a fact. The rest of the Imperium are here just to be addons to the Space Marines narrative, and complete races like Tyranids and Orks are just here to be the NPC race for the Space Marines.

Is just being realistic. I don't go saying that Action Man receives all the atention, and call for more attention and toys for Doctor X. Because thats isn't how that "setting" is constructed.

Well it depends on which Xenos you are:


Tau kinda suffered a hit


Tyranids got hugely powerful in this edition, they have fearless now with synapse, basically a lowly Termagant unit can hold it's own vs Chaos Marines, or a Tervigon is actually capable of killing a Chaos Demon Prince in 1 go.


Necrons have ABSURD levels of survivability, much better than in 7th ed, leagues above anything their point price

 Starfarer wrote:


You said we know it for a fact we will get a codex soon. We don't. We know we will get one eventually but you're making assumptions and calling it facts.

It thought we only had Alternative Facts here in America, but apparently not.

It was mentioned at Warhammerfest, by the GW team. Already written, being playtested as we speak, with a group telecon every sunday for 4 hours going over balance. Released ' in a short space of time'

We know there is a primarch. and at least two units. It's obvious.

You don't want to back up your pant wetting with some hard cash, that's fine

Just to mention a few other things. People saying just wait for the codex. How long should I wait 1 year 2 years?

Also, people keep saying "other factions lost stuff too" okay? That doesn't change whats being argued.

"GW says the main enemy is Chaos now" wow and just take them at their word do you?

"Everyone has a bland army" Okay, and how many of those bland melee focused armies lack melee weapons?

I mean its not like Legionnares are 5 points more per model then Rubrics, but come stock with a 3+ invul save or anything. Right!?

Yeah you guys are right just gotta wait a little bit im sure they will up turn the core rules for 1 army.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.

On...what? Cultists? Who have free autoguns that are literally lasguns?

What in tarnation...

Compared to 7th, Cultists got worse. Instead of paying 4ppm and 1 for autoguns, we now pay 5ppm and can switch out our autoguns. And personally, I genuinely always preferred the CCW/pistol combo. They were never gonna outshoot anything.

Currently, a Cultist costs 25% more than a Guardsman, can't receive orders, has worse saves and LD, and has worse options, especially after we lost Marks... but hey, we can pay 75pt for a Dark Apostle to babysit them. Sure, Cultists can benefit from other character bubbles... but those are better spent on literally any other unit.

I complained about this discrepancy in 7th, and I'll keep complaining until GW makes them them the correctly costed rabble they're meant to play from a game design POV.

Bar depth, I think this is the only genuine complaint I have about the Chaos Index for now.

Edit - I'm also very apprehensive of Obliterators.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
It's not the same baseline infantry. See Grimmor's post above yours. Cultists cannot achieve what Guard can, as they do not have the same equipment or orders. To ensure there is a balanced game, you cannot have units which are objectively better costing less than the other unit. That goes against the concept of balance.

If you bothered reading my entire post you'd know that I was taking hypothetically. If the Cultists were either made to be identical to Guardsmen OR balanced against the Guardsmen, it'd instead cause an inbalance in the rules overall. Looking at a single unit in a complete vacuum without consideration of the larger faction as a whole is a fallacy a lot of people have on this forum. One of the things with Guard is that they don't have all-rounder elite infantry like Space Marines; the closest are Scions which are really expensive for what they bring to the field and not all that flexible (try putting one in fisticuffs with a space marine and see how that turns out).

It sucks to play more, yes, but looking at another faction and demanding you have the same thing while not looking at what you already have in your faction is silly and selfish. If every faction had every unit balanced against each other, the only possible way it could work out is if every faction was functionally identical (i.e: there would be only one faction) with only minor tweaks.

If you'd then continued to read a few posts down you would have realised that I addressed that point with the fact that IG have access to SM very easily with allied detachments so that completely negates that point anyway. So in otherwords, NOT looking at it in a vacuum but from a rather wider perspective than yours which only considers a single faction by itself rather than what it has access to. Go back and read it if you like.
And can we keep the personal insults out of this please? A disagreement on balance does not give you the right to start calling people selfish. CSM is my joint 3rd army after BA and Renegades, joint with Necrons, so it's not like I am hugely biased here.

Btw I would like to add - I am not complaining about 'Chaos getting nothing' here. I am aware the codexes will add flavour. I merely saw a point and commented on it, as I believe if you price a unit that is objectively in everyway better than another unit for cheaper, it goes against balance in a game like 40k where allies exist.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.

On...what? Cultists? Who have free autoguns that are literally lasguns?

What in tarnation...

Compared to 7th, Cultists got worse. Instead of paying 4ppm and 1 for autoguns, we now pay 5ppm and can switch out our autoguns. And personally, I genuinely always preferred the CCW/pistol combo. They were never gonna outshoot anything.

Currently, a Cultist costs 25% more than a Guardsman, can't receive orders, has worse saves and LD, and has worse options, especially after we lost Marks... but hey, we can pay 75pt for a Dark Apostle to babysit them. Sure, Cultists can benefit from other character bubbles... but those are better spent on literally any other unit.

I complained about this discrepancy in 7th, and I'll keep complaining until GW makes them them the correctly costed rabble they're meant to play from a game design POV.

Bar depth, I think this is the only genuine complaint I have about the Chaos Index for now.

Actually Cultists got buffed if you have someone to baby sit them and not run away


With the way wounding now works, T3 is pretty much equivalent to T4, as S4-5 weapons will be wounding you on a 3+

So we basically got a free Nurgles mark on them

They also hit T5 units on a 5+, which is a 2x probability improvement, so 10 Cultists can now contest 3 Bikers no problem when fighting for objectives and they do cost less


Then again, Guardsmen get to benefit from this as well so in relation to them, Cultists did get weaker, but they're overall better of than in 7th ed

Dovis wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.

On...what? Cultists? Who have free autoguns that are literally lasguns?

What in tarnation...

Compared to 7th, Cultists got worse. Instead of paying 4ppm and 1 for autoguns, we now pay 5ppm and can switch out our autoguns. And personally, I genuinely always preferred the CCW/pistol combo. They were never gonna outshoot anything.

Currently, a Cultist costs 25% more than a Guardsman, can't receive orders, has worse saves and LD, and has worse options, especially after we lost Marks... but hey, we can pay 75pt for a Dark Apostle to babysit them. Sure, Cultists can benefit from other character bubbles... but those are better spent on literally any other unit.

I complained about this discrepancy in 7th, and I'll keep complaining until GW makes them them the correctly costed rabble they're meant to play from a game design POV.

Bar depth, I think this is the only genuine complaint I have about the Chaos Index for now.

Actually Cultists got buffed if you have someone to baby sit them and not run away


With the way wounding now works, T3 is pretty much equivalent to T4, as S4-5 weapons will be wounding you on a 3+

So we basically got a free Nurgles mark on them

They also hit T5 units on a 5+, which is a 2x probability improvement, so 10 Cultists can now contest 3 Bikers no problem when fighting for objectives and they do cost less


Then again, Guardsmen get to benefit from this as well so in relation to them, Cultists did get weaker, but they're overall better of than in 7th ed

Tbf, everyone got this buff. Marines for example only get wounded by st 6 and 7 on a 5+ and only need a 5+ to wound a T6 or 7. Same with every other unit for comparative values. So if everyone gets the buff then that means no-one (overall) gets more powerful because of that compared to somebody else.

Personally this doesn't affect me as I always use any cultists as Renegades anyway - so I have no vested interest in this.

Dovis wrote:



Actually Cultists got buffed if you have someone to baby sit them and not run away


With the way wounding now works, T3 is pretty much equivalent to T4, as S4-5 weapons will be wounding you on a 3+

So we basically got a free Nurgles mark on them

They also hit T5 units on a 5+, which is a 2x probability improvement, so 10 Cultists can now contest 3 Bikers no problem when fighting for objectives and they do cost less


Then again, Guardsmen get to benefit from this as well so in relation to them, Cultists did get weaker, but they're overall better of than in 7th ed

That's the point though - IG got the exact same buff, and they are the logical comparison, yet are better in almost every conceivable way. I don't fancy spending a minimum of 75 points and an HQ slot on a Dark Apostle to avoid losing a few Cultists every turn.

And my Cultists largely went up by 25%, so the rule changes to Toughness were at least partially priced in.

Poly Ranger wrote:
If you'd then continued to read a few posts down you would have realised that I addressed that point with the fact that IG have access to SM very easily with allied detachments so that completely negates that point anyway. So in otherwords, NOT looking at it in a vacuum but from a rather wider perspective than yours which only considers a single faction by itself rather than what it has access to. Go back and read it if you like.
And can we keep the personal insults out of this please? A disagreement on balance does not give you the right to start calling people selfish. CSM is my joint 3rd army after BA and Renegades, joint with Necrons, so it's not like I am hugely biased here.

Btw I would like to add - I am not complaining about 'Chaos getting nothing' here. I am aware the codexes will add flavour. I merely saw a point and commented on it, as I believe if you price a unit that is objectively in everyway better than another unit for cheaper, it goes against balance in a game like 40k where allies exist.

Ran into this over the weekend, had 3 games against SM and 2 of them took the same thing 3 units of bare bones guardsman, 1 company commander, 1 lord commissar. Got 3 extra command points and plenty of chaff wounds for me to deal with. The Commissar prevented me from killing 6-7 and the rest running so had to kill 9 in each squad. Lasgun fire is a thing now if you didn't know.

The lost of the bolt guns is noticeable. Remember now you can use it at melee XD.

Also intercessors are fairly better than plague marines. Plague marines hace T5 and feel no pain. Intercessors have better morale resistance (important since plagues lost fearless), the double of wounds (huge), more range on weapons, they are faster and their weapons are ap-1.
Ah, and they can be from any chapter meanwhile plague marines only can be from death guard. A death guard that lost access to some of best chaos units: no fiends, no havoc, no bikes, no termis, no chosen.....
And the new poxwalkers and drones are bad hahaha

So the most powerful infantry chaos unit (beside termis) and "the new toy" are worst than the most basic primaris Hahahaha.

Tsons also got nerfed on the way that the unit sorcerers are terrible bad. An important point tax that is nearly useless since only know an odd version of smite. The less sorcerers a tsons army have, the better it works.... Sad

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Why would Chaos be getting nothing? Chaos is getting a load of things. PotMS. Price drops. Vastly cheaper MCs. Non-psychic shooting attacks on Daemons. Terminators that aren't forced to spend twenty points on a powerfist (grr). Hellchickens with the power to flutter around mangling aircraft/skimmers. A bonus Fight phase a turn for Berzerker units.

Lasgun-strength shooting with shotgun range, since apparently the 4e shooting profile was too good or so.

Terminators lost the ability to be fielded in units of 3, and the new DS restrictions will hurt their old Termicide use altogether; what's the point of using them to disrupt an opponent's plan when an entire denial grid can be strung out so easily?

Bikes lost the ability to field both pistols and close combat weapons: it's now either a pistol or a chainsword.

Helchickens...had that power and then some. They did "gain" as the ability to serve as a character-sniper.

Forgefiends lost their ability to move-and-fire.

The real winner fwiw would be Noise Marines due to their ability to keep shooting, and Sonic Blasters becoming Assault again.

And dont forget, Pink Horrors are now terrible Psykers, as they cast on 1 dice.

Franarok wrote:
The lost of the bolt guns is noticeable. Remember now you can use it at melee XD.

Also intercessors are fairly better than plague marines. Plague marines hace T5 and feel no pain. Intercessors have better morale resistance (important since plagues lost fearless), the double of wounds (huge), more range on weapons, they are faster and their weapons are ap-1.
Ah, and they can be from any chapter meanwhile plague marines only can be from death guard. A death guard that lost access to some of best chaos units: no fiends, no havoc, no bikes, no termis, no chosen.....
And the new poxwalkers and drones are bad hahaha

So the most powerful infantry chaos unit (beside termis) and "the new toy" are worst than the most basic primaris Hahahaha.

Tsons also got nerfed on the way that the unit sorcerers are terrible bad. An important point tax that is nearly useless since only know an odd version of smite. The less sorcerers a tsons army have, the better it works.... Sad

Yeah, that is kinda ridiculous, I get that the new Primaris Marines should have better stats, that's all understandable, but why do the COST LESS?


That is really, really ridiculous, an Intercessor is in every regard better than a Plague Marine, T5 means way, way less in this edition than the previous one, so in a sense, the Plague Marines got nerfed, while SM got an Ubermarine, that is a WTF moment indeed.


Besides good Raptors this edition on release is a huge tragedy for Chaos, near everything got relatively worse, the new stuff is pretty pathetic as well, Blight Drone would likely die to simple Guardsmen fire, come to think of it, so would Plague Marines since 1 PM = 5 Guardsmen... So it would be 5 PM vs 16 Guardsmen and 2 Autocannon crews, absolutely no chance

Heh I actually did the math on just how bad they'd lose to Guardsmen, if non considering morale shenanigans more than half the Guardsmen would survive the encounter, that's also assuming both start in range of each other and Guardsmen don't get a few free shots in with the Autocannons before Plague Marines get in range


Points wise Plague Marines are one of the worst units in game

Question here. Reading peoples posts here, I noticed that a lot are saying that codexes are coming out. Is that true?
Because at the moment, csm are like a steak with no salt or pepper on them.

Guardsmen (55 pts x 2 - 16 Guardsmen + 2 Autocannon crews) vs Plague Marines (110 pts)

==========
Guardsmen:

Lasguns
=16*0.5*0.33*0.33*0.66
0.57
Autocannons
=4*0.5*0.66*0.5*0.66
0.43

Sum - 1 Wound per turn
=========

Plague Marines

Boltgun

=5*0.66*0.66*0.66

1.43 Wound per turn


^^ Following simulation is the worst case scenario for the Guardsmen

Realistically you'd have them placed to receive cover and utilise their much longer range, due to the Autocannons, that would force Plague marines to move in


In that scenario Guardsmen trade wounds 1 for 1

Meaning you'd only lose less than a quarter of your guardsmen to kill a Plague marine squad, making the 5X more cost efective


That's not even considering that them being 2 units you can have 2 objectives covered



This begs the question - WHAT CAN'T the Emperors Sledgehammer destroy if counted per point basis


You'd easily wreck Landraiders with Guardsmen for the same pricetag, they're now great vs everything


I liked Astra Militarum before, but damn, now I'm surely enlisting

Aaaand dont forget guardsmen are cheaper than cultist!!!!! xDDDDDD

Now that any imperial can put any imperial unit....they give marines their own improved cultists xD


And yup, GW said chaos will get their super toys (guys really improved by gods). And they give us the plague marines (well, actually not new unit, just a nerfed version of an existen one).
And then you notice that our most expensive unit (beside terminators) and supposely the stronger one...is worst tan the basic primaris marines.... and that the primaris unit cost less!!!


An army of primaris marines with green paint and some green stuff conversions represents better a Nurgle army: an army of few miniatures of big guys, with grear T and wounds and specialist jobs.





But damn, and people wonder why msot chaos players complains? This is close the insult hahaha. And that when after years asking finally give the legions....BOOM, they quit them haha

But hey, all the imperium armies can mix so they can use the most point efective from each one.