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2018/06/30 23:15:00
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
It'd be nice to see walkers as a viable add-on to lists in addition to being effective as a dred mob. I'm not too much of a fan of units that only work in an all-or-nothing list.
2018/07/01 00:22:05
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
It's funny, I like running green tide in aos, bUT it's agrivating to have to do it in 40k. If orks have technology then I like the idea of them hosting hordes of walkers and vehicles like Buggies and trukks, and then you add boyz (I didnt play much before 7th, but for all it faults 7th had an emphasis on toys before boyz, and I liked that, now I love how 8th plays but I can't stand that green tide is our only viable option).
"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"
geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket"
2018/07/01 08:21:54
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
our army needs a cost effective answer to Knights, a gork or mork doesnt cut it at its current effectiveness or point value. And the Answer cannot be boyz this time. People should fear out Nauts, not just casually dismiss them. They should essentially be our Knights, less good at shooting but harder to kill and more stabby.
2018/07/01 09:59:08
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
ah, I've got a couple of little rules questions...
passengers in an open-topped trukk...can they fire overwatch?...or can they only fire in the shooting phase?
the dakkadakkadakka stratagem...if I use that on a squad of tankbustas, with bomb squigs, if I roll 6's to hit with the bomb squigs, do they get a second attack? or are they still destroyed before that would trigger?
(I'm assuming the answer is "no" to both of them, but hey, I'd be happy to be wrong! )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/01 10:00:35
...it's good to be green!
2018/07/01 10:49:48
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
1) The charging unit is charging the transport, not the unit inside, and since open topped only allows shooting in the shooting phase, they would not be allowed to fire overwatch even if another rule allowed them to do so.
2) This actually does work. Since you immediately make the attack after rolling your to hit, you technically finish resolving the second attack before rolling to wound for your first one. There is also no indications in the rules or FAQs that you must stop resolving an attack if your model gets killed in the middle its resolution. The squig simply explodes twice
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2018/07/01 11:53:51
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
So, speculation here.1 thing I hope for are at least generous price decreases.
My evidence for this is the homunculus covens of the dark eldar, my brother who plays them says that units like the talos and cronis got way cheaper (quoted from him..."Don't have my books on me, but they got much cheaper. Talos used to be like 230 now it's 160, and cronos used to be 200 now it's like 70").
That's easily around half price off for those iconic covens models.
This gives me hope for our dreddmob. If you didn't know the talos and cronos are the deldar monstrous creatures. They are characterized by being tough, slow moving and good in melee. If this sounds familiar to every close combat focused dredd then this is the deldar version. Unfortunately at the start of 8th in the index they were realy expensive, but as stated above got big price decreases in the codex.
If we cut half the price of our non fw walkers it would look like this (went for cheapest upgrades)
Killa kans at 32
Deffdredds at 65
Gorkanauts 175
Morkanauts with kff at 170
If at least this happens in our codex then I would be a happy camper. I would take a dreddmob to my next tournament in a heart beat.
How about you guys, would you forgo the green tide if our walkers were buffed like this?
Killa Kanz at 32 points would at least be more efficient then Ork Boyz vs small arms fire. A list with fifty+ Killa Kanz could fit inside a 2k list, I'd be willing to bet that would be a touch too many. But I am prenaming it Trash Kan tide and wouldn't mind growing Kanz all edition.
Outside of attrition strats from another toughness family, why does one bring a walker? Well, really just to have another hurking klaw standing in the ork boz's big footprint, which any character will do much more safely. Our walkers almost need some manufactured synergy in the form of an aura to be in a mixed list.
At 32 points a Killa Kan could almost be the shooty element in a Nobz/Kanz army that is backed by mek Gunz.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/01 11:54:47
I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works.
2018/07/01 13:23:27
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Rismonite wrote: Killa Kanz at 32 points would at least be more efficient then Ork Boyz vs small arms fire. A list with fifty+ Killa Kanz could fit inside a 2k list, I'd be willing to bet that would be a touch too many. But I am prenaming it Trash Kan tide and wouldn't mind growing Kanz all edition.
Rule of three kind of prevents that.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2018/07/01 13:43:36
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Rismonite wrote: Killa Kanz at 32 points would at least be more efficient then Ork Boyz vs small arms fire. A list with fifty+ Killa Kanz could fit inside a 2k list, I'd be willing to bet that would be a touch too many. But I am prenaming it Trash Kan tide and wouldn't mind growing Kanz all edition.
Rule of three kind of prevents that.
And I'm so glad it does. Having a special unit spammed in a list feels so cheesy. It's worse when that is the only way to get a victory.
2018/07/01 14:06:27
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Rismonite wrote: Killa Kanz at 32 points would at least be more efficient then Ork Boyz vs small arms fire. A list with fifty+ Killa Kanz could fit inside a 2k list, I'd be willing to bet that would be a touch too many. But I am prenaming it Trash Kan tide and wouldn't mind growing Kanz all edition.
Rule of three kind of prevents that.
You have to admit though, when you read 50+ Killa Kanz on the table your orky heart stopped for a second in pure joy. At 32pts I could actually buy 6 more Kanz and not think im wasting even more money on my favorite units (I Have 12 already). I could also justify buying another 2-4 Deff Dreadz (I have 2). I would almost assuredly buy a second Naut and make a pair of brothers to form the center pieces to my Walker Army.
Ive been saying all edition that ALL of our vehicles are drastically over priced, I had kind of hoped CA would fix some of these issues, here's hoping that they didn't fix them because they wanted the codex first, to address synergy issues associated with prices.
Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
I'd say somewhere inbetween, about 50pts.
They're not made of tinfoil, as they were before. They are more durable and can charge in to soak overwatch.
But 80 is just too much, I'd rather footslog for that cost. And it makes combining them with units like Tankbustas a much bigger points sink.
2018/07/01 15:28:33
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
Trukks should go back to 35 points because the current trukk is basically in the same design space as open topped battlewagons are. As I explained in a previous thread they would need a massive drop in survivability first, as their current profile would break the game in half at 35 points.
I see no problem with a 35 point trukk that has the stat-line of a buggy though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/01 18:29:03
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2018/07/01 19:28:49
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
Trukks should go back to 35 points because the current trukk is basically in the same design space as open topped battlewagons are. As I explained in a previous thread they would need a massive drop in survivability first, as their current profile would break the game in half at 35 points.
I see no problem with a 35 point trukk that has the stat-line of a buggy though.
I was thinking something along the same lines. It's not just that trukks are overpriced for what they are, it's that even if they were more fairly priced they would still be pretty expensive for putting Boyz in. I'd rather trukks be really cheap, really fast transports that are easy to destroy and battlewagons be the tough moving bunkers for expensive units.
YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA!
2018/07/01 20:41:17
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
In regards to a cost effective method for Knights I'm banking on them drastically reducing the Stompas point cost and perhaps giving us more variety in terms of weapons/variants. GW has seen how good big models sell, don't think it's to far out of the realm of possibility for one or both.
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
2018/07/01 23:51:09
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
Trukks should go back to 35 points because the current trukk is basically in the same design space as open topped battlewagons are. As I explained in a previous thread they would need a massive drop in survivability first, as their current profile would break the game in half at 35 points.
I see no problem with a 35 point trukk that has the stat-line of a buggy though.
I was thinking something along the same lines. It's not just that trukks are overpriced for what they are, it's that even if they were more fairly priced they would still be pretty expensive for putting Boyz in. I'd rather trukks be really cheap, really fast transports that are easy to destroy and battlewagons be the tough moving bunkers for expensive units.
Yeah, I'd be fine with them being the equivalent of Venoms for Orks, with Battlewagons being the more meaty transport. I mean, given the lacklustre shooting from the Big Shoota or Rokkit, there's not much else for a Trukk to do to be honest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gmaleron wrote: In regards to a cost effective method for Knights I'm banking on them drastically reducing the Stompas point cost and perhaps giving us more variety in terms of weapons/variants. GW has seen how good big models sell, don't think it's to far out of the realm of possibility for one or both.
I'm a little skeptical of Stompas getting good in any real capacity. The rules for them have never really been that good, with the kustom version from FW being the exception. I feel like they need an entire overhaul with higher in built-ballistic skill and some form of invuln/improved version of ramshackle to deal with how lacklustre they are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/01 23:54:57
2018/07/02 14:57:27
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
Trukks should go back to 35 points because the current trukk is basically in the same design space as open topped battlewagons are. As I explained in a previous thread they would need a massive drop in survivability first, as their current profile would break the game in half at 35 points.
I see no problem with a 35 point trukk that has the stat-line of a buggy though.
I was thinking something along the same lines. It's not just that trukks are overpriced for what they are, it's that even if they were more fairly priced they would still be pretty expensive for putting Boyz in. I'd rather trukks be really cheap, really fast transports that are easy to destroy and battlewagons be the tough moving bunkers for expensive units.
Yeah, I'd be fine with them being the equivalent of Venoms for Orks, with Battlewagons being the more meaty transport. I mean, given the lacklustre shooting from the Big Shoota or Rokkit, there's not much else for a Trukk to do to be honest..
Venoms are allready tougher than trukks. And faster. And shootier. And cheaper. And correlate with the rest of the list.
2018/07/03 04:47:00
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
SemperMortis wrote: Out of idle curiosity, do people think Trukkz should go back down to 35pts (since you don't need a Ram anymore) or do you feel 80pts is closer to where they should be?
Trukks should go back to 35 points because the current trukk is basically in the same design space as open topped battlewagons are. As I explained in a previous thread they would need a massive drop in survivability first, as their current profile would break the game in half at 35 points.
I see no problem with a 35 point trukk that has the stat-line of a buggy though.
I was thinking something along the same lines. It's not just that trukks are overpriced for what they are, it's that even if they were more fairly priced they would still be pretty expensive for putting Boyz in. I'd rather trukks be really cheap, really fast transports that are easy to destroy and battlewagons be the tough moving bunkers for expensive units.
I think Trukks are too much in the middle currently. They definitely cost too much for what they do, but just dropping the points might upset balance a little. Considering a 12 man unit of Boyz is pretty much useless, a Trukk is basically heavy armor for elite units, but not priced that way. Perhaps a bit of a point drop to say 50, but give them something like boarding ramps that allow disembark after move.
2018/07/03 10:44:01
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Soo... zero surprises here.
Well, maybe the absence of stormboyz is noteworthy. We probably have reached the point where the ork players just assume that they lose 90+ boyz during the firs two turns anyways, so there is little difference between storm boyz and boyz.
The field is full of knights, so let's see how those four do.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2018/07/03 12:08:11
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Soo... zero surprises here.
Well, maybe the absence of stormboyz is noteworthy. We probably have reached the point where the ork players just assume that they lose 90+ boyz during the firs two turns anyways, so there is little difference between storm boyz and boyz.
The field is full of knights, so let's see how those four do.
I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works.
2018/07/03 12:21:56
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Some people simply want to run their army. There is nothing else in the ork codex run besides the stuff you see in their lists.
Some of them will have boyz left even if they lose 45 boyz per turn for five turns.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 12:23:15
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2018/07/03 12:23:43
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Rismonite wrote: I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
What? 90 stormboyz dies just as fast and costs more. Anything else is even worse. Orks are in position where they need to accept they take tons of casualties and hope like hell they survive until game over(probably from time)
It's boyz spam or take something other than orks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 12:24:10
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/07/03 14:12:40
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Rismonite wrote: I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
What? 90 stormboyz dies just as fast and costs more. Anything else is even worse. Orks are in position where they need to accept they take tons of casualties and hope like hell they survive until game over(probably from time)
It's boyz spam or take something other than orks.
Yea, a tankbusta or loota costs 2x or 3x but still dies at a rate of 90 per turn.
Kind of surprised there isn't a grot storm list.
2018/07/03 14:35:30
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Grots are wounded on 2+ by almost anything and take a lot more casualties from morale due to no mob rule. They also won't be killing anything, so the opponent can just shoot whatever he needs to archive missions or maximize casualties, while a full mob of boyz is really dangerous to anything that's not T8 or has 10+ wounds.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2018/07/03 15:43:56
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Jidmah wrote:Some people simply want to run their army. There is nothing else in the ork codex run besides the stuff you see in their lists.
Some of them will have boyz left even if they lose 45 boyz per turn for five turns.
tneva82 wrote:
Rismonite wrote: I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
What? 90 stormboyz dies just as fast and costs more. Anything else is even worse. Orks are in position where they need to accept they take tons of casualties and hope like hell they survive until game over(probably from time)
Rismonite wrote: I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
What? 90 stormboyz dies just as fast and costs more. Anything else is even worse. Orks are in position where they need to accept they take tons of casualties and hope like hell they survive until game over(probably from time)
It's boyz spam or take something other than orks.
Yea, a tankbusta or loota costs 2x or 3x but still dies at a rate of 90 per turn.
Kind of surprised there isn't a grot storm list.
It does indeed look like common sense when you assume I meant Stormboyz or Tankbustas. But is an army that kills 90x6 = 450 points of Ork Boyz also killing 450/42 = 10+ Meganobz in two turns? Are TAC armies doing this?
"Meganobz suck" "Everything is bad"
Yes.. yes I know, thanks for the replies. Are TAC armies really handing out all this dakka?
EDIT Can you guyz design an army that kills 90 Ork Boyz in two turns and would also kill more then ten meganobz in two turns?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 15:45:34
I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works.
2018/07/03 17:56:44
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
10 meganobz aren't all that tough. With all the d2 and even d3(flat, not random) 10 meganobz are not hard. I have lost 5 of those to not even half of enemy shooting. Yeah if you face bolters only they are good. What about all those -1 or -2 often multiwound attacks that roll lots of dices?
And yes same army also took out about 200 boyz without too much of a trouble.
Top of that their damage output isn't that hot. Not that many attacks, few guys, -1 to hit.
And atleast 200 boyz survive more than 2 turns
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 17:58:37
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/07/03 20:53:20
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
I wish I understood the professional scene. Orkz losing 90 boyz turn 1&2 screams 'run something else' to me.
You mean other factions?
lmao, that is basically what I read
Nothing, and I do mean NOTHING in our codex is as good as Ork boyz, not even close. A stormboy is a faster MORE EXPENSIVE boy, that doesn't benefit from having 20+ Models, a Kommando horde can't be taken anymore, and even when they could it was a gimmick, surprising your opponent with 120 Models in the 1st turn assault phase was just fun to watch the demoralization dawn across his face. But at 9ppm and being significantly worse then boyz point for point they aren't that great, and with the nerf to turn 1 assault AND rule of 3 they are dead as well.
Meganobz? T5 infantry with a 2+ save?....if only factions had S6-10 ranged weapons that had -3+ AP and multi damage....like plasma, melta, lascannon, etc etc etc. Kill 1 meganob with a lascannon and you just made your points back. Plus they are so slow and expensive they require a transport, so theres another 80-160pts wasted.
Regular nobz? worse then boyz
Warbikers? 27pts for a boy model with a short ranged S5 gun? no thanks. especially after they lost their cover save/jink
I mean I could keep going but basically everything is crap compared to boyz. The only thing that is worth taking is KMKs, and buffing characters...that is about it.
Are Meganobz still slower on-foot than Boyz? And, like, what's the point ratio? Could you trade a 30 boyz mob for 15 Meganobz? Could you, instead of running 180 boyz footslogging in 6 mobz, run 90, or even 60 Meganobz in 3 or 4 mobz? Could the same enemy firepower that takes out those 90 meganobz in a turn, as they could 90 boyz?
Also, Meganobz can be Da Jump'd, like Boyz, right?
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
If yer an Ork, why dont ya WAAAGH!!
M.A.V.- if you liked ChromeHounds, drop by the site and give it a go. Or check out my M.A.V. Oneshots videos on YouTube!
2018/07/04 00:38:14
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Anvildude wrote: Are Meganobz still slower on-foot than Boyz? And, like, what's the point ratio? Could you trade a 30 boyz mob for 15 Meganobz? Could you, instead of running 180 boyz footslogging in 6 mobz, run 90, or even 60 Meganobz in 3 or 4 mobz? Could the same enemy firepower that takes out those 90 meganobz in a turn, as they could 90 boyz?
Also, Meganobz can be Da Jump'd, like Boyz, right?
Meganobz are 42pts each, or equivalent to 7 boyz. They have 3 T5 wounds and a 2+ save and are Movement 4. They have NO invuln and the only way to get one is to take a Big Mek with a KFF. So what you get is a 42pt model that every lascannon and heavy weapon in the game will be pointed at. Even failing that, most factions spam enough anti-infantry weapons to ice these guys pretty quickly, and that is before you even get into gimmicks. There are so many -2+ AP weapons in the game with multi damage that its impossible to run these dudes. And each one you lose is equivalent to losing 7 boyz, so you can field 4 Meganobz or 28 Boyz. By my math that means you get more then TWICE as many wounds for boyz, as well as significantly better leadership...Ohh did I mention that Meganobz are LD 7 (6 if you lose the boss nob).
)
...it's good to be green! 
to hit, you technically finish resolving the second attack before rolling to wound for your first one. There is also no indications in the rules or 
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
