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Yeah, I would defiantly not be willing to lose the psychic abilities of our Tson Princes for a generic one with a 'warp bolter'.

Just another fun iteration of GW's "Maybe model, maybe rules??" policy.

Warp bolters that are sculpted on all our daemon prince models? nope!

Plasma pistols for models that have never in their history ever been sculpted as having them, which don't even come in any Thousand Sons kit? Go nuts!

Force Swords that came on the old resin Aspiring Sorceror sculpt? Go F yourself!

I need a little help for building my army.

This will be my 2018 40k tournament army project, building/painting it up from scratch with stuff I already have.
The theme will be Brotherhood of Dust (as there was the hint in Ahriman: Exile that some escaped Ahriman's overtake of the Warband) and I can still use it as Mid-Heresy Legion.


My TS army dates back to 3rd, got a lot of love with 3.5 and I switched to a Tzeentch (ex TS) + Khorne (ex Fantasy) Demon army at the end of 5th. Unfortunate I did not finished painting it before 6th hit, made some Club games in 7th, skipped the whole Brimstone-Madness at the end of 7th, beginning of 8th and now with the new books I am back.

Damon model wise, there are several Flamers, Exalted Flamers, Heralds, Furies and Horros (Pinks and Yellow, funny fact, I build my yellow ones back in 7th as count as Nurglings before Brimstones were added to the game)
The TS consists of enough parts for 30 Rubics, 9 Scarabs (old metal GK-Termis, but I plan to get new ones), several Sorcerer on Foot (would not be a problem to get some discs), several Dreadnoughts, Spire Guard (Cultists), 30k Ahriman, 3 Princes, 4 Rhino chassis and 1 Khemri Sphinx

So everything is there except Tzaangors (and Magnus, but this is not a model I want to carry around), but it should be possible to convert some Enlightened or Shaman if needed.


the main point at the moment is, if I should go for a TS army with daemonic support or with a Demon army with TS support.
(Standard tournaments use 2k points with 3 detachments, Psychic Powers have to be noted on the army list and can not be changed throughout the tournament)

I don't have the possibility to really test different setups at the moment and while I want to take same Rubics, I am not sure if they are worth it.
And going heavy into Tzaangors is not an option as therefore I can just use a full demon army.

For now I have something like this in my mind but I am not really happy with it:
3*TS Prince with Wings
2*5 Rubics
1*10 Cultits
Changeling
2* Fluxmaster
1*6 Flamers
4*1 Exalted Flamer
2*5 Furies (fast screening unit)
2*10 Brimstone
1*10 Pinks

Force Swords that came on the old resin Aspiring Sorceror sculpt? Go F yourself!

Resin?
I remember a time were we all replaced the sword or bolt pistol with a power fist on the metal troop sorcerer
So I have 3 of them with sowerd+power fist

I am in almost the same boat as you are Kodos, I am working on a Tson list to be my tourney list with Deamon Support.

Thousand Sons -
HQ-
Ahriman
Sorcerer
Exalted Sorcerer

Troops -
1X Cultists (20 men)
1X Rubric Marine Squad (10 men, 1 w/ soul reaper)
1X Rubric Marine Squad (5 men)

Heavy Support-
Defiler w/ Double Laz Cannons & Scourge
Forgefiend w/ 2X Hades Autocannons & Jaws

Deamons -
HQ -
Changecaster

Elites-
3X Flamer Squad (2 Flamers, 1 Pyrocaster)


Total : 1491 pts

Our next tourney is 1500 pts so thats what I am looking at. I was thinking of dropping the flamers, summoning the changecaster in, and putting a Pred with laz cannons in as a different option. This would also allow me to add some Chaos Spawn in for additional 'anti-alpha-strike' coverage. Or I could just drop a lot of Chaos Spawn and some pink horrors. So many options.

I like the Deamon Princes that we have access to, they are extra awsome, but I don't know if I would run 3 of them. Its an interesting idea.

Furies from my personal experience work best as Mark of Nurgle. 5++/5+++ do wonders as an annoyance / stuck in squad. Whenever I run mine as Tzeentch for 4++ I end up rolling 3's lol. :p

I'm thinking DP vs Exalted Sorcerer. Pros / cons.

Spells: 2 both
Damage avg: DP 14dmg, ES 8dmg
etc etc

Pts difference - ~40.

So i think if i need to buff & cast than ES is great, if i need to fly kill charge than DP is better.

BUT for my games i very rarely fly forward with my DP - it works like buff / reroller. So maybe 40pts here is a good save

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I'm thinking DP vs Exalted Sorcerer. Pros / cons.

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc pro's:
- 39 pts cheaper
- Can carry the Seer's Bane.
- Has a minor shooting attack with his Inferno bolt pistol. (yay?)
(- If on foot, can be affected by Boon of Mutation.)
(- can buy plasma/warpflame pistol)

Daemon Prince (with 2x Talons) pro's:
- +1 Strength.
- +2 Toughness.
- +3 Wounds.
- +3 Attacks.
- +1 Ld.
- 1 better AP.
- 1 better invuln.
- Aura affects friendly Tzeentch Daemons as well.
- Access to the Discipline of Tzeentch.

Exalted Sorcerers are really in a strange position in this codex, they're not the best at anything:
They're not the best at fighting: Daemon Prince's and even Ahriman is better.
They're not the best at manifesting powers: Terminator Sorcerers and Ahriman is better.
They're not the cheapest: Sorcerers are cheaper if you're looking strictly for a cheap psyker, and Sorcerers are identical as Exalted Sorcerers when it comes to the psychic phase.
They're don't have anything unique: Daemon Prince's and Ahriman also have the aura and access to Fly.

In 7th they'd have the massive advantage of being able to hide in/behind units, but now in 8th so can our Daemon Prince's.
The only worthwhile thing about them is that they can carry Seer's Bane and be affecterd by Boons (if on foot).
The benefits you get from a Daemon Prince over an Exalted Sorcerer is so worth the 39 pts!

Ironically, once you compare the Exalted Sorcerer to the regular Sorcerer, the Exalted looks great (gains a bunch of stats and abilities for a relatively minor cost increase), and that says all about the regular sorcerer.

I'd rate our HQ's as such:

1) Ahriman.
2) Daemon Princes.
3) Terminator Sorcerers.
----
4) Exalted Sorcerers.
----
5) Sorcerers.

I can only ever see myself fielding an Exalted (on Disc) when I want to play with Seer's Bane.
Not sure if being able to cast Boon of Mutation on him is worth the drawback of being on foot. I'd rather have the Terminator Sorcerer for that, especially since he can easily reach +3 to cast (familiar, warlord trait, boon.)

That's all true, but sometimes you need to save those points. The 40 pts you pay for the deamon prince is a squad of cultists for covering from alpha strike. It's all about what you can afford vs what you have.

A better observation would also be why take an exalted over Ahriman? Normally I don't take names charecters but Ahriman is just too good, 10 pts for +1 to casts and an extra spell? He'll yes. At least the sorcerer in terminator armor offers something with the familiar.

Yeah Ahriman is such a no-brainer it's not even funny.

+1 manifest.
+2 denies.
+1 power.
+1 to cast and deny.
A better force staff.
A better invuln.

For how much? +10 pts on foot and +25 pts on a Disc?
What does the Exalted have? Nothing? Sold!

Granted, he is unique and unlike a Exalted he can't take a relic (and we have some goooood relics. )
He's also forced to take specific Warlord Trait, one which you don't really want on him. One can circumvent this by making someone else the Warlord however.

Exalteds have their place, an exalted with seers bane vs a GK army for instance is nasty

I could see an exalted on foot babysitting a gunline. Predators maybe? Really really sad we can't get havocs or obliterators any more.

Also, one daemon question. I see many people going after the exalted flamers for anti tank. Since I suppose this happens for the d3 lascannon shots, why not pay a little extra and get the burning chariots? For 20ish points more we get 4 extra wounds, toughness and more movement. Is there any hidden benefit the exalted flamer has over the burning chariot that I cannot see?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I could see an exalted on foot babysitting a gunline. Predators maybe? Really really sad we can't get havocs or obliterators any more.

Also, one daemon question. I see many people going after the exalted flamers for anti tank. Since I suppose this happens for the d3 lascannon shots, why not pay a little extra and get the burning chariots? For 20ish points more we get 4 extra wounds, toughness and more movement. Is there any hidden benefit the exalted flamer has over the burning chariot that I cannot see?

Exalted Flamers are characters and thus can be hidden behind other units.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I could see an exalted on foot babysitting a gunline. Predators maybe? Really really sad we can't get havocs or obliterators any more.

Also, one daemon question. I see many people going after the exalted flamers for anti tank. Since I suppose this happens for the d3 lascannon shots, why not pay a little extra and get the burning chariots? For 20ish points more we get 4 extra wounds, toughness and more movement. Is there any hidden benefit the exalted flamer has over the burning chariot that I cannot see?

Exalted Flamers are characters and thus can be hidden behind other units.

Yup, simple as that. I would like to see how well a massed burning chariot army would do (10+), but outside of that they stick out as a soft target while exalted flamer can just hide behind some horror. It means that the extra defence is redundant so you're paying the extra points to make it easier to take out and better in combat, usually not worth it.

I would probably put the Terminator sorcerer as the top HQ choice, simply because he is so crucial. If you were limited to, say, two HQs, I would alway take the termie-sorcerer over a DP, simply because you _NEED_ him to teleport in and cast warptime.

I am a little disappointed in Exalted sorcerers. It is not that they are bad as such, the other options just mostly do what exalteds do a little better. And the Exalted box is such a great kit, unlike the demon prince and terminator sorceror models, both of which are kind of meh.

Seers bane would be fun against Necrons, though.

If you want chariots you take the Herald as their they larger base just gives you an advantage
Flamers want to be as small as possible, also for easier placement after deep strike

Azuza001 wrote:.....

Like your list
I would just take Exalted Flames instead

And Furies are tricky, with all the flying characters a mobile/fast screening unit to keep them save while playing aggressive is a must
but they need to be more and the most reliable version does not benefit from our buffs and are too expensive for just a screening unit

Screamers would be another option

MinscS2 wrote:Yeah Ahriman is such a no-brainer it's not even funny.

Main problem with him is, expect a nerf coming if the right people feel upset with him
The other problem is, it makes list building boring and limits your options (why spend more points for a Prince if you have Ahriman)

Main problem with him is, expect a nerf coming if the right people feel upset with him
The other problem is, it makes list building boring and limits your options (why spend more points for a Prince if you have Ahriman)

No problem whatsoever as long as they fix the rest of the TS units (ie 2-3 pts less for rubrics, 3 pts less for the warpflamer, change All is dust rule for Scarabs and factor in the -1 movement penalty for all sons in their points cost, exclude the aspiring smites from the beta ruling).

topaxygouroun i wrote:

No problem whatsoever as long as they fix the rest of the TS units (ie 2-3 pts less for rubrics, 3 pts less for the warpflamer, change All is dust rule for Scarabs and factor in the -1 movement penalty for all sons in their points cost, exclude the aspiring smites from the beta ruling).

Both Rubrics and warpflamers will get a point reduction, if we judge from how they handled intercessors and plague marines. I don't see GW making changes to scarabs or or aspiring sorcerers though. It is not like they have gone out of their way to fix GK, even though GK's terminators and mini-psykers are struggling a LOT more than their thousand sons counterparts. Ultimately, to fix terminators they need to nerf overcharged plasma, and I don't think GW is ready for that.

I highly doubt the faq lowers points but I would love it if it happened

Why would they change point costs really ? We've had Chapter Approved, then our very own Codex and they didn't change anything.

Current point costs are here to stay, and Rubrics / Scarabs will be bad for (at least) another 10 months.

GW is bad at game design and will always be. We need to accept it and move on.

I thought that only imperium players were complaining all day long lol. What is wrong about rubric marines? They have amazing weapons and an amazing rules and a 5+ invulnerable save. Moreover they are such beautiful models, it s a shame not playing them. How much do you want to pay for these? 10 points?

Spado wrote:
I thought that only imperium players were complaining all day long lol. What is wrong about rubric marines? They have amazing weapons and an amazing rules and a 5+ invulnerable save. How much do you want to pay for these? 10 points? Geez guys you are never happy...

Everyone pretty much agrees at this point that Space Marine tacticals are overcosted at 13 points.

For 7 points on top of that, Rubrics get

+all is dust
+-2AP on their bolters
+5++
+Warpflamers (extremely expensive), Soulreaper (good but only on ten man squads)
+Sorceror sarge

-No standard special weapon
-No standard heavy weapon
-Perils of the Warp causes an immediate 2d3 damage to squad because lol one wound psyker
-1 movement

They're overcosted by a couple points. I'd pay 18ppm for them happily, especially with a price-corrected warpflamer (over double the cost of a regular flamer for -2ap? That seems steep...)

I have a 2000 game tomorrow against Mortarion and his DG. I will not be bringing Magnus on account of him being unpainted.

Since Mortarion looks like a bundle of trouble, I figure that going pure TS will probably not cut it. So I will ally. Either Daemons or CSM.

The main TS force will probably be a battalion with Ahriman/DP/termi sorc, 3 units of MSU rubrics in troop for objective holding and a 10x Scarab to deepstrike and get the buff treatment. Maybe a Defiler centerpiece.

The rest of the models I have for TS (Predators/Vindi/LR/rhinos) are not very appealing to me. Hence the support:

I do have a solid heavy support array of models from CSM (6 obliterators, autocannon havocs, 5-6 plasma gun chosen/havocs) that I could use. In such a case, how would you field them? Iron Warriors for ignore cover and Alpha legion for extra survivability strike me as the best bets. But then what would the accompanying HQ look like?

Other option is Tzeentch daemons. I have 15-20 pinks, 20 brimstones, 20ish blues, 2 burning chariots with detachable exalted flamers, foot herald, disc herald, blue scribes, DP.

Which option would you go for?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I have a 2000 game tomorrow against Mortarion and his DG. I will not be bringing Magnus on account of him being unpainted.

Since Mortarion looks like a bundle of trouble, I figure that going pure TS will probably not cut it. So I will ally. Either Daemons or CSM.

The main TS force will probably be a battalion with Ahriman/DP/termi sorc, 3 units of MSU rubrics in troop for objective holding and a 10x Scarab to deepstrike and get the buff treatment. Maybe a Defiler centerpiece.

The rest of the models I have for TS (Predators/Vindi/LR/rhinos) are not very appealing to me. Hence the support:

I do have a solid heavy support array of models from CSM (6 obliterators, autocannon havocs, 5-6 plasma gun chosen/havocs) that I could use. In such a case, how would you field them? Iron Warriors for ignore cover and Alpha legion for extra survivability strike me as the best bets. But then what would the accompanying HQ look like?

Other option is Tzeentch daemons. I have 15-20 pinks, 20 brimstones, 20ish blues, 2 burning chariots with detachable exalted flamers, foot herald, disc herald, blue scribes, DP.

Which option would you go for?

Pure TS would probably do great against mortarion. Bring a souped-up termie sorc with the +1 cast WL trait and have him cast your Death Hex the turn you want to take morty out. Then just have something VOTLW at him (Oblits would be best, but I would probably use 10 man SOT squad since I generally run pure Tsons), follow up with a few lascannons and he should be toast.

Just wait for a turn where he doesn't have the -1 to hit buff on him (with how universal our denies are and him having no psychic bonus that should not be hard) and drop the hammer on him.

Spado wrote:
I thought that only imperium players were complaining all day long lol. What is wrong about rubric marines? They have amazing weapons and an amazing rules and a 5+ invulnerable save. Moreover they are such beautiful models, it s a shame not playing them. How much do you want to pay for these? 10 points?

Rubics have been to expensive for what they do since 3rd edition
This is a game were movement is King and strength in numbers is the best defense

Therefore a slow, expensive unit with short range will always be bad
making them cheaper is not a solution, adding 30" Bolter or options for fast movement (like portals, but as a unit ability)

I've gotten into the habit of including a cadre tzeentch into my army -- vanguard unit of usually a changeling or herald on disc with three exalted flamers. They are just such useful models, able to really adapt to different situations. I have them follow the demon prince, that way people find it tough to want to deal with them necessarily. They don't hold up well or long to attention from your opponent, and their range can be a bit of an issue, but when they aren't the main source of attention they can sneak some big damage in.

It's an effort to shore up some decent anti-infantry. The idea for me is to pack some real answers like a predator, maybe some hellbrutes with lascannons, forgefiend etc. Then have these guys finishing the job.

So I am trying for hours now to find a good HQ choice for a spearhead detachment of CSM to ally to my TS. Spearhead will be 2 units of oblits + 1 unit of havocs. Here is the problem: Either we must go chaos lord in terminator armor in order to give the Oblits re-roll 1's, or we need to pick a psyker. Sorcerer/DP would do (also DP would give reroll 1's to the obliterators).

However, I just cannot justify how much worse the CSM psykers are against the TS. A TS DP has everything that a CSM DP has, plus 1 power known, 1 power cast, +1 to invul save and access to two more disciplines of spells. For free.

A sorcerer for TS has everything that a normal sorcerer in CSM has, plus 5+ invul and +1 discipline to choose from. For free as well.

I am really battling with sub-optimal choices. How would you complete the list below?

TS battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Termi Sorc, familiar, helm
TS DP, wings, talons, orb

5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc

10 x Scarabs, 2 x hellyfire, 2 x soulcannon

CSM Spearhead:

[INSERT HQ CHOICE]

3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
5 x havocs, 4 x autocannons

How would you fill in the last HQ slot?

I'd probably just toss in a Chaos Lord w/Jump Pack and call it even. Lets you get re-roll 1s on your Oblits, naturally deepstrikes and isn't a costly choice.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
I'd probably just toss in a Chaos Lord w/Jump Pack and call it even. Lets you get re-roll 1s on your Oblits, naturally deepstrikes and isn't a costly choice.

I was going to suggest this too. It's the cheapest option that does what you want it to and you can give it some cheap weapons to help defend in melee.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So I am trying for hours now to find a good HQ choice for a spearhead detachment of CSM to ally to my TS. Spearhead will be 2 units of oblits + 1 unit of havocs. Here is the problem: Either we must go chaos lord in terminator armor in order to give the Oblits re-roll 1's, or we need to pick a psyker. Sorcerer/DP would do (also DP would give reroll 1's to the obliterators).

However, I just cannot justify how much worse the CSM psykers are against the TS. A TS DP has everything that a CSM DP has, plus 1 power known, 1 power cast, +1 to invul save and access to two more disciplines of spells. For free.

A sorcerer for TS has everything that a normal sorcerer in CSM has, plus 5+ invul and +1 discipline to choose from. For free as well.

I am really battling with sub-optimal choices. How would you complete the list below?

TS battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Termi Sorc, familiar, helm
TS DP, wings, talons, orb

5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc

10 x Scarabs, 2 x hellyfire, 2 x soulcannon

CSM Spearhead:

[INSERT HQ CHOICE]

3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
5 x havocs, 4 x autocannons

How would you fill in the last HQ slot?

Chaos Lord in terminator armor. You need something that can deepstrike, and the vanilla sorcerers are not worth it, the vanilla DP even less so. If you just need the slot filled, take a warpsmith and save some points.

But think about this: You will have 2 characters and 20 T4 models on the table turn 1. You will be extremely vulnerable to plasmascions, alpha legion beserkers, jormungandr genestealers, CSM plasma terminators, inceptors, and ten different other kinds of alpha strike. You ought to get some chaff, or you should include a couple of rhinos for your deployed infantry. Regards

But think about this: You will have 2 characters and 20 T4 models on the table turn 1. You will be extremely vulnerable to plasmascions, alpha legion beserkers, jormungandr genestealers, CSM plasma terminators, inceptors, and ten different other kinds of alpha strike. You ought to get some chaff, or you should include a couple of rhinos for your deployed infantry. Regards

It's a targeted list. I will be facing DG + Mortarion. I do not foresee an alpha strike coming.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I'm thinking DP vs Exalted Sorcerer. Pros / cons.

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc pro's:
- 39 pts cheaper
- Can carry the Seer's Bane.
- Has a minor shooting attack with his Inferno bolt pistol. (yay?)
(- If on foot, can be affected by Boon of Mutation.)
(- can buy plasma/warpflame pistol)

Daemon Prince (with 2x Talons) pro's:
- +1 Strength.
- +2 Toughness.
- +3 Wounds.
- +3 Attacks.
- +1 Ld.
- 1 better AP.
- 1 better invuln.
- Aura affects friendly Tzeentch Daemons as well.
- Access to the Discipline of Tzeentch.

Exalted Sorcerers are really in a strange position in this codex, they're not the best at anything:
They're not the best at fighting: Daemon Prince's and even Ahriman is better.
They're not the best at manifesting powers: Terminator Sorcerers and Ahriman is better.
They're not the cheapest: Sorcerers are cheaper if you're looking strictly for a cheap psyker, and Sorcerers are identical as Exalted Sorcerers when it comes to the psychic phase.
They're don't have anything unique: Daemon Prince's and Ahriman also have the aura and access to Fly.

In 7th they'd have the massive advantage of being able to hide in/behind units, but now in 8th so can our Daemon Prince's.
The only worthwhile thing about them is that they can carry Seer's Bane and be affecterd by Boons (if on foot).
The benefits you get from a Daemon Prince over an Exalted Sorcerer is so worth the 39 pts!

Ironically, once you compare the Exalted Sorcerer to the regular Sorcerer, the Exalted looks great (gains a bunch of stats and abilities for a relatively minor cost increase), and that says all about the regular sorcerer.

I'd rate our HQ's as such:

1) Ahriman.
2) Daemon Princes.
3) Terminator Sorcerers.
----
4) Exalted Sorcerers.
----
5) Sorcerers.

I can only ever see myself fielding an Exalted (on Disc) when I want to play with Seer's Bane.
Not sure if being able to cast Boon of Mutation on him is worth the drawback of being on foot. I'd rather have the Terminator Sorcerer for that, especially since he can easily reach +3 to cast (familiar, warlord trait, boon.)

Do Thousand Sons Daemon Princes have the Psyker trait? I don't think it's listed, but other Daemon Princes gain it when they take a Nurgle, Slaneesh, or Tzeentch mark? They can clearly manifest and deny spells, but do they have the Psyker trait? I think it says it to the side of their casts and denies, but it isn't listed at the bottom with keywords. I'm assuming they do, but just wanted to double check.