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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea your friend is wrong on the Lootas. Dakka says make an additional shooting attack. A shooting attack is one dice only. So an assault 2 weapon makes 2 shooting attacks.

You are correct in that the characteristics in the rule refer to the S, AP etc if they are modifiable.

I know this is probably the correct interpretation of the rules, but just to play devils advocate a second...

Noise marines have music of the apocalypse, which says that when a model is slain, it may make “a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons". Which has been ruled as being able to shoot its assault 3 sonic blaster once, which means they get 3 shots.

However I agree that dakkax3 is meant to just be one additional bullet for every 6 rolled.

2 shoota shots is equivalent to 1 swing in close combat. That is the way I justify using shootas.

Big shootas cost too much, and we can't take enough of them to matter. If we could take a unit of just big shootas that would be great.

Niiru wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea your friend is wrong on the Lootas. Dakka says make an additional shooting attack. A shooting attack is one dice only. So an assault 2 weapon makes 2 shooting attacks.

You are correct in that the characteristics in the rule refer to the S, AP etc if they are modifiable.

I know this is probably the correct interpretation of the rules, but just to play devils advocate a second...

Noise marines have music of the apocalypse, which says that when a model is slain, it may make “a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons". Which has been ruled as being able to shoot its assault 3 sonic blaster once, which means they get 3 shots.

However I agree that dakkax3 is meant to just be one additional bullet for every 6 rolled.

You'll have to quote the exact wording of music of the apocalypse as I don't know it myself but I thought it said a unit may "fire one of its ranged weapons". If it states a "shooting attack" and it has been ruled that they can shoot 3 shots from an Assault weapon then you are correct in that it brings up confusion with Dakka!x3.

A "Shooting Attack" according to the BRB is one shot, regardless of the type of weapon though. I checked that when Dakka!x3 came out as a stratagem last year.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea your friend is wrong on the Lootas. Dakka says make an additional shooting attack. A shooting attack is one dice only. So an assault 2 weapon makes 2 shooting attacks.

You are correct in that the characteristics in the rule refer to the S, AP etc if they are modifiable.

I know this is probably the correct interpretation of the rules, but just to play devils advocate a second...

Noise marines have music of the apocalypse, which says that when a model is slain, it may make “a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons". Which has been ruled as being able to shoot its assault 3 sonic blaster once, which means they get 3 shots.

However I agree that dakkax3 is meant to just be one additional bullet for every 6 rolled.

You'll have to quote the exact wording of music of the apocalypse as I don't know it myself but I thought it said a unit may "fire one of its ranged weapons". If it states a "shooting attack" and it has been ruled that they can shoot 3 shots from an Assault weapon then you are correct in that it brings up confusion with Dakka!x3.

A "Shooting Attack" according to the BRB is one shot, regardless of the type of weapon though. I checked that when Dakka!x3 came out as a stratagem last year.

Copy/paste from codex - "the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade"

Niiru wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea your friend is wrong on the Lootas. Dakka says make an additional shooting attack. A shooting attack is one dice only. So an assault 2 weapon makes 2 shooting attacks.

You are correct in that the characteristics in the rule refer to the S, AP etc if they are modifiable.

I know this is probably the correct interpretation of the rules, but just to play devils advocate a second...

Noise marines have music of the apocalypse, which says that when a model is slain, it may make “a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons". Which has been ruled as being able to shoot its assault 3 sonic blaster once, which means they get 3 shots.

However I agree that dakkax3 is meant to just be one additional bullet for every 6 rolled.

You'll have to quote the exact wording of music of the apocalypse as I don't know it myself but I thought it said a unit may "fire one of its ranged weapons". If it states a "shooting attack" and it has been ruled that they can shoot 3 shots from an Assault weapon then you are correct in that it brings up confusion with Dakka!x3.

A "Shooting Attack" according to the BRB is one shot, regardless of the type of weapon though. I checked that when Dakka!x3 came out as a stratagem last year.

Copy/paste from codex - "the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade"

Here is the rule again so that people don't have to hunt. I have posted the Dakka Dakka Dakka strategem as comparison to what the Ork army special rule is as well.

seems pretty clear. I also play Mordians and their stratagem lets them shoot the whole weapon over again unlike Dakkax3

Nuck Fewton wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, what I meant was basically opportunity cost, which was why I considered big shootas (with their current profile and points, as well as their availability on units) to be functionally worth 0.

Also, if I could take a unit full of big shootas, I'd totes go for it. ALL THE DAKKA!

I'm currently taking inventory on my orks in prep for fixing them up/touching up paint for Orktober. I have found that I have a metric assload of big shoota boys. It seems a shame that they never see table time. I'd run a unit of them at the drop of a squig. I guess I could use them as lootas? They seem too lightly armed for that.

I converted all my big shoota guys into rocket pistol tankbustas. Just glue any kind of rocket on top of the barrel of the big shoota, then add a couple tankbusta-y bits and you're good to go.

 Rismonite wrote:
Anybody else wonder if big shootas would be good on vehicles if we could take like.. twenty of them on a trukk?

edit, I think I've posted this very idea here once

/orkswoon

So, on a regular trukk (76pts) you add 20 Big Shootas at 6pts a piece for a grand total of 196pts, it now fires 60 shots, gets 20 hits and against Space Marines equals about 14 wounds. Against a 3+ save that is about 5 dead Marines. So 195pts of a gunwagon (that is what it would be) managed to kill 65pts of Marines, that isn't actually that bad, My rule of thumb is that a mediocre ranged unit should be able to kill 1/3rd of its point total a turn (that is my opinion only) So with that in mind it falls perfectly at 1/3rd. The problem is that you now have a GIGANTIC target on its back and it won't make it past turn 1. So in contrast, a single Space Marine Dev squad with Lascannons and a Cherub will be dishing out 5 shots for about 3-4 hits and 2-3 wounds which do 7.5 or 10 wounds on average depending on rolls, completely ignoring the trukks save. So that means a single 170pt space marine squad would make back its points and then some in 1 turn.

The biggest problem with Big Shootas is that they are compared to Heavy Bolters for Space Marines. They aren't. A Big Shoota is more equivalent to a Space Marine Stormbolter then it is any other weapon in terms of damage. Last time I checked, a Stormbolter was 2pts a model not 6, With that in mind I think a Big Shoota should be priced at 2pts not 6, in that same example as above that brings the Trukkz overall cost from 196pts down to 116pts which means it goes from 1/3rd damage/pts to better than 1/2 damage/pts.

On a related note, I think the only way to make the Kustom shoota appreciably different from the Big Shoota would be to make it a 1pt upgrade and make it Assault 6 not 4pts and Assault 4. The math on that Kustom Shoota is 6 shots, 2 hits 1 wound against T4 which means 1/3rd of a chance to kill a single Marine a turn.

Part of the pricing is that GW STILL doesn't take the BS of the unit into account when calculating values, I'd bet.



But yeah, I still think that a good way to make the Orks more Orky, and also more competitive, is to completely open all Wargear options to all units- and have no upper limit on quantity on vehicles.

You want to spend ALL 2000 POINTS on a single Battlewagon with 50 Killkannons? Okay! Or model up a grinding, gnashing thresher of death and have it count as 5 Deffrollas, or hide a Trukk under a hill of Big Shootas and Rokkets? yeah, sure, why not!

I can't say for certain in regards to GW factoring in BS but I can guarantee they don't do it for durability AND ballistic skill. One look at a Morkanaut compared to a Knight and it is self evident.

Niiru wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea your friend is wrong on the Lootas. Dakka says make an additional shooting attack. A shooting attack is one dice only. So an assault 2 weapon makes 2 shooting attacks.

You are correct in that the characteristics in the rule refer to the S, AP etc if they are modifiable.

I know this is probably the correct interpretation of the rules, but just to play devils advocate a second...

Noise marines have music of the apocalypse, which says that when a model is slain, it may make “a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons". Which has been ruled as being able to shoot its assault 3 sonic blaster once, which means they get 3 shots.

However I agree that dakkax3 is meant to just be one additional bullet for every 6 rolled.

You'll have to quote the exact wording of music of the apocalypse as I don't know it myself but I thought it said a unit may "fire one of its ranged weapons". If it states a "shooting attack" and it has been ruled that they can shoot 3 shots from an Assault weapon then you are correct in that it brings up confusion with Dakka!x3.

A "Shooting Attack" according to the BRB is one shot, regardless of the type of weapon though. I checked that when Dakka!x3 came out as a stratagem last year.

Copy/paste from codex - "the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade"

And here's a copy/paste from the BRB that seems to go directly against the ruling made for the Noise Marines;
"Number of Attacks
Each time a model shoots a ranged
weapon, it will make a number of attacks.
You roll one dice for each attack being
made. The number of attacks a model
can make with a weapon, and therefore
the number of dice you can roll, is found
on the weapon’s profile, along with the
weapon’s type. A weapon’s type can
impact the number of attacks it can make
(see overleaf)."

Where is the rules that noise marines can shoot more than once when not throwing a grenade? I cannot find it.

 JimOnMars wrote:

Nuck Fewton wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:


I converted all my big shoota guys into rocket pistol tankbustas. Just glue any kind of rocket on top of the barrel of the big shoota, then add a couple tankbusta-y bits and you're good to go.

Not a bad idea but I have old tankbustas that are armed with bombs and sluggas. The Sluggas are getting rokkit tips for rokkit pistol conversions.

maybe I'll slap a bunch more ammo/gubbinz on them and run them as lootas anyway

Y'know the dakkax3 rule is really going to help armies focused on rokkits, kustom-mega, and lootas a lot more than just a bunch of shootas. Getting another shot with a rokkit is a lot more appealing than just another shoota shot.

This could lead to some interesting army builds down the road, granted they make those high-damage weapons more worthwhile.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Y'know the dakkax3 rule is really going to help armies focused on rokkits, kustom-mega, and lootas a lot more than just a bunch of shootas. Getting another shot with a rokkit is a lot more appealing than just another shoota shot.

This could lead to some interesting army builds down the road, granted they make those high-damage weapons more worthwhile.

Except that units that take rokkitz can't take them in large numbers except for TankBustas. Your average Mob of boyz with 3 rokkitz will get exactly 3 extra shots a game which means 1 extra hit a game, that is if every turn they fire and they survive all 6 rounds to shoot. So they go from 18 shots with 6 hits to 21 shots with 7 hits a game.

For Lootas. 15 Lootas average 30 shots a turn which is 5 rolls of a 6 on average which means 2 extra hits total. So they go from 10 hits to 12, again, not exactly game breaking or making a unit go from trash to useful.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Y'know the dakkax3 rule is really going to help armies focused on rokkits, kustom-mega, and lootas a lot more than just a bunch of shootas. Getting another shot with a rokkit is a lot more appealing than just another shoota shot.

This could lead to some interesting army builds down the road, granted they make those high-damage weapons more worthwhile.

Except that units that take rokkitz can't take them in large numbers except for TankBustas. Your average Mob of boyz with 3 rokkitz will get exactly 3 extra shots a game which means 1 extra hit a game, that is if every turn they fire and they survive all 6 rounds to shoot. So they go from 18 shots with 6 hits to 21 shots with 7 hits a game.

For Lootas. 15 Lootas average 30 shots a turn which is 5 rolls of a 6 on average which means 2 extra hits total. So they go from 10 hits to 12, again, not exactly game breaking or making a unit go from trash to useful.

True but there's also Killa Kan'ts and Buggies with twin rokkits but I don't expect very much from those. For obvious reasons.

 warhead01 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Y'know the dakkax3 rule is really going to help armies focused on rokkits, kustom-mega, and lootas a lot more than just a bunch of shootas. Getting another shot with a rokkit is a lot more appealing than just another shoota shot.

This could lead to some interesting army builds down the road, granted they make those high-damage weapons more worthwhile.

Except that units that take rokkitz can't take them in large numbers except for TankBustas. Your average Mob of boyz with 3 rokkitz will get exactly 3 extra shots a game which means 1 extra hit a game, that is if every turn they fire and they survive all 6 rounds to shoot. So they go from 18 shots with 6 hits to 21 shots with 7 hits a game.

For Lootas. 15 Lootas average 30 shots a turn which is 5 rolls of a 6 on average which means 2 extra hits total. So they go from 10 hits to 12, again, not exactly game breaking or making a unit go from trash to useful.

True but there's also Killa Kan'ts and Buggies with twin rokkits but I don't expect very much from those. For obvious reasons.

I wish Kanz came with twin rokkits, they only come with rokkit launchas, the single shot kind.

People keep denegrating low quantity weapons. But there's always that chance- and that's what the D3 is gonna boost. Might be the difference between destroying a Rhino in one volley vs. having it advance for another round- or taking down a Predator before it gets that second shot off, or knocking down that one Marine who's hanging on to an objective.

It's not going to change whether or not we wipe a unit in a single go all the time, but it's going to change what might work for smaller-scale shooting, I think.

 Grimskul wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Y'know the dakkax3 rule is really going to help armies focused on rokkits, kustom-mega, and lootas a lot more than just a bunch of shootas. Getting another shot with a rokkit is a lot more appealing than just another shoota shot.

This could lead to some interesting army builds down the road, granted they make those high-damage weapons more worthwhile.

Except that units that take rokkitz can't take them in large numbers except for TankBustas. Your average Mob of boyz with 3 rokkitz will get exactly 3 extra shots a game which means 1 extra hit a game, that is if every turn they fire and they survive all 6 rounds to shoot. So they go from 18 shots with 6 hits to 21 shots with 7 hits a game.

For Lootas. 15 Lootas average 30 shots a turn which is 5 rolls of a 6 on average which means 2 extra hits total. So they go from 10 hits to 12, again, not exactly game breaking or making a unit go from trash to useful.

True but there's also Killa Kan'ts and Buggies with twin rokkits but I don't expect very much from those. For obvious reasons.

I wish Kanz came with twin rokkits, they only come with rokkit launchas, the single shot kind.

I wish kanz had the ability to ditch the Klaw and grab a 2nd ranged. Or vice versa. 12 rockit units hitting on bs4 with DDD.

yes, killakans only have the one roket (no twinlinked)....and it will most likely stay that way (since there is no twinlinked won in the kit unless they do a cool upgrade sprue that covers all ork vehicles), but i might be able to see them give the kans the chance to swap guns for the claw since the kit comes with enough gun bits to get rid of all the claws (like a meganob sqaud getting double buzzsaws).

im hopeful for good price decreases on all of our vehicles. GW has kept an eye on all these tournaments with ork green tides and will either do 2 things.
1:nerf boyz and bring them in line with the rest of the codex (they are not that stupid to do that despite what many have said)
2:buff everything else to compete with boyz. they know we have large collections of boyz, if they want us to buy more minis they will buff/pts decrease the vehicle range (especially since all our announced new kits are all vehicles, this is the vehicle edition for orks, just wait and see)

my hope is for a full on dreddmob, with 18 killakans,9 defdredds and maybe enough for a single gmorkanut in a 2000pt list (very wishfull thinking i know, but glorious to imagine.)

Anvildude wrote:
People keep denegrating low quantity weapons. But there's always that chance- and that's what the D3 is gonna boost. Might be the difference between destroying a Rhino in one volley vs. having it advance for another round- or taking down a Predator before it gets that second shot off, or knocking down that one Marine who's hanging on to an objective.

It's not going to change whether or not we wipe a unit in a single go all the time, but it's going to change what might work for smaller-scale shooting, I think.

This. Even if the averages don't seem impressive, an extra rokkit hit makes a huge difference when it happens. An extra 3 damage taken of any vehicle or monster is a big deal.

geargutz wrote:
... (they are not that stupid to do that despite what many have said)

Ah, the naivety of youth

It won't last here on Dakka

I once thought as you did. Then GW took away the abilities of the Tau to split fire when the FAQ for 6th edition (pre-6th codex) came out. Now I put nothing past the incompetence of their design team.

Oi youz Gits! Had my first game with Orks this past weekend and though I lost it was a blast! Highlight was my Stompa after rampaging through my Dark Angel opponents Army for a few turns was destroyed by those crazy mace wielding Knights and the explosion wiped out even more! I had so much fun playing with it in fact that outside of the new models coming out I'm looking at potentially doing an Ork "Walker" themed army as my first force. I have a few questions about that and a list implant to use next weekend and would appreciate some feedback:

Question 1: The Morkanauts Kustom Force Field, I know the invulnerable save applies to units holy within 9 inches but does it also apply to the Morkanaut itself?

Question 2: Killa Kans, what's the best way to equip them and why?

Question 3: I eventually want to convert up some Meka Dreads, any idea what base size they are on?

Other than that here is the list that I'm thinking about taking next weekend, unless feedback from you guys changes it.

SPEARHEAD:

HQ:

-Big Mek

HEAVY SUPPORT:

-x5 Killa Kans
*w/ Grotzookas

-x5 Killa Kans
*w/ Grotzookas

-x5 Killa Kans
*w/ Rokkit Launchas

-x3 Morkanauts
*w/ Kustom Force Fields

TOTAL ARMY: 2000 POINTS

Tactics here are pretty simple, I March up the board under the cover of a 5+ invulnerable save blasting everything that gets in my way and then chopping it to pieces.

Q1: Is the morkanaut fully within 9" itself? Yes. Thus it applies.
Q2: I'm fan of rokkits and plasma weapon. Use the BS4+ to provide some oomph. Though there's point to keeping them cheap with big shoota. They die when opponent says "boo"

For list I would put KFF to big mek if not already and change 1-2 morkanauts to gorkanauts. Gorkanauts are lot better and 2-3 KFF's should cover you anyway. Also grotzookas suck for killa kans alas.

tneva82 wrote:
Q1: Is the morkanaut fully within 9" itself? Yes. Thus it applies.
Q2: I'm fan of rokkits and plasma weapon. Use the BS4+ to provide some oomph. Though there's point to keeping them cheap with big shoota. They die when opponent says "boo"

For list I would put KFF to big mek if not already and change 1-2 morkanauts to gorkanauts. Gorkanauts are lot better and 2-3 KFF's should cover you anyway. Also grotzookas suck for killa kans alas.

Thanks for the tips, out of curiosity any thought or knowledge about question 3? Forgot to add it in the initial post.

No idea. FW page none and shows it baseless so I wouldn't be surprised if it's without base which actually is GOOD as that makes it instantly more powerful. If it doesn't come with base then giving it base is nerfing it voluntarily.

 gmaleron wrote:
Question 1: The Morkanauts Kustom Force Field, I know the invulnerable save applies to units holy within 9 inches but does it also apply to the Morkanaut itself?

Yes. The GW community team answered this fittingly with "You are usually within 9" of yourself".

Question 2: Killa Kans, what's the best way to equip them and why?

Rokkits or KMB. You only get one weapon, so the more damage it does, the better.
Skorchas are wasting the 4+ BS, grotzookas are heavy and thus get a penalty for moving, big shootas in general are not worth attaching them to a small robot whose only strength is shooting.

Question 3: I eventually want to convert up some Meka Dreads, any idea what base size they are on?

Meka Dreads are not supplied with a base.

mhalko1 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Y'know the dakkax3 rule is really going to help armies focused on rokkits, kustom-mega, and lootas a lot more than just a bunch of shootas. Getting another shot with a rokkit is a lot more appealing than just another shoota shot.

This could lead to some interesting army builds down the road, granted they make those high-damage weapons more worthwhile.

Except that units that take rokkitz can't take them in large numbers except for TankBustas. Your average Mob of boyz with 3 rokkitz will get exactly 3 extra shots a game which means 1 extra hit a game, that is if every turn they fire and they survive all 6 rounds to shoot. So they go from 18 shots with 6 hits to 21 shots with 7 hits a game.

For Lootas. 15 Lootas average 30 shots a turn which is 5 rolls of a 6 on average which means 2 extra hits total. So they go from 10 hits to 12, again, not exactly game breaking or making a unit go from trash to useful.

True but there's also Killa Kan'ts and Buggies with twin rokkits but I don't expect very much from those. For obvious reasons.

I wish Kanz came with twin rokkits, they only come with rokkit launchas, the single shot kind.

I wish kanz had the ability to ditch the Klaw and grab a 2nd ranged. Or vice versa. 12 rockit units hitting on bs4 with DDD.

First, sorry if my post was confusing. Yes I know Kans don't get twin rokkits.
I would love it if they did as well.

Second. I might like scrapping the arm for a second ranged weapon as well! I'd wish for that on Deff Dreads for years.

Between the two options I would rather a twin rokkit and a Kan Klaw. But maybe if it were 2 twin rokkits. Tough call.

In the how to fix orks thread I suggested upping all rokkits-style weapons' shots to mirror the number of rokkits actually shown on the model: Kopta Rokkits get Assault 4, Kanz and deff dreads get a new "Rokkit Launcha Arm" with Assault 3.

You still would have to pay for 3 rokkits, but the price per rokkit in your army would go down since you only need one kan per three rokkits.

I know the codex is around the corner and all...

But as of now- how crazy is it to run Orks without spamming basic Boyz?

I'm looking at building to around 1,500pts while trying to keep the model count relatively low as I can (without going all Killa Kanz etc.).

I'm a huge fan of Nob models but the thought of having to paint hundreds of troop Boyz just puts me off so bad.... (recently finished 2k points of Nids- it was not fun painting hordes :( )

Any ideas where I could possibly focus the army on?
Doesn't have to super competitive but would be nice if it could still hold its own in casuals etc.