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Yup, Da Jump is a good tactic and is probably the best psychic power we have this edition so far, but you are right, its basically a 50/50 about whether or not you are going to be successful in a single charge, or lose 1/4th to 1/6th of your boyz.

With the rule of 3 and the nerf to Alpha Deep Strike our only viable tactic right now is horde and I have long since reached my breaking point with Horde in a tournament environment. I am done playing tournaments until we get something that doesn't involve me moving 250 models a turn.

It's not even the moving for me that's killing me as I have movement trays and aren't interested in optimizing every move so it doesn't take so much time. It's more of the god awful amount of dices we roll and THEN DO NOTHING! It's frustrating to take up piles of models every turn and not have anything reach in numbers to make an impression. Might help if tables were more barren but terrain also has habit of creating road blocks which means enemy can use to divide&conquer.

And then even if we hit into combat it is hard to cause huge casualties and often first line is just chaff anyway so we get exposed to more firing. Losing mob per turn isn't sustainable at this rate.

But how GW plans to fix this...Elite orks that have like 5++ 6+++ W2 doesn't appeal either. Orks should be horde army. But GW has been pushing model counts so high to sell models that it's very hard to make ork hordes to a) feel like horde compared to enemy b) make an impact. Native FNP would certainly help with ork survivability but would add more dice. It's annoying to play dark eldars with their 6+++. Imagine ork army with 250+ models...Especially as FNP vs multi damage weapons just suck rolling. Fun doing 10 knight stomp attacks vs W2 6+++ targets and have to resolve those one at a bloody time.

When you have WS BS 3+ 5+ 6+++ save guys for like 6 pts running around there...Sure S3 T3 but guns and quantity. Plague bearers are fairly easy to have in big piles, bloodletters too. Stealer carpets aren't unusual.

Assault Dice GW app, it's awesome dude. You will never go back to rolling buckets with your hands.

edit: sorry after reading your post more closely it seems you were not annoyed at the time it takes to roll dice, you were just complaining. Ignore me!

So, you're saying that giving your opponent a 50% chance to fail with 3d6+1 charge range for zero cost is bad?

Cool.

 hollow one wrote:
Assault Dice GW app, it's awesome dude. You will never go back to rolling buckets with your hands.

edit: sorry after reading your post more closely it seems you were not annoyed at the time it takes to roll dice, you were just complaining. Ignore me!

I tried getting dice app in use. Of course have yet to find anybody in tournament etc to agree. No surprise seeing those can be faked. Could even do it myself if I wanted and then have bunch of 1's roll bit more 3's and 4's than odds say...And short of somebody doing long extensive statistical analyze of what results I get with my app nobody would be wiser. During one game nobody would even get hint of a suspicion. So I'm not surprised at all nobody outside friend circle trusts. Nevermind the inherit unrandomness of computer random which isn't true random but pseudo random.

But how nice of you just dismiss as mere complaining. Shows more about you and not in a good way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
So, you're saying that giving your opponent a 50% chance to fail with 3d6+1 charge range for zero cost is bad?

Cool.

50%? Opponent needs to roll 10", has minimum of 1 dice rerolled, often all...That does not 50-50 equal. It's far more likely than orks do charge after da jump. Maybe do some math?

And sure it's not all bad but it's not miracle maker that is going to help orks much. In reality effect is going to be fairly minimal rarely seen. Would you go over the moons getting +1LD for grots? Or 1 pts point drop in battlewagon?

Because a 20% drop in successfully completing a 3d6"+1 charge is equal to reducing battlewagons by one point.

Cool.

Other awesome points made by tneva82:
- Units that charge less than 3d6+1" with re-rolls don't exist anywhere in any game ever.

Going back to the tactical issues at hand,
1) trying to do damage to -1 to hit units
2) da jump being a gamble at 50/50 charge odds

Is it possible that there are alternate solutions that may work? For example, having huge mobs of boyz in the backfield is a big threat, so if they miss the charge, they are going to be focused down and die for sure. Solution, da jump a cheaper less threatening unit that makes your opponent make a tough choice of what to shoot.
-1 to hit is pretty common now, but many factions have it as a "more than 12 inches" rule. I present to you: Da Jump a unit of 30 Gretchen. Sounds ridiculous, but consider that they are inside the 12" bubble so don't have -1, they are cheap and expendable so you don't care if they die (just means shots not coming at your boyz), they are 3+ to hit when they show up, and if they actually make the charge.
They can tie units up, capture objectives, and if there is only a few left they can hide, but still score Linebreaker objectives.
Turn two, da Jump a unit of 30 shoota boyz behind the gretchen and use the Dakka strategem. At this point you can drop Kommandoes in as well, and probably make those Advance and charge rolls with the choppa boyz/warboss.
Brilliant, probably not, but possibly a way to get around things until they get better.

I've found myself using Da Jump more often for cheap, throw-away units more than trying to get a giant mob into the enemy lines first turn.


I just noticed that the new recommend base size for AoS Orruks (orcs) is 32mm. I was already thinking about moving my Boyz from 25 to 32 anyways, but I was wondering if this standard in AoS might be an indication of the way things are going to go in 40k?

Larger bases on Boyz would mostly be bad from a competitive standpoint, as it would make it harder to get as many Boyz into combat and to fit as many under a KFF. On the plus side it would give us even better board control (also Boyz that are less likely to tip over and maybe look a bit better).

I'm going to wait until the codex comes out and we have a better idea on where things are going before I make any decisions on rebasing. Pretty much all my hobby projects are on hold until we know more.

Ya, I only run 50 boyz (unit of 30 choppas and 20 shootas) so I guess Da Jump for me risks a lot more than compared to people that run Green Tide.

 Jidmah wrote:
Because a 20% drop in successfully completing a 3d6"+1 charge is equal to reducing battlewagons by one point.

Cool.

Other awesome points made by tneva82:
- Units that charge less than 3d6+1" with re-rolls don't exist anywhere in any game ever.

Yes they exists. But not many of those are used on deep strikes because THEY AREN'T WORTH IT unless they have something awesome going on. Like being very spammable so they don't even care about ork unit and indeed are happy to spend 2 CP. 2d6" charge deep strike is simply so unreliable you cannot make plan for it in competive enviroment. Even orks with da jump can't really make plan for it and orks have it better than most.

So this would be situational boost that won't make much of impact. This kind of "improvements" is exactly what I worry GW will do. Sounds cool but actually doesn't help orks actually becoming useful army. The orks need hell of a lot more love than this one that doesn't make any impact most of the time. Deep strike is mostly realm of shooty guns rather than assaulters. And the assaulters that do it don't rely on 2d6" charges. For a good reason. It...Is...Too...Unreliable.

Orks should not rely on deep strike assaults. And we have it better than most as we have native rerolls. But even then it's too unreliable to plan for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shrapnelbait wrote:

-1 to hit is pretty common now, but many factions have it as a "more than 12 inches" rule. I present to you: Da Jump a unit of 30 Gretchen. Sounds ridiculous, but consider that they are inside the 12" bubble so don't have -1, they are cheap and expendable so you don't care if they die (just means shots not coming at your boyz), they are 3+ to hit when they show up, and if they actually make the charge.
They can tie units up, capture objectives, and if there is only a few left they can hide, but still score Linebreaker objectives.

Been what I have been doing actually. Not really to kill though but to provide dirt cheap blocks for enemy. Divide&conquer. Split part of enemy army with grots, head for other side with boyz.

Hell can't wait to do this for h2h heavy knights. Dirt cheap grot wall they cannot get past. Sure guns kill them by droves and stomps clear them fast but there's plenty more where they came from and they are spending 400-600 pts to clear them and I'm meanwhile stopping like 1000-1500 pts moving much(60" wide wall they can't walk past is fun. Knights can be happy we can't do this for multiple squads in one turn or I would basically layer no-man land with gretchin squads ensuring they pretty much never will get to my DZ. Now at least where 2nd gretchin squad lands will be further toward me than first one).

How Would You guys make a Defensive Ork Strategem for dealing with Deepstrikers?
I think the chance to charge before they even shoot would be great.

I think that’s the best and most obvious one. I can’t think of any others off the top of my head besides something like the old sky fire rules where you could shoot deepstrikers before they land or something

I'm hoping for a strategem that lets us negate the fly keyword for a turn after a successful charge. It would be nice to be able to lock a Fireprism or Riptide into combat.

Some nets that prevent units from falling back would be awesome on kommandoz.

Dojo wrote:How Would You guys make a Defensive Ork Strategem for dealing with Deepstrikers?
I think the chance to charge before they even shoot would be great.

Love it! THAT WOULD BE EPIC.

Shrapnelbait wrote:I'm hoping for a strategem that lets us negate the fly keyword for a turn after a successful charge. It would be nice to be able to lock a Fireprism or Riptide into combat.

Like this too;

"Horde Swarm" - Da Boyz cling on for dear life hackin' an' bashin' an' stabbin' anyfing they can. Fly keyword is negated for any unit locked in combat with the specified ork boyz unit as they attempt to shake off the mass of filthy xenos scum

Could even have it as a stormboyz stratagem, giving them a great role as a mobile pinning unit, Or if locking them in combat is too much, maybe it limits their escape distance? or gives them a free attempt at a re-charge, like a secondary boost or something.

3 CP
"Use after a unit has completed its fallback move from an ORK INFANTRY unit. That ORK unit immediately fights again."

Probably too strong, but hilarious.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I've found myself using Da Jump more often for cheap, throw-away units more than trying to get a giant mob into the enemy lines first turn.


I just noticed that the new recommend base size for AoS Orruks (orcs) is 32mm. I was already thinking about moving my Boyz from 25 to 32 anyways, but I was wondering if this standard in AoS might be an indication of the way things are going to go in 40k?

Larger bases on Boyz would mostly be bad from a competitive standpoint, as it would make it harder to get as many Boyz into combat and to fit as many under a KFF. On the plus side it would give us even better board control (also Boyz that are less likely to tip over and maybe look a bit better).

I'm going to wait until the codex comes out and we have a better idea on where things are going before I make any decisions on rebasing. Pretty much all my hobby projects are on hold until we know more.

Well the thing is Orruks are bigger than Boyz. http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2016/6/8/806059_md-Ironjaw%20Ork%20Comparison.jpg

I think 32mm on Boyz would make unit footprints absolutely enormous so I hope 25mm stays. But Nobz could definitely use 32mm or even 40mm.

 Jidmah wrote:
3 CP
"Use after a unit has completed its fallback move from an ORK INFANTRY unit. That ORK unit immediately fights again."

Probably too strong, but hilarious.

Oh groovy. 3CP and you get to move the 3" pile in and fight. Do you think enemy will let you pile in into combat after fall backing?

Yet another super situational strategem that doesn't really help orks. When core is bad these kinds of hyper situational strategems don't make army any more competive.

Just dissallow enemy units to leave combat for 3 CP. Tbh I think it is more of a problem with melee in 8th in general, rather than specific problem of orks. I do agree with tneva on deepstrike charges - as they are right now you can't make a reliable plan around a coin flip that loses you the game on loss

Would it kill you to think about the fething thing for a second before polluting the forum with even more negativity?

Try falling back from a mob of orks with an infantry unit if they get to pile in and consolidate immediately after.

Also considering that these stratagems can only be in the new codex every assumption about the core of the army is nonsense.

Every single one of your responses amounts to "every thing the previous person said sucks".
How about actually contributing something to the discussion for a change?

 JawRippa wrote:
Just dissallow enemy units to leave combat for 3 CP. Tbh I think it is more of a problem with melee in 8th in general, rather than specific problem of orks. I do agree with tneva on deepstrike charges - as they are right now you can't make a reliable plan around a coin flip that loses you the game on loss

Now THAT strategem would actually be something that would help a lot orks. 3CP is bit steep but then again 18CP isn't super expensive for orks so not unplayably expensive and it would certainly help keeping boyz alive. Especially as orks are slowish so they can't do the "trap one model preventing fall back" as easily as some genestealers.

 Weazel wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I've found myself using Da Jump more often for cheap, throw-away units more than trying to get a giant mob into the enemy lines first turn.


I just noticed that the new recommend base size for AoS Orruks (orcs) is 32mm. I was already thinking about moving my Boyz from 25 to 32 anyways, but I was wondering if this standard in AoS might be an indication of the way things are going to go in 40k?

Larger bases on Boyz would mostly be bad from a competitive standpoint, as it would make it harder to get as many Boyz into combat and to fit as many under a KFF. On the plus side it would give us even better board control (also Boyz that are less likely to tip over and maybe look a bit better).

I'm going to wait until the codex comes out and we have a better idea on where things are going before I make any decisions on rebasing. Pretty much all my hobby projects are on hold until we know more.

Well the thing is Orruks are bigger than Boyz. http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2016/6/8/806059_md-Ironjaw%20Ork%20Comparison.jpg

I think 32mm on Boyz would make unit footprints absolutely enormous so I hope 25mm stays. But Nobz could definitely use 32mm or even 40mm.

The thing with AoS is not every Orc is on the same size base. It's a do what ever you think looks good kinda system. My Bonesplitterz came with 32's so they are on 32's.
I don't like Iron Jaws so I don't own any and have no idea what base sizes they use but I imagine they are on both 32 and 40 MM bases and larger for larger models but they are using old Black Orcs as well as the new larger models so it works. I'm half way through rebasing my Orks now, (Making really cool scrap yard bases.) still on 25MM bases for boys and 32's for Nobs. But as far as I know 8th doesn't enforce any basing standards. I don't go to any major tournaments or what have you so it's not a problem I expect to deal with, should GW put out a "recommended base size guide" like they are for AoS E2. Even then it's only their recommendations to help tournament play and Major events so no ones going to mess with me about my bases. Frankly I am thinking about looking for 20MM rounds for all of my grots, they're small, why not put them on smaller bases. But they are already finished so probably wont bother to do that at this point.

If we get a new kit where the models are a bit larger and supplied with 32's then no problem they'll be on 32's.


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 Jidmah wrote:
Would it kill you to think about the fething thing for a second before polluting the forum with even more negativity?

Try falling back from a mob of orks with an infantry unit if they get to pile in and consolidate immediately after.

Also considering that these stratagems can only be in the new codex every assumption about the core of the army is nonsense.

Every single one of your responses amounts to "every thing the previous person said sucks".
How about actually contributing something to the discussion for a change?

Exactly. I'd use this one it would let me gain objectives or at least take them away from my opponents so they ha to fight for them possibly taking points away from them on their own turn. It forces their hand they would have to stay in combat to protect what they have or commit more force to wipe out my units. Just the possibility that my orks could do something near a crucial point on the table is powerful.
You can't think strictly in terms of butchering the enemy, you need to think about taking their lunch money as well.

 Jidmah wrote:
Would it kill you to think about the fething thing for a second before polluting the forum with even more negativity?

Try falling back from a mob of orks with an infantry unit if they get to pile in and consolidate immediately after.

Also considering that these stratagems can only be in the new codex every assumption about the core of the army is nonsense.

Every single one of your responses amounts to "every thing the previous person said sucks".
How about actually contributing something to the discussion for a change?

Ah yes trying to point out why strategem isn't awesome and maybe think better one is just polluting with negativity.

Hopefully GW developers are doing better job than you thinking of useful. Any normal unit can move so far the orks won't actually attack when they use this strategem. you spent 3CP for nothing.

If there's super situational strategem that won't be helpful I point it out rather than pretend it's great awesome strategy. This way maybe there might be born useful strategem...

But guess concept of "dig holes, see how it could be improved" is too advanced concept for you and you are just happy with whatever first version is. And then wonder later why it sucks. But generally "think first do later" leads to better result than "do first, then start to think" which clerarly is your modus operandi.

If you just go "lalallalalalalalalaaala there are no problems everything is fine" then you end up like what GW has. Rules that don't work(you literally cannot play 8th ed RAW) and balance totally broken. If there's problem you need to a) admit there's problem b) think how to fix it. Not pretend there isn't problem.

I seriously hope you never get to design game since any 1st draft for you is sacred inviolable perfect masterwork of genius and heaven forbid anybody to point out even obvious flaws in it.

Oh and if you think core of army will be changed you need to provide those changes if you want those to be factored in with strategem. Otherwise your arqument is 100% worthless. Provide what other changes there are or shut up about claiming "but core will be changed"

Now next do everybody a favour and go read game design ABC. You will learn for example 1st version is never perfect.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Because a 20% drop in successfully completing a 3d6"+1 charge is equal to reducing battlewagons by one point.

Cool.

Other awesome points made by tneva82:
- Units that charge less than 3d6+1" with re-rolls don't exist anywhere in any game ever.

Yes they exists. But not many of those are used on deep strikes because THEY AREN'T WORTH IT unless they have something awesome going on. Like being very spammable so they don't even care about ork unit and indeed are happy to spend 2 CP. 2d6" charge deep strike is simply so unreliable you cannot make plan for it in competive enviroment. Even orks with da jump can't really make plan for it and orks have it better than most.

So this would be situational boost that won't make much of impact. This kind of "improvements" is exactly what I worry GW will do. Sounds cool but actually doesn't help orks actually becoming useful army. The orks need hell of a lot more love than this one that doesn't make any impact most of the time. Deep strike is mostly realm of shooty guns rather than assaulters. And the assaulters that do it don't rely on 2d6" charges. For a good reason. It...Is...Too...Unreliable.

Orks should not rely on deep strike assaults. And we have it better than most as we have native rerolls. But even then it's too unreliable to plan for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shrapnelbait wrote:

-1 to hit is pretty common now, but many factions have it as a "more than 12 inches" rule. I present to you: Da Jump a unit of 30 Gretchen. Sounds ridiculous, but consider that they are inside the 12" bubble so don't have -1, they are cheap and expendable so you don't care if they die (just means shots not coming at your boyz), they are 3+ to hit when they show up, and if they actually make the charge.
They can tie units up, capture objectives, and if there is only a few left they can hide, but still score Linebreaker objectives.

Been what I have been doing actually. Not really to kill though but to provide dirt cheap blocks for enemy. Divide&conquer. Split part of enemy army with grots, head for other side with boyz.

Hell can't wait to do this for h2h heavy knights. Dirt cheap grot wall they cannot get past. Sure guns kill them by droves and stomps clear them fast but there's plenty more where they came from and they are spending 400-600 pts to clear them and I'm meanwhile stopping like 1000-1500 pts moving much(60" wide wall they can't walk past is fun. Knights can be happy we can't do this for multiple squads in one turn or I would basically layer no-man land with gretchin squads ensuring they pretty much never will get to my DZ. Now at least where 2nd gretchin squad lands will be further toward me than first one).

I thought units with titanic can walk over other units. I guess if you space them to max coherency and fill up choke points on the battlefield the gretchin could be effective roadblocks. But not in open terrain if they are in a line and can just be stepped over.

Edit: it seems it is only when falling back. But still they stomp you for a turn then fallback , however going forward over the grots, then shoot your other units before charging. So it seem as though it would help for a turn. Like a speed bump. I have killed a knight in just over 1 turn with a 30 boy squad( I charged it and then finished it on opponents turn). With back up from ghaz and his buff as well as a banner nob. The knight players mistake was to single out ghaz and still take tons of dice from the boyz.

Just to spell it out, since you are obviously don't now as much as the basic rules:

"Fight again" with no enemies in range, means "move 6" towards the closest enemy unit".

Any normal unit can move so far the orks won't actually attack when they use this strategem. you spent 3CP for nothing.

Most "normal units" can't move more than 7". You simply follow them and lock them in combat again. They can't shoot, you cannot be shot and you get to fight them in the combat phase of the enemy turn.
- Or -
You use your pile in move to lock down even more units, since the bubble wrap just fell back, allowing you fight those units, and still not getting shot.
- Or -
You just fight again with any unit locked in combat in addition to the one that fell back, potentially killing off characters or units that were subject of a multi-charge or pile-in before they can fall back as well.

You get a lot more than just "the enemy can't fall back" for your CP, unless you are fighting a unit with more than 7" movement speed without any other units within 7".

 Jidmah wrote:
Just to spell it out, since you are obviously don't now as much as the basic rules:

"Fight again" with no enemies in range, means "move 6" towards the closest enemy unit".

Any normal unit can move so far the orks won't actually attack when they use this strategem. you spent 3CP for nothing.

Most "normal units" can't move more than 7". You simply follow them and lock them in combat again. They can't shoot, you cannot be shot and you get to fight them in the combat phase of the enemy turn.
- Or -
You use your pile in move to lock down even more units, since the bubble wrap just fell back, allowing you fight those units, and still not getting shot.
- Or -
You just fight again with any unit locked in combat in addition to the one that fell back, potentially killing off characters or units that were subject of a multi-charge or pile-in before they can fall back as well.

You get a lot more than just "the enemy can't fall back" for your CP, unless you are fighting a unit with more than 7" movement speed without any other units within 7".

This would be brilliant.
Turn one Mob up 10+30 boys and jump, attempt charge.
If the charge works good! Turn two Move Storm boys right up for an easy charge, pop Kommandos 10+15, mob up ready to charge. Jump in another 30 boys for another charge.
if that first 40 was able to trap a falling back unit and lock another unit. The other player is trapped congested and stuck.
Mean while gorts and trukks or takks move onto objectives. Artillery pound the enemy units like tanks or single model units you just want to soften up.
Sounds like a good game probably over in 3 turns. But it depends on the mission and the opponent. I like it.

Just locking a unit on combat "the other way" seems strange with out addressing units that fly. does this lock them as well? Probably not. So if they are common place then the first version is stronger as things like Harlequins just ninja flip away because of their own rules so you probably didn't spend the CP's ahead of time. The first version I think is a lot more powerful.

I don't think it's a bad stratagem, it would let you conceivably catch any unit with less than 8" of movement, which might make it too good in some ways.

Orks don't necessarily need it, if a model can't move without moving through enemy models it can't fallback, Orks don't have a hard time surrounding a model in an unit to prevent fallback movement if you don't move into base to base during the charge and consolidate, and use your pile in to move closer to the enemy but also around them.

I'd like to see dakka dakka dakka get reworked so that it also allows rerolls of misses.

 Weazel wrote:
Well the thing is Orruks are bigger than Boyz. http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2016/6/8/806059_md-Ironjaw%20Ork%20Comparison.jpg

I think 32mm on Boyz would make unit footprints absolutely enormous so I hope 25mm stays. But Nobz could definitely use 32mm or even 40mm.

It's true that Ironjawz 'Ardboyz are bigger than 40k Boyz, but I was referring to Greenskinz Orruks which are the same size as 40k Boyz.

Sorry I should have been specific that I was referring to the unit "Orruks" and not the species "Orruks".

The megaboss looks awesome. Does anyone know of a proper sized power klaw he could have in his left hand?

I personnaly remplaced all the left arm with a Killa Kan arm and klaw