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What's everyones view right now on integrating some Tzeentch daemons into the list?

I'm a big fan of Horrors, and I am wondering if it is better to do multiple Thousand Sons detachments, or to do a CD one and Thousand Sons?

Thoughts?

I do a CD battalion along with my Tson battalion, because while its not always useful the Locus from the CD detachment is sometimes quite good. From a purely power-gaming standpoint I think brimstones are still flatly superior to cultists, due to points and superior defenses. I don't need or expect my deep strike zoning squad to kill something, but if they survive something and stick around a turn, that's highly worthwhile as I can use them to deny movement again the next turn.

Pinks are a great anti-horde unit, and very solid if you aren't on the Tzaangor Tzrain. They deep strike, you pop Flickering Flames on them with a herald, and then you drop 90 shots (rerolling 1s if you brought a daemon prince) and wound most things on 2s or 3s. Well worth taking a fateskimmer as your herald and giving him Flickering Flames as his second spell slot for the one turn power play. But that's only if you want to actually invest in the CD detachment. 3 brim squads, a basic herald, and changeling is still solid for 250-odd points that gets you 3cp, especially if you want Magnus because Changeling is highly useful in keeping him alive.

the_scotsman wrote:

and at that point, you are talking about more of an investment.

Ahriman on disc is 25 pts more than an Exalted on disc, and for those 25 pts you gain: +1 invuln, a better weapon, +1 to cast, +1 power, +1 manifest and +2 denies.
Not that much of an investment and well worth it imo.

On foot it's a measly +10 points, but then as you say, one shouldn't really run Ahriman on foot.

You cant use boon of mutation on ahriman if you got him the disk though.

So, if anything, the arguement for foot exalted/ahriman is that they can get boons. and some boons are just disgustingly powerful.
The movement boon, being a "lame" one is basically half a disk for free.
the +1 casting (and the "choose any" who is basically the same) is freakishly good. and its 11/36 of the possibilities without taking rerolls into account.
The FnP and -1 to hit are both nifty defensive layers, that stack.
+1T, +1W are not bad at keeping yourself alive either.

Naturally turning into a prince aint half bad if you are an exalted. a bit more questionable if you are ahriman, and maybe not as great for well equipped terminators, and naturally you have to have a reroll at hand to avoid spawning
But overall, casting this on your termi/foothriman/footxlated is rather powerful
And you can't do it if you don't have one.

Interesting...........Its fairly random but that may have some potential.

I’d be interested to see the wording on boon! Would the character turn into daemon prince on foot? Does it specify equipment?

Also I’m still not 100% sure about daemon princes casting 2 powers is it actually confirmed?

Confiermed by many, many sources.

And the boon does not specify equipment-so go ahead and take whatever.

guys quick question: as I m currently building a thousand son army, is it worth to run chaos terminators and is it possibile to place them in the same detachment of TS or one will loose the TS chapter tactics (or whatever is called lol?).
Prescience and warp time on them seems nasty enough for me what do you think?

 MinscS2 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

and at that point, you are talking about more of an investment.

Ahriman on disc is 25 pts more than an Exalted on disc, and for those 25 pts you gain: +1 invuln, a better weapon, +1 to cast, +1 power, +1 manifest and +2 denies.
Not that much of an investment and well worth it imo.

On foot it's a measly +10 points, but then as you say, one shouldn't really run Ahriman on foot.

I'm not talking about Ahriman on disc vs exalt on disc. I would never use an exalt on disc unless I'm just playing a fun "kabal of sorcerors" list (though I am planning on doing that at some point since it'll be fun). I'm talking exalt on foot vs Ahriman on Disc, which is 45 points more.

And I also think I've mentioned that if I could take unlimited ahrimen, I would be doing that, but I can't. I get one Ahriman, and I'd rather have him making use of all those great bonuses by being up with the rest of my army, rather than having him shackled to my preds/hellforged dreads/forgefiends/etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
You cant use boon of mutation on ahriman if you got him the disk though.

So, if anything, the arguement for foot exalted/ahriman is that they can get boons. and some boons are just disgustingly powerful.
The movement boon, being a "lame" one is basically half a disk for free.
the +1 casting (and the "choose any" who is basically the same) is freakishly good. and its 11/36 of the possibilities without taking rerolls into account.
The FnP and -1 to hit are both nifty defensive layers, that stack.
+1T, +1W are not bad at keeping yourself alive either.

Naturally turning into a prince aint half bad if you are an exalted. a bit more questionable if you are ahriman, and maybe not as great for well equipped terminators, and naturally you have to have a reroll at hand to avoid spawning
But overall, casting this on your termi/foothriman/footxlated is rather powerful
And you can't do it if you don't have one.

I'd do it on a terminator though. Or a jump sorc. either of those before an exalt, just because of their mobility/starting point for combat stats.

Good point though, and something I'd definitely be making use of if I ran a Combat Sorceror list just for giggles.

The combat sorc list has a simple setup:

1) Take Ahriman
2) Take termies, jumps, and exalts on discs
3) everyone gets a different offensive power and smite, to allow you to unleash a swagtastic fullisade of psychic might on someone
4) hope that your opponent brought an elite list....

I just want to roll up with like 3 disc exalted sorcerors and Ahriman and go "Smite! Gaze! Smite! Gift! Smite! Firestorm! Smite! Doombolt!"

Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!

Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests

Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast

Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low

Watch the world burn...

Guyver 3 wrote:
Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!

Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests

Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast

Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low

Watch the world burn...

....For two weeks until the FAQ comes out.

I don't know about you, but I've already ebayed the models for a list revolving around this strategy, I figure there's no chance at all that GW doesn't clarify that the 3" range of the AOE doesn't go to 9" with the tsons chapter tactic.

the_scotsman wrote:

Guyver 3 wrote:
Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!

Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests

Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast

Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low

Watch the world burn...

....For two weeks until the FAQ comes out.

I don't know about you, but I've already ebayed the models for a list revolving around this strategy, I figure there's no chance at all that GW doesn't clarify that the 3" range of the AOE doesn't go to 9" with the tsons chapter tactic.

But what a week it’ll be...

I have the models so I’m just itching to drop this bomb on someone!

Also not forgetting magnus’ smite and the other mortal wound spells cast by ahriman, herald and exaulted sorcerer man that’s allot of mortal wounds at range 18-24

Obvious minor point for Exalted sorc over Ahriman: You get to pick the Warlord trait.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Obvious minor point for Exalted sorc over Ahriman: You get to pick the Warlord trait.

What warlord trait you would pick? Ahriman has +1 to cast 3++ invul.

Ahriman also has a better weapon and casts more powers

Yeah, Ahriman is pretty much better in every way. The reason to take exalts is pretty much "you can only have one ahriman." stuff like access to relics, choice of warlord trait, etc are kind of consolation prizes.

I'd take an exalt one of two ways:

1) The way he actually provides something compelling to an army: i've already got ahriman, I want a gunline babysitter with a +hit aura. I take an exalt, make him the warlord, give him +1 to power casts, and give him the CP stealing relic. I now have a warlord who is unlikely to die and supports my gunline units with prescience and glamour just as reliably as ahriman, at a lower cost, and I still get to have Ahriman using all his myriad bonuses elsewhere on the battlefield.

2) The "polish a turd because I like the model" way: on a disc, Seer's Bane, +1 to cast trait. Now he's ahriman's smashy baby brother! You get two beatstick casters with bonuses to cast. Note that there is objectively no reason to take this option over a daemon prince or termie sorc other than wanting to use the model, unlike option 1.

I think the only reason to take an exaulted over a daemon price is if you are really tight on points otherwise a dp will nearly always be a better choice,

For me Giving reroll 1’s and better cc ability give the exaulted an edge over basic or terminator sorcerers though!

You can spam Boon of Mutation on a Exalted on Foot as well, so there's another (slight) edge.

I'm not super hyped for Ahriman's 3++ warlord trait because hopefully (most of the time) he will be bubblewrapped and the extra 1++ isn't going to make huge difference if your opponent brought 10 sniper squads and decides he wants to see him burn. (ok slight edit: ahriman does reroll 1's which is pimp, better than I thought but not sold on this being an auto-include necessarily).

Cross comparing to the daemon codex and other CSM choices it is likely better to roll a different warlod trait (in general). For example the extra 1++ from robe makes a much bigger difference on LoC (more wounds and can't hide) than on ahriman. Just thinking an aura may be better.

From what I am seeing the pink horrors do not have the thousand sons keyword/faction word (forget the exact terminology, but TLDR it is not anywhere on thier datasheet). If a batallion includes pink horrors (as they are in the codex) is it still considered Thousand sons? Sorry for the stupid question...

To be honest I’d rather spam boon on a basic sorcerer in a tson unit it’ll hurt allot less turning him into a spawn and you gain so much more if he becomes a dp


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rereading boon it’s much better than I thought as the most average(7) roll will let you pick no3-11

the_scotsman wrote:

Guyver 3 wrote:
Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!

Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests

Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast

Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low

Watch the world burn...

....For two weeks until the FAQ comes out.

I don't know about you, but I've already ebayed the models for a list revolving around this strategy, I figure there's no chance at all that GW doesn't clarify that the 3" range of the AOE doesn't go to 9" with the tsons chapter tactic.

I dont see how this works at all, the effect and range of a spell are two different things. The range is only used on the initial cast. I don't see how you get a 9" treason.

Khalan wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Guyver 3 wrote:
Also infernal gateway has gone from a why would you ever to an auto take!

Magnus
Exaulted and Ahriman on discs
Daemon herald on disc
Use locus of conjugation stratagem to reroll psy tests

Cabal stratagem on Magnus and get him to cast infernal gateway with +4 to cast

Infernal gateway range now range 18” 9” range of effect d3 mortal on every unit and d6 on an 8+
Add gaze of fate or command rolls if the rolls are low

Watch the world burn...

....For two weeks until the FAQ comes out.

I don't know about you, but I've already ebayed the models for a list revolving around this strategy, I figure there's no chance at all that GW doesn't clarify that the 3" range of the AOE doesn't go to 9" with the tsons chapter tactic.

I dont see how this works at all, the effect and range of a spell are two different things. The range is only used on the initial cast. I don't see how you get a 9" treason.

Yup, what he said. The range of the spell is a very clear term. Now if the spell is a nova, then it will get extended by 6". But this is not the case for treason.

Interestingly, you're thinking in 7th. In 8th the "range" of a spell isn't defined except by common sense, nor is "effect" or "Nova".

Common sense tells us we won’t get a 9 inch aoe on infernal gateway. If you choose to see it that way then you’re putting on massive blinders

I don't. See my comment RE 2 weeks and FAQ.

I was more pointed towards guyver.

Anyway new idea. Are spawn worth it now with the stratagem? I’ve got about 100 points and can either put in some spawn which when buffer appropriately can dish out a lot of pain OR switch a cultist unit for a 16 man unit of tzaangors.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You cant use boon of mutation on ahriman if you got him the disk though.

So, if anything, the arguement for foot exalted/ahriman is that they can get boons. and some boons are just disgustingly powerful.
The movement boon, being a "lame" one is basically half a disk for free.
the +1 casting (and the "choose any" who is basically the same) is freakishly good. and its 11/36 of the possibilities without taking rerolls into account.
The FnP and -1 to hit are both nifty defensive layers, that stack.
+1T, +1W are not bad at keeping yourself alive either.

Naturally turning into a prince aint half bad if you are an exalted. a bit more questionable if you are ahriman, and maybe not as great for well equipped terminators, and naturally you have to have a reroll at hand to avoid spawning
But overall, casting this on your termi/foothriman/footxlated is rather powerful
And you can't do it if you don't have one.

+1 to all saves, which would give Ahriman a 2+ invul

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
You cant use boon of mutation on ahriman if you got him the disk though.

So, if anything, the arguement for foot exalted/ahriman is that they can get boons. and some boons are just disgustingly powerful.
The movement boon, being a "lame" one is basically half a disk for free.
the +1 casting (and the "choose any" who is basically the same) is freakishly good. and its 11/36 of the possibilities without taking rerolls into account.
The FnP and -1 to hit are both nifty defensive layers, that stack.
+1T, +1W are not bad at keeping yourself alive either.

Naturally turning into a prince aint half bad if you are an exalted. a bit more questionable if you are ahriman, and maybe not as great for well equipped terminators, and naturally you have to have a reroll at hand to avoid spawning
But overall, casting this on your termi/foothriman/footxlated is rather powerful
And you can't do it if you don't have one.

+1 to all saves, which would give Ahriman a 2+ invul

Almost positive it caps at 3++

Also, we don't have +1 saves on our list. its not the same as CSM list.

 MinscS2 wrote:
You can spam Boon of Mutation on a Exalted on Foot as well, so there's another (slight) edge.

IDK how slight the edge is, but having a 2+/3++ save is pretty good on anything.