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 Luciferian wrote:
And the answer to that is painfully obvious: it's for gameplay and balance purposes. Because it would be too strong if vehicles could spill their units directly on top of the enemy with guaranteed charges. Same reason you can't deep strike any closer than over 9" away. Now, you can either accept that this is a game, and that as such, certain concessions must be made for the sake of gameplay, or you can argue from absurdity by selectively interpreting gameplay mechanics as what is literally happening in the battle they represent.

It's less the argument of a Game vs Not a Game, vs the argument that the Game CURRENTLY has better rules for this aspect of it.

Now don't get me wrong, 8e was needed. However certain aspects of 7e function better than certain aspects of 8e.

Finally, There are always different ways to achieve balance. So the 'gameplay and balance' reason isn't one with significant weight.

Really? I am not really seeing any rhinos on the table, because anything that isn't an assault vehicle is either a death trap or used only to shoot out of. These better rules currently that you speak of are the rules that people have been tired of for a long time.

 Talamare wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Not really. Picture showed them disembarking, and then the tank charging, no movement, also disembarking from the rear is useless for units at want to charge. Disembark from the front, move forward (turning a 6" move effectively into a 9" one), then move the tank forward at a diagonal to charge the target's flank.

But sure, I "failed" because I picture actual tactics for doing a supported charge instead of making memes about how I don't understand concepts and instead assume that any good idea is always going to fail.

Then you double down on it. I'm honestly impressed.

Picture showed a concept, that you failed to understand. As well as a basic understanding relations that you failed to realize.

It showed a simplified meme in 2d space that you're trying to treat like it was a treaty on the Art of War. It skipped a bunch of stuff simply for the sake of a laugh.

 Talamare wrote:
[Basic Relation - If they both moved, then they would still relatively be the same distance from the enemy. This is completely ignoring the fact that Rhinos are faster than the majority of infantry.
Concept - Finally, it doesn't matter the actual distance between the 2 because it's getting an idea across. The core of the idea the image displayed is that Transport might succeed the charge and the actual melee infantry would fail it.

So that creates a discussion of, WHY are they leaving the vehicle before arriving at the enemy.

Because with an effective 9" move out of a transport I apparently can decided to push towards an enemy unit well enough to properly engage, nor set up the transport towards the side so that it's not in the way of the charging unit. Or you know, increase my odds by using a command reroll.

A 8" charge is the average in this game and we now suceed a 3" charge automatically unless we charge into certain kinds of terrain (-2" for charging through woods for example). Yes the proposed scenario CAN happen, just like you could fail a charge after screening with a unit in 7th. The point remains that the tactic is a valid alternative to needing to screen as the transport is generally tough enough to take Overwatch and make the charge in one piece.

So basically the meme ignores solid tactics to propose a worse case scenario for gaks and giggles. Just like they usually do.

 Talamare wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
And the answer to that is painfully obvious: it's for gameplay and balance purposes. Because it would be too strong if vehicles could spill their units directly on top of the enemy with guaranteed charges. Same reason you can't deep strike any closer than over 9" away. Now, you can either accept that this is a game, and that as such, certain concessions must be made for the sake of gameplay, or you can argue from absurdity by selectively interpreting gameplay mechanics as what is literally happening in the battle they represent.

It's less the argument of a Game vs Not a Game, vs the argument that the Game CURRENTLY has better rules for this aspect of it.

Now don't get me wrong, 8e was needed. However certain aspects of 7e function better than certain aspects of 8e.

Finally, There are always different ways to achieve balance. So the 'gameplay and balance' reason isn't one with significant weight.

It does? It has better rules for units being able to assault from transports?

7e = Move up and disembark, stand around to be shot for a full turn then charge.
8e = Move up, wait for a turn, disembark, move then charge.

8e is objectively better for most transports, the only transports that are better in 7e are those that already allow assaulting.

As for tankshock/ram - it is no better there are a lot of broken mechanics that make no sense and have needed FAQ interactions. Ramming has long been nearly useless. These rules aren't the best but they are better than what we had.

Let's not forget that in all these scenarios, in 7th, because Rhinos are paper thin, you could charge them, surround them, destroy the rhino with ease, and then the entire unit inside would be lost as they couldn't legally disembark.

Breng77 wrote:
...8e is objectively better for most transports, the only transports that are better in 7e are those that already allow assaulting...

Mild quibble: cost and fire points. Rhinos aren't really better in 8th, they may be tougher but they're twice the price and can't serve as a firing bunker for units with guns. Similar problem with Chimeras (especially the 6e/Inquisition ones that retained five fire points in place of two and the lasgun array).

I may have missed it, but has anyone considered making a house rule that changes disembarking to work exactly like deepstrike?

"Disembarking: A unit may disembark from a transport at the end of the movement phase. The disembarking unit must be placed in unit cohesion and must be within 3 inches of the transport vehicle. Additionally the unit must be placed more than 9" away from an enemy model. "

No you can drive up to the enemy and deploy instead of waiting for them to come to you, but you still have that risking 9" charge.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
...8e is objectively better for most transports, the only transports that are better in 7e are those that already allow assaulting...

Mild quibble: cost and fire points. Rhinos aren't really better in 8th, they may be tougher but they're twice the price and can't serve as a firing bunker for units with guns. Similar problem with Chimeras (especially the 6e/Inquisition ones that retained five fire points in place of two and the lasgun array).

True for use for shooting most transports (non-opentopped) got significantly worse. I was talking more about for assault purposes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
I may have missed it, but has anyone considered making a house rule that changes disembarking to work exactly like deepstrike?

"Disembarking: A unit may disembark from a transport at the end of the movement phase. The disembarking unit must be placed in unit cohesion and must be within 3 inches of the transport vehicle. Additionally the unit must be placed more than 9" away from an enemy model. "

No you can drive up to the enemy and deploy instead of waiting for them to come to you, but you still have that risking 9" charge.

This would be a buff to shooting units relative to assault units over the current situations. A 9" charge is still difficult, but plenty of units could jump out and light up their target with shooting. Right now most units in transports need to forgo a round of shooting to use the increased transport movement.

Breng77 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
I may have missed it, but has anyone considered making a house rule that changes disembarking to work exactly like deepstrike?

"Disembarking: A unit may disembark from a transport at the end of the movement phase. The disembarking unit must be placed in unit cohesion and must be within 3 inches of the transport vehicle. Additionally the unit must be placed more than 9" away from an enemy model."



No you can drive up to the enemy and deploy instead of waiting for them to come to you, but you still have that risking 9" charge.

This would be a buff to shooting units relative to assault units over the current situations. A 9" charge is still difficult, but plenty of units could jump out and light up their target with shooting. Right now most units in transports need to forgo a round of shooting to use the increased transport movement.

What? Nothing about disembarking prevents you from shooting. However the assault rules create situations that allow a unit to be stuck in their transport or for the transport to be effectively tarpitted. when it gets surrounded. With the current disembark rules a transport need to move closer, but far enough away that the enemy will not reliably move forward on their turn and charge the vehicle, but also hope that the enemy doesn't decide to just back up. Then on your next turn, if the enemy has used their turn to keep your vehicle in a favorable position, you can get out, move, shoot, and charge.

Is that really better than 1) Disembarking at the end of movement (so the disembarking unit cannot move or advance), allowing them to shoot (but counting as having moved just like now) and then charging, now with the same 9" distance deep strike allows, a significantly more controllable and favorable situation for melee units in transports than the crap shoot that is moving up but also keeping your distance and then waiting and hoping the enemy doesn't throw it all away.

 Lance845 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
I may have missed it, but has anyone considered making a house rule that changes disembarking to work exactly like deepstrike?

"Disembarking: A unit may disembark from a transport at the end of the movement phase. The disembarking unit must be placed in unit cohesion and must be within 3 inches of the transport vehicle. Additionally the unit must be placed more than 9" away from an enemy model."



No you can drive up to the enemy and deploy instead of waiting for them to come to you, but you still have that risking 9" charge.

This would be a buff to shooting units relative to assault units over the current situations. A 9" charge is still difficult, but plenty of units could jump out and light up their target with shooting. Right now most units in transports need to forgo a round of shooting to use the increased transport movement.

What? Nothing about disembarking prevents you from shooting. However the assault rules create situations that allow a unit to be stuck in their transport or for the transport to be effectively tarpitted. when it gets surrounded. With the current disembark rules a transport need to move closer, but far enough away that the enemy will not reliably move forward on their turn and charge the vehicle, but also hope that the enemy doesn't decide to just back up. Then on your next turn, if the enemy has used their turn to keep your vehicle in a favorable position, you can get out, move, shoot, and charge.

Is that really better than 1) Disembarking at the end of movement (so the disembarking unit cannot move or advance), allowing them to shoot (but counting as having moved just like now) and then charging, now with the same 9" distance deep strike allows, a significantly more controllable and favorable situation for melee units in transports than the crap shoot that is moving up but also keeping your distance and then waiting and hoping the enemy doesn't throw it all away.

Unless your vehicle is opentopped you cannot shoot while embarked and cannot disembark after a vehicle has moved, so if you move up in your transport you cannot currently shoot that turn, unlike 7e where you could move up with a rhino and either use the fire point, or jump out and shoot, now you forgo a turn of shooting to use that movement (unless you are opentopped). SO if the rules changed to disembark after move, but 9" away, most shooting units can fire to full effect, whereas assault units for the most part have a very risky charge (27% chance of success to roll a 9 or more without a command point) so that would be a buff to shooting over the current rules. Where everyone shooting or assaulting cannot attack the turn they moved, unless they are in an open topped vehicle. Essentially your change creates a situation where shooting units have no risk of moving into range, to shoot (at least until after shooting to full effect) but assault units for the most part don't make the assault, suffer overwatch, then get shot again, on the opponents turn and potentially charged.

I look at it this way.

If an enemy unit is not an assault unit, not a horde, and not super fast I am better off now than trying to make a bunch of 9" charges. I can create situations where the opponent has no good retreat option.

Also if the opponent is an assault unit (what I would be afraid of charging my transport, I can expect them to move toward me, if they run away that is a win. I'm not super worried if my opponent wants his good shooting units locked in combat with my rhino.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
IN the end I don't think transport rush assault will on its own be an effective tactic. It would not be with either rule set, but with your change, transport rush shooting would be.

Also if transports can assault in your system, I can drop shooting units out the back, shoot, then assault you with the transport to deny you shooting, which I can do now, but not as quickly, and not before you can respond.

Fair. Gotcha. Thanks for spelling it out.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ok got a scenario for you... SM/BA/DA/CSM (whatever you want) assault force in a half dozen rhinos.

Charges across the field towards the opponents Gurad/Eldar/Tau positions (they aren't going to win the shooting war), ready to disembark and charge next turn.

Opponent uses 6 cheap units to surround the Rhino's and end the game as there is nothing the first player can do.

If you see nothing wrong with this you are literally trying your best to not see it.

If you can't get your transport too close to within their charge range (in most cases 12-13" but many armies much further), so therefore have to stop 14-15" away from your opponent... it leaves open the question - what's the point in (grounded) transports?

I need a drink. I don't see how you can legitimize this as a serious argument when clearly one of the players has had a lobotomy.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ok got a scenario for you... SM/BA/DA/CSM (whatever you want) assault force in a half dozen rhinos.

Charges across the field towards the opponents Gurad/Eldar/Tau positions (they aren't going to win the shooting war), ready to disembark and charge next turn.

Opponent uses 6 cheap units to surround the Rhino's and end the game as there is nothing the first player can do.

If you see nothing wrong with this you are literally trying your best to not see it.

If you can't get your transport too close to within their charge range (in most cases 12-13" but many armies much further), so therefore have to stop 14-15" away from your opponent... it leaves open the question - what's the point in (grounded) transports?

I need a drink. I don't see how you can legitimize this as a serious argument when clearly one of the players has had a lobotomy.

It's possible - I couldn't see someone doing six Rhinos outside of Apocalypse which no longer exists or a truly stupid opponent, thankfully rare, but most Marine armies can punk a vehicle with Jump Packs or Terminators, one Rhino is going to be at least a hundred points - which goes up depending on the unit inside. Drop a few units of Assault Marines around the vehicle and charge, embarked models have to disembark within 3' of the vehicle and can't be more than 1' from enemy models, meaning unless they want to be auto-slain they can't get out until the Rhino either fights its way free or dies and hopefully you can find room to keep a few models alive.
Mind you, it's an opportunist's tactic. I wouldn't bother unless the vehicle in question was carrying more than two hundred points.

A transport carrying assault troops needs to stop 3"+6"+2D6" from the enemy, which is, in fact, at a safe distance.

A rhino is 4.5" long. If I roll up with a rhino full of nasty, and park it 14" away from the enemy front line, the enemy has to make a 12.5" charge to cause my troops inside to die with their rhino. If the enemy stays in place, I have to roll a 4 on 2D6 to charge them. If the enemy comes to get me, they have to make a 7" charge to reach my tank, but they won't be able to get behind it, and my troops can get out the back of it and charge them right there. At 14", the enemy could withdraw out of range, so I could play with probability and roll up a little closer to see to it that they don't get away.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
A transport carrying assault troops needs to stop 3"+6"+2D6" from the enemy, which is, in fact, at a safe distance.

A rhino is 4.5" long. If I roll up with a rhino full of nasty, and park it 14" away from the enemy front line, the enemy has to make a 12.5" charge to cause my troops inside to die with their rhino. If the enemy stays in place, I have to roll a 4 on 2D6 to charge them. If the enemy comes to get me, they have to make a 7" charge to reach my tank, but they won't be able to get behind it, and my troops can get out the back of it and charge them right there. At 14", the enemy could withdraw out of range, so I could play with probability and roll up a little closer to see to it that they don't get away.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
A transport carrying assault troops needs to stop 3"+6"+2D6" from the enemy, which is, in fact, at a safe distance.

A rhino is 4.5" long. If I roll up with a rhino full of nasty, and park it 14" away from the enemy front line, the enemy has to make a 12.5" charge to cause my troops inside to die with their rhino. If the enemy stays in place, I have to roll a 4 on 2D6 to charge them. If the enemy comes to get me, they have to make a 7" charge to reach my tank, but they won't be able to get behind it, and my troops can get out the back of it and charge them right there. At 14", the enemy could withdraw out of range, so I could play with probability and roll up a little closer to see to it that they don't get away.

Marines can buy Jump Packs and Terminator Armour which enable them to sit in reserves and at the end of their movement phase on any of their turns choose to enter from reserves and put those models down just over nine inches away from an enemy unit meaning they can surround the model in question before they charge, no transport required.
It's easy enough to thwart by using an escort system, keep a few models within eighteen inches of your vehicles and they can't surround it, there's a reason I called it an opportunistic tactic, I wouldn't plan on it but I'll happily take advantage of it.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
A transport carrying assault troops needs to stop 3"+6"+2D6" from the enemy, which is, in fact, at a safe distance.

A rhino is 4.5" long. If I roll up with a rhino full of nasty, and park it 14" away from the enemy front line, the enemy has to make a 12.5" charge to cause my troops inside to die with their rhino. If the enemy stays in place, I have to roll a 4 on 2D6 to charge them. If the enemy comes to get me, they have to make a 7" charge to reach my tank, but they won't be able to get behind it, and my troops can get out the back of it and charge them right there. At 14", the enemy could withdraw out of range, so I could play with probability and roll up a little closer to see to it that they don't get away.

Marines can buy Jump Packs and Terminator Armour which enable them to sit in reserves and at the end of their movement phase on any of their turns choose to enter from reserves and put those models down just over nine inches away from an enemy unit meaning they can surround the model in question before they charge, no transport required.
It's easy enough to thwart by using an escort system, keep a few models within eighteen inches of your vehicles and they can't surround it, there's a reason I called it an opportunistic tactic, I wouldn't plan on it but I'll happily take advantage of it.

Of course, but consider the fact that they have to roll a 9 on 2d6 to actually make it to your tank.

In addition, each 3"x4.5" rhino projects a region approximately 390 square inches in area in which no deep strike can occur, a slightly more than 10% of the board. At it's widest, this region is 23.5" wide, and 22" at it's narrowest. If the tank has a partner, then both are essentially safe from deepstrikers surrounding them, since deestrikers would require a 11 on 2d6 dice to completely surround the transport

That's not to say there's nothing that can surround your transports. Hand of the Emperor, Onslaught, and hostiles with a faster movement speed than the troops inside the transport certainly have a chance to catch you. But I wouldn't be worried about them too much. Those are individual scenarios that may arise, and if they planned their list to use this as a tailored hard counter to rhino/razorback rushing, you still have the option to disembark early and use your empty transports to screen their contents as you walk.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ok got a scenario for you... SM/BA/DA/CSM (whatever you want) assault force in a half dozen rhinos.

Charges across the field towards the opponents Gurad/Eldar/Tau positions (they aren't going to win the shooting war), ready to disembark and charge next turn.

Opponent uses 6 cheap units to surround the Rhino's and end the game as there is nothing the first player can do.

If you see nothing wrong with this you are literally trying your best to not see it.

If you can't get your transport too close to within their charge range (in most cases 12-13" but many armies much further), so therefore have to stop 14-15" away from your opponent... it leaves open the question - what's the point in (grounded) transports?

I need a drink. I don't see how you can legitimize this as a serious argument when clearly one of the players has had a lobotomy.

That was just one scenario, no need to resort to insults.

What about a transport attempting to send a unit down the flank? it moves within 12" of a unit of Guardsmen/Grots/Cultists. Next turn the guard can charge and surround the unit. 50pt unit neutralises 300point unit by doing nothing but standing there.

You can't move transports near the opponents deployment zone if you have a small model count army without fast moving chaff units to block charges otherwise they just get locked in. So now you are paying not only the increased transport costs but also for a (fast moving) screening unit (or more) for each transport. Take BA for example, now every TAC squad in a rhino has to be escorted by an assault squad. Assault squads are not cheap compared to units which can just neutralise the transport and its occupants by just standing there, let alone the cost of the TAC squad and rhino as well.

Effectively every cheap unit has a 12"-13" bubble in which you can't move a transport into without a high risk of having it (and the unit its transporting) completely neutralised. Even larger threat bubble if the unit has a higher than 6" base move.

So no I'm not being dumb. I'm seeing the bigger picture.

ERJAK wrote:
In several hundred games of 40k played and several hundred more watched I have never, ever seen anyone bother to tank shock anything. Ever. And I've only seen 1 ramming. It just didn't happen and complaining about it is frankly ridiculous. Honestly the only embarrassing thing is just how desperate you are to get people to let you summon infinite daemons forever still.

Then you never saw a single 6th edition played with Orks' most gruesome lists... "The Battle Wagon Rush" with deff rollas d6 S10 Auto hits.

Poly Ranger wrote:
[
That was just one scenario, no need to resort to insults.

What about a transport attempting to send a unit down the flank? it moves within 12" of a unit of Guardsmen/Grots/Cultists. Next turn the guard can charge and surround the unit. 50pt unit neutralises 300point unit by doing nothing but standing there.

You can't move transports near the opponents deployment zone if you have a small model count army without fast moving chaff units to block charges otherwise they just get locked in. So now you are paying not only the increased transport costs but also for a (fast moving) screening unit (or more) for each transport. Take BA for example, now every TAC squad in a rhino has to be escorted by an assault squad. Assault squads are not cheap compared to units which can just neutralise the transport and its occupants by just standing there, let alone the cost of the TAC squad and rhino as well.

Effectively every cheap unit has a 12"-13" bubble in which you can't move a transport into without a high risk of having it (and the unit its transporting) completely neutralised. Even larger threat bubble if the unit has a higher than 6" base move.

So no I'm not being dumb. I'm seeing the bigger picture.

Okay, Rhino moves to within 12". Next turn, the troops inside will disembark 3", move 6", then make a 2" charge into melee with the enemy if the enemy doesn't move.

The Guardsmen seize the opportunity to try to counter-charge the Rhino.

They move forward 6". Then they charge. To make it into CQC with the Rhino they need a 5". A Rhino is 4.5" long; to get a model around the back of the Rhino they need a 11 on 2D6. If they roll more than a 4 but less than an 11, they make it to the Rhino, but on your turn the troops inside disembark out the back [which isn't blocked] then wipe out the Guardsmen in melee or in shooting. I think your Rhino is safe. I wouldn't call that a "high chance".

Fast moving units are a threat, but those units are also expensive.

If already in combat, a unit with the "Vehicle" or a "Mighty Force" type keyword should be able to move through "Infantry" a number of inches equal to or maybe half their Wounds (since Wounds sort of represent how big/tough/pushy a unit is), but not exceeding its M stat.

Infantry that end up underneath it after it's move could simply be moved to it's sides.

This would allow a big & healthy Baneblade/Land Raider/Tervigon to push through infantry undeterred as they should, but lighter or heavily damaged vehicles get bogged down more easily.

Just thinking out loud

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
[
That was just one scenario, no need to resort to insults.

What about a transport attempting to send a unit down the flank? it moves within 12" of a unit of Guardsmen/Grots/Cultists. Next turn the guard can charge and surround the unit. 50pt unit neutralises 300point unit by doing nothing but standing there.

You can't move transports near the opponents deployment zone if you have a small model count army without fast moving chaff units to block charges otherwise they just get locked in. So now you are paying not only the increased transport costs but also for a (fast moving) screening unit (or more) for each transport. Take BA for example, now every TAC squad in a rhino has to be escorted by an assault squad. Assault squads are not cheap compared to units which can just neutralise the transport and its occupants by just standing there, let alone the cost of the TAC squad and rhino as well.

Effectively every cheap unit has a 12"-13" bubble in which you can't move a transport into without a high risk of having it (and the unit its transporting) completely neutralised. Even larger threat bubble if the unit has a higher than 6" base move.

So no I'm not being dumb. I'm seeing the bigger picture.

Okay, Rhino moves to within 12". Next turn, the troops inside will disembark 3", move 6", then make a 2" charge into melee with the enemy if the enemy doesn't move.

The Guardsmen seize the opportunity to try to counter-charge the Rhino.

They move forward 6". Then they charge. To make it into CQC with the Rhino they need a 5". A Rhino is 4.5" long; to get a model around the back of the Rhino they need a 11 on 2D6. If they roll more than a 4 but less than an 11, they make it to the Rhino, but on your turn the troops inside disembark out the back [which isn't blocked] then wipe out the Guardsmen in melee or in shooting. I think your Rhino is safe. I wouldn't call that a "high chance".

Fast moving units are a threat, but those units are also expensive.

Don't you get both a 3" pile in before attacking and then a 3" consolidate move afterwards?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
A transport carrying assault troops needs to stop 3"+6"+2D6" from the enemy, which is, in fact, at a safe distance.

A rhino is 4.5" long. If I roll up with a rhino full of nasty, and park it 14" away from the enemy front line, the enemy has to make a 12.5" charge to cause my troops inside to die with their rhino. If the enemy stays in place, I have to roll a 4 on 2D6 to charge them. If the enemy comes to get me, they have to make a 7" charge to reach my tank, but they won't be able to get behind it, and my troops can get out the back of it and charge them right there. At 14", the enemy could withdraw out of range, so I could play with probability and roll up a little closer to see to it that they don't get away.

Marines can buy Jump Packs and Terminator Armour which enable them to sit in reserves and at the end of their movement phase on any of their turns choose to enter from reserves and put those models down just over nine inches away from an enemy unit meaning they can surround the model in question before they charge, no transport required.
It's easy enough to thwart by using an escort system, keep a few models within eighteen inches of your vehicles and they can't surround it, there's a reason I called it an opportunistic tactic, I wouldn't plan on it but I'll happily take advantage of it.

Of course, but consider the fact that they have to roll a 9 on 2d6 to actually make it to your tank.

In addition, each 3"x4.5" rhino projects a region approximately 390 square inches in area in which no deep strike can occur, a slightly more than 10% of the board. At it's widest, this region is 23.5" wide, and 22" at it's narrowest. If the tank has a partner, then both are essentially safe from deepstrikers surrounding them, since deestrikers would require a 11 on 2d6 dice to completely surround the transport

That's not to say there's nothing that can surround your transports. Hand of the Emperor, Onslaught, and hostiles with a faster movement speed than the troops inside the transport certainly have a chance to catch you. But I wouldn't be worried about them too much. Those are individual scenarios that may arise, and if they planned their list to use this as a tailored hard counter to rhino/razorback rushing, you still have the option to disembark early and use your empty transports to screen their contents as you walk.

The best plan is to aknowledge possibilities. If you outright dismiss any and never consider it again that's probably the one that'll get you - and taking a big risk to get a big reward is part of the game we play.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
[
That was just one scenario, no need to resort to insults.

What about a transport attempting to send a unit down the flank? it moves within 12" of a unit of Guardsmen/Grots/Cultists. Next turn the guard can charge and surround the unit. 50pt unit neutralises 300point unit by doing nothing but standing there.

You can't move transports near the opponents deployment zone if you have a small model count army without fast moving chaff units to block charges otherwise they just get locked in. So now you are paying not only the increased transport costs but also for a (fast moving) screening unit (or more) for each transport. Take BA for example, now every TAC squad in a rhino has to be escorted by an assault squad. Assault squads are not cheap compared to units which can just neutralise the transport and its occupants by just standing there, let alone the cost of the TAC squad and rhino as well.

Effectively every cheap unit has a 12"-13" bubble in which you can't move a transport into without a high risk of having it (and the unit its transporting) completely neutralised. Even larger threat bubble if the unit has a higher than 6" base move.

So no I'm not being dumb. I'm seeing the bigger picture.

Okay, Rhino moves to within 12". Next turn, the troops inside will disembark 3", move 6", then make a 2" charge into melee with the enemy if the enemy doesn't move.

The Guardsmen seize the opportunity to try to counter-charge the Rhino.

They move forward 6". Then they charge. To make it into CQC with the Rhino they need a 5". A Rhino is 4.5" long; to get a model around the back of the Rhino they need a 11 on 2D6. If they roll more than a 4 but less than an 11, they make it to the Rhino, but on your turn the troops inside disembark out the back [which isn't blocked] then wipe out the Guardsmen in melee or in shooting. I think your Rhino is safe. I wouldn't call that a "high chance".

Fast moving units are a threat, but those units are also expensive.

Don't you get both a 3" pile in before attacking and then a 3" consolidate move afterwards?

Yes, so you get a 6" +2D6 then a further 6" by the end of the turn if you make the charge. In other words, if you make that 6" charge you will then get to surround the rhino. A 6" charge is a 26/36 chance. So a high probability of that occurring. (Edit: and since they only need to make 5" with the new rules in this scenario that is 30/36 chance of making it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr BugBear wrote:

If already in combat, a unit with the "Vehicle" or a "Mighty Force" type keyword should be able to move through "Infantry" a number of inches equal to or maybe half their Wounds (since Wounds sort of represent how big/tough/pushy a unit is), but not exceeding its M stat.

Infantry that end up underneath it after it's move could simply be moved to it's sides.

This would allow a big & healthy Baneblade/Land Raider/Tervigon to push through infantry undeterred as they should, but lighter or heavily damaged vehicles get bogged down more easily.

Just thinking out loud

This is perfect and stops rhinos and such getting trapped in melee.

Dakka Wolf wrote:
The best plan is to aknowledge possibilities. If you outright dismiss any and never consider it again that's probably the one that'll get you - and taking a big risk to get a big reward is part of the game we play.

But there's not much point in fretting about the unlikely. Then you'll just get bogged down.

SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

Don't you get both a 3" pile in before attacking and then a 3" consolidate move afterwards?

Yes, but you have to end the move closer to the nearest enemy model. But the tank also gets to pile in and consolidate, and any one of its attackers in B2B with it can be the "nearest enemy model", so it can easily slide back to put the middle of it's nose in contact with the assailiant closest to the back of the tank.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Dakka Wolf wrote:
The best plan is to aknowledge possibilities. If you outright dismiss any and never consider it again that's probably the one that'll get you - and taking a big risk to get a big reward is part of the game we play.

But there's not much point in fretting about the unlikely. Then you'll just get bogged down.

The reason Tank Shocking works for me in the current edition is because people didn't bother fretting about the unlikely and don't see the trap being laid.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yes, but you have to end the move closer to the nearest enemy model. But the tank also gets to pile in and consolidate, and any one of its attackers in B2B with it can be the "nearest enemy model", so it can easily slide back to put the middle of it's nose in contact with the assailiant closest to the back of the tank.

Unless you can use pile in and consolidate moves to pass through enemy models, that won't help if you get surrounded. And if they use their pile in and consolidates to get from an inch away from the front of your tank to B2B contact with your rear, that's still legal.

Assuming I'm reading all the rules right, it almost seems guaranteed that they can surround the rhino as long as they have enough models and make the initial charge. Or aren't conga-lined out in a weird way that keeps most of their models pretty far out.

 Luciferian wrote:
Anywho, vehicles are either; a) an infantry delivery system, or b) a mobile weapons/support platform. Why are you driving them through enemy infantry anyway?!

I can't answer for everyone, but I've used CAD Troop Rhinos (objective secured) to, you know, secure objectives by tank shocking enemies off them. Not every enemy and not every game, but that poor empty transport has often secured a win or draw.

Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Dakka Wolf wrote:
The best plan is to aknowledge possibilities. If you outright dismiss any and never consider it again that's probably the one that'll get you - and taking a big risk to get a big reward is part of the game we play.

But there's not much point in fretting about the unlikely. Then you'll just get bogged down.

The reason Tank Shocking works for me in the current edition is because people didn't bother fretting about the unlikely and don't see the trap being laid.

I've tank shocked four things, I think, ever. Two of them were running over a Catacomb barge with a Shadowsword, one was driving a weapon-destroyed Leman Russ Vanquisher over some Necron Warriors because it had nothing better to try, and the last one was driving an Immolator over a Stormsurge. Of that, I think only the Stormsurge had anything happen to it, and only because of the Storm Anchors rule.

If you have a list dependent upon tank shocks, and it works because it's so strange nobody prepared for it, good for you. But I don't ever go "I'm going to add this to my army in case I get tank shocked". Even getting tank-shocked by battlewagons is uncommon enough for me not to worry.

SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yes, but you have to end the move closer to the nearest enemy model. But the tank also gets to pile in and consolidate, and any one of its attackers in B2B with it can be the "nearest enemy model", so it can easily slide back to put the middle of it's nose in contact with the assailiant closest to the back of the tank.

Unless you can use pile in and consolidate moves to pass through enemy models, that won't help if you get surrounded. And if they use their pile in and consolidates to get from an inch away from the front of your tank to B2B contact with your rear, that's still legal.

Assuming I'm reading all the rules right, it almost seems guaranteed that they can surround the rhino as long as they have enough models and make the initial charge. Or aren't conga-lined out in a weird way that keeps most of their models pretty far out.

I guess so. Your transport crew still has 3" advantage on the enemy troops, so position yourself at 16" instead of 12". You charge on a 6 now, they charge on a 9.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I guess so. Your transport crew still has 3" advantage on the enemy troops, so position yourself at 16" instead of 12". You charge on a 6 now, they charge on a 9.

That actually sounds like a pretty good plan. Might steal this.